EV Digest 6006
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: air suspension - Roland, got your ears on?
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this month
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Cruise control?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Jiffy lube...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: What is the future of Li BMS?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Odd size batteries as buddy pairs.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EVDL breaks old record for number of posts per day!
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: lee's emeter companion?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) DWP has 74 RAV4-EV lease returns
by doug korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science
this month
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 9Electric Progress Report -- Ring Roller
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: OT fiberglass questions
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Cruise control?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) article: Mitsubishi unveils new electric car prototype
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) article: Advanced Battery Technologies, Inc. Signs Agreement With
Pioneering US Electric Car Developer Left Coast Conversions, Inc.
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: $25,000 Performance Car?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) #22
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I put air bags on my Isuzu conversion on the rear springs. They are like an
overload spring along with the original springs. I do not have an air pump.
I just have a fitting on top of each bag like a tire valve and fill each bag
to 50 lbs of air to hold up the 16 batteries mounted in the rear. I have
$50 into this system and it works great.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDLposts" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:43 AM
Subject: air suspension - Roland, got your ears on?
I've lowered the fiero back to the ground, and noted the differences in
ride height, and I've contacted a couple of spring vendors for quotes, but
I was still wondering about using an air system.
I was wondering if Roland could give more details of his air suspension
system, including the vendor, and whether it was a selection from stock
products or of it had to be custom engineered.
I know these systems allow the adjustment of ride height, but I was
wondering more about the ride and handling. How is that?
Did you add this to a stock El Camino suspension, or are you using units
that replace the stock springs and shocks?
Also, how much space do the pump and valving take up?
Lastly, how much did it cost?
Also, if anyone else uses an air system, please let us know the details.
Thanks!!!
PS I wound up with 19 batteries for 228V. For now at least. Need to
reassemble the interior and instrumentation to be able to move the car,
though. Z1K and Warp 9" with stock 4 speed.
David Brandt
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.2/471 - Release Date: 10/10/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Think it is electrivette.com without the c
I just saw this in the magazine.
He used two independent electric motors - one on each rear wheel with no
transmission. Controls them with a joystick.
Lead acid batteries.
Looks good and is inexpensive.
Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
month
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Sure - the cruise control can only let the controller
do what it already does, so in a DC setup w/o regen, the
cruise can only keep the speed up, but it cannot cause
the controller to brake, only to shut off and coast.
In case you have a mechanical (or electrical) way of
braking, like engaging a generator as Roland does or an
A/C pump on the motor shaft then this can be used to
apply a braking force.
Whatever is available to control in yoru EV can be controlled
but it it ain't there, it can't be influenced by the cruise
control!
Regen braking is great, independent of having cruise control
or not.
BTW in some DC setups it is trivially easy to get regen when
you are willing to downshift before descending and you have
no problem with installing an extra diode that sends the
motor current to the batteries when the motor voltage is
higher than the battery voltage.
However, if your setup is maxing out the motor RPMs then you
are likely going to over-rev your motor when you want to
generate power back into your batteries, because the motor
voltage needs to be higher than the battery voltage. This
is not the case with all motor types, as Lee has pointed out
several times already.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cruise control?
Cor van de Water wrote:
> In SW this function is trivial,
> just keep motor RPM constantly to the set speed.
>
>
Could someone address my earlier post on this issue, regarding engine
breaking? In an EV, how would you keep the RPM's constant when you
wanted to slow the vehicle? If you just let up on the throttle as you
do in an ICE, the car will keep coasting for a long while, only
gradually slowing. If you're on a slight downgrade, the car will even
pick up speed. Wouldn't you need regen, or a mechanical equivalent to
slow the motor?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I laughed when the reporter called it a "new" scam. This is the oldest
and most common problem.
It's largely impractical to sue since it's difficult and expensive to
prove that your tranny fluid or fuel pump was not changed. Well, you
might bring in your second mechanic who swears that you had an old fuel
pump when you brought it to him. Generally he'd have to be in court
with you so you'd better pay him $75/hr for his time in court too. Then
they'll say he's not an "expert" witness... wait, no, they'll probably
just not bother to show up and lose by default. You get awarded all of
$150 for the fuel pump replacement, but then they'll probably just never
pay the judgement anyways.
When I bought my camper van I had the timing chain replaced since it was
at 100k miles and there was no record of it ever being done. I took it
to a small shop I felt I knew well. About 30k miles later BOOM my
vehicle died because a badly worn timing chain set slipped on me.
Circumstances suggest that they didn't ever do the work, but I can't
prove diddley.
Bottom line, I always do work myself unless it's completely
impractical. Or know enough to verify their work. I should have
checked the timing chain slack between the crankshaft and the
distributor rotor before and after the alleged replacement.
Danny
Cor van de Water wrote:
Well,
that should bring them a few new customers and
install trust in their organisation.
/sarcasm off
Seriously: 5 out of 9 repairs charged were never done?
They should be seeing a storm of lawsuits - in particular
if people had trouble with their car after going to them...
No wonder I like to service my cars myself and if it needs
to go in, I have the urge to stay with it to see the work
being done.
Good that EVs don't need an oil change, or fuel filter
or transmission ..... wait - the tranny may still need
its service.
Oh yes, that you can do yourself.
In fact, today I am going to pick up a Prius transaxle
gasket to replace its transaxle fluid and wipe down the
pan from the deposits of the first 35,000 miles
from the oil-splash lubricated and cooled motors and
torque converter.
(recommended after oil analysis on Prius_technical_stuff)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Rush
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Jiffy lube...
Hi all,
This was sent to me by a friend...
http://mfile.akamai.com/12924/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2006/0503/9152183.200k.asx
"The above site will open to a blank screen - just wait for the video to
load. NBC in California got some great shots on Jiffy Lube stores ripping
their customers off big time. I wouldn't drive past a Jiffy Lube let alone
let them work on my car! The information below is customer's complaints
about Jiffy Lube cheating them. Notice they come from all across America."
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
I am hesitating between using a dedicated E-meter
(or Lee's replacement) or displaying and integrating
the digital (serial) output from my controller in a
palmtop that I stick on the dash.
My motor controller can be programmed to spit out
- volts
- amps
- temp
- RPM
in one line of serial data, every second.
These are straightforward to measure and display. But amphours and
kilowatthours are a challenge, because the current varies over an
extremely wide range. If the current measurement circuit is accurate at
500 amps, it is likely to be inaccurate at 0.5 amps. Errors tend to
accumulate. If your current measurement circuit is off by just 0.1 amps
(a 0.02% error), then it accumulates a 2.4 amphour error per day.
Anything better than 0.1% accurate parts get extremely expensive.
So, most amphour and kilowatthour meters "cheat" -- they are designed to
ignore any current below some low value and treat it as if it were zero.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
You are right. It's not an EV control. But it proves the potential
success of people forging together some hardware to benefit the masses.
Yes, I agree. People can accomplish a lot when they work together.
BTW, all of your thermal, undervoltage etc concerns were addressed.
I don't see it. Are they depending on software in the Dalf to provide
over/under voltage, current limit, and thermal protection?
We need to design our own. But I fear we do not have the cohesiveness
to make an open source project work.
That does appear to be the case.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
Certainly for NiMH, just measuring the cell temperature and report
it to a central charger controller would be sufficient.
That tells you that there is a balancing issue. What does your system
then to do correct the imbalance? If it relies on deliberate
overcharging to do it, then you damage your best batteries to bring up
the weaker ones. If it relies on deliberately discharging higher-charged
cells with resistors, then you limit your range to the capacity of the
weakest cells.
I recommend using temp to stop charging for R/C packs
That works well for small battery packs. It becomes difficult with large
packs, because there is a long time delay to sense a cell's temperature,
and there are strong interactions between cells (you can't tell if a
particular cell made the heat, or one of its neighbors is doing it).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Can you mix batteries in buddy pairs and in effect make a new battery? Lets
say a 10ah & a 26ah battery in a pair. Then for 48v lets say use four of
these buddy pairs. Will the little battery get creamed or does the buddy
pair act as a new battery?
Yes. The buddy pair will act as a new battery, with characteristics
somewhere in between those of its component parts. Though, it
complicates the task of charging, balancing, and indicating their states
of charge.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11 Oct 2006 at 1:46, Nathaniel Olsen wrote:
> > Sadist thing is to see the msgs from folks signing off the EVDL,
> > `cause of being swamped w/EV msg traffic.
>
> I hope you mean "saddest" because I'd rather not have any more
> sadists on this list. ;-)
:)
> Actually, neither heavy traffic nor signoffs is anything new. The EV
> list has always had relatively heavy traffic.
Per the Yahoo archive home page, average monthly number of messages:
2006 2286 (9 months)
2005 2075
2004 1503
2003 1427 (9 months)
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
the controller only outputs this data when in motoring mode,
in my case around 2x 20 min per day. So the error would be
limited to around 0.1 Ah per day. Heck, even 1 Ah is OK with
me as the SOC meter I have now is less accurate than a
fuel gauge ;-)
Charging is not done using the controller, so this data will
not be useful to measure charging efficiency or even charging
correctness, that's why I'd love to have an independent
instrument like an E-meter ;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lee's emeter companion?
Cor van de Water wrote:
> I am hesitating between using a dedicated E-meter
> (or Lee's replacement) or displaying and integrating
> the digital (serial) output from my controller in a
> palmtop that I stick on the dash.
> My motor controller can be programmed to spit out
> - volts
> - amps
> - temp
> - RPM
> in one line of serial data, every second.
These are straightforward to measure and display. But amphours and
kilowatthours are a challenge, because the current varies over an
extremely wide range. If the current measurement circuit is accurate at
500 amps, it is likely to be inaccurate at 0.5 amps. Errors tend to
accumulate. If your current measurement circuit is off by just 0.1 amps
(a 0.02% error), then it accumulates a 2.4 amphour error per day.
Anything better than 0.1% accurate parts get extremely expensive.
So, most amphour and kilowatthour meters "cheat" -- they are designed to
ignore any current below some low value and treat it as if it were zero.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
Los Angeles DWP has operations in 5 states, spreads from the Owens Valley to
Orange County, and has a special exemption written into Prop 218 to accomodate
its power.
LADWP has been returning fleet-leased Toyota RAV4-EV, placing them at the mercy
of:
TOYOTA POLICY ON LEASE RETURN RAV4-EV
"...When a customer does return a RAV4 EV that is in good condition, it will
continue to be put into service through community groups and our company fleet.
Because many are reaching the end of their sustainable life, we need to keep
close tabs on every car and we would not want to burden a customer with the
technical costs associated with an aging vehicle.
"...When these cars reach the end of their sustainable life, we feel we have a
responsibility to recycle certain materials and dispose of hazardous materials,
such as the battery pack, properly. Toyota has a rigorous process for retiring
the EVs that maximizes the recovery of recyclable components and minimizes the
exposure of substances of concern. For instance, all fluids and refrigerants
are removed, the battery is deactivated and sent to a certified battery
recycler, and the de-contented vehicle is then sent to a certified destruction
facility. All recyclable metals, plastics, fibers, glass and rubber are
separated for re-use...documented at our National Headquarters under file
#200610091351..."
The best fate for lease-returns is to be evaluated by Toyota: if "good", they
get sent to remote locations, such as Catalina Island, where ironically all
electric comes from diesel generators subsidized by the mainland ratepayers.
If they fail these unstated criteria, and eventually, they are dismantled,
crushed, and, ultimately, JUNKED.
Instead of losing these great cars, and the EV-95 Panasonnic NiMH batteries
that are irreplaceable since Chevron-Ovonyx-Cobasys-ENER-Texaco's legal action
against Toyota-Panasonic, we'd like to see the leases assumed by an EV-oriented
entity, and, ultimately, purchased for use by individual EV drivers. If, in
the fullness of time, they get scrapped, there are many parts on board that
might be of interest for EV converters or builders. Especially, the batteries.
Currently, Toyota wants to control all spare parts and the fate of these
vehicles. Once they are sold, as they should have been originally, their
disposition is up to their owners. For some reason, Toyota hates this idea,
and is bitterly opposed to letting the vehicles go on the open market.
Next Tuesday, Oct. 17, at 1:30 PM, the LADWP Board has asked Staff to report on
why they were returning these vehicles (Staff stated that they don't want them,
they no longer have a use for them) and to report on the condition of them, so
that the Board can decide whether they should cherry-pick the "good ones" and
dispose of the rest.
Here is the letter I'm sending out:
Los Angeles Dept. of Water and Power
Board of Commissioners
Barbara Moschos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
TEL 213-367-1356, FAX 213-367-1423
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE TO THE COMMISSIONERS
RE: 74 fleet lease-return Toyota RAV4-EV
Dear Board of Commissioners,
These 74 RAV4-EV are the last of the fleet of EVs once used by DWP. They were
being returned routinely to Toyota, the current batch of 24 had been slated to
be returned on Sept. 30.
Thank you for asking Staff to report on the condition of the 74 RAV4-EV
currently leased by DWP. Your timely intervention has so far saved these
irreplaceable clean cars from being returned to Toyota and an uncertain fate --
either donated to far away agencies, used at Toyota plants, or, usually,
dismantled and demolished. At the next meeting, a chilling account from Toyota
will be read about how Toyota strips and crushes these much-wanted clean
Electric cars.
But these RAV4-EV are not wanted by DWP Staff. Testimony by Staff at the last
meeting indicates that these RAV4-EV no longer meet Staff needs. At the next
meeting, members of the public plan to commit enough resources to guarantee
lease payments and to purchase all the RAV4-EV.
The Board will be asked to transfer the leases to an entity set up for that
purpose. This request will be in accordance with Staff testimony that with the
limited range and maintenance, the RAV4-EV are a cost item, and were replaced
by rental cars and by a recent purchase of 90 Prius non-plug-in hybrid vehicles.
We propose to take that burden from DWP.
After we assume the leases, we will use the existing precedent and request that
Toyota sell them to us at the established residual value of approximately
$22,000 each. Whether this is successful or not is our problem, not DWP.
We ask for your cooperation in transferring the leases from Toyota to us,
and/or in facilitating the conversion of these leases to purchases, a precedent
set by Toyota and other lease-purchasers in the past.
Thank you very much,
Doug Korthof
1020 Mar Vista
Seal Beach, CA 90740-5842
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cell phone 714-496-1567
cc. many
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
Think it is electrivette.com without the c
I just saw this in the magazine.
He used two independent electric motors - one on each rear wheel with
no transmission. Controls them with a joystick.
Lead acid batteries.
Looks good and is inexpensive.
Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this month
Oops!
The proper URL is http://www.electricevette.com/
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm definitely taking the scenic route on my conversion. Instead of just buying
an adaptor, I bought a lathe/mill and welder, and have been learning to use
them. I needed to roll a strip of steel into a hoop for my spacer. A friend
rolled one for me, but because of his ring roller's design, it warped it. So I
decided to build my own ring roller. It was a great experience, I learned alot,
and it actually works! The first job I did on it was to gently curve roll bar
pads to fit curved fenderwells (for another car, not the 9Electric). Soon it
will be used to make my motor adaptor spacer.
http://9electric.evforge.net/Tools/ringroller/
Thinking EV conversion businesswise for a moment, a tool like this could be a
step towards making adaptors more inexpensively.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are two types of fiberglass chopped glass matrix and cloth.
When done correctly the cloth is hard to see as the hard resin matches
it almostly perfectly in transparency and color.
It's like plastic floating in clear plastic.
Matrix is stronger in most directions than cloth
except along the weave lines of cloth.
Cloth is usally overlayed in crossing layers to give it more
omnidirectional strength.
Matrix is usually used for small repairs.
It is heavier per volume than cloth because it has more irregular
cavities to hold more resin. The best cloth construction uses giant
vacuum bags to squeeze as much resin as possible out of the cloth before
it hardens.
You get no strength from resin, only from cloth or matrix. Therefore all
repairs or multiple parts must overlap their cloth or matrix.
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 4:37 pm, Phil Marino wrote:
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: OT fiberglass questions
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:15:16 -0500
It's hard for me to picture the exact circumstances, I've never even
seen a fiberglass I-beam before.
Fiberglass ladders have side rails that are I-beams. Maybe these are
similar.
Those always seemed to me to made with chopped fiber and not cloth.
They also look like they're mostly resin, and not much glass, but it's
hard to tell by just looking. They must have good strength.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes but nimhd aren't available for cars so there is no choice correct?
.
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 4:37 pm, Danny Miller wrote:
There are considerable problems in balancing the charge with large
quantities of NiMH or Li-Ion batteries.
The problem still exists whether you put them in parallel before
putting them in series, or have a bunch of series strings tied in
parallel.
You'd think that if you wired 8 batteries in parallel that they'd
charge and discharge the same. Lead-acid can generally be charged this
way but NiMH can develop charge balance problems that cannot be
resolved without electrically separating the batteries or dumping
enough extra charge into it to get the weaker cell(s) back up, at the
expense of overcharging the full cells (which is bad news).
Also it's worthy to note that, due to the scale of the problem, you'd
need so many small batteries that the cost is still incredibly high.
It may be more expensive than working with large cells even before you
look at how much expense is involved in interconnecting thousands of
cells.
Danny
Anybody run the numbers on assembling an ev from small nickal metal
hydrides?
As in consumer electronic equipment types? Or is that what you are
doing?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dennis,
Yes, you'd need either regen or somehow apply mechanical brakes
to slow you down.
With off-throttle regen capable controllers (like Siemens) this
would be trivial. On a given gear maintaining the speed is the same
as maintaining RPM. So you compare motor RPM to a wheel RPM
and generate analog signal proportional to the ratio of the two.
Feed this (filtered) to the throttle input and viola - you're cruisin'.
Victor
Could someone address my earlier post on this issue, regarding engine
breaking? In an EV, how would you keep the RPM's constant when you
wanted to slow the vehicle? If you just let up on the throttle as you
do in an ICE, the car will keep coasting for a long while, only
gradually slowing. If you're on a slight downgrade, the car will even
pick up speed. Wouldn't you need regen, or a mechanical equivalent to
slow the motor?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Japan only for now, but we can hope:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15224875/
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe Gadget can let us in a little on what he's up to:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?Feed=MW&Date=20061011&ID=6093901
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 11, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor wrote:
If you adjust for Peukert, you:
a) need to know exactly what it is for your battery
b) need to make adjustment to it based on the temp and age
else it throws one more variable in the mix.
(a) is absolutely true. Just like any other parameter that the guage
requires that quantify your battery to it (capacity, capacity tempco,
etc.), the challenge is how the user will figure out what the correct
value is for their particular battery. The bottom line is that while
the guage will work more accurately with values that are 'close' than
it
will with none at all. With flooded PbA, it is certainly going to
result in a more useful fuel guage if the Peukert exponent is specifed
as a ballpark guess of 1.2 when the acutal value happens to be
somewhere
between 1.15 and 1.25 than to have no Peukert correction at all (1.0).
(b) is probably not a factor in real world use.
[snip]
I disagree. It seems I disagree with both of you - a good battery
"fuel" gauge needs to at least compensate for temperature. I would be
more interested in getting age and temperature compensation in ah
capacity than Peukert's compensation. I can pretty well figure that a
new, healthy, Optima can dish out 35 ah at EV current levels. I can use
that number so the electron gauge reads empty after I use 35 of the
(C20 rate) 55 ah.
On the other hand, plenty of EVers (especially new ones) have gotten in
trouble because they still rely on their e-meter when the battery ages.
Being able to enter an available capacity and a cycle life to 80%
capacity would be useful. The software would be a bit involved as
capacity starts at around 80%, rises to 100% after break in, then stays
at 100% for around 1/2 the life, then starts falling toward 80% at the
end of life (and even better, consider what extended time without the
pack seeing EV driving currents can do for the next few drives.)
Temperature is another area, more important IMHO, where a number of new
EVers get into trouble. We see help requests from these new members
every fall and winter. With a temp probe (to be located in the coldest
battery box) and the ability to set the rate of capacity change with
temperature this could be reflected in the electron gauge.
In the end, I would really like a gauge that just tells me ah removed.
Ah by itself doesn't make a good battery "fuel" gauge, but it is
important data for the more experienced EVer. In fact, is there such a
thing as a simple amp hour counter? I'm sure they exist, but I haven't
found one I could add to my buggy that didn't cost more than an
e-meter.
There are a number of list members working on great integrated
solutions. The thing is - every EV is different. I wish there where
more single solution items available. Things like Rudman Regs, John
Lussmyer's battery monitors (not currently available due to fire), and
simple amp hour counters (also like commonly available volt meters, amp
meters and tachometers.) I'm gearing up to build another EV and I find
the constant 'feature creep' of available products disappointing.
Sorry,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jack, John, all
Hey Jack, I don't think John was trying to be brutal here, just brutally
honest 8^)
Having worked with John on more than just the Siamese8, I know that the guy
knows his stuff (I'm not implying you don't either,K). There have been a
number of times that I've needed answers to what and how a particular motor
would work for a project. Guess who I call? I call Jack, LMAO, just kidding,
I call Wayland, and he's always on the money. I doubt there are any here that
can augue against Johns long term goal to teaching and preaching about EV's and
his status as a true pioneer. With that said, he's had his share of failures
I'm sure, and I believe his intensions are to keep people from building
something that will not at least meet the intended goal. If he didn't care he
wouldn't have posted anything. I in fact called John today to tell him that
EVen my butt hurt from his last post, LMAO!
Being someone who gets to work with a lot of EV'ers it was early on that I
realized that EVeryone has a different view of what they want, and what they
can afford. As a new EV'er myself it is sometimes hard to get "facts" even
here at the list as there are different camps on almost every topic (and they
all think, I mean "know" their right). Although I always take a grain of salt
with any advise I get (from anyone) John has proven himself someone I would
call my best adviser 8^ ) (oh he pays in more than one way for the motor work
I did for him, LMAO)
I think the thing that I was able to use as a reference was Matt Grahams car
with twin Warp9's and it's times, and power output, vs. the intended AC motor,
pretty hard to augue against.
Now I think I've seen a couple of references as to whether WZ could do a good
autocross run. Having been given a few rides in it, it ain't "just" a point
and shoot car, although it can be a bit hairy when Tim stabs it to the floor on
a corner 8^o Be fun if nothing else to watch something burnout over 90 percent
of the course even if not the best time of the day 8^ )
Anyway as for me, I've just so digging the whole EV thing and I hate it any
time there is strife on the list (or what even appears to be strife to a new
listee). Anyway I guess I've said my peace.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
,,Hi Number 22 for a conversion just made it to our shop, we have 2 in there
now, one almost finished. one 1/2 way done. So it will sit out side till next
week when we can start on it,,Its much better building them than talking about
tail gates or tail lights.
LOL LOL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
OK Victor,
Now you're denying the importance of Peukert correction.
Have it your way.
I didn't deny importance of it. I said, it is meaningless
because the range will be shown all over place, corrected
or not. It only works relatively well for steady driving.
Indeed I do sometimes take the freeway, sometimes take
surface roads, whatever I feel or need and speed and range
do differ a lot.
Sometimes I may have a hard time getting 15 kWh from my
batteries, sometimes I may get close to 20 kWh from them.
(They are 34 kWh at 20h rate).
So you're asking e-meter to predict your intended driving
pattern and aggressiveness and tell you how far you will go
before you even stared. Good luck.
I would sure like to have a gauge that says '0' when I should
stop driving. I can see the gauge move towards that point
and it will move faster when I drive faster, slower otherwise.
That is exactly the same as what happens in a gas car, so any
driver will be able to use this gauge (!)
He does not need to know and he does not care that the actual
"tank" can go from 20 to 15 kWh dependent on his driving,
that I agree with.
But everyone likes to know when to stop and to have an
estimate how far they still can go.
If the car stops with the gauge at 1/4 full, you have a problem.
Sure. Correction to it according to you is just make gauge
fall like a rock in last 5 min (because driver chose
to get on freeway at 75 MPH) so it shows exactly zero
when the car stops dead. Great help, now e-meter and car
behavior agree with each other.
Well - you say that you do not have a problem, but that is
because you do not manufacture cars for others.
I do neither, but I would not want to be one with a gauge
that has such a characteristic, because I do not like to deal
with unhappy customers.
Don't overestimate the battery capacity and you'll be OK.
If you have 20 kWh pack your meter must say you have
*at least* 10 kW, and how much more really depends
on your intentions. Then you won't get stuck.
My current pack is 30 kWh (I believe, never pushed
it to find out). My daily commute is ~5 kWh. On a
freeway it would be 7 perhaps kWh, fine. Why do I care?
Only if you undersize your pack so that can't survive
without last Wh out of it, prediction if you can make it
home becomes important. But e-meter can't fix bad pack
design. If you have no idea how you will be driving tomorrow,
get larger pack to accommodate worst case. Or, drive as
usual, so it's not an issue.
So yes - I recommend to have a Peukert (or other inefficiency)
implemented in the Ah/kWh meter and indeed I do like the
functionality of the E-meter.
For Joe Average, I would display the values from the E-meter
in a format that resembles the dash indicator of the particular
car, often just an Empty - 1/4 - 1/2 - 3/4 - Full scale.
YMMV (your gauge too)
Settled :-) Design a gadget predicting average Joe's driving
pattern, and the rest will be easy.
Not an average Joe - Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lee's emeter companion?
Cor,
Your reply just tells me that you don't know how to
estimate capacity of your battery in a first place.
If you tell customer he has 20 gal fuel tank and he
gets stuck running out of fuel after spending
15 gallons, he will be unhappy as well.
Note, that fuel consumption rate works accurately,
just initial capacity was assumed wrong.
Same here. BRUSA Wh meter works VERY accurately.
If you assume you have 20 kWh and you indeed
have 15kWh (at the rate you consume normally,
in average), it has nothing to do with
consumption measurement device.
I know, it's 15kW at higher speeds and 20 kWh
at lower, and the difference *can be* compensated
for by Peukert. But normally average people
don't drive slow all day today and fast all day
tomorrow. Experience showed that average usage
is pretty even, so actual capacity *at that average
rate* in kWh can also be estimated good enough.
Yes, if you happen to drive super fast or tow
something, for such trip real battery capacity
assumption *you* make will be wrong, but it is
your ignorance problem, not Wh counter's.
Again, Wh counter just counts Wh.
As I said, high speed driving increases gas
fuel consumption per mile as well, so
you won't quite cover the same amount of
miles driving at 75mph as you wood at 35 mph,
(so, effectively, your fuel tank is smaller
at high speeds) but this doesn't bother you,
does it? ICE fuel gauge has no adjustment for
poorer fuel efficiency. It sure not as pronounced
as shrinkage of the EV battery, but the principle
stands. If *you know* your tank is smaller
if you drive faster, why complain later that
Wh meter didn't warn you?
The job of Wh meter is to measure Wh.
If you want it also to do report degree of
shrinkage of your "fuel tank" you implement
Peukert. But then, when you press accelerator
it reports that you can go 15 miles. Ease
on the pedal, and it reports 25 miles available.
Go up hill, and it reports 5 miles available.
All over place. Having such reports is worse
and more confusing than just knowing Wh spent.
This is why it is not implemented by BRUSA.
But, I have no issues with someone not
liking it. Just get an e-meter then.
Victor
Cor van de Water wrote:
Victor,
You are not addressing the issue.
Without Peukert correction the "fuel gauge"
can read 1/4 full when your batteries are empty,
so you are guaranteeing that a newbie EVer is
going to hurt his pack big time.
This has nothing to do with reading in miles or %
or whatever you want to calibrate your fuel gauge in,
simply the fact that you can take out no more than
15 kWh after you put in 20 kWh (for example) so if
you blindly rely on a fuel gauge counting down the
energy you put in while taking it out to show how
far you would be able to go, you are going to get
stuck at 3/4 the range that you were expecting,
unless you do correct for Peukert and other
inefficiencies.
I know that Peukert is only valid for lead, but
other chemistries are also inefficient, so you
should correct for that as well, only differently.
The fact that this feature is not implemented in
the Brusa tells me that they rather ignored the
problem or received feedback from the wrong people
because when I as a lay person get an indication
gauge and it does not register reliably and may
cause me to run out of fuel while it still
indicates I should have 1/4 capacity left, then I
do not trust that gauge after that any more.
And I already cause a lot of damage (running the
pack too low, possibly reversing cells and in
general I would consider how I could get my damage
back from the people that give me a digitally
accurate indicator and then have it misrepresent
the information so badly.
I would not at all be pleased with a Brusa meter.
Count me out.
Thanks for the warning.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lee's emeter companion?
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
You really should add it, especially for lead-acid packs. The single
most useful number it can provide is State of Charge. Without the
Peukert correction, simple amphour or watthour data is all but useless.
Gee, I didn't realize BRUSA Ah counter designers who purposely chose
not to implement Peukert correction (they easily could have) are such
an idiots who keep producing their useless device...
What is the purpose of the Brusa Ah counter? As an engineering
instrument so a technologically adept driver can measure what he's
doing? Or, is it meant as a "gas gauge" for typical ICE drivers?
The purpose of Ah counter (which is also Wh-counter) is to count
amp-hours (or Wh) spent as you drive. No different from the
gas fuel gauge which shows amount of fuel in gallons (at best)
or 1/2, 1/4 etc. at worst and you have to remember how many
gallons your tank is). ICE fuel gauges aren't calibrated
in miles and people has no issue with that. They learn
quickly to associate 1/2 with, say, 200 miles, or rather
with "I can fill up after tomorrow". Wh consumption is no
different. I know, Wh available depends much more on
how you drive EV than gas consumption in ICE, but the
principle stands: if I got 20 kWh pack and my counter shows
I spent 15 kWh obviously my pack is 1/4 full, e.g. 5 kWh left.
*Then* (and the process is no different than for ICE) I know
that with consumption of 5 miles per kWh, I can go about
5*5=25 more miles before drop dead, plain and simple.
If you adjust for Peukert, you:
a) need to know exactly what it is for your battery
b) need to make adjustment to it based on the temp and age
else it throws one more variable in the mix.
I'm not saying it is useless, but value added is very little
after I already know Wh spent.
Not to mention, that if you use non-lead acid battery,
Peukert adjustment becomes absolute useless feature.
BRUSA's decision not to include this adjustment was
based on the feed back from test drivers whether they
see it as a benefit. Most expressed desire to know
how much energy their vehicle spent and how far they
still can go. This has nothing to do with type of the
battery and adjustments for its characteristics; Ah meter
is just an energy consumption meter.
Only if you try to convert it to miles, adjustment
is needed, but as you said about average Joe, he
does not convert "1/2 of tank" to miles left.
So he wouldn't do it for Ah (Wh) consumed either.
I don't miss lack of Peukert adjustment at all
(well, I don't use lead battery, but when I did,
I didn't miss it either).
I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
Victor
--- End Message ---
