EV Digest 6011
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: lee's emeter companion?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 9Electric Progress Report -- Ring Roller
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: lee's emeter companion?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) cheap electric pleasure boat (still vaporware so far)
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: 42 volts + boost?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: 9Electric Progress Report -- Ring Roller
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: LA DWP Rav4-EVs Comming OF LEASE
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science
this month
by Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: DWP has 74 RAV4-EV lease returns
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science
this month
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Lighter Porsche 914
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: 42 volts + boost?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> From my interpretation of Peukert's, there are
> 2 ways of viewing it.
I agree that there are at least two ways to view/apply Peukert
correction:
(a) apply it such that the fuel guage displays the fraction of available
energy remaining at the present discharge rate. This is the approach I
have been assuming (and the only one I thought of until after responding
to Cor's post). This approach results in a fuel guage that can move up
or down while driving to reflect the fact that as the discharge rate
varies so does the usabl/available capacity remaining in the battery.
(b) apply it to compensate the discharge rate to some normalised rate
(like 1A), such that the size of the 'tank' remains fixed independant of
discharge rate. That is the fuel guage always indicates the % of
capacity remaining in the battery at some fixed rate of consumption (the
actual energy in the battery doesn't vary with discharge rate, it is
fixed, only the amount of energy that may be *accessed* at the present
consumption rate varies). When the actual rate of consumption is
higher, Peukert is applied to 'weight' the rate of energy consumption
accordingly. This results in a fuel guage that never moves upward while
driving, but rather only drops faster or slower depending on the rate of
consumption. This seems to be the approach that Ford took, as Russ
described for his factory Ranger EV.
I would suggest that (a) is a far superior approach for an EV with just
a fuel guage, even though it results in fuel guage behaviour that
differs from that of an ICE vehicle.
The problem with (b) is that it really depends on the user having an
additional indication such as the distance remaining to empty (DRE)
guage that Russ describes the EV Ranger as having. Note that Russ does
state that while the Ranger's fuel guage never moves upwards while
driving, the DRE guage will jump up and down as the 'instantaneous' rate
of consumption varies. Frankly, I would suggest that when a DRE type
guage is provided, the fuel guage is completely unnecessary; the DRE
guage is basically providing the function of the '% of energy remaining'
fuel guage described in (a), but with the added convenience/nicety of
converting this into a range remaining estimate based on the present
rate of consumption (which saves the user needing a Wh/mi consumption
display/guage and having to perform the same calculation mentally).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For anyone that got discouraged the first time: The page loads much faster now,
I accidentally used the full size images for the thumbnails. All fixed now.
http://9electric.evforge.net/Tools/ringroller
Rush and Storm and those in private emails, thanks for the kudos. It was alot
of a fun and I learned alot. It was a good warmup project for building my own
adaptor.
----- Original Message ----
From: Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:48:21 PM
Subject: Re: 9Electric Progress Report -- Ring Roller
David,
Very, very nice...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:06 PM
Subject: 9Electric Progress Report -- Ring Roller
> I'm definitely taking the scenic route on my conversion. Instead of just
> buying an adaptor, I bought a lathe/mill and welder, and have been learning
> to use them. I needed to roll a strip of steel into a hoop for my spacer. A
> friend rolled one for me, but because of his ring roller's design, it warped
> it. So I decided to build my own ring roller. It was a great experience, I
> learned alot, and it actually works! The first job I did on it was to gently
> curve roll bar pads to fit curved fenderwells (for another car, not the
> 9Electric). Soon it will be used to make my motor adaptor spacer.
>
> http://9electric.evforge.net/Tools/ringroller/
>
> Thinking EV conversion businesswise for a moment, a tool like this could be a
> step towards making adaptors more inexpensively.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee suggested:
> I'm saying that every EV needs a "fuel" gauge that works about the same.
> a) you can tell about how much fuel is left, and b) there is some kind
> of warning light/buzzer to tell you when it's dangerously low.
>
> Displaying KWH used so far is not a good substitute, because the driver
> doesn't know the pack's total capacity. The display needs to be
> ratiometric, like a gas gauge (0 - 1/4 - 1/2 - Full).
As a land and water low-speed EVer, I'd be interested more in having a
display which indicates how many miles I can go before empty. On the river,
if I know that it's 12-miles to the marina, the thing I want to know is at
my current speed, will I make it to the marina. A meter which indicates
projected range at speed makes a lot of sense to me...slow down, range
projection goes up...conversely, if range projection is 20miles and I only
have 12 to go, heck--no worries mate, put the pedal to the medal!
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.hugg.com/story/British-sports-car-designers-to-launch-new-lowprice-electric-boat/
http://www.projectattivo.co.uk/home.htm for the maker's page, but it's
being hammered pretty hard right now.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Danny and everyone, please bring on the constructive criticism!
Danny Miller wrote:
> Does not address incline and required acceleration issues, which may
> be just as important.
Good point on the incline. (See below about acceleration/power)
If you live in a hilly area, the vehicle acts the same as a lead-foot
driver. If compensation was developed, it would apply to both cases.
How many people have hilly areas in one direction, perfectly flat land
in the other, and drive both at the same speed? (That's not a rhetorical
question)
>
> The current required to maintain 40 mph on level ground is also not
> constant. It will change with air temp, tire inflation, bearing
> condition,
I doubt the functional condition of those will affect range more than
5%. With a Wh/mi display, you could tell if something was broken because
it went up 50%...
> and also battery voltage. If it takes 10KW to run the motor, a colder
> or older battery which produces a lower voltage will have to put out
> more amps to produce 10KW.
If the battery cannot cannot produce enough power to operate safely at a
given speed, I would consider its range at that speed to be zero miles.
Temperature and age effects are not based on driving habits. Age effects
can be averaged over many cycles.
Most of these issues affect the one-gauge meters too. Are there any
special problems with my idea?
Cory Cross
>
> Danny
>
> Cory Cross wrote:
>
>> Why not have (arbitrarily) 3 mileage gauges at 25 mph, 40 mph, and 60
>> mph?
>>
>> It addresses almost all the issues without requiring the driver to
>> understand anything about batteries. If I'm ten miles from home and the
>> gauges read 14 miles, 11 miles, and 8 miles (respectively) I can easily
>> interpret that driving 45 mph will get me home. Temperature
>> compensation, internal resistance, and Peukert's factor are all in
>> software. Driving habits can be learned (add a multiplicative factor
>> based on predicted versus actual distance).
>>
>> Stop-and-go traffic is the only thing not predicted by this, but that
>> could be learned for each speed range. In my experience, you either got
>> a lot of it in one area or you don't.
>>
>> I'm building a system with this.
>>
>> Cory Cross
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack, seems to me you need to do more testing.
using 100% of DOD will give you around 300 cycles on these NIMH (from
similar intelect 4200 results)
if you are discharging them at 10C now it will give you 150 cycles
and if you have paralleled cells without electronic cells, i bet it will be
under 50 cycles until you hear few pop sound or smoke...
I have seen sub-c cells taking near 200A abuse during less than "one hand
fingers count" seconds...result was sometimes going bang imediatly and with
more luck arround 50 cycles dying fast from an awful painful life.
250A power from 9Ah D sized cells during 11seconds ? ohhh man that's 28C
sustained power on 9Ah NIMH cells ?
Yeahhhhhh, EV racer do you heard that ? forget optima and hawkers now you
can feed your 2000amp zilla with an 300S8P 9Ah intelect pack.
It will work for sure but how long, we are talking about EV battery pack:
security, cyclic life, calendar life, sufficient power at least.
May i suggest you to purchase few cells more, make parallel 12V18Ah assembly
then you can test and talk about your results here.
I bet you would be disapointed from results...but
please give it a try THEN you can trough to face to knowledgeable people on
this list... than they were right saying it's not usable as you think and
that you apologize...
have fun with battery testing :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
> As discussed before the Optima isn't really 45Ah because at 1C rate and
> 50% DOD, it is more like 24Ah useable capacity.
> The IB9000 can do 100% DOD at 1C rate. So a more direct comparison is a
> 30 cell pack (27Ah) at 13lbs (cells only, add wt for housing,etc), that
> looks like 1/3 the weight of the Optima.
>
> I've been testing the cells.
>
> The IB9000 cells can do 10C (90amp) continuous discharges, and 1C (9amp)
> charges (at least). Not sure where you get 50A and 3.6A charge.
> They will heat up at 90amps after a short while, but they still deliver
> the juice. They will deliver 250amps with significant voltage sag (and
> probably with some damage too), but maybe for an 11-second blast it'll
> survive for the next round.
> <smart_ass>
> Imagine that, a little toy D-cell doing 250amps, maybe those R/C guys
> know something others don't
> </smart_ass>
>
> Jack
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > I goofed on the weight & ah of their pack.
> >
> > But, by referring to capacity of Optima battery, you could get (in
theory)
> > a 50-cell pack (10s x 5p config) with 12V 45Ah at estimated weight ~10Kg
(22
> > pounds). Given a careful housing design, this pack could be discharged
at
> > 50A continuously, and be recharged at 3.6A per 10-cell sub-group.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>;
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 8:11 AM
> > Subject: Intelect 9 ah D cells.
> >
> >
> >
> >>3.85809 is the weight of one string( each cell is 175 gram) at 12v
> >
> > equaling
> >
> >>9ah. Just multiply by the ah you need. It would be in units of 9ah.
So
> >
> > an
> >
> >>Optima sized pack would be around 23 pounds & 54 ah. 60 batteries. 20
> >>batteries or about 8 pounds for a BB 17 ah sized battery that is 18ah
for
> >>the d cells. At 5 dollars per cell that is 300 per battery. At 10
> >
> > dollars
> >
> >>per cell that is 600 dollars or what you'd spend for a used Panasonic
NiMh
> >>from a Rav4. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Golub asked:
> I was wondering for safety sake if I could design a
> battery system on 42 volts?
> Supposedly 42volts DC won't kill you?
That's essentially been done...decades ago, sort of.
My 1921 Milburn originally came with a 48v bank (8batts) in the front, 36v
(6batts) in the rear. For 1st and 2nd speeds, the pack is electrically
configured as a 42v pack by switching all but one battery in the front pack
in parallel with the rear pack (plus the one 6v battery in front). For
3rd/4th speeds, the banks are switched in series.
This was common as it allowed mechanical speed control.
In your case, you could do something similar if you liked, charging 2 banks
of 42v with a low voltage charger, then, when it's time to run, your master
contactor (mechanical or electromechanical) switches the 2 banks in series
and then enables your 84v motor controller. Not sure what you gain by doing
this though, since while you can get away with a lower voltage charger, you
would have to dish out higher charging current.
It is a good idea to limit the number of places on your vehicle that someone
can be exposed to the lethal voltages. Separating the pack into substring
banks is common and a good idea for safety. I don't think anyone here would
dispute this as a good practice.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That makes a lot of sense to me, show remaining range at current
consumption rate, but also the moving average, so when you coast, the
range at infinite wouldn't be very helpful. This is better than a "gas
gauge", which I've always thought was a very outdated item on modern gas
cars.
As a land and water low-speed EVer, I'd be interested more in having a
display which indicates how many miles I can go before empty. On the river,
if I know that it's 12-miles to the marina, the thing I want to know is at
my current speed, will I make it to the marina. A meter which indicates
projected range at speed makes a lot of sense to me...slow down, range
projection goes up...conversely, if range projection is 20miles and I only
have 12 to go, heck--no worries mate, put the pedal to the medal!
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
> For anyone that got discouraged the first time: The page
> loads much faster now, I accidentally used the full size
> images for the thumbnails. All fixed now.
>
> http://9electric.evforge.net/Tools/ringroller
I'll echo the others here: cool, very cool! Looks like it was both fun
and educational, and you have a useful tool to show for your effort!
> I needed to roll a strip of steel into a hoop for my
> spacer.
> Thinking EV conversion businesswise for a moment, a tool
> like this could be a step towards making adaptors more
> inexpensively.
I'm not sure this is really the case. I believe that commercial
adapters that use such spacers actually take the approach of simply
cutting an appropriate length slice from a piece of heavy wall tubing.
When you are making a single adapter, the cost of buying some minimum
length of heavy wall tubing might make it more economical to roll the
spacer from bar stock (provided you can find bar stock of the
appropriate width), but if you expect to make multiple adapters the cost
of the tubing should become a much smaller issue.
I think a significant advantage of the tubing approach is that you can
easily slice a spacer ring of the exact (and different) width required
for each specific vehicle and motor combination from the same piece of
tubing stock.
But, who knows, maybe you have found a better way to skin this
particular cat! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree, we need all the help we can get.
I would also like to get one of these if possible.
> Stephen Paschke
> AR Daemon, DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI support,
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
> Office 303-607-2993
> Cell 303-204-9280
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steven Lough
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 10:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
Subject: LA DWP Rav4-EVs Comming OF LEASE
As seen on the EVDL 10/11/2006
I THINK THE FOLKS AT DONT CRUSH.ORG BETTER GET R I G H T ON THIS
BEFORE THESE VEHICLES GO BACK TO TOYOTA.... (just my 2 cents...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Los Angeles DWP has operations in 5 states, spreads from the Owens
Valley to
Orange County, and has a special exemption written into Prop 218 to
accomodate its power.
LADWP has been returning fleet-leased Toyota RAV4-EV, placing them at
the mercy of:
TOYOTA POLICY ON LEASE RETURN RAV4-EV
"...When a customer does return a RAV4 EV that is in good condition, it
will
continue to be put into service through community groups and our company
fleet. Because many are reaching the end of their sustainable life, we
need
to keep close tabs on every car and we would not want to burden a
customer
with the technical costs associated with an aging vehicle.
"...When these cars reach the end of their sustainable life, we feel we
have
a responsibility to recycle certain materials and dispose of hazardous
materials, such as the battery pack, properly. Toyota has a rigorous
process
for retiring the EVs that maximizes the recovery of recyclable
components
and minimizes the exposure of substances of concern. For instance, all
fluids and refrigerants are removed, the battery is deactivated and sent
to
a certified battery recycler, and the de-contented vehicle is then sent
to a
certified destruction facility. All recyclable metals, plastics, fibers,
glass and rubber are separated for re-use...documented at our National
Headquarters under file #200610091351..."
The best fate for lease-returns is to be evaluated by Toyota: if "good",
they get sent to remote locations, such as Catalina Island, where
ironically
all electric comes from diesel generators subsidized by the mainland
ratepayers. If they fail these unstated criteria, and eventually, they
are
dismantled, crushed, and, ultimately, JUNKED.
Instead of losing these great cars, and the EV-95 Panasonnic NiMH
batteries
that are irreplaceable since Chevron-Ovonyx-Cobasys-ENER-Texaco's legal
action against Toyota-Panasonic, we'd like to see the leases assumed by
an
EV-oriented entity, and, ultimately, purchased for use by individual EV
drivers. If, in the fullness of time, they get scrapped, there are many
parts on board that might be of interest for EV converters or builders.
Especially, the batteries.
Currently, Toyota wants to control all spare parts and the fate of these
vehicles. Once they are sold, as they should have been originally,
their
disposition is up to their owners. For some reason, Toyota hates this
idea,
and is bitterly opposed to letting the vehicles go on the open market.
Next Tuesday, Oct. 17, at 1:30 PM, the LADWP Board has asked Staff to
report
on why they were returning these vehicles (Staff stated that they don't
want
them, they no longer have a use for them) and to report on the condition
of
them, so that the Board can decide whether they should cherry-pick the
"good
ones" and dispose of the rest.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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**************************************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Body style- Awesone.
Now do it with the 3rd wheel in the rear so you can stop and turn without
falling over.
Despite the fact that braking in corners reduces traction with any machine, its
a fact that lots of people do it. The worst thing to do is brake agressively
once in the turn- lots of people have died this way without the weakness of a
single wheel in the front. I've ridden enough three wheelers to get *that*
message.
-Ralph
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:18:50 -0700
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Whether the front wheel brakes or not, it always
> is a load bearing member - with braking even more
> as an additional torque and deceleration is added.
>
> True that under hard braking conditions the front
> wheel(s) get more than their share of load
> >and stopping power<
> So I would not want to ever be in a vehicle with
> rear brakes only in an emergency-stop situation.
>
> Know one of the most fatal newbie motorriders faults?
> Not braking with both wheels.
>
> Why do you think they build a proportioning valve into
> cars' brake system?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 7:13 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular
> science this month
>
>
> Having braking only on the rear wheels makes the front wheel a load
> bearing member as the it gets more weight during the consequent weight
> transfer during braking. Not to mention it cannot stop nearly as well
> only using rear brakes as the weight transfer moves the weight from the
> rear wheels to the front wheel.
>
> I like the body style.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Where did you see a price?
> >
> > On the web site I read that it has two independent 9" motors, but I
> > do not
> > see where it says no transmission (or reduction gears).
> >
> > "200mi and more on a charge"? Thats pretty good. I wonder if this is
> > a
> > claim or an actual result.
> >
> > Front wheel is "non-load bearing" - wonder how this will handle on
> > wet
> > surfaces?
> >
> > Can't say much for the looks though...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On
> > Behalf Of GWMobile
> > Sent: October 11, 2006 4:00 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular
> > science this
> > month
> >
> > Think it is electrivette.com without the c
> >
> > I just saw this in the magazine.
> >
> > He used two independent electric motors - one on each rear wheel with
> > no
> > transmission. Controls them with a joystick.
> >
> > Lead acid batteries.
> >
> > Looks good and is inexpensive.
> >
> > Electricvette.com homebuilt electric trike in popular science this
> > month
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
> > globalwarming and the melting poles.
> >
> > www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I totally agree with your post below on this except I personally refuse to
buy another new vehicle until it has a plug on it. Until that happens I will
never buy another new car. I am confident they will come out in a few years
but I am not going to wait. I will have some fun and see what I can build
myself while waiting.
I have 15 vehicles in our company fleet I hope they last for a few more
years before I have to consider my options.
Don
In a message dated 10/12/2006 7:53:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I will throw my name into the hat to be on the RAV4 EV purchasing list,
even if it means a second mortgage or leasing my wife's womb!
I find it absolutely aggravating, frustrating and maddening, that as a
consumer I cannot go to my local Toyota dealer and lease a RAV4 EV.
Within the last two years I have purchased 50 thousand dollars worth of
vehicles from General Motors yet I would MUCH rather lease an EV1 and
Rav4 EV, but this option is not available today. These two vehicles
would meet my needs completely and utterly. Furthermore, the auto makers
would have an unending monthly stream of income due to a lease as
opposed to the 0% purchases I now have.
Obviously, Big Oil and Big Auto have conspired against the US consumer
by continually foisting gigantic, fuel inefficient vehicles upon the
public. This creates unnecessarily high demands for gasoline with the
resultant price inflation at the pump. I dream of the day when there is
a RAV4 EV, EV1 and/or small electric pickup in everyone's driveway AND
the stoppage of American dollars traveling overseas to oil producing
nations AND the disappearance of the plethora of gas stations that we
now see.
This is certainly no revelation to the readers of this mailing list, but
it frosts my pumpkin that I do not have a choice in this matter.
However, I have called AND written my representatives in Congress to let
them know how I feel and to urge them to write legislation more
favorable to the production of ZEV and BEV's.
I wish Doug the best of luck and hope that his fellow Californians will
put the heat on LADWP.
doug korthof wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Los Angeles DWP has operations in 5 states, spreads from the Owens Valley
to Orange County, and has a special exemption written into Prop 218 to
accomodate its power.
>
> LADWP has been returning fleet-leased Toyota RAV4-EV, placing them at the
mercy of:
>
> TOYOTA POLICY ON LEASE RETURN RAV4-EV
> "...When a customer does return a RAV4 EV that is in good condition, it
will continue to be put into service through community groups and our company
fleet. Because many are reaching the end of their sustainable life, we need to
keep close tabs on every car and we would not want to burden a customer with
the technical costs associated with an aging vehicle.
> "...When these cars reach the end of their sustainable life, we feel we
have a responsibility to recycle certain materials and dispose of hazardous
materials, such as the battery pack, properly. Toyota has a rigorous process
for
retiring the EVs that maximizes the recovery of recyclable components and
minimizes the exposure of substances of concern. For instance, all fluids and
refrigerants are removed, the battery is deactivated and sent to a certified
battery recycler, and the de-contented vehicle is then sent to a certified
destruction facility. All recyclable metals, plastics, fibers, glass and
rubber
are separated for re-use...documented at our National Headquarters under file
#200610091351..."
>
> The best fate for lease-returns is to be evaluated by Toyota: if "good",
they get sent to remote locations, such as Catalina Island, where ironically
all electric comes from diesel generators subsidized by the mainland
ratepayers. If they fail these unstated criteria, and eventually, they are
dismantled, crushed, and, ultimately, JUNKED.
>
> Instead of losing these great cars, and the EV-95 Panasonnic NiMH
batteries that are irreplaceable since Chevron-Ovonyx-Cobasys-ENER-Texaco's
legal
action against Toyota-Panasonic, we'd like to see the leases assumed by an
EV-oriented entity, and, ultimately, purchased for use by individual EV
drivers.
If, in the fullness of time, they get scrapped, there are many parts on board
that might be of interest for EV converters or builders. Especially, the
batteries.
>
> Currently, Toyota wants to control all spare parts and the fate of these
vehicles. Once they are sold, as they should have been originally, their
disposition is up to their owners. For some reason, Toyota hates this idea,
and
is bitterly opposed to letting the vehicles go on the open market.
>
> Next Tuesday, Oct. 17, at 1:30 PM, the LADWP Board has asked Staff to
report on why they were returning these vehicles (Staff stated that they don't
want them, they no longer have a use for them) and to report on the condition
of them, so that the Board can decide whether they should cherry-pick the
"good ones" and dispose of the rest.
>
> Here is the letter I'm sending out:
>
>
> Los Angeles Dept. of Water and Power
> Board of Commissioners
> Barbara Moschos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> TEL 213-367-1356, FAX 213-367-1423
> PLEASE DISTRIBUTE TO THE COMMISSIONERS
>
> RE: 74 fleet lease-return Toyota RAV4-EV
>
> Dear Board of Commissioners,
>
> These 74 RAV4-EV are the last of the fleet of EVs once used by DWP. They
were being returned routinely to Toyota, the current batch of 24 had been
slated to be returned on Sept. 30.
>
> Thank you for asking Staff to report on the condition of the 74 RAV4-EV
currently leased by DWP. Your timely intervention has so far saved these
irreplaceable clean cars from being returned to Toyota and an uncertain fate
--
either donated to far away agencies, used at Toyota plants, or, usually,
dismantled and demolished. At the next meeting, a chilling account from
Toyota
will be read about how Toyota strips and crushes these much-wanted clean
Electric cars.
>
> But these RAV4-EV are not wanted by DWP Staff. Testimony by Staff at the
last meeting indicates that these RAV4-EV no longer meet Staff needs. At the
next meeting, members of the public plan to commit enough resources to
guarantee lease payments and to purchase all the RAV4-EV.
>
> The Board will be asked to transfer the leases to an entity set up for
that purpose. This request will be in accordance with Staff testimony that
with
the limited range and maintenance, the RAV4-EV are a cost item, and were
replaced by rental cars and by a recent purchase of 90 Prius non-plug-in
hybrid
vehicles.
>
> We propose to take that burden from DWP.
>
> After we assume the leases, we will use the existing precedent and request
that Toyota sell them to us at the established residual value of
approximately $22,000 each. Whether this is successful or not is our problem,
not DWP.
>
> We ask for your cooperation in transferring the leases from Toyota to us,
and/or in facilitating the conversion of these leases to purchases, a
precedent set by Toyota and other lease-purchasers in the past.
>
> Thank you very much,
>
> Doug Korthof
> 1020 Mar Vista
> Seal Beach, CA 90740-5842
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> cell phone 714-496-1567
>
> cc. many
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Its only 5 kilowatt. EV's normally are running 30 to 50 kilowatt or more in
battery power. This would require a $40,000.00 Li-Ion pack.
At 5 kw, I could only run my EV at 15 miles at a speed of 30 mph for 30
minutes.
At 60 mph, I am using 30.6 kwh. This would be about 8 minutes of driving
for about 5 miles with a 5kw pack.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR"
<[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 9:36 AM
Subject: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
> In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
> conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
> System retrofit cost: $14,500
> Installation time: 2 hours
> Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
> Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
> Battery replacement cost: $4,000
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery pack
> replacement cost of only $4,000.
>
> If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would
> like to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius
> down the Road
> ...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
> only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
>
> Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems about the same value as other LiIon packs, or maybe a bit more
expensive depending if it has a BMS.
A 5kW pack for $4,000
Valance (at discount prices) would be around $6,000 with BMS (Don, please
correct me where this is wrong).
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steven Lough
Sent: October 12, 2006 8:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid System retrofit cost: $14,500
Installation time: 2 hours
Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles Battery replacement
cost: $4,000
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery pack
replacement cost of only $4,000.
If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would like
to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius down the
Road ...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using only a
trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or, if you are using a text browser (lynx, links, etc.), sometimes you
just highlight to copy and right click to paste (or left click if you've
reversed the mouse buttons),
or sometimes ctrl-shift-Del to copy and ctrl-shift-Insert to paste,
or..., or..., etc.
Depends on distro, browser, etc., etc.
That's why I didn't bother listing it earlier
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> If you are using Linux, then hopefully you are smart enough to know how
>> to
>> cut and paste ;-)
>>
> It's the same, at least with any modern distro.
>> If you are using a Mac, you're on your own.
>>
> Use the "freeway offramp" key instead of CTRL
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> How much gas is a trickle?
> Well, depends how much acceleration you want. You could probably use no
> gas
> at all if you used gentle acceleration.
>
>> Maybe this pack can barely supply enough power to keep the car moving at
>> 30 MPH on the level. And, this is a very efficient vehicle in terms of
>> aerodynamics, etc.
> How do you figure that? A123 cells are extremely powerful, the pack has
> enough power to easily keep it over 100 mph.
How have you determined that?
The add doesn't say anything other than it's a 5kw pack. Maybe it's only a
single string. 5kw isn't enough to get a prius up to 100 mph, even if
it's electronics would allow it to go over 40mph (isn't that where the
computer turns on the ICE whether it's need or not?)
Maybe they meant 5kwh, who knows?
>
>> And, what are the conditions that result in a range of 55 kM ( about 33
>> miles) ? Is it at low speed with a tailwind?
>
> How does it get 30 miles range?
> You said it yourself: "And, this is a very efficient vehicle in terms of
> aerodynamics, etc."
>
> 5000wh / 30 miles = 166 wh/mile. Sounds about right for a Prius and the
> numbers I've seen. I'm sure this is not at some unreasonable speed. But
> the
> Prius motor won't go more than 45 mph or so, I think.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 12:20 PM
> Subject: RE: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
>
>> The answer might lie in the vagueness of this claim.
>> How much gas is a trickle? Is that a metric trickle, or Imperial?
>>
>> Maybe this pack can barely supply enough power to keep the car moving at
>> 30 MPH on the level. And, this is a very efficient vehicle in terms of
>> aerodynamics, etc.
>>
>> And, what are the conditions that result in a range of 55 kM ( about 33
>> miles) ? Is it at low speed with a tailwind?
>>
>> This may be mostly advertising hype. It wouldn't be the first time.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Get today's hot entertainment gossip
>> http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 914 is a unibody so there aren't a lot of panels you can replace.
Fenders, hood, and trunk lid are about it.
If you've been following the recent discussion on fiberglass, you've
probably noticed that fiberglass isn't that much lighter than steel when
designed for daily use. In fact many times the commercially available
stuff is heavier.
Even if you put the big bucks into buying really high quality fiber
panels, I doubt you'd save more than 50 lbs, probably less.
The 914 starts out a bit heavier than a Ghia, but it also has a heavier
engine (914 uses a Type IV motor and Ghia uses a type I). As I recall the
complete Type IV is about 150 lbs heavier. Then you have the other parts,
the heat exchangers on the 914 are MUCH longer and heavier, etc. A lot
(most?) of the Ghias had Carbs, where as most of the 914s have fuel
injection, so you have the fuel pump, injection computer, etc.
I wouldn't be surpised if the stripped weights are almost the same between
the two.
> Hi,
>
> I was curious from the Porsche conversion guru's how to lighten up a
> Porsche 914. I'm looking at buying one and it has the usual belly pan
> rust so I'll need to replace that probably from auto atlanitc.com. Does
> anyone have recommendations on fiberglas etc body parts replacements
> that would make it lighter. It weighs 2100lbs start weight and the Ghia
> is 1900 lbs but the Porsche looks like a more fun car with the
> removeable roof so I'll probably buy that tomorrow.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call
> rates.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most common way to avoid lethal voltages is to
have an enclosed battery box containing ALL
batteries, PLUS the contactors.
Look at factory EVs and conversions.
It is rather simple and normal practice to
have the car "off" while working on it - even the
12V aux battery gets routinely disconnected in the
service descriptions. As long as the battery box
stays shut, no lethal voltages are present and
testing for them (in case a contactor fails) is
usually also covered in the same paragraph that
describes the disconnect of the 12V aux battery
in the service manual...
In conversions with split boxes this is not harder
to do, as a contactor in each box solves it.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 10:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 42 volts + boost?
Mike Golub asked:
> I was wondering for safety sake if I could design a
> battery system on 42 volts?
> Supposedly 42volts DC won't kill you?
That's essentially been done...decades ago, sort of.
My 1921 Milburn originally came with a 48v bank (8batts) in the front, 36v
(6batts) in the rear. For 1st and 2nd speeds, the pack is electrically
configured as a 42v pack by switching all but one battery in the front pack
in parallel with the rear pack (plus the one 6v battery in front). For
3rd/4th speeds, the banks are switched in series.
This was common as it allowed mechanical speed control.
In your case, you could do something similar if you liked, charging 2 banks
of 42v with a low voltage charger, then, when it's time to run, your master
contactor (mechanical or electromechanical) switches the 2 banks in series
and then enables your 84v motor controller. Not sure what you gain by doing
this though, since while you can get away with a lower voltage charger, you
would have to dish out higher charging current.
It is a good idea to limit the number of places on your vehicle that someone
can be exposed to the lethal voltages. Separating the pack into substring
banks is common and a good idea for safety. I don't think anyone here would
dispute this as a good practice.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
