EV Digest 6008
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
month
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Pics of Xebra Pickup
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: E-volks now offering a series motor
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
month
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Request Porsche 914 power requirements at 65mph
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Better than a Xebra
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: melted a post (learned a lesson)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: lee's emeter companion?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science
this month
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science
this month
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: lee's emeter companion?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
electricvette.com doesn't exist. Have another url? Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 3:39 PM
Subject: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
month
> I just saw this in the magazine.
>
> He used two independent electric motors - one on each rear wheel with no
> transmission. Controls them with a joystick.
>
> Lead acid batteries.
>
> Looks good and is inexpensive.
>
> Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
> month
>
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.electricwheelsinc.com/zap_pickup.shtml
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I would expect that E-volks do not deliver the clutch,
> as it is usually already in the donor - as long as their
> motor mating allows for the clutch to stay in place....
>
> Another interesting feature is the open exhaust flange
> sticking out from under the motor.....
>
That's par for the course with these people - if you are going to
build from a kit, evidence points towards shopping with more
experienced suppliers, several of which are on this list.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Still doesn't work. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 3:59 PM
Subject: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
month
> Think it is electrivette.com without the c
>
> I just saw this in the magazine.
>
> He used two independent electric motors - one on each rear wheel with no
> transmission. Controls them with a joystick.
>
> Lead acid batteries.
>
> Looks good and is inexpensive.
>
> Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
> month
>
>
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
I understand your reasoning but it is backwards, this is
exactly the same for a gas car and people are used to
a gas gauge that says the tank is 1/4 full meaning that
they can drive a certain distance at a certain speed
and when they start driving fast, their range goes down
while if they drive careful their range increases.
They are not used to a gauge that shows 1/4 full and
suddenly their engine dies.
Nor is it common that the fuel gauge indicates the tank
to be empty when it still is half full.
So, what is wise to do to avoid this?
In my opinion:
include the Peukert correction in the fuel gauge reading.
If you drive easy, the gauge will go down slowly as the Peukert
correction will be low and you can extract more Ah from the
batteries. After 40 Ah the gauge may read 1/2 full.
When you are driving fast the fuel gauge may read 1/2 full
after extracting only 30 Ah as the Peukert correction will
add the increased loss in the batteries and see that you
have already used half the available energy.
The Ah can be displayed separately (and no Peukert correction
is messing with Ah or kWh measurements if that is what you
though I suggested), I simply intend to have a fuel gauge
that show 1/2 when the battery has an estimated amount
of fuel equal to the used amount of fuel.
NOTE: no units, just a percentage of full!
When the driver starts to drive fast, the Peukert correction
will be larger, so the available remaining energy will be
'burned' even quicker than the actual driving will consume
energy due to the increased losses in the battery.
This does not give a sudden plummeting fuel gauge, just that it
starts descending at a faster rate, as you would expect when you
start racing - still no difference with a gas car.
(The gauge does not estimate the Peukert correction and correct
suddenly at the end, as the Peukert correction is INSTANTLY
added to the consumption and therefore the meter is moving at
a constant rate when you are driving at a constant rate, the
speed of descent determined by the instantaneous consumption
PLUS the Peukert (or inefficiency) correction.
If you estimate that you have 1/2 gallon left in a gas car and
it gets 20 MPG then you know you need to drive careful if the
gas station is 8 miles away. If you start racing you may not
make it. No gas car driver needs to be told such common things.
I want to see the readings in an EV to feel and act in the
same way. If there is a fuel gauge that can mean empty when
it shows only 3/4 energy used, that is confusing for everybody
except some of the EV techies on this list.
I hope I made myself clear this time, as I think our differences
are mainly a miscommunication or misunderstanding, not so much
a difference on the basic data, except maybe on the way the
data is presented in the form of a well known "fuel gauge".
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lee's emeter companion?
Cor van de Water wrote:
> OK Victor,
> Now you're denying the importance of Peukert correction.
> Have it your way.
I didn't deny importance of it. I said, it is meaningless
because the range will be shown all over place, corrected
or not. It only works relatively well for steady driving.
> Indeed I do sometimes take the freeway, sometimes take
> surface roads, whatever I feel or need and speed and range
> do differ a lot.
> Sometimes I may have a hard time getting 15 kWh from my
> batteries, sometimes I may get close to 20 kWh from them.
> (They are 34 kWh at 20h rate).
So you're asking e-meter to predict your intended driving
pattern and aggressiveness and tell you how far you will go
before you even stared. Good luck.
>
> I would sure like to have a gauge that says '0' when I should
> stop driving. I can see the gauge move towards that point
> and it will move faster when I drive faster, slower otherwise.
> That is exactly the same as what happens in a gas car, so any
> driver will be able to use this gauge (!)
> He does not need to know and he does not care that the actual
> "tank" can go from 20 to 15 kWh dependent on his driving,
> that I agree with.
> But everyone likes to know when to stop and to have an
> estimate how far they still can go.
> If the car stops with the gauge at 1/4 full, you have a problem.
Sure. Correction to it according to you is just make gauge
fall like a rock in last 5 min (because driver chose
to get on freeway at 75 MPH) so it shows exactly zero
when the car stops dead. Great help, now e-meter and car
behavior agree with each other.
>
> Well - you say that you do not have a problem, but that is
> because you do not manufacture cars for others.
> I do neither, but I would not want to be one with a gauge
> that has such a characteristic, because I do not like to deal
> with unhappy customers.
Don't overestimate the battery capacity and you'll be OK.
If you have 20 kWh pack your meter must say you have
*at least* 10 kW, and how much more really depends
on your intentions. Then you won't get stuck.
My current pack is 30 kWh (I believe, never pushed
it to find out). My daily commute is ~5 kWh. On a
freeway it would be 7 perhaps kWh, fine. Why do I care?
Only if you undersize your pack so that can't survive
without last Wh out of it, prediction if you can make it
home becomes important. But e-meter can't fix bad pack
design. If you have no idea how you will be driving tomorrow,
get larger pack to accommodate worst case. Or, drive as
usual, so it's not an issue.
> So yes - I recommend to have a Peukert (or other inefficiency)
> implemented in the Ah/kWh meter and indeed I do like the
> functionality of the E-meter.
> For Joe Average, I would display the values from the E-meter
> in a format that resembles the dash indicator of the particular
> car, often just an Empty - 1/4 - 1/2 - 3/4 - Full scale.
>
> YMMV (your gauge too)
Settled :-) Design a gadget predicting average Joe's driving
pattern, and the rest will be easy.
Not an average Joe - Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different.
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:58 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: lee's emeter companion?
>
>
> Cor,
>
> Your reply just tells me that you don't know how to
> estimate capacity of your battery in a first place.
>
> If you tell customer he has 20 gal fuel tank and he
> gets stuck running out of fuel after spending
> 15 gallons, he will be unhappy as well.
> Note, that fuel consumption rate works accurately,
> just initial capacity was assumed wrong.
> Same here. BRUSA Wh meter works VERY accurately.
> If you assume you have 20 kWh and you indeed
> have 15kWh (at the rate you consume normally,
> in average), it has nothing to do with
> consumption measurement device.
>
> I know, it's 15kW at higher speeds and 20 kWh
> at lower, and the difference *can be* compensated
> for by Peukert. But normally average people
> don't drive slow all day today and fast all day
> tomorrow. Experience showed that average usage
> is pretty even, so actual capacity *at that average
> rate* in kWh can also be estimated good enough.
>
> Yes, if you happen to drive super fast or tow
> something, for such trip real battery capacity
> assumption *you* make will be wrong, but it is
> your ignorance problem, not Wh counter's.
>
> Again, Wh counter just counts Wh.
>
> As I said, high speed driving increases gas
> fuel consumption per mile as well, so
> you won't quite cover the same amount of
> miles driving at 75mph as you wood at 35 mph,
> (so, effectively, your fuel tank is smaller
> at high speeds) but this doesn't bother you,
> does it? ICE fuel gauge has no adjustment for
> poorer fuel efficiency. It sure not as pronounced
> as shrinkage of the EV battery, but the principle
> stands. If *you know* your tank is smaller
> if you drive faster, why complain later that
> Wh meter didn't warn you?
>
> The job of Wh meter is to measure Wh.
> If you want it also to do report degree of
> shrinkage of your "fuel tank" you implement
> Peukert. But then, when you press accelerator
> it reports that you can go 15 miles. Ease
> on the pedal, and it reports 25 miles available.
> Go up hill, and it reports 5 miles available.
> All over place. Having such reports is worse
> and more confusing than just knowing Wh spent.
>
> This is why it is not implemented by BRUSA.
>
> But, I have no issues with someone not
> liking it. Just get an e-meter then.
>
> Victor
>
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
>> Victor,
>>
>> You are not addressing the issue.
>>
>> Without Peukert correction the "fuel gauge"
>> can read 1/4 full when your batteries are empty,
>> so you are guaranteeing that a newbie EVer is
>> going to hurt his pack big time.
>>
>> This has nothing to do with reading in miles or %
>> or whatever you want to calibrate your fuel gauge in,
>> simply the fact that you can take out no more than
>> 15 kWh after you put in 20 kWh (for example) so if
>> you blindly rely on a fuel gauge counting down the
>> energy you put in while taking it out to show how
>> far you would be able to go, you are going to get
>> stuck at 3/4 the range that you were expecting,
>> unless you do correct for Peukert and other
>> inefficiencies.
>> I know that Peukert is only valid for lead, but
>> other chemistries are also inefficient, so you
>> should correct for that as well, only differently.
>>
>> The fact that this feature is not implemented in
>> the Brusa tells me that they rather ignored the
>> problem or received feedback from the wrong people
>> because when I as a lay person get an indication
>> gauge and it does not register reliably and may
>> cause me to run out of fuel while it still
>> indicates I should have 1/4 capacity left, then I
>> do not trust that gauge after that any more.
>> And I already cause a lot of damage (running the
>> pack too low, possibly reversing cells and in
>> general I would consider how I could get my damage
>> back from the people that give me a digitally
>> accurate indicator and then have it misrepresent
>> the information so badly.
>> I would not at all be pleased with a Brusa meter.
>> Count me out.
>> Thanks for the warning.
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Systems Architect
>> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
>> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:08 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: lee's emeter companion?
>>
>>
>> Lee Hart wrote:
>>> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>>> Lee Hart wrote:
>>>>> You really should add it, especially for lead-acid packs. The single
>>>>> most useful number it can provide is State of Charge. Without the
>>>>> Peukert correction, simple amphour or watthour data is all but
useless.
>>>> Gee, I didn't realize BRUSA Ah counter designers who purposely chose
>>>> not to implement Peukert correction (they easily could have) are such
>>>> an idiots who keep producing their useless device...
>>> What is the purpose of the Brusa Ah counter? As an engineering
>>> instrument so a technologically adept driver can measure what he's
>>> doing? Or, is it meant as a "gas gauge" for typical ICE drivers?
>> The purpose of Ah counter (which is also Wh-counter) is to count
>> amp-hours (or Wh) spent as you drive. No different from the
>> gas fuel gauge which shows amount of fuel in gallons (at best)
>> or 1/2, 1/4 etc. at worst and you have to remember how many
>> gallons your tank is). ICE fuel gauges aren't calibrated
>> in miles and people has no issue with that. They learn
>> quickly to associate 1/2 with, say, 200 miles, or rather
>> with "I can fill up after tomorrow". Wh consumption is no
>> different. I know, Wh available depends much more on
>> how you drive EV than gas consumption in ICE, but the
>> principle stands: if I got 20 kWh pack and my counter shows
>> I spent 15 kWh obviously my pack is 1/4 full, e.g. 5 kWh left.
>> *Then* (and the process is no different than for ICE) I know
>> that with consumption of 5 miles per kWh, I can go about
>> 5*5=25 more miles before drop dead, plain and simple.
>>
>> If you adjust for Peukert, you:
>> a) need to know exactly what it is for your battery
>> b) need to make adjustment to it based on the temp and age
>> else it throws one more variable in the mix.
>>
>> I'm not saying it is useless, but value added is very little
>> after I already know Wh spent.
>>
>> Not to mention, that if you use non-lead acid battery,
>> Peukert adjustment becomes absolute useless feature.
>>
>> BRUSA's decision not to include this adjustment was
>> based on the feed back from test drivers whether they
>> see it as a benefit. Most expressed desire to know
>> how much energy their vehicle spent and how far they
>> still can go. This has nothing to do with type of the
>> battery and adjustments for its characteristics; Ah meter
>> is just an energy consumption meter.
>>
>> Only if you try to convert it to miles, adjustment
>> is needed, but as you said about average Joe, he
>> does not convert "1/2 of tank" to miles left.
>> So he wouldn't do it for Ah (Wh) consumed either.
>>
>> I don't miss lack of Peukert adjustment at all
>> (well, I don't use lead battery, but when I did,
>> I didn't miss it either).
>>
>> I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I doubt that your batteries don't sag at all when putting out 200
amps, so they probably sagged down to 110-115V.
I'd guestimate that you are using somewhere around 22-23kw.
Still doesn't answer the question about a 914's draw, but it's a
interesting datapoint. Thanks.
> Coming home today, in 3rd gear on a pretty flat section of the
> interstate, I was pulling about 200 amps going 65mph. My pack voltage
> is 120volts, and was pretty full at that point, the SOC meter was
> reading about 40-50%, but that was under load. With no load it was up
> in the 80-90% range.
>
> Does that help?
>
> And does that sound like the right amount of energy to go that fast?
> 24kw? (120volts*200amps).
>
> I have not done an alignment on my car yet, and the tires are pretty
> old, and inflated to what I think is about the max rating for the tire
> (40psi).
>
> Cor: Are you saying that at 60mph, you are only pulling 100amps on a 120v
> pack?
>
> On 10/10/06, England Nathan-r25543 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hello Chris,
>> When you give us the amps at speed numbers could you let us know
>> what you pack voltage sagged to and how far you had gone since charge as
>> well?
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dealer in Oregon will carry both Xebra and Keystone ...
http://www.electricwheelsinc.com/xebras.shtml
Are they different vehicles or just dif bodies ??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The propulsion is at least 150 kW, likely more as that is
a pretty old number from AC Propulsion.
divide 150000 by 6000 cells and we get 25 Watt per cell.
My guess is that a Lithium cell will sag to 3V or lower
under max load, so to get 25W it needs to deliver 25/3
or more than 8 Amps.
Where did you get the 2A number?
Was that during charging?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
The 18650 is the way to go. Springs and tubes if you can believe it. Each
cell never sees more than two amps. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
> I thought so. Plus with the chrysler patent blocking deployment in cars
> it seems homemade is the way to go.
>
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 2:33 pm, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > Exactly. For instance the Tzero & Tesla Roadster have each over 6000
> > batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
> >
> >
> >> Anybody run the numbers on assembling an ev from small nickal metal
> >> hydrides?
> >> As in consumer electronic equipment types? Or is that what you are
> >> doing?
> >>
> >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 8:41 am, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >> > I goofed on the weight & ah of their pack.
> >> >
> >> > But, by referring to capacity of Optima battery, you could get (in
> >> > theory)
> >> > a 50-cell pack (10s x 5p config) with 12V 45Ah at estimated weight
> >> > ~10Kg (22
> >> > pounds). Given a careful housing design, this pack could be
> >> discharged
> >> > at
> >> > 50A continuously, and be recharged at 3.6A per 10-cell sub-group.
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>;
> >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 8:11 AM
> >> > Subject: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> 3.85809 is the weight of one string( each cell is 175 gram) at 12v
> >> > equaling
> >> >> 9ah. Just multiply by the ah you need. It would be in units of
> >> >> 9ah. So
> >> > an
> >> >> Optima sized pack would be around 23 pounds & 54 ah. 60
> >> batteries. 20
> >> >> batteries or about 8 pounds for a BB 17 ah sized battery that is
> >> >> 18ah for
> >> >> the d cells. At 5 dollars per cell that is 300 per battery. At
> >> 10
> >> > dollars
> >> >> per cell that is 600 dollars or what you'd spend for a used
> >> Panasonic
> >> >> NiMh
> >> >> from a Rav4. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> >> >>
> >>
> >> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
> >> globalwarming and the melting poles.
> >>
> >> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
> >>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is exactly why I threw away 2 pre-made cables that
came with my truck - the resistance from lug to lug
(I _measured_ every cable that I made and every cable
that I had bought) was more than twice the resistance
that I expected based on the cable lenght.
One of the cables even was four times the expected
amount of milliOhms.
The insides of the copper lugs seemed not to be clean
and after applying force on the sides of the lug so it
opened up enough to pull the wire out, it showed that
the inside was oxidized before it was crimped.
All cables I made had cleaned lugs and Noalox on the
cables, so the corrosion should be minimized.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:01 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
Exactly. If the connection between your wire/cable isn't tight it's the
same a a loose post connection. The lug won't melt first just transfer the
heat. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
> Another thing you can do to keep you ahead of the curve is to use
> a non-reversible temperature sensing dot, such as the Celsi-Dot
> at omega.com. This has been discussed on the EVDL, so you might
> want to check the archives.
>
> You can have nicely tightened clamps on your posts, and you can
> still get a hot post, for whatever reason. The Celsi-Dot
> approach pointed out several of my posts that were getting hot,
> and from the test I ran at
>
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/batteries/battery_posts/voltage_drops/06090
2_post_voltage_drops.pdf,
> it is apparently defective cables, so I get to make up some new
> ones.
>
> Chuck
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:56 PM
> Subject: Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
>
>
> > I drove in the wrong gear and did the same thing...
> > USB was able to melt on a new post, but due to plastic
> > melting around it, always got acid vapor (corrosion)
> > around it just a smidge faster than all of the rest.
> > Would imagine trojan would want to claim the same.
> > Check with your distributor. It was $5 for me, but
> > that was 8 years ago.
> >
> > FWIW, you might consider Bellville washers. Mike
> > Brown at ElectroAuto sells them for dirt cheap, and
> > the goal is to maintain tight contact.
> > peace,
> >
> >
> > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Today was my first break down.
> > >
> > > I was 7 miles from home towards work, and upon
> > > accelerating at a traffic
> > > light lost motor power. I quickly pulled into the
> > > first available lot, and
> > > discovered one of my battery posts completely melted
> > > the post down to
> > > molten nothingness.
> > >
> > > I learned my lesson for sure. I should have watered
> > > my batteries 10 days
> > > ago, so would have naturally checked for loose
> > > connections at the same
> > > time.
> > >
> > > I was able to jumper past the battery in 40 minutes
> > > and get on my way. I
> > > won't have automatic charging (Zivan will overcharge
> > > a pack with one less
> > > battery) until I replace fix.
> > >
> > > ???QUESTIONS:???
> > >
> > > 1. Can a Trojan T-125 battery post be rebuilt?
> > > 2. If not, how can I get a similar (1 year old)
> > > battery?
> > > 3. If not, how should I order a new battery to have
> > > it match the others
> > > most closely
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2nd set of questions.
> > > In my vehicle, both battery post clamps and battery
> > > copper lugs are used.
> > > Today, I learned I should have long ago replaced the
> > > post clamp with copper
> > > lugs.
> > > However, I'm also baffled.
> > > battery post clamps have been around forever, and I
> > > doubt loosen in
> > > gasoline vehicle environments. So, why have I had
> > > trouble with this. It
> > > was fairly tight 2 months ago.
> > > I had problem with another clamp 5 months ago that
> > > partially melted a post
> > > (not too much), I caught it in time, so that it is
> > > really tight.
> > >
> > > ??Are clamps inferior to lugs, or is it just the
> > > installation that is
> > > inferior?
> > >
> > > For the rest of you, tighten your connections if you
> > > don't already.
> > > I learned the $100 way
> > >
> > > BTW. I've never been able to fix my gas car when it
> > > died. This is proof
> > > that this is the great technology!! (one that can be
> > > fixed by the average
> > > Joe)
> > >
> > > I'll keep you POSTED,
> > > Ben
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> > Learn more at:
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
> steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is indeed a big distinction between a gas car's
fuel gauge and an EV fuel gauge in that when you have regen
and you descend a long hill, your gauge should move upward
as you are putting more energy back into your pack, so the
available energy increases.
Without regen and during driving the gauge should never move
upwards though, it can move down at different speeds dependent
on the way you are driving.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: lee's emeter companion?
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> So your average (over many days if you will) driving
> pattern calls for 200Wh consumption in mixed freeway
> and slow speed driving. Thus this is the size of your
> fuel tank. YEs it will be smaller if you suddenly
> decide to run on freeway all day long, but a) it is
> out of ordinary, and b) you *know* you won't have as
> many Wh available as usual if you do that.
Ah, but that is the point, I think: the average person will not
understand that the size of their EV's tank varies depending on their
driving habits, and even if they do, they will not know by how much.
This variation is, however, something that software in a meter can
easily compute.
You've assumed an example to illustrate a situation where Peukert
correction may provide little benefit, however, I think the important
thing to note is that the *worst* case is that including the correction
provides little benefit in certain situations, but in many other
situations the correction will improve the accuracy/usefulness of the
guage. At no point does including it make the guage *less* useful.
> > if incorporating a Peukert correction into the
> > *fuel guage* display can help to make the size of my
> > tank more nearly constant then the usefulness of this
> > guage truly does approach that of the ICE fuel guage.
>
> No, it won't make it constant because it isn't constant.
> It will only visualize its shrinkage/expansion as you average
> (per 4 min I think) consumption changes.
I think you misunderstood me. It will not make the actual capacity of
the battery constant, but it will make the apparent size of the fuel
tank, as indicated by the fuel guage, more nearly constant.
I think the usefulness of a vehicle's fuel guage comes from the fact
that while it may drop more rapidly when you consume energy/fuel at a
faster rate, in the ICE case, when the guage indicates 1/2, you can look
at how far you have travelled and know that you can go about the same
distance more before running out of energy/fuel. This is the behaviour
that an EV fuel guage should be striving to provide.
You are correct in observing that in order for the EV guage to correct
the energy remaining indication based on the consumption rate, it must
first observe the rate of consumption over some interval. The 4 minute
window may be referring to [one of] the interval[s] you can configure
the E-Meter for, but this does not mean it is the only, or the optimal,
window that all fuel guages must use.
A useful feature would be for the guage to 'learn'/remember the average
consumption over the last 1 (or N) trips and use that value to base its
initial caapcity remaining estimate on when you start the next trip,
until it has a chance to observe the actual consumption rate for this
[portion of this] trip.
It might also be useful to address the 'shrinking/expanding' fuel tank
effect by having the guage provide both at 'miles remaining to empty'
indication that is updated over relatively short intervals, while the
fuel guage itself updates more slowly over longer intervals. Or, have
the software control the rate at which the fuel tank size varies
(perhaps allowing for rapid decreases, but slower increases) to make the
variation less dramatic.
While the fact that your EV's fuel guage might go *upwards* while you
are driving as a result of pulling off the freeway onto surface streets
is completely unlike an ICE's fuel guage behaviour, I would suggest this
is completely acceptable and appropriate behaviour provided the guage
accurately reflects the energy remaining while I'm on the freeway as
well as when I am on surface streets.
> > As for Peukert only being useful/applicable to PbA, this
> > doesn't mean it shouldn't be supported by the meter's
> > software
> I agree with that, except that if it cost more because of
> amortization of the software development time, I'd rather
> not to pay for something I won't be using.
Well, just how many of your eVision guages do you *personally* plan to
buy from yourself? ;^>
If you intend to sell it to *others*, then what is more important is
what *they* will be using. How many Brusa Ah counters (no Peukert) have
you sold to EVer's compared to how many Evers have bought E-Meters
(includes Peukert and a fuel guage display in addition to uncompensated
Ah/Wh counting)?
(Please note that I am not trying to tell you what features you should
include in your product; I am suggesting that Peukert compensation is a
useful feature for an EV fuel guage, whether yours or someone else's.)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Google is your friend:
ElectricEVette.Com
http://www.evworld.com/syndicated/evworld_article_1090.cfm
This the trike you're looking for?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular
science this month
Still doesn't work. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 3:59 PM
Subject: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
month
> Think it is electrivette.com without the c
>
> I just saw this in the magazine.
>
> He used two independent electric motors - one on each rear wheel with no
> transmission. Controls them with a joystick.
>
> Lead acid batteries.
>
> Looks good and is inexpensive.
>
> Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
> month
>
>
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
In the end, I would really like a gauge that just tells me ah removed.
Ah by itself doesn't make a good battery "fuel" gauge, but it is
important data for the more experienced EVer. In fact, is there such a
thing as a simple amp hour counter?
Define "Simple". BRUSA unit does just that. I suppose simple means
inexpensive as well. But then accuracy suffers.
(Disclaimer: I'm not marketing device, I'm explaining what it does).
I'm sure they exist, but I haven't
found one I could add to my buggy that didn't cost more than an e-meter.
In this case cost is an issue. Thanks to weak USD. Ah counter
was about twice as cheap in 2000 (it's cost in currency did not
change!).
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks, can I make a suggestion? If you are going to post a link or URL,
open the site in your browser and then COPY the URL and PASTE it into the
email rather than typing it in, this will avoid typos.
Assuming you are using a windows based PC, all you need to do is highlight
the URL in the address bar of your browser, hit ctrl-C to copy, then put
your cursor in the body of your email and hit ctrl-V.
If you are using Linux, then hopefully you are smart enough to know how to
cut and paste ;-)
If you are using a Mac, you're on your own.
In this thread we started with a typo and someone else corrected it with
/another/ misstyped URL.
For those who care, the correct URL is:
http://electricevette.com/
Cool looking trike.
> electricvette.com doesn't exist. Have another url? Lawrence Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 3:39 PM
> Subject: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science
> this
> month
>
>
>> I just saw this in the magazine.
>>
>> He used two independent electric motors - one on each rear wheel with no
>> transmission. Controls them with a joystick.
>>
>> Lead acid batteries.
>>
>> Looks good and is inexpensive.
>>
>> Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
>> month
>>
>>
>>
>> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
>> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>>
>> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
> I disagree.
No, you don't. ;^>
> It seems I disagree with both of you - a good
> battery "fuel" gauge needs to at least compensate
> for temperature. I would be more interested in
> getting age and temperature compensation in ah
> capacity than Peukert's compensation.
I don't think anyone suggested that a good fuel guage would not include
temperature compensation of capacity.
Compensation for age is likely much trickier to accomplish, and I fear
would *worsen* the usefulness of the guage if not done well. For
instance, while the software could track DOD or kWh throughput and use
that to estimate remaining cycles, or % of life consumed (provided the
user actually had accurate values of cycle life vs DOD or lifetime
energy throughput for his particular batteries to program into the
meter, probably not a good assumption to make), it would be very
difficult for the meter to account for the wear and tear on the
batteries due to a poor charging regimen, or poor maintenance of
floodeds (how does the meter know if the water levels are being
maintained, or if distilled water is being used? How does it know if a
set of AGMs are being vented on every cycle or not, even if the cycles
themselves are shallow and predict a long life?).
> I can pretty well figure that a new, healthy, Optima
> can dish out 35 ah at EV current levels. I can use
> that number so the electron gauge reads empty after
> I use 35 of the (C20 rate) 55 ah.
You could, but users in general couldn't. What is "EV current levels"
for yours or mine 120V systems is not the same as for a 96V or 300V
system, nor will the available capacity of a new healthy Optima be the
same 35Ah for all of these systems.
What you are really suggesting is that once the typical (long term
average) rate of consumption is known for a particular EV, then the
Peukert-corrected capacity of the battery can be used as a fairly
constant estimate of the pack capacity. This is the sort of task that
the software in a Peukert corrected EV fuel guage is ideally suited for!
> Being able to enter an available capacity and a cycle
> life to 80% capacity would be useful. The software
> would be a bit involved as capacity starts at around
> 80%, rises to 100% after break in, then stays at 100%
> for around 1/2 the life, then starts falling toward
> 80% at the end of life
And Victor thought that having the fuel guage anticipate your driving
habits would be a challenging task! ;^> It would actually be *easier*
for the fuel guage to anticipate your driving habits by comparing your
consumption over the preceeding portion of the trip to the consumption
patterns recorded for the last N trips than to have the software
accurately predict the rate and effect of battery aging on capacity.
Bear in mind that you are describing a 20% change in available capacity
over the life of the battery, and barring a catastrophic battery
failure, the change is gradual over many (many) cycles. If you entered
an available capacity into the meter that is 90% of the battery's
rating, you would reduce this error to +/-10% over the life of the
battery without *any* compensation for age effects. I rather suspect
that if we had EV fuel guages that were accurate to +/-10% today we
wouldn't be dissatisfied at all.
I think it could be a useful feature to be able to program the predicted
cycle life into the meter and have it notify you when 80% (say) of those
cycles have been consumed, etc., but I think it would be very difficult
for the meter to accurately compensate the capacity for aging effects
due to the large and unknown impact of charging regimen and maintenance
habits, etc.
> Temperature is another area, more important IMHO,
> where a number of new EVers get into trouble. We see
> help requests from these new members every fall and
> winter. With a temp probe (to be located in the coldest
> battery box) and the ability to set the rate of capacity
> change with temperature this could be reflected in the
> electron gauge.
I quite agree with the importance of temperature compensation of
capacity. Did you know that the E-Meter already includes this feature?
Now take a guess at how many E-Meter owners have the optional
temperature sensor required to make it automatic?
(For those E-Meter owners who don't have the sensor, you can still use
this feature: you just have to manually measure the pack temperature and
enter that into the meter. Check the manual for the specific features
you need to access to eanble temp comp and to enter the battery temp
when not using the sensor.)
I think the challenge here is determining where to measure the
temperature at, especially when most EV's have their pack spread out
between multiple battery boxes, and often no attention is paid to making
the boxes behave similarly thermally (e.g. open racks under the hood,
closed boxes in the trunk). It is not at all impossible that the
coolest location in winter is not the coolest in summer, so really the
fuel guage needs to support a reasonable number of sensors so that one
may be installed in each box to allow the meter to automatically use the
proper sensor at any time.
> In the end, I would really like a gauge that just tells
> me ah removed.
You're in luck! All of the popular offerings do this: E-Meter, Brusa Ah
counter, and MetricMind's eVision.
> Ah by itself doesn't make a good battery "fuel" gauge,
> but it is important data for the more experienced EVer.
Hmmm, well, that was kind of the point of this thread: that Ah by itself
is a poor fuel guage and all but meaningless to the average (especially
inexperienced) EVer, and that Peukert correction (among other things)
allows for a better fuel guage (though not a better Ah counter ;^).
> I wish there where more single solution items available.
> Things like Rudman Regs, John Lussmyer's battery monitors
> (not currently available due to fire), and simple amp hour
> counters (also like commonly available volt meters, amp
> meters and tachometers.) I'm gearing up to build another EV
> and I find the constant 'feature creep' of available
> products disappointing.
This is a really good idea!
I suspect, however, that what you would find is that the Ah counting
HW/SW of an accurate meter is by far the most expensive part, and so the
cost of a standalone meter might not be substantially less than that of
something like the E-Meter.
It is kind of ironic that on the one hand you complain about the feature
creep of available products, but on the other, you want to see them
include *additional* features such as temperature compensation and aging
effect compensation either in addition to Peukert compensation or
instead of it... ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
