EV Digest 6014
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 9Electric Progress Report -- Ring Roller
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Cheap motors for Lawnmowers, E-bikes
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: finally working
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: What EV would you do with big funds?
by =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Andrej_=A9kvorc?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Buss Bars
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: What EV would you do with big funds?
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Cheap motors for Lawnmowers, E-bikes
by "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: #22
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Carbon-foam battery
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: GWiZ 5th gear review
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Buss Bars
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: What EV would you do with big funds?
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Wiring a Ceramic Heater
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: GWiZ 5th gear review
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
You've assumed an example to illustrate a situation where Peukert
correction may provide little benefit, however, I think the important
thing to note is that the *worst* case is that including the correction
provides little benefit in certain situations, but in many other
situations the correction will improve the accuracy/usefulness of the
guage. At no point does including it make the guage *less* useful.
Don't get me wrong Roger, I'm not against this feature and it
will be implemented in EVision. What I see though is the
situation when relying on it will mislead you worse than if you
have no estimator at all.
I think the usefulness of a vehicle's fuel guage comes from the fact
that while it may drop more rapidly when you consume energy/fuel at a
faster rate, in the ICE case, when the guage indicates 1/2, you can look
at how far you have travelled and know that you can go about the same
distance more before running out of energy/fuel. This is the behaviour
that an EV fuel guage should be striving to provide.
That is assuming that second part of the trip will have the same driving
pattern that the first one. Exactly the root of the problem. People want
accurate distance estimator no matter how they are going to drive next
half hour. No software can predict it, so *this* is what I mean by
useless in prediction. IF you drive steady, yes, I see the benefits.
But this is big "if".
You are correct in observing that in order for the EV guage to correct
the energy remaining indication based on the consumption rate, it must
first observe the rate of consumption over some interval. The 4 minute
window may be referring to [one of] the interval[s] you can configure
the E-Meter for, but this does not mean it is the only, or the optimal,
window that all fuel guages must use.
Yes, obviously. The software should have configurable (and may be
adaptive) averaging interval. But no interval can predict your
mood for the next 5 min - exactly very common situation Mike
Chancey described - he just decided to take a freeway today
instead of slow roads. All your computations are down the tubes.
A useful feature would be for the guage to 'learn'/remember the average
consumption over the last 1 (or N) trips and use that value to base its
initial caapcity remaining estimate on when you start the next trip,
until it has a chance to observe the actual consumption rate for this
[portion of this] trip.
Understood. But realize this king of gadget average person may rely on,
will create disservice by lying. If you don't know your range, you're
careful and may not take a risk. IF you have gadget reporting you
have 5 miles, you'd think you have indeed 5 miles no matter how
fast. IT won't tell you "you have 5 miles but only if you drive 35 mph".
I suppose you could report it that way...
It might also be useful to address the 'shrinking/expanding' fuel tank
effect by having the guage provide both at 'miles remaining to empty'
indication that is updated over relatively short intervals, while the
fuel guage itself updates more slowly over longer intervals. Or, have
the software control the rate at which the fuel tank size varies
(perhaps allowing for rapid decreases, but slower increases) to make the
variation less dramatic.
While the fact that your EV's fuel guage might go *upwards* while you
are driving as a result of pulling off the freeway onto surface streets
is completely unlike an ICE's fuel guage behaviour, I would suggest this
is completely acceptable and appropriate behaviour provided the guage
accurately reflects the energy remaining while I'm on the freeway as
well as when I am on surface streets.
Give little more credit to people's intelligence - they will learn
their gauge quickly. Very quickly after getting stuck on the
freeway :-)
I agree with that, except that if it cost more because of
amortization of the software development time, I'd rather
not to pay for something I won't be using.
Well, just how many of your eVision guages do you *personally* plan to
buy from yourself? ;^>
That's why Peukert correction will be included in EVision, while
it's not in BRUSA counters.
If you intend to sell it to *others*, then what is more important is
what *they* will be using.
Sure. IF people is willing to buy a lying gadget, I'll make
lying gadget :-)
How many Brusa Ah counters (no Peukert) have
you sold to EVer's compared to how many Evers have bought E-Meters
(includes Peukert and a fuel guage display in addition to uncompensated
Ah/Wh counting)?
Don't know, not many. But *definitely* not because lack of this
correction - it just can't compete in price for non-technical reasons.
If BRUSA counter would cost half of e-meter's you wouldn't be
asking this question. So, it's matter of money, not features.
People would do corrections in their head, trust me.
(Please note that I am not trying to tell you what features you should
include in your product; I am suggesting that Peukert compensation is a
useful feature for an EV fuel guage, whether yours or someone else's.)
I *want* you to tell me what features to include, because you're
the ultimate user. I polled the list a while ago about this, and
no one objected having Peukert correction, so it will be there.
I was explaining position of BRUSA why they didn't include it, and
I can see very clearly valid reasons for not including it.
This doesn't mean I'll follow their logic, just that logic is
sound and makes sense to me (as well as yours :-)).
Cheers,
Roger.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Victor,
I understand your reasoning but it is backwards, this is
exactly the same for a gas car and people are used to
a gas gauge that says the tank is 1/4 full meaning that
they can drive a certain distance at a certain speed
and when they start driving fast, their range goes down
while if they drive careful their range increases.
They are not used to a gauge that shows 1/4 full and
suddenly their engine dies.
They will get use to it, because no Peukert correction
can fix it. See my response to Roger.
Ralise, you CANNOT show 1/4 full - whether it's true
depends on unknown future driving pattern.
Using historical pattern only *assumes* you will keep driving
the same way, and provided this assumption is true,
Peukert correction works.
But it's not (in general) valid assumption.
The Ah can be displayed separately (and no Peukert correction
is messing with Ah or kWh measurements if that is what you
though I suggested), I simply intend to have a fuel gauge
that show 1/2 when the battery has an estimated amount
of fuel equal to the used amount of fuel.
Amount of fuel is easy. Amount of miles is difficult.
I can precisely tell you you've spent 23.64Ah and you
have 15.87Ah left. How does this help you?
It doesn't. It *only* helps in case if you keep driving
the same way you did, you still can cover a bit less
miles than you did.
But this is not what people want - they want to know how far
they can go no matter how they will drive.
If you estimate that you have 1/2 gallon left in a gas car and
it gets 20 MPG then you know you need to drive careful if the
gas station is 8 miles away. If you start racing you may not
make it. No gas car driver needs to be told such common things.
I want to see the readings in an EV to feel and act in the
same way. If there is a fuel gauge that can mean empty when
it shows only 3/4 energy used, that is confusing for everybody
except some of the EV techies on this list.
Trust me I know precisely what the issue with range estimation
is, and how Peukert correction can help. It's a matter of making
software to cheat more or less, because in general nothing can
predict energy consumption per mile. Gas cars can get away
with this because consumption difference in high speeds vs low
speeds is far less pronounced than in EV case.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
If past current consumption level cannot accurately predict what
current is needed in the future, then Peukert's cannot accurately
predict remaining capacity & range.
Danny
That was exactly my point, but since People still believe
Peukert helps more than hurts, it will be available.
That's why BRUSA counter just shows Wh consumed, period. Simple.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the kudos. You raise a good question. I tried to start with a clean
sheet of paper for design, and I did consider using a slice of pipe. One of the
biggest reasons for using a ring roller is that the attach bolts are outside
the adaptor (unless you are lucky with the pipe size), making it easier to make
and attach. Here are more reasons for and against the choice:
Points for ring roller and against pipe:
* You have to cut a curved surface on the pipe, but cutting a flat piece for
the ring roller is much easier
* After your first slice off the pipe, you are going to have 2 rough edges to
machine smooth (but not if you weld), but just one with the ring roller
* It is going to be hard to cut a pipe as accurately as a flat piece
* You'd need a big bandsaw to cut a slice of pipe, or to use a plasma cutter or
steel cutting wheel (not as straight a cut)
* Any bandsaw or scroll saw would narrow a flat strip of steel
* You have to pick fixed sizes with the pipe (like 10 inches or 12 inches)
* With the ring roller, you can do the perfect size, so the tranny-to-adaptor
bolts are outside and easy to reach. If your pipe is an inch too big, you have
to have the bolts go inside the adaptor, so it is a bit harder to make and
attach (at least for my donor car). This picture I took of an Evolks adaptor
shows how nice it is to have the bolts outside the adaptor (the bolt with a 1/2
circle head that goes through the tranny bellhousing, not the motor bolt):
<http://9electric.evforge.net/evolks/HPIM2596.jpg>. You can see how the design
would be more complicated if the spacer ring was bigger, as the bolts would
have to go inside the spacer ring.
* A strip of metal you ring roll is a bit cheaper than a slice of pipe (but
maybe only $20 or $40 cheaper)
* Using the ring roller is generally a tiny bit lighter (just a few ounces)
* With a ring roller you can pick a custom spacer size that maximizes the
strength of the adaptor
* Instead of machining in a centering lip, I can ring roll one from 1/4 x 1/4
steel, weld it on, and then machine it concentric
Points for the pipe and against the ring roller:
* You have to weld a 2 or 3 inch seam on the ring roller metal strip
* You need a ring roller
* It takes 5 or 10 minutes to roll
As long as I'm on a roll here, why steel and not Aluminum?
* Steel is cheaper
* Steel is easier to bend
* I have to have 1/4 inch steel scatter shield per SCTA racing rules, so the
adaptor does double duty (it would be a shame to put a heavy 1/4 inch steel
shield around an aluminum adaptor)
* Steel is easier to weld
Aluminum does have the advantage of being easier to machine.
Aluminum might have less of a dissimilar metals corrosion problem (depending on
what your tranny and motor are made of).
----- Original Message ----
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 12:04:41 PM
Subject: RE: 9Electric Progress Report -- Ring Roller
David Dymaxion wrote:
> For anyone that got discouraged the first time: The page
> loads much faster now, I accidentally used the full size
> images for the thumbnails. All fixed now.
>
> http://9electric.evforge.net/Tools/ringroller
I'll echo the others here: cool, very cool! Looks like it was both fun
and educational, and you have a useful tool to show for your effort!
> I needed to roll a strip of steel into a hoop for my
> spacer.
> Thinking EV conversion businesswise for a moment, a tool
> like this could be a step towards making adaptors more
> inexpensively.
I'm not sure this is really the case. I believe that commercial
adapters that use such spacers actually take the approach of simply
cutting an appropriate length slice from a piece of heavy wall tubing.
When you are making a single adapter, the cost of buying some minimum
length of heavy wall tubing might make it more economical to roll the
spacer from bar stock (provided you can find bar stock of the
appropriate width), but if you expect to make multiple adapters the cost
of the tubing should become a much smaller issue.
I think a significant advantage of the tubing approach is that you can
easily slice a spacer ring of the exact (and different) width required
for each specific vehicle and motor combination from the same piece of
tubing stock.
But, who knows, maybe you have found a better way to skin this
particular cat! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
For all the talk about the manufacturers not knowing how to build EVs. A lot
of this could be put to rest if you owned one for several years and drove
it. The Ranger and S-10 both have very accurate SOC gauges. The Ford is about
right to the mile of what you have left. It seems to calculate over a period
of several days and readjust if your driving conditions or battery changes.
Don, you should know more how their SOC works. You think it's very
accurate because the car dies when SOC meter it predicts it will?
No. The SOC meter counts back conservative capacity number based on
the worst battery and when meter rolls to zero *it* kills the controller
making
illusion of spot on accurate estimation. In reality amount of Ah left
in the battery could move you further, they just disallowed this.
That way you're never stranded. The price for it - unused capacity,
sometimes less sometimes more of it (still unpredictable!) depending
on how you were driving.
If you'd reverse engineer Ranger's charger software, you'd clearly
see this.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
...
if it cost more because of amortization of the software development
time, I'd rather not to pay for something I won't be using.
Ach, now ye sound just lik the rest of us cheapskates, laddie! :-)
Hmm - this I think is first time someone accuses me in being cheap :-)
Seriously, while the software guy who works with me on this
does it for free, I agree - large benefit at negligible cost.
When I'll start paying per hour of his programming efforts,
the cost won't be negligible...
Any takers willing to contribute?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe it may be useful to read the slope by either barometric
pressure altimeter or GPS, the speed, and the acceleration.
With a smart enough measure of data, you can determine how much power
was used for lifting against gravity versus aero and bearing/wheel
drag. The data can actually infer the car's curb weight from the data.
It should be able to give you some useful efficiency information and
additional range calculation data. It could tell you how much power
you're wasting in braking too.
Danny
Cory Cross wrote:
This idea would still have the limit of not showing
the range at a different speed (as Roger points out below), but it would
provide the most data to the human to aid his/her estimation of
remaining range, with everything that's predictable (temperature, age,
Peukert's, resistance, etc.) factored out automatically.
Cory Cross
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, I';m speculating here. AS&S states that the motor has 2150 oz/in of
torque. I'm going to assume that is the stall torque when run on 24V.
If so, then the motor probably draws 250 amps stalled. The 10ga wire is
probably sized to handle that....briefly.
Pushing these motors to 48V will probably push more current through them,
but you said you'll have 3 motors on the bike? That's 750 amps already.
What are you planning on using for batteries if you are expecting to draw
MORE than 750 amps without sagging down to 24V?
Four Orbitals will do it, but that's almost 200lbs of batteries.
Anyway, I'd bet if you pushed much more than 250 amps through this motor,
you'd run the risk of permanently weakening the magnets, even if you
didn't melt the windings.
> Well the idea was to have more amp flow to the motor. I'm only running
> the motors for 1/8 mile runs, not continous so im not sure if the motor
> would burn out or not with higher current. I'll also be running the
> motors at 48 volts and limiting the rpm to 4k to avoid self destruction.
>
> Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Why would you want to change
> the pigtails? Granted lareger wires are less
> likely to melt, but all that means is that you melt the windings INSIDE
> the motor instead.
>
>> I just bought one of these motors also, but i got mine from american
>> science and surplus for 50 bucks. :) I'm also wondering what kind of
>> peak performance i can get out of this motor, im lookin to use 3 for a
>> drag pocket bike. I'll be putting on larger cable of course, probably 6
>> gauge, maybe 4 if i can fit it in there somehow. Let us know how these
>> motors work out for you.
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> HI Folks,
>>
>> A while back someone posted a link to a surplus 24V DC lawn mower motor
>> at
>> Supluscenter. Silly me I went out and bought one, before I checked
>> around.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, this is a great motor, and surplus center had them
>> for
>> a decent price. The thing is, the day after I ordered it, I found the
>> EXACT same motor at American Science and Surplus for $20 less.
>> http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=18&category=173
>>
>> This is a 24V DC 1.5hp motor. It's a totally enclosed, non venting
>> motor,
>> so it must be pretty efficient. I can't test this right now, because I'm
>> in the middle of moving house.
>>
>> Anyway, the motor weighs 12lbs including the large aluminum flange. This
>> is actually the end bell of the motor, so you can't just remove it. You
>> could trim it down though, if you wanted to.
>> The wires coming from the motor are 10ga, which according to my charts
>> are
>> good for about 55 amps. That sounds about right for 1.5 hp output.
>> Apparently the motors are made by Tecumseh(at least that's what's
>> printed
>> on the box they come in), and I believe they were used in Toro battery
>> powered mowers.
>>
>> Obviously these would be excellent for a battery powered mower.
>>
>> I'm planning on seeing how well they work on my trike, I'll let you
>> know.
>> The 7/8" dia shaft should make it easy to find sprockets, from go-carts,
>> etc.
>>
>> Anyway, $50 seems like a really good price for a 1.5 hp motor.
>>
>> Cheers, Pete.
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor said:
> Amount of fuel is easy. Amount of miles is difficult.
I never said I wanted a "Miles Remaining" gauge.
If you can make a meter learn your typical driving pattern
or even if you can have it average and show you a guess of
how far you can drive _if you continue to drive like you did_
then that is great.
But all I said that an ordinary driver has today is a *fuel*
gauge. This means: he has an estimation of how much remains
in relation to how much he already consumed. He is used to
such an indicator, so let's give him at least that.
Let it show Empty when he must stop driving.
Give him a warning when it reaches 1/4 left or so
and by all means - estimate the remaining capacity by the
way he has been driving up to this point.
If he suddenly starts climbing a 10% grade, the gauge will
plummet. If he gets off the freeway and starts coasting
on surface streets, his gauge will move down REAL slow,
as suddenly the available capacity is larger and it is
used up slower.
But please, let's not make the gauge jump around.
My current meter does that and it's awful - I have no
clue how much has been used and what is remaining when
every time I push the go-pedal the meter falls down and when
I release it, the meter starts climbing.
That is not even close to a SOC (which is what it pretends to be)
Only when serious energy is put back into the pack, such
as a long regenerative decent, then it is normal to have
the gauge climb as now truly more energy is available.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems to be true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debugging
http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jeffery/aadebug.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 10:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: finally working
I was told in school that the term "debugging" came from the original
enormous relay-based computers which actually had bugs crawl into the
relay contacts.
Could be an urban legend, though.
Danny
Ted C. wrote:
> Debugging is always fun.
>
> (Sorry, I had too)
>
> Ted
> Olympia, WA
> N47 02.743 W122 53.772
> Thank GOD for Thomas Edison. Without him we would all be watching TV
> by candle light.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Calvin King" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 8:51 PM
> Subject: finally working
>
>
>> A few weeks back I wrote how my car simply would not start. After a
>> lot of help from David Brandt and a whole lot of going around in
>> circles with my meter, I am finally mobil again.
>> I finally narrowed it down to the contactor even though it gave every
>> appearance of working. Following David's suggestion I removed it to
>> clean any possible corrosion buildup. I did not find much in the
>> way of corrosion on the contacts, but I did not a dead bug caught
>> between the bottom contacts. After removing the bug and cleaning
>> the contacts. I am back on the road.
>> Thanks to all for the overwhelming support and interest.
>>
>> Calvin King
>> Leesburg, GA
>> '81 Jet Electrica 96 volts
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i'm ne around here (still :-D ) and i'm reading mails for now and post a
question or two... but i think i can write my perfect ev :-D
Hyundai Elantra
AC setup 100 kW enough for me :-D (now i have 1.6 l gas 77 kW engine
with 0-60 mph in 11-12 sec :-D )
Lithium pack for battery ... and i'm happy...
batteries woould go in the place where gas tank is and some of them with
engine also to get better weight distribution...
but i would want to still to transport 4-5 persons, and to have my trunk
available to me :-D .. with 13 k USD for new car and 40 k USD for the ev
parts i think it can realy be done :-D with a/c, abs brakse, airbags and
so on :-D
range... 200 miles? i think... or more.. on this part i have to learn a
lot..... what range do you think i would get with this kind of setup?
Hi EVerybody,
I've been wondering what type of a setup I'd do with virtually
unlimited funds. I'd like to hear what type of an EV all of you would
put together with a big chunk of money. Maybe "unlimited" is a bit
too lofty. How about you get to pick your donor car (no limit on $
for that), and $40k for everything else. That will at least make it
somewhat creative and semi-practical.
Bonus points for the coolest EV at the lowest price :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm using 1" x 1/16" Cu bar with T-105 batteries in a 114V system. They
are easy to bend by hand, and sharp corners can be made by clamping the
bar in a vise. Drilling accurate holes with a hand drill was problematic.
A punch helped, but the holes still came out a bit sloppy.
The bars are covered in clear heatshrink to prevent accidental shorts, and
the exposed ends are covered in anti-oxidant compound. Each bar has at
least two bends so it can flex with any battery movement. I can easily
move adjacent batteries by 1" or more without fear of snapping a lead
post. My average current draw is 125A, but I've done 350A for over a
minute and the bars are never warmer than the batteries. Cu is a great
heatsink, so maybe they cool down by the time I open the hood...
$30 was enough to connect 19 batteries with lots of material left over.
It's also great for wiring circuit breakers, contactors, and shunts into
small spaces. The best part - no crimping lugs onto 2/0 cable! So much for
the crimp vs solder debate :)
Ampacity charts show 1" x 1/16" as:
187A (30C temp rise)
250A (50C temp rise)
285A (65C temp rise)
3/16" might be too stiff to flex with battery movement, but you could
leave space between batteries to allow them to expand without stressing
the posts. Something like 1/4" wooden or plastic spacers between the
batteries (at the bottom only) to keep them from shifting around in your
battery box.
My battery wiring can be seen here - http://www.evalbum.com/776
Adrian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anything that can get at least 150km's reliably is a good EV for me. I
wouldn't need a gas car then (well diesel in my case).
That 150km's includes travelling in all sorts of terrain.
On 13/10/06, Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi EVerybody,
I've been wondering what type of a setup I'd do with virtually unlimited
funds. I'd like to hear what type of an EV all of you would put
together with a big chunk of money. Maybe "unlimited" is a bit too
lofty. How about you get to pick your donor car (no limit on $ for
that), and $40k for everything else. That will at least make it
somewhat creative and semi-practical.
Bonus points for the coolest EV at the lowest price :)
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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Good find, and good price for me to get a spare, maybe.
I use it on an actual 24V lawn mower
http://ecloud.org/index.php?title=Electric_Sensation_lawnmower
It runs rather hot (too hot to touch), so I worry about it a little
and was thinking it might be good to put some cooling fins on it.
It's a little strange it runs so hot at its designed voltage and in
its designed application. The base is just right for replacing a gas
engine on any gas mower, and easy to drill in case you need extra bolt
holes, but the existing ones lined up fine on my deck. One very nice
feature is that there are battery holders built in to the base, for
batteries with about a 3 x 7 inch footprint. The batteries in my
other electric mower (Sears) are this size. I installed bigger (30
AH?) ones on my mower for now, because they were available, but they
are really too heavy and it's a lot of work to push the mower around.
I was thinking if I'm going to work that hard I might as well use a
plain old human-powered push mower. :-) So would recommend to use
lighter batteries that actually fit the holders. But you still have
to come up with a hold down method. I suppose OEM mowers with this
mower probably had hold-downs that clipped onto the bottoms of the
holders somehow.
On 10/13/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
HI Folks,
A while back someone posted a link to a surplus 24V DC lawn mower motor at
Supluscenter. Silly me I went out and bought one, before I checked
around.
Don't get me wrong, this is a great motor, and surplus center had them for
a decent price. The thing is, the day after I ordered it, I found the
EXACT same motor at American Science and Surplus for $20 less.
http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=18&category=173
This is a 24V DC 1.5hp motor. It's a totally enclosed, non venting motor,
so it must be pretty efficient. I can't test this right now, because I'm
in the middle of moving house.
Anyway, the motor weighs 12lbs including the large aluminum flange. This
is actually the end bell of the motor, so you can't just remove it. You
could trim it down though, if you wanted to.
The wires coming from the motor are 10ga, which according to my charts are
good for about 55 amps. That sounds about right for 1.5 hp output.
Apparently the motors are made by Tecumseh(at least that's what's printed
on the box they come in), and I believe they were used in Toro battery
powered mowers.
Obviously these would be excellent for a battery powered mower.
I'm planning on seeing how well they work on my trike, I'll let you know.
The 7/8" dia shaft should make it easy to find sprockets, from go-carts,
etc.
Anyway, $50 seems like a really good price for a 1.5 hp motor.
Cheers, Pete.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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Hi Sharon,
do you have a Photo album of all your EV babies ?
congratulation on your good EV work !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "dm3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 4:08 AM
Subject: #22
> Any of the 22 owners on the list?
> Jimmy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Sharon G Alexander
> Sent: October 11, 2006 6:45 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: #22
>
> ,,Hi Number 22 for a conversion just made it to our shop, we have 2 in
> there
> now, one almost finished. one 1/2 way done. So it will sit out side till
> next week when we can start on it,,Its much better building them than
> talking about tail gates or tail lights.
> LOL LOL
>
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I just go an email. They will be supplying OEM's so nothing for a while.
So unless you hae a friend at Electrolux........Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:34 PM
Subject: Carbon-foam battery
> This company claims to be able to develop a superior battery with
> carbon-graphite foam plates (whatever that means):
> http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=13137
> <http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=13137>
>
> Short on any useful details however.
>
> Danny
>
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i think this was not biased at all and it's a very important opinion as it
come from an "alien people" for us
which are living ina perfect pluged world :^)
it clearly and simply show ...with 1 pence humor, poor childs...what this
Gwiz (Reva) car can and cannot do, that we need charging
infrastructures to bring EV available for everybody, changing friends look
about tiny city cars etc...
For me its a very educational video about what non EV passionnate can feel
about little city EV as such.
We need to learn from this and adapt our speech, products, etc. to attract
these people to the good side of the Ev-force...
cordialement,
Philippe, about 860km distance from London without recharging, helped by
most powerful world EV...
French TGV train :^)
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: GWiZ 5th gear review
> Since his golf game was of much more importance than his children he could
> have squished them into an even smaller bag. :-) Sorry, just my sick sense
> of humor after watching an obviously and incredibly biased piece of work.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 4:05 PM
> Subject: RE: GWiZ 5th gear review
>
>
> > Ouch, not very flattering.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Mike Ellis
> > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 6:21 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: GWiZ 5th gear review
> >
> > http://youtube.com/watch?v=985zhLOo2XY
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.2/472 - Release Date:
10/11/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.2/472 - Release Date: 10/11/2006
>
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> Thank GOD for Thomas Edison. Without him we would all be watching TV by
> candle light.
Thank GOD for Tesla. Without him we would have a powerstation on every
block.
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I'd have 10 series wound motors all joined up in line and connected to a 9
inch diff in a litte fiat niki and have a nuclear reactor in the front.
On 13/10/06, Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Oct 12, 2006, at 8:58 PM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
> How about you get to pick your donor car (no limit on $ for that), and
> $40k for everything else.
I'd start with a Tesla Roadster or a Tango as the donor, and spend the
$40,000 on a PV system for the house :)
Actually, I'd be tempted to do some angel investing and give the money
to folks like Lee Hart and Jerry Dycus and have them build me something
nice, like a Sunrise and/or a Freedom EV.
With a virtually unlimited budget, I wouldn't bother with a conversion.
I'd get a purpose-built EV, either one of the currently available
models or one on the drawing board.
But that's not what you're asking for, is it? OK, for a conversion I'd
want something like ProEV's Electric Imp. I love my Subaru Impreza and
would be tickled with an electric version with racecar performance and
an advanced battery pack.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
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My heater cores from a Holmes ceramic space heaters have 5 terminals. The
heating elements are the thin white ceramic pieces sandwiched BETWEEN the
big aluminum heatsinks... So there is a heating element between each
adjacent wire (4 total). 1,3,5 to + and 2,4 to - should work just fine. Be
careful as the wiring tabs are somewhat fragile.
Heater safety precautions:
-fuse your high voltage power leads
-use a DC rated relay (KTA and EV Source have suitable relays)
-wire the heating elements so they won't turn on unless the blower fan is
running
-use a thermal cutoff switch to prevent ductwork from melting
-make sure high voltage wiring can't be accidentally touched/kicked/cut by
people in the car
Safety is a key issue with heater elements, as they pose a serious risk of
FIRE and ELECTROCUTION.
There is a basic heater schematic from the Cameron Motor Works new beetle
conversion here:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CabinHeater_install.html
I don't know if the snubbers (1uF cap and 100 Ohm resistor) are really
needed with PTC elements. Anyone? Anyone?
I used a metal fuse box from the local electrical supply house ($12,
approx 10" x 4" x 2"). It holds 2 cartridge fuses (125VDC rating) and
three 10A relays from EV Source. The cover swings up to install/replace
the fuses, and an additional plate must be removed to access the relays
(some boxes use this space for circuit breakers).
I modified my car's heater controls so that moving the temperature slider
activates 1 to 3 switches. Each switch activates some of the heater
elements, so I can leave the fan on a higher speed without overheating the
cabin. Power for the relays comes from the fan speed switch, so turning
the fan off turns the heater off.
My car's fan switch supplies power to a resistor network that sets the
blower fan speed. Position 1 sends 12V to the LOW wire, position 2 sends
12V to the MED wire, etc.
--/\/\/\----/\/\/\----/\/\/\----[blower motor]----Ground
| | | |
| | | |
LOW MED HIGH Hurricane
My low voltage relay wiring looks like this:
LOW -|>|--------\
|
MED -|>|--------+
|
HI -|>|--------+--(temp snap switch)--+--(temp slider switch 1)--(relay
1)--Ground
| |
MAX -|>|--------/ +--(temp slider switch 2)--(relay
2)--Ground
|
+--(temp slider switch 3)--(relay
3)--Ground
--|>|-- represents a diode. I used 1A diodes that I had on hand. The
relay coils draw about 100mA each.
The only issue with this setup is that it doesn't actually detect whether
the blower fan is running, only if it is getting 12V. The heater elements
can remain ON if the blower motor fails! However, my temperature snap
switches open at 155-165F and I can actually get them to trip if I run the
blower fan at MAX for a while then switch it to LOW. A higher temp switch
would be nice, but I'm not taking that @#$% air box out again!
Getting the heater/defroster to work was one of the most difficult parts
of building my EV. So much duct work, vacuum hose, and wiring crammed into
that little box in front of the gear shift...
Good luck!
Adrian
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Okay, so a mixed review - but I think that this did show the G-Wiz in
a fairly honest way. It is only really useful as a car if you live
in a busy city. It is small, and it is on the slow side for fast roads.
I think this is the first big test-drive on TV for the G-Wiz
(certainly in the UK)
I have talked to several people since then and heard only "positive"
things about electric cars being cool rather than small and horrid.
Fifth gear has become the only car show in the UK to tackle polution
with the show having several interviews in the current season -
including Al Gore and a section on Bio Diesel. Previously to this car
shows in the UK were all about big idiots driving fast in big,
expensive cars. It's nice to see Fifth Gear put their heads over the
parapet for a while.
I think rather than moaning about the review we could perhaps support
shows who feature EVs by suggesting other vehicles they may like to
drive to dispel the myths. For example - has anyone talked to Fifth
Gear about the Tesla? - or perhaps the Vectrix. I know Fifth Gear do
Motorcycle things from time to time!
Nikki.
DC [EMAIL
PROTECTED])¢Ë\¢{Z{~Û×^g¬±¨ ~æjÛ.r¬jvµ§!y×âæ¯qªÝ 3 ~æjÛbâ²Û¶Èì¹çn¢yriÇ ¦ÓË StÈ*.®,¶)à±Ø¬¦V²¶¬ë,j²¢êæj)i®+jh¬lzÛh±éÝ<°51LãKa©Ý籧cºËb
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