EV Digest 6010
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: REVA (not) in Australia
by "Tim Ireland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: DWP has 74 RAV4-EV lease returns
by "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science
this month
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
month
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 42 volts + boost?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) LA DWP Rav4-EVs Comming OF LEASE
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Odd size batteries as buddy pairs.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) 1964 Nissan Sport Truck
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science
this month
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ooops... That last line should read:
... but I would not buy one of these.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Ireland
Sent: Thursday, 12 October 2006 10:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: REVA (not) in Australia
I know all about this one!
It is a bit of a beat-up. He certainly knows how to use the media.
Either that or the media must just make up whatever they feel like to
fill in the space!
It doesn't comply with any ADRs, and I understand he has been advised by
engineers that it would be a major redesign to get it close to meeting
them. Similar sized cars like the SMART all have to comply and do, but
he has been avoiding it probably due to the cost of modifications
exceeding the value of the car.
I believe it was actually imported by someone else who had no import
approval... He saw one in London and thought "Great, I'll order one from
India and get it sent to Australia so it is there when I get back". With
no paperwork it stayed on the docks while he tried to get it released,
but as it met no standards it was not going anywhere.
I heard that owner 'gave' it to the current owner if he could get it
released, which he did as an "Engineering Evaluation Vehicle" which
means it is to be tested, but not driven on public roads. He drove it on
roads and incurred the wrath! If it is not made to comply, the
conditions of import stipulate "export or destroy". Even as a "one-off"
type import, it still needs to meet the safety requirements.
He tried to get it accepted here in this State, as the Feds said "If
they say it is OK, it will be OK anywhere". They know we are thorough
here! We had a real good look at it before we said 'no', so he took it
to Western Australia where they register just about anything... go for
the weakest link.
But at the end of the day, if it is not meeting the minimum safety
requirements, the Federal Government will not give an import approval
anyway.
Personally, I want to be driving electric... but I don't think I would
not buy one of these.
Tim.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Fowler
Sent: Thursday, 12 October 2006 3:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: REVA (not) in Australia
I just spoke to Tom at DOTARS
http://www.dotars.gov.au/utilities/contact.aspx
He's going to find out what they actually said to Mr Ferraretto about
the Reva and give me a call tomorrow.
Let's see what happens...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of James Massey
> Sent: Thursday, 12 October 2006 1:49 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: REVA (not) in Australia
>
>
> At 01:13 PM 12/10/06 +1000, Mark wrote:
> >I don't get the crushing bit.
> >
> >The three articles that came up on Google News when I asked
> about "Reva
> >Australia" all mentioned that the car would have to be exported or
> >crushed.
> G'day Mark, and All
>
> It wouldn't be the first time our local rag got it wrong, but, page 82
> of Launceston Examiner (Thursday October 12, 2006)
>
> ================
>
> Title: Electric car off the roads
> CANBERRA - Bureaucracy is denying Australian motorists the chance to
> drive electric, Labor says.
> The Reva electric car has been imported from India by an
> Adelaide company,
> but must be either crushed or exported next month under a
> ruling from the
> Department of Transport and Regional Services.
> Federal Roads Minister Jim Lloyd said the Reva did not meet
> Australian
> safety standards and could not be run on Australian roads.
> Opposition transport spokesman Kerry O'Brien said the Reva,
> built for urban
> commuting, should not have to stand up to the same safety
> standards of open
> road vehicles capable of doing 200kmh.
> "restricted to low speeds, quadricycles won't be for
> everyone, but have the
> potential for short trips or commuting to work at low cost
> with a minimum
> impact on the environment" Senator O'Brien said."But the
> Howard Government
> is saying the Reva has to be measured against the same standards as
> petrol-powered cars such as the Commodore or Falcon, weighing
> four times as
> much and capable of speeds well in excess of the legal limits."
>
> ================
>
> That's all I know.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
System retrofit cost: $14,500
Installation time: 2 hours
Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
Battery replacement cost: $4,000
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery pack
replacement cost of only $4,000.
If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would
like to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius
down the Road
...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
I haven't tried the board yet, other priorities, but its on my to-do list
somewhere down behind putting up the kids basketball hoop.
It should be easy to test with any garden variety three phase motor and can run
off the 240V AC mains, so I may try it on a piece of equipment in my workshop
first. Then its just a matter of aquiring one of those Ebay Ford motors at a
workable (read <$1K) price and some Ebay IGBTs.
Regards, Rod Dilkes
> 5) RE: Getting an AC motor inverter built
> by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Rod,
At $299 this sounds like an interesting start, not the fact
that it does so much more than the OSMC, but because it has
the nice Graphical Motor interface ;-}
Serious though - this could make a great start for an AC
motor drive, not for DC as the H-bridge outputs are twice
as lossy as the single switch used in DC controllers.
Only when you need electronic reverse is this necessary.
(Robots do not have manual transmission for example)
Hey Rod, what is your experience with this board?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am in the LA DWP area and am with Ken and others in wanting to get on a
list to get one of these RAV4 EVs, (if I can financially find a way to work
it).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Dove" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: DWP has 74 RAV4-EV lease returns
I will throw my name into the hat to be on the RAV4 EV purchasing list,
even if it means a second mortgage or leasing my wife's womb!
I find it absolutely aggravating, frustrating and maddening, that as a
consumer I cannot go to my local Toyota dealer and lease a RAV4 EV. Within
the last two years I have purchased 50 thousand dollars worth of vehicles
from General Motors yet I would MUCH rather lease an EV1 and Rav4 EV, but
this option is not available today. These two vehicles would meet my needs
completely and utterly. Furthermore, the auto makers would have an
unending monthly stream of income due to a lease as opposed to the 0%
purchases I now have.
Obviously, Big Oil and Big Auto have conspired against the US consumer by
continually foisting gigantic, fuel inefficient vehicles upon the public.
This creates unnecessarily high demands for gasoline with the resultant
price inflation at the pump. I dream of the day when there is a RAV4 EV,
EV1 and/or small electric pickup in everyone's driveway AND the stoppage
of American dollars traveling overseas to oil producing nations AND the
disappearance of the plethora of gas stations that we now see.
This is certainly no revelation to the readers of this mailing list, but
it frosts my pumpkin that I do not have a choice in this matter. However,
I have called AND written my representatives in Congress to let them know
how I feel and to urge them to write legislation more favorable to the
production of ZEV and BEV's.
I wish Doug the best of luck and hope that his fellow Californians will
put the heat on LADWP.
doug korthof wrote:
Hello,
Los Angeles DWP has operations in 5 states, spreads from the Owens Valley
to Orange County, and has a special exemption written into Prop 218 to
accomodate its power.
LADWP has been returning fleet-leased Toyota RAV4-EV, placing them at the
mercy of:
TOYOTA POLICY ON LEASE RETURN RAV4-EV
"...When a customer does return a RAV4 EV that is in good condition, it
will continue to be put into service through community groups and our
company fleet. Because many are reaching the end of their sustainable
life, we need to keep close tabs on every car and we would not want to
burden a customer with the technical costs associated with an aging
vehicle.
"...When these cars reach the end of their sustainable life, we feel we
have a responsibility to recycle certain materials and dispose of
hazardous materials, such as the battery pack, properly. Toyota has a
rigorous process for retiring the EVs that maximizes the recovery of
recyclable components and minimizes the exposure of substances of
concern. For instance, all fluids and refrigerants are removed, the
battery is deactivated and sent to a certified battery recycler, and the
de-contented vehicle is then sent to a certified destruction facility.
All recyclable metals, plastics, fibers, glass and rubber are separated
for re-use...documented at our National Headquarters under file
#200610091351..."
The best fate for lease-returns is to be evaluated by Toyota: if "good",
they get sent to remote locations, such as Catalina Island, where
ironically all electric comes from diesel generators subsidized by the
mainland ratepayers. If they fail these unstated criteria, and
eventually, they are dismantled, crushed, and, ultimately, JUNKED.
Instead of losing these great cars, and the EV-95 Panasonnic NiMH
batteries that are irreplaceable since
Chevron-Ovonyx-Cobasys-ENER-Texaco's legal action against
Toyota-Panasonic, we'd like to see the leases assumed by an EV-oriented
entity, and, ultimately, purchased for use by individual EV drivers. If,
in the fullness of time, they get scrapped, there are many parts on board
that might be of interest for EV converters or builders. Especially, the
batteries.
Currently, Toyota wants to control all spare parts and the fate of these
vehicles. Once they are sold, as they should have been originally, their
disposition is up to their owners. For some reason, Toyota hates this
idea, and is bitterly opposed to letting the vehicles go on the open
market.
Next Tuesday, Oct. 17, at 1:30 PM, the LADWP Board has asked Staff to
report on why they were returning these vehicles (Staff stated that they
don't want them, they no longer have a use for them) and to report on the
condition of them, so that the Board can decide whether they should
cherry-pick the "good ones" and dispose of the rest.
Here is the letter I'm sending out:
Los Angeles Dept. of Water and Power
Board of Commissioners
Barbara Moschos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
TEL 213-367-1356, FAX 213-367-1423
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE TO THE COMMISSIONERS
RE: 74 fleet lease-return Toyota RAV4-EV
Dear Board of Commissioners,
These 74 RAV4-EV are the last of the fleet of EVs once used by DWP. They
were being returned routinely to Toyota, the current batch of 24 had been
slated to be returned on Sept. 30.
Thank you for asking Staff to report on the condition of the 74 RAV4-EV
currently leased by DWP. Your timely intervention has so far saved these
irreplaceable clean cars from being returned to Toyota and an uncertain
fate -- either donated to far away agencies, used at Toyota plants, or,
usually, dismantled and demolished. At the next meeting, a chilling
account from Toyota will be read about how Toyota strips and crushes
these much-wanted clean Electric cars.
But these RAV4-EV are not wanted by DWP Staff. Testimony by Staff at the
last meeting indicates that these RAV4-EV no longer meet Staff needs. At
the next meeting, members of the public plan to commit enough resources
to guarantee lease payments and to purchase all the RAV4-EV.
The Board will be asked to transfer the leases to an entity set up for
that purpose. This request will be in accordance with Staff testimony
that with the limited range and maintenance, the RAV4-EV are a cost item,
and were replaced by rental cars and by a recent purchase of 90 Prius
non-plug-in hybrid vehicles.
We propose to take that burden from DWP.
After we assume the leases, we will use the existing precedent and
request that Toyota sell them to us at the established residual value of
approximately $22,000 each. Whether this is successful or not is our
problem, not DWP.
We ask for your cooperation in transferring the leases from Toyota to us,
and/or in facilitating the conversion of these leases to purchases, a
precedent set by Toyota and other lease-purchasers in the past.
Thank you very much,
Doug Korthof
1020 Mar Vista
Seal Beach, CA 90740-5842
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cell phone 714-496-1567
cc. many
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>With just a Ah gauge you do this in your head.
>
Exactly.
Cars went from manual transmission to automatic, so few need to know how
to shift anymore. Hopefully we (or someone else) can do the same for
mileage estimation.
Cory Cross
>I had a Solectria with 18,000
>miles on the original batteries. During the winter 15 to 20 mile range was
>tops. You had to think and watch the Ah and know what you could do. If you
>were not an EV driver you would have no idea but most on this list would.
>
>Personally I would like to have both a Ah gauge and a SOC such as are in the
>factory vehicles.
>
>I am sure someday it will use a GPS and your directions and tell you if you
>can make it. The temp hills and speed will all be figured out for you.
>
>Don
>
>In a message dated 10/11/2006 11:37:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, crc
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>Why not have (arbitrarily) 3 mileage gauges at 25 mph, 40 mph, and 60 mph?
>
>It addresses almost all the issues without requiring the driver to
>understand anything about batteries. If I'm ten miles from home and the
>gauges read 14 miles, 11 miles, and 8 miles (respectively) I can easily
>interpret that driving 45 mph will get me home. Temperature
>compensation, internal resistance, and Peukert's factor are all in
>software. Driving habits can be learned (add a multiplicative factor
>based on predicted versus actual distance).
>
>Stop-and-go traffic is the only thing not predicted by this, but that
>could be learned for each speed range. In my experience, you either got
>a lot of it in one area or you don't.
>
>I'm building a system with this.
>
>Cory Cross
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, it is a hybrid, and perhaps the battery pack is only large enough
to help with acceleration. I see they don't mention the capacity.
Steven Lough wrote:
In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
System retrofit cost: $14,500
Installation time: 2 hours
Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
Battery replacement cost: $4,000
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery
pack replacement cost of only $4,000.
If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would
like to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius
down the Road
...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
If you are using Linux, then hopefully you are smart enough to know how to
cut and paste ;-)
It's the same, at least with any modern distro.
If you are using a Mac, you're on your own.
Use the "freeway offramp" key instead of CTRL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
<[email protected]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 08:36:46 -0700
In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
System retrofit cost: $14,500
Installation time: 2 hours
Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
Battery replacement cost: $4,000
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery pack
replacement cost of only $4,000.
If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would like
to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius
down the Road
...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
The answer might lie in the vagueness of this claim.
How much gas is a trickle? Is that a metric trickle, or Imperial?
Maybe this pack can barely supply enough power to keep the car moving at 30
MPH on the level. And, this is a very efficient vehicle in terms of
aerodynamics, etc.
And, what are the conditions that result in a range of 55 kM ( about 33
miles) ? Is it at low speed with a tailwind?
This may be mostly advertising hype. It wouldn't be the first time.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science
this month
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 07:13:08 -0700 (PDT)
Having braking only on the rear wheels makes the front wheel a load
bearing member as the it gets more weight during the consequent weight
transfer during braking. Not to mention it cannot stop nearly as well
only using rear brakes as the weight transfer moves the weight from the
rear wheels to the front wheel.
I like the body style.
Mike
Also, if the front wheel was really "non-load bearing" you could save weight
and drag by just removing it. But, then, you'd have a really big Segway.
I guess it depends on the definition of "load".
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Verry interesting. Pretty good price and 3500 cycles. A123 batteries. At
3500 cycles, it will be cheaper than lead per mile or per cycle. FINALLY
li-ion is cheaper than lead in the long term, this is a big step forward.
But for the average joe...
At this price it's still $800 per kwh. This is several times the cost of
lead still, so the huge upfront cost of a big pack for a 100% EV is a
problem. But $14k for system retrofit? Kinda expensive???? Where does all
that other money go if the battery is $4k.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR"
<[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 11:36 AM
Subject: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
System retrofit cost: $14,500
Installation time: 2 hours
Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
Battery replacement cost: $4,000
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery pack
replacement cost of only $4,000.
If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would like
to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius
down the Road
...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: Jack Murray <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:58:04 -0000
They learned to used sub c cells because D cells can't deliver the
peak amps :)
Mike
How about AAA's set up as buddy pairs?
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Try the new Live Search today!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
I was wondering for safety sake if I could design a
battery system on 42 volts?
Supposedly 42volts DC won't kill you?
42V could be fatal, with the right circumstances.
So if had two banks each consisting of either 7 6volts
PbA or 5 8volts.
Then I'd use some heavy duty diodes to make the boost
"voltage doubler"
Voltage doublers typically refer to capacitor / diode ladders, and
aren't suited to high current levels. You'd need an inductive boost
converter.
42V means you'll need considerable current to move a vehicle of any
size, and a motor that can handle that current. This means larger
wiring. Higher currents mean it's more likely to have an iffy junction
fail from overheating.
With higher voltages, you can get away with lighter gauge wiring
(provided the voltage rating is high enough), and lower currents for the
same amount of power.
Has anyone else done this. I was wondering for
liability it might be better if the voltage was lower.
FWIW, many commercial EVs (like the EV1) had pack voltages > 200V, some
> 300V
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think by 5 kilowatt, they mean 5 kilowatt-hour. The A123 batteries could
certainly pump out A LOT more than 5kw of power, so it makes sense. The
battery is supposed to last about 30 miles, so it doesn't look like it is
"just helping out with acceleration."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
Well, it is a hybrid, and perhaps the battery pack is only large enough to
help with acceleration. I see they don't mention the capacity.
Steven Lough wrote:
In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
System retrofit cost: $14,500
Installation time: 2 hours
Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
Battery replacement cost: $4,000
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery pack
replacement cost of only $4,000.
If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would
like to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius
down the Road
...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
the size of my tank depends on how I am driving!
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I know that. So your average (over many days if you will) driving
pattern calls for 200Wh consumption in mixed freeway and slow speed
driving. Thus this is the size of your fuel tank. Yes, it will be
smaller if you suddenly decide to run on freeway all day long, but
a) it is out of ordinary, and b) you *know* you won't have as many
Wh available as usual if you do that.
I would suggest that a majority of drivers don't actually know the size
of their ICE's gas tank, and don't know what their typical gas miles per
gallon are -- all they have are vague guesses. The gas gauge is never
calibrated in gallons. They don't do any mental calculations to estimate
their range. They just drive until the "low fuel" warning comes on, or
fill up on Fridays, or whatever.
I'm saying that every EV needs a "fuel" gauge that works about the same.
a) you can tell about how much fuel is left, and b) there is some kind
of warning light/buzzer to tell you when it's dangerously low.
Displaying KWH used so far is not a good substitute, because the driver
doesn't know the pack's total capacity. The display needs to be
ratiometric, like a gas gauge (0 - 1/4 - 1/2 - Full).
The problem in an EV is more difficult, because the battery changes
capacity with load current, temperature, age, etc. So, the fuel gauge
needs to compensate. Peukert corrects for load current effects. The
E-meter has a temperature probe input; if used, it corrects for
temperature. The only thing the E-meter doesn't correct for is age; the
user has to program this data in himself (by setting the battery's
capacity at the 20-hr rate).
If you want an analogy, the Toyota Prius has a variable-size gas tank.
It is a rubberlike bladder, which varies between 8 and 11 gallons with
temperature. The gas gauge reads out as 0...full in 10 steps (a digital
bar-graph). "1/2" is about 5 gallons remaining, regardless of
temperature. When cold, you can only put in 3 more gallons. If hot, you
can put in 6 gallons. In other words, Toyota chose to *hide* the actual
capacity of the tank, and tries to display fuel *remaining*, not tank
size or fuel used so far.
I think the main weakness in the E-meter's fuel gauge is that it depends
on the user to set the battery capacity and Peukert exponent. The
average user does not know these numbers, and so is likely to guess.
This makes the empty-full bargraph a "guess gauge".
The E-meter already has a computer, and is already measuring all the
data needed to calculate the battery capacity and Peukert exponent. So,
I think it should have watched battery voltage as a function of
charge/discharge current, and configure ITSELF for the amphour capacity
and Peukert exponent. This would eliminate a source of error, and it
would automatically track degradation as the battery ages.
No, it won't make it constant because it isn't constant.
It will only visualize its shrinkage/expansion as you average
(per 4 min I think) consumption changes.
Yes; that is the point. You *need* to alert the driver that battery
capacity is not contant, because he's used to ICE cars where fuel tank
capacity *is* constant (except the Prius).
if it cost more because of amortization of the software development
time, I'd rather not to pay for something I won't be using.
Ach, now ye sound just lik the rest of us cheapskates, laddie! :-)
Seriously, this is the sort of software feature that should add
considerably to the usefulness of the instrument, while adding a
negligible amount to its cost.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Lee,
the controller only outputs this data when in motoring mode,
in my case around 2x 20 min per day. So the error would be
limited to around 0.1 Ah per day. Heck, even 1 Ah is OK with
me as the SOC meter I have now is less accurate than a
fuel gauge ;-)
Charging is not done using the controller, so this data will
not be useful to measure charging efficiency or even charging
correctness, that's why I'd love to have an independent
instrument like an E-meter ;-)
Ok, then it should work. Whatever gadget you use to count amphours
up/down can use the controller for countdown, something in the battery
charger for count-up, and simply hold the last value when neither
charging nor discharging. I suppose you could have a separate instrument
to monitor light loads on the propulsion pack (DC/DC converter, etc.)
and apply a correction for it, too; that way, the amphour display
wouldn't be off as much after the vehicle has sat idle for days or weeks.
This method of having multiple shunts, each sized to the respective
load, could actually be a lot more accurate than the E-meter one-shunt
method. It gets around the difficulties of measuring 0.1 amp with a
500amp shunt.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As seen on the EVDL 10/11/2006
I THINK THE FOLKS AT DONT CRUSH.ORG BETTER GET R I G H T ON THIS
BEFORE THESE VEHICLES GO BACK TO TOYOTA.... (just my 2 cents...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Los Angeles DWP has operations in 5 states, spreads from the Owens Valley to
Orange County, and has a special exemption written into Prop 218 to
accomodate its power.
LADWP has been returning fleet-leased Toyota RAV4-EV, placing them at
the mercy of:
TOYOTA POLICY ON LEASE RETURN RAV4-EV
"...When a customer does return a RAV4 EV that is in good condition, it will
continue to be put into service through community groups and our company
fleet. Because many are reaching the end of their sustainable life, we need
to keep close tabs on every car and we would not want to burden a customer
with the technical costs associated with an aging vehicle.
"...When these cars reach the end of their sustainable life, we feel we have
a responsibility to recycle certain materials and dispose of hazardous
materials, such as the battery pack, properly. Toyota has a rigorous process
for retiring the EVs that maximizes the recovery of recyclable components
and minimizes the exposure of substances of concern. For instance, all
fluids and refrigerants are removed, the battery is deactivated and sent to
a certified battery recycler, and the de-contented vehicle is then sent to a
certified destruction facility. All recyclable metals, plastics, fibers,
glass and rubber are separated for re-use...documented at our National
Headquarters under file #200610091351..."
The best fate for lease-returns is to be evaluated by Toyota: if "good",
they get sent to remote locations, such as Catalina Island, where ironically
all electric comes from diesel generators subsidized by the mainland
ratepayers. If they fail these unstated criteria, and eventually, they are
dismantled, crushed, and, ultimately, JUNKED.
Instead of losing these great cars, and the EV-95 Panasonnic NiMH batteries
that are irreplaceable since Chevron-Ovonyx-Cobasys-ENER-Texaco's legal
action against Toyota-Panasonic, we'd like to see the leases assumed by an
EV-oriented entity, and, ultimately, purchased for use by individual EV
drivers. If, in the fullness of time, they get scrapped, there are many
parts on board that might be of interest for EV converters or builders.
Especially, the batteries.
Currently, Toyota wants to control all spare parts and the fate of these
vehicles. Once they are sold, as they should have been originally, their
disposition is up to their owners. For some reason, Toyota hates this idea,
and is bitterly opposed to letting the vehicles go on the open market.
Next Tuesday, Oct. 17, at 1:30 PM, the LADWP Board has asked Staff to report
on why they were returning these vehicles (Staff stated that they don't want
them, they no longer have a use for them) and to report on the condition of
them, so that the Board can decide whether they should cherry-pick the "good
ones" and dispose of the rest.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Answer from the Zappy list.
Posted by: "fefo_4" [EMAIL PROTECTED] fefo_4
Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:35 pm (PDT)
> Yes.
>
> AFIK, this is exactly why buddy pairs work. The two dissimilar
> batteies act as a single larger battery, and share the available
> electrons as needed. They are VERY sensitive to interconnection
> resistance, so wire sizes and lengths need to be the same for all
> pairs. Their added capacity also satisfies Mr. Peukert, so you get
> more of your available electrons delivered to the motor.
>
> Each pair in the series needs to have the same total capacity,
just
> as in a standard series string.
>
> Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26sbrftog%3D1%26from%3DR10%26satitle%3D260039716151%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC6%26sargn%3D-1%2526saslc%253D2%26sadis%3D200%26fpos%3DZIP%252FPostal%26ftrt%3D1%26ftrv%3D1%26saprclo%3D%26saprchi%3D%26fsop%3D1%26fsoo%3D1%26fvi%3D1&item=260039716151
No bids. Has a 1200cc motor. I think these are even lighter than the later
trucks. Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How much gas is a trickle?
Well, depends how much acceleration you want. You could probably use no gas
at all if you used gentle acceleration.
Maybe this pack can barely supply enough power to keep the car moving at
30 MPH on the level. And, this is a very efficient vehicle in terms of
aerodynamics, etc.
How do you figure that? A123 cells are extremely powerful, the pack has
enough power to easily keep it over 100 mph.
And, what are the conditions that result in a range of 55 kM ( about 33
miles) ? Is it at low speed with a tailwind?
How does it get 30 miles range?
You said it yourself: "And, this is a very efficient vehicle in terms of
aerodynamics, etc."
5000wh / 30 miles = 166 wh/mile. Sounds about right for a Prius and the
numbers I've seen. I'm sure this is not at some unreasonable speed. But the
Prius motor won't go more than 45 mph or so, I think.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
The answer might lie in the vagueness of this claim.
How much gas is a trickle? Is that a metric trickle, or Imperial?
Maybe this pack can barely supply enough power to keep the car moving at
30 MPH on the level. And, this is a very efficient vehicle in terms of
aerodynamics, etc.
And, what are the conditions that result in a range of 55 kM ( about 33
miles) ? Is it at low speed with a tailwind?
This may be mostly advertising hype. It wouldn't be the first time.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip
http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
I would find myself in the position of having driven most of
the day at low speeds and then taken the freeway at higher
speeds. Without the PK factor, I was left with no real idea of
what my actual state of charge was.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I understand the situation Mike. Tell me how e-meter will react in this
case:
The E-meter has two displays; the Amphour display, and the Empty-Full
"fuel" gauge bargraph. The Amphour display shows how many amphours you
have taken out of the pack, but it does *not* show how many are left.
You might "know" that the pack holds (say) 40ah, but that's just a
guess; it changes with temperature, age of the pack. etc. So. it is not
reliable for estimating range to go.
The Empty-Full bargraph *does* show you the percent of pack capacity
that you have used so far. It knows the total pack capacity and is
Peukert- and temperature-compensated. When people unfamiliar with EVs
drive my car, I tell them to ignore the numbers, and just watch the
Empty-Full bargraph.
Actually, there are more display options than that. You can set the
"time" display to show 0-100% of charge remaining, as a digital
representation of the bargraph (which only shows 0% 20% 40% 60% 80% and
100% steps). This provides a higher resolution, and more dramatic
illustration of the effects of your driving style ("Wow, look how fast
it counts down when I floor it!)
You can also change the Amphours to uncompensated KWH, if you prefer
pure engineering data.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Whether the front wheel brakes or not, it always
is a load bearing member - with braking even more
as an additional torque and deceleration is added.
True that under hard braking conditions the front
wheel(s) get more than their share of load
>and stopping power<
So I would not want to ever be in a vehicle with
rear brakes only in an emergency-stop situation.
Know one of the most fatal newbie motorriders faults?
Not braking with both wheels.
Why do you think they build a proportioning valve into
cars' brake system?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 7:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular
science this month
Having braking only on the rear wheels makes the front wheel a load
bearing member as the it gets more weight during the consequent weight
transfer during braking. Not to mention it cannot stop nearly as well
only using rear brakes as the weight transfer moves the weight from the
rear wheels to the front wheel.
I like the body style.
Mike
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Where did you see a price?
>
> On the web site I read that it has two independent 9" motors, but I
> do not
> see where it says no transmission (or reduction gears).
>
> "200mi and more on a charge"? Thats pretty good. I wonder if this is
> a
> claim or an actual result.
>
> Front wheel is "non-load bearing" - wonder how this will handle on
> wet
> surfaces?
>
> Can't say much for the looks though...
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of GWMobile
> Sent: October 11, 2006 4:00 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular
> science this
> month
>
> Think it is electrivette.com without the c
>
> I just saw this in the magazine.
>
> He used two independent electric motors - one on each rear wheel with
> no
> transmission. Controls them with a joystick.
>
> Lead acid batteries.
>
> Looks good and is inexpensive.
>
> Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
> month
>
>
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
>
>
--- End Message ---
