EV Digest 6016
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Wiring a Ceramic Heater
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Cheap motors for Lawnmowers, E-bikes
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Buss Bars
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: #22
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What EV would you do with big funds?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wiring a Ceramic Heater
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Buss Bars
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: E-volks now offering a series motor
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Wiring a Ceramic Heater
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lighter Porsche 914
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: lee's emeter companion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 42 volts + boost?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Cheap motors for Lawnmowers, E-bikes
by john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: E-volks now offering a series motor
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Wiring a Ceramic Heater
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Buss Bars
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Electrovair Corrections
by Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: LA DWP Rav4-EVs Comming OF LEASE
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ron Freund)
20) Plexiglas Battery Box
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Buss Bars
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Depends on you pack voltage.
If it's close to 120V (say up to 144V)
then you can follow the original wiring pattern.
If you are interested in getting a "half power mode"
when you don't need scorching heat or if your pack
is well over the original 120V like 192V or around,
then you better wire it by skipping one wire
every side:
- positive
- not connect
- negative
- not connect
- positive
NOTE that with 3 wires you have 2 cells, with 5 wires
there are 4 cells, otherwise you cannot power one cell,
you always need 1 wire more than the nr of cells.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Brandt
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 5:12 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Wiring a Ceramic Heater
Yep, that's it. switch polarity every terminal, winding up with 1,3,and 5
being one and 2 and 4 being the opposite polarity.
Yep, a fuse and a relay rated for pack voltage. KTA's relay package
includes arc snubbers and a fuse for both the positive and negative side.
Add a fuseholder and you have all the parts you need.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Chris Sutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 12:55:37 AM
Subject: Wiring a Ceramic Heater
I just got my 120v 1500 watt DC ceramic heater, and I'm not 100% sure
how to wire it up.
The other heater I have (which I took apart) has 3 "cells", and 3
leads. The 2 outside leads are wired to positive, and the middle is
negative.
This heater core has 5 cells and 5 leads. I did a little googling
for ceramic heaters but never found anything which said specifically
how to wire them. I guessing that I alternative positive and negative
across the leads.
Postive to 1 3 and 5, and negative to 2 and 4. Is this correct?
Do I need to do anything special other than putting a fuse inline to
the battery pack, and probably a relay for the on-off switch?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, my friend has a geo metro ice car and he likes to get the best mpg
possible with it. To aid himself in this quest he ran a vacuum line off of
the ice into the dash and attached a simple vacuum guage to it. He watches
the vacuum guage and the more he steps on the throttle the higher it
reads,He claims awesome mpg with his careful driving and has the same setup
in his volvo.
Mike young-solectria force cars.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here (not that it's worth much
around
here).
I have an 88 BMW 325, and one handy feature it has is a gauge that tells
me
what my current MPG consumption is. (I think it's based on RPM and MPH,
but
it could be something more complex).
This little gauge has an enormous psychological effect on me. If I really
step on the gas, the thing drops to sometimes under 5 MPG, if I let it
coast, I can get it to say 50 MPG, but on a normal straight away at about
40
mph, it stays at around 30.
With the cost of gas, believe me, I try to keep that needle as high up in
those numbers as possible, and it's really affected the way I drive the
car.
I think that providing an estimate of the remaining "tank" or time left
driving based on your current driving behavior would also have this
effect.
If I were to step on the pedal and see that needle tell me I've got 10
minutes of driving like this left, I'd let off and breathe easier when it
told me I had 45 minutes of driving left (or whatever it would be).
Just a thought.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The whole point in having outside wiring no thicker than
inside (motor) wiring is that when it gets hot and starts
burning up the isolation, you will get an advanced
warning if its the outside wiring when this happens.
Switch off and cool down and nothing serious has happened
to your motor.
Since it's a totally enclosed motor, you won't know if it
is suffering until it stops. You better have an external
warning signal from smelly wires to your motor or a
decently sized breaker or a controller with amp limiting.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 11:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cheap motors for Lawnmowers, E-bikes
> AS&S told me that the torque rating of 2150 oz/in was a continous torque
> rating at the rpm of 3200 i believe it was.
Can't be continuous. That would work out to almost 7hp.
> Anyhow, wouldn't having larger wire improve the
> power output of the motor, and resist heating of the motor wires?
Nope, not really. Total length of both pigtails added together is about 3
feet. That works out to 0.0029967 ohms of resistance. 6ga will be about
1/2 of that.
Thew difference will get maybe 0.5% more power out of the motor and this
is only at really high current levels. At normal power levels, it's maybe
0.2%.
It would help with the heating a lot at the really high current levels,
however the 10ga wires would probably melt shortly before the internal
windings did. Switching to 6a means that the internal windings melt
first. Your choice.
> I am currently planning on using 660 1600 mah gp 160sck nicad cells that
> can do 30 amps continous. I'm figuring each cell will give me 48 watts
> peak. Performance at 60 amps the voltage drops to .8 , so about 31.6 kw
> peak power. So the configuration will be 60 cells in series, then 11 of
> those in parallel, so under full load the voltage drops to 48 and 660
> amps. So the motors wont really even really be able to draw enough amps
> to fry it.
220 amps into the motor /will/ fry it, the only question is how long until
it happens.
I'm assuming you are going to use some kind of PWM controller. A binary
controller (i.e. contactor/big knife switch) would definitely blow
something quick.
The problem with PWM controllers is that they do current amplification.
You'll probably want to limit the output current from the controller to
something like 750-1000 amps. Of course with your battery setup, this
probably means that each motor will be seeing 250+ amps for the entire
run.
So if the run takes, say, 15 seconds, can the motors survive 15 seconds at
250 amps?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At one time, I use 300 AH cells that had buss bars links. These cells were
inserted into a battery box tight together which was coated with General
Electric dielectric silicone compound, the same stuff that is use on spark
plug boots.
Mark McCurdy wrote:
Found some bars, 3/16 inch thick, 1 1/4 inches wide, 18 inches long,
they seem kind of thick to me but wanted to get your opinion, make
good buss bars between batteries?
Roland Wiench wrote:
> Your buss bar has a square section area of about 1/2 inch which has
> a current-carrying capacity of 340 amps direct current based on 30
> degree C. rise at 20 degree C. ambient.
And that's *continuous duty*. No normal EV would draw this much for more
than a minute or two; so these buss bars are plenty big enough!
> If your batteries are bolted down tight and tight together so they
> do not move or press fit into a battery box container, you might be
> able to use the buss bars.
This is the real problem. Most batteries don't have truly flat-sided
cases; there are various bumps and ridges that create an air space
between them even when the high points are touching. There is usually no
method to strap them tightly together. Batteries also swell with age.
The result is that the distance between two adjacent battery's posts is
variable.
If you connect the posts with a straight flat buss bar, then slight
movement of the batteries puts enormous stress on the battery posts.
This in turn can cause the posts to bend, produces bad connections, or
even leak.
If you use buss bars to connect your batteries, you have to rigidly
strap the batteries together, OR put bends or jogs in the buss bars so
they can flex enough to prevent high stress on the terminals. Your bars
are so thick that bends or jogs aren't likely to work. So, that means
you have to pick truly flat-sided batteries, or somehow cut off the
bumps or shim them to be flat-sided, and tightly strap them together so
movement is impossible.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sharon G Alexander wrote:
We are at http://electricblue14.tripod.com
You have a great start at a website, Sharon. But it's crawling with
annoying popups and advertisements. Also, "Electric Blue" has some
unsavory sexual associations.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
I've been wondering what type of a setup I'd do with virtually unlimited
funds. I'd like to hear what type of an EV all of you would put
together with a big chunk of money. Maybe "unlimited" is a bit too
lofty. How about you get to pick your donor car (no limit on $ for
that), and $40k for everything else. That will at least make it
somewhat creative and semi-practical.
Bonus points for the coolest EV at the lowest price :)
My (highly prejudiced) vote would be to help me build the Sunrise! :-)
But you need to decide what kind of car YOU like. Everyone has a
different idea of what their ultimate EV would be.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Sutton wrote:
The other heater I have (which I took apart) has 3 "cells", and 3
leads. The 2 outside leads are wired to positive, and the middle is
negative.
This heater core has 5 cells and 5 leads. I did a little googling
for ceramic heaters but never found anything which said specifically
how to wire them. I guessing that I alternative positive and negative
across the leads.
Postive to 1 3 and 5, and negative to 2 and 4. Is this correct?
That's how you wire it for 120v. For 240v, wire 1 and 5 to positive, 3
to negative.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Adrian DeLeon wrote:
I'm using 1" x 1/16" Cu bar with T-105 batteries in a 114V system...
This sounds like a very reasonable way to do it. The only difference I'd
make is to lead-dip them to provide the corrosion resistance. I wouldn't
depend on heat shrink to keep water or acid from wicking underneath.
1" x 1/16" is a bit on the thin side for 125 amps average; it won't
overheat, but will cost you a bit of voltage drop.
At (say) 6" per strip and 19 batteries, you have 9 feet of this strip.
Its cross-sectional area is 0.0625 sq.in, which is equivalent to #7
wire. #7 has 0.000498 ohms per foot, or 0.00448 ohms for a 9-foot
length. At 125 amps, it produces a voltage drop of V = .00448 x 125 =
0.56 volts.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another interesting point is that they show the 6.7" dia motor with a blue
casing at the top photo, but the other 2 pics show a 9" dia motor with a
sticker on the motor mount that looks like 'CanadiaN' in large type and other
words in smaller type on it. Anybody recognize the sticker?
Notice also that there are no hookups at all, so this is an installation in
progress...
Also why did they leave the exhaust system in.
Deceptive to say the least...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: E-volks now offering a series motor
> Too funny that they write
> "our kit #2 has no clutch" right next to a picture
> where their motor is mated to a tranny with the most
> prominent feature on the top of the tranny (as far as
> I can determine): The clutch lever and cable....
>
> (let me know if I mistook the tranny gear selector
> for the clutch
>
> I would expect that E-volks do not deliver the clutch,
> as it is usually already in the donor - as long as their
> motor mating allows for the clutch to stay in place....
>
> Another interesting feature is the open exhaust flange
> sticking out from under the motor.....
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of jmygann
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:12 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: E-volks now offering a series motor
>
>
> http://www.e-volks.com/about2.html
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone tried these ceramic heaters ??
http://www.roadtrucker.com/12-volt-heating/300-watt-12-volt-heater.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
If you've been following the recent discussion on fiberglass, you've
probably noticed that fiberglass isn't that much lighter than steel when
designed for daily use. In fact many times the commercially available
stuff is heavier.
Even if you put the big bucks into buying really high quality fiber
panels, I doubt you'd save more than 50 lbs, probably less.
The aircraft industry, where weight really matters, has switched almost
totally to aluminum and composites. Nobody builds steel airplanes!
When people have built composite cars, they really do save a lot more
than 50 lbs. Companies that have done it brag about savings of more like
200-400 lbs.
However, when you start with an existing steel car, I think Peter is
right; you can't save much weight with fiberglass without redesigning
the whole chassis to accommodate it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> there are at least two ways to view/apply Peukert correction:
>
> (a) Apply it such that the fuel guage displays the fraction of
> available energy remaining at the present discharge rate.
> This approach results in a fuel guage that can move up or
> down while driving to reflect the fact that as the discharge
> rate varies so does the usable/available capacity remaining
> in the battery.
>
> (b) Apply it to compensate the discharge rate to some normalized
> rate (like 1A), such that the size of the 'tank' remains fixed
> independent of discharge rate. That is, the fuel gauge always
> indicates the % of capacity remaining in the battery at some
> fixed rate of consumption (the actual energy in the battery
> doesn't vary with discharge rate, it is fixed; only the amount
> of energy that may be *accessed* at the present consumption
> rate varies).
(b) is what the E-meter presently does. It works OK, except when regen
is added to the picture. I got into a big debate with Rick Proctor of
Cruising Equipment on this. If you apply Peukert to discharge but not to
charging, then in a situation with many micro charge/discharge cycles
(like an EV with regen), the E-meter "ratchets" downward until it no
longer accurately reflects SOC.
Ulitmately, I don't think any one-dimensional parameter can accurately
indicate a battery's state of charge, no matter what you call it. You'll
need at least two numbers to characterize it. Ideally, you'd probably
want some sort of graphic display, that shows SOC/range/etc. at two or
more *different* rates of discharge. For example (view with a fixed
width font):
miles to go
100 +
| /\
50 + / \
|/ \
0 +______\___speed (mph)
20 40 60
This says at your battery's present condition, you can go 25 miles at
20mph, 75 miles at 40 mph, or 0 miles at 60mph (unlikely numbers, but
easy to plot with an ASCII graph :-)
This assumes a graphical display for the "fuel" gauge. It could also
display a bright vertical line at your present driving speed, so it was
easy to read the "miles to go" at a glance.
As a land and water low-speed EVer, I'd be interested more in having
a display which indicates how many miles I can go before empty. On
the river, if I know that it's 12-miles to the marina, the thing I
want to know is at my current speed, will I make it to the marina.
This is in fact how the E-meter was designed to be used. Its "minutes
remaining" display tells you how many more minutes you can draw the
present current before the batteries will go dead. To make it to the
marina, you need to pick a speed that gets you there within the time
displayed by the E-meter.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
mike golub wrote:
I was wondering for safety sake if I could design a battery
system on 42 volts? Supposedly 42volts DC won't kill you?
Most safety regulatory agencies use 30vac or 42vdc peak as the maximum
"intrinsically safe" voltage. This typically means 24vac or 36vdc
nominal system voltage. At this voltage, it is virtually impossible to
electrocute a normal healthy person through the skin. You will find lots
of applications where such voltages are used without bothering to
prevent people from touching them.
So if had two banks each consisting of either 7 6volts
PbA or 5 8volts.
When doing this from a safety perspective, you'd want the nominal system
voltage to be 36vdc (six 6v batteries per group). They would reach about
45vdc peak at the end of a charge cycle; a bit higher than the 42v
standard, but close enough to still be quite safe.
Then I'd use some heavy duty diodes to make the boost
"voltage doubler"
I think you mean the "rectactor" circuit. It uses two diodes and a SPST
contactor, and can wire two 36v packs in parallel (36v) or series (72v).
As pointed out, doing this with diodes costs you 0.5v to 1v of voltage
drop, with an associated amount of heat and efficiency loss. You can
also use a DPDT contactor or three SPST contactors to avoid the diodes.
42V means you'll need considerable current to move a vehicle of any
size, and a motor that can handle that current. This means larger
wiring. Higher currents mean it's more likely to have an iffy junction
fail from overheating.
True. Though the motor voltage can be higher if you had four of these
36v packs, and the contactors and/or diodes to wire them for 36v, 72v,
96v, or 144v. Such a setup is called a contactor controller.
Or, three 36v packs which are all connected in series during driving for
a 108v pack, to power a conventional PWM controller.
With higher voltages, you can get away with lighter gauge wiring
(provided the voltage rating is high enough), and lower currents for the
same amount of power.
We've discussed this one before. With the same batteries, you wind up
with the same number of connections, and same size wire, and same
current per wire no matter what voltage you wire them for.
Has anyone else done this. I was wondering for
liability it might be better if the voltage was lower.
It's certainly easier to make it reach a given level of safety.
Essentially all industrial EVs are low-voltage, high-current systems for
this reason.
FWIW, many commercial EVs (like the EV1) had pack voltages > 200V, some
>300V
That works too, of course. But note that these high voltages required
extreme measures to keep people out of their battery boxes!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking about adding forced air cooling to the motors to help with heat
dissapation, would that make a noticable difference? What other modifications
should i do, advance the timing?
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> AS&S told me that the torque rating of 2150 oz/in was a continous torque
> rating at the rpm of 3200 i believe it was.
Can't be continuous. That would work out to almost 7hp.
> Anyhow, wouldn't having larger wire improve the
> power output of the motor, and resist heating of the motor wires?
Nope, not really. Total length of both pigtails added together is about 3
feet. That works out to 0.0029967 ohms of resistance. 6ga will be about
1/2 of that.
Thew difference will get maybe 0.5% more power out of the motor and this
is only at really high current levels. At normal power levels, it's maybe
0.2%.
It would help with the heating a lot at the really high current levels,
however the 10ga wires would probably melt shortly before the internal
windings did. Switching to 6a means that the internal windings melt
first. Your choice.
> I am currently planning on using 660 1600 mah gp 160sck nicad cells that
> can do 30 amps continous. I'm figuring each cell will give me 48 watts
> peak. Performance at 60 amps the voltage drops to .8 , so about 31.6 kw
> peak power. So the configuration will be 60 cells in series, then 11 of
> those in parallel, so under full load the voltage drops to 48 and 660
> amps. So the motors wont really even really be able to draw enough amps
> to fry it.
220 amps into the motor /will/ fry it, the only question is how long until
it happens.
I'm assuming you are going to use some kind of PWM controller. A binary
controller (i.e. contactor/big knife switch) would definitely blow
something quick.
The problem with PWM controllers is that they do current amplification.
You'll probably want to limit the output current from the controller to
something like 750-1000 amps. Of course with your battery setup, this
probably means that each motor will be seeing 250+ amps for the entire
run.
So if the run takes, say, 15 seconds, can the motors survive 15 seconds at
250 amps?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rush
The blue motor is a D&D and states such. The other motor is an Advance and
looks like an 8", just the motor bracket has the Canada tag on it. Hope this
helps.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Another interesting point is that they show the 6.7" dia motor with a blue
casing at the top photo, but the other 2 pics show a 9" dia motor with a
sticker on the motor mount that looks like 'CanadiaN' in large type and other
words in smaller type on it. Anybody recognize the sticker?
Notice also that there are no hookups at all, so this is an installation in
progress...
Also why did they leave the exhaust system in.
Deceptive to say the least...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: E-volks now offering a series motor
> Too funny that they write
> "our kit #2 has no clutch" right next to a picture
> where their motor is mated to a tranny with the most
> prominent feature on the top of the tranny (as far as
> I can determine): The clutch lever and cable....
>
> (let me know if I mistook the tranny gear selector
> for the clutch
>
> I would expect that E-volks do not deliver the clutch,
> as it is usually already in the donor - as long as their
> motor mating allows for the clutch to stay in place....
>
> Another interesting feature is the open exhaust flange
> sticking out from under the motor.....
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of jmygann
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:12 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: E-volks now offering a series motor
>
>
> http://www.e-volks.com/about2.html
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David, I'm interested in the KTA part number you are referring to. Are they
rated to 250VDC contact voltage?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, October 13, 2006 4:14 am
Subject: Re: Wiring a Ceramic Heater
To: [email protected]
> Yep, that's it. switch polarity every terminal, winding up with
> 1,3,and 5 being one and 2 and 4 being the opposite polarity.
>
> Yep, a fuse and a relay rated for pack voltage. KTA's relay
> package includes arc snubbers and a fuse for both the positive and
> negative side. Add a fuseholder and you have all the parts you need.
>
>
>
>
>
> David Brandt
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Chris Sutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 12:55:37 AM
> Subject: Wiring a Ceramic Heater
>
>
> I just got my 120v 1500 watt DC ceramic heater, and I'm not 100% sure
> how to wire it up.
>
> The other heater I have (which I took apart) has 3 "cells", and 3
> leads. The 2 outside leads are wired to positive, and the middle is
> negative.
>
> This heater core has 5 cells and 5 leads. I did a little googling
> for ceramic heaters but never found anything which said specifically
> how to wire them. I guessing that I alternative positive and negative
> across the leads.
>
> Postive to 1 3 and 5, and negative to 2 and 4. Is this correct?
>
> Do I need to do anything special other than putting a fuse inline to
> the battery pack, and probably a relay for the on-off switch?
>
> Chris
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:04 AM 10/13/2006, you wrote:
I'm using 1" x 1/16" Cu bar with T-105 batteries in a 114V system. They
are easy to bend by hand, and sharp corners can be made by clamping the
bar in a vise. Drilling accurate holes with a hand drill was problematic.
A punch helped, but the holes still came out a bit sloppy.
You will love what this type of drill bit can do in sheet metal. Nice
round clean hole and if you are careful and let the next larger step just
start it will put a little radius on the top edge of the hole.
http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/brandProducts.jhtml?brand=Unibit
I normally use a second drill with an 1/8 or so bit to make a starter hole.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone is still following this thread, John's input is much
appreciated. Details are always important, but to me (and I think I
represent many "average" drivers) these details are not as important as
the fact that the Electrovair WAS remarkably similar to the EV1 and
predated it by 30 years. Sure, they weren't the same car, but even now
the specs of the Electrovair would still be a pretty nice EV. As I see
it, if GM could make an EV that well in the 1960s, then the following 40
years should have produced way better EVs than anything we've seen so far.
Just my 2 cents.
Nick
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
This response is a bit delayed and is now not all that timely, but I
thought I'd send it out anyway. In what appears to me to be a trend of
misinformation being spread on the EVDL...everything from a megadollar
capacitor powered race-prepped EV1 that barely matched the stock battery
powered car's 1/4 mile performance being hailed as a huge success (not),
to a '3700 lb. Corvette conversion with less than 150 hp projected to be
a 'performance' EV (not) , I'm concerned that newbies are getting
incorrect info. We can normally can count on Lee Hart to be steadfastly
accurate, but as I read Lee's comments concerning the '66 GM prototype
'Electrovair' I found myself disagreeing with nearly all he wrote. With
deserved respect towards Lee, I thought I'd present another view...
Ryan Stotts originally wrote:
>> [Electrovair] Impressive voltage, range, and decent top speed. Even
>> used an AC motor. All back in 1966!
Response from Lee Hart:
> It's more amazing than that. The Electrovair was the same size, same
weight, same top speed, same range, same oil-cooled 3-phase AC
>induction motor, same 100kw 3-phase inverter, same transmissionsless
13,000 rpm motor setup, and same high voltage battery pack as >the
highly touted GM EV1!
Perhaps Lee was generalizing with his comments. Perhaps I'm taking the
word 'same' too literally. Perhaps he was going with the generalized
view that both were small cars, both had high voltage battery packs, and
both had AC drives. For me however, saying that a 512V silver-zinc pack
is the 'same' as a 343V NiMH pack, or that 0-60 in 16 seconds vs 0-60 in
8 seconds is the 'same', is going too far. Maybe in regards to pack
voltage - both the Electrovair and the EV1 had high voltage packs, the
compared to an average conversion's 120-144V pack they are the same, but
in the context of this EVDL being a place where good information can be
counted on, they are far from being the same.
Let's examine the following:
(1) same size?
Not correct, unless you consider a car more than a foot longer than the
other, the same size! The '66 Electrovair was 13 inches longer at 183
inches vs the EV1's trimer 170 inches. The Electrovair was also two and
a half inches taller, and in automotive size terms, that's a lot.
(2) same weight?
Way off here. The Electrovair was a porky 3400 lbs. while the EV1 even
with its much larger and heavier battery pack that either weighed 1310
lbs. or 1147 lbs. depending on chemistry (lead acid or NiMH) only tipped
the scales at 2910 lbs. A difference of 500 lbs. is HUGE.
The first two categories above, from Lee Hart's perspective, suggested
the two cars' body types were similar, I say they were not. Even more
dissimilar, are the suspension systems of the two cars being compared.
Most notable is the more conventional front and rear track widths of the
old Corvair, where the EV1 had a wider front stance in front and a much
narrower rear stance to go along with the car's teardrop-shaped body.
The rear track was 9 inches narrower than the front! The 2000-2006 Honda
Insight emulates this approach with a teardrop shaped body and a rear
track that's 4 inches narrower than the front.
(4) same high voltage battery pack?
As covered above...not remotely the same. The Electrovair had a rare
silver-zinc battery pack, the first gen EV1 had a common lead acid
battery pack with the 2nd gen EV1 getting a more advanced NiMH battery
pack. These chemistries are not close to being the same. As to the
voltage, again, not remotely the same. The Electrovair's silver-zinc
pack was at a lofty 532 volts...more then 200 volts higher than the
highest voltage NiMH 343V EV1 pack, and 230 volts higher than the 312
volt lead acid pack!
(4) same range?
Way, way off! The Electrovair was rated at 40-80 miles. Though the 1st
gen. lead acid powered EV1 was rated at 60-90 miles, the 2nd gen EV1 was
officially rated at 100-130 miles. I personally drove a NiMH powered
gen. 2 EV1 at an average speed of 70 mph for 110 miles and had 29%
charge left when I plugged it it at the trip's end. Had I kept going to
100% of the calculated range, the car was good for 150+ miles on that
day! At a more conservative 55-60 mph I imagine that particular EV1
could have nailed 160 miles on one charge.
Though I have not seen the Electrovair in person, let alone drive it, I
imagine that driven the way I drove the EV1, it probably would have
yielded 40 miles at the same speeds I drove the EV1 at. Anyone think 40
miles @ 70 mph is the 'same' as 150 miles @ 70 mph?
(5) same 0-60?
>The 0-60 mph time was an artificial limit set by the inverter control
logic. Their goal was to exactly duplicate the performance of the >stock
Corvair.
Again, w-a-a-ay off! The stock Corvair (non-turbo model) ran 0-60 in
10.8 seconds. The Electrovair ran those same numbers in 16
seconds...argghh! If GM's goal was to 'exactly duplicate the performance
of the stock Corvair', they were far off that mark. As to 'an artificial
limit set by the inverter control logic', this is possible, but it would
have only been so as to limit current draws so they could extract as
much possible range from that battery pack as they could. It was not
done to restrict the acceleration numbers. I imagine the GM engineers
working on the project at the time probably wrestled with the two tough
goals of giving the car 'the same 0-60 acceleration as a stock Corvair'
and achieving the best range per charge so as to make the electric car's
range seem acceptable to most. If they had turned up the screws to give
the car 0-60 in 10 seconds, the range at the hands of road testers
probably would have dropped to 20-40 miles, an unacceptable range
performance to those involved, I'm sure. Leaving it where it was (0-60
in 16 sec.) and getting the 40-80 miles per charge stats was certainly a
compromise.
> The inverter was built with SCRs.....It growls, whistles, and sings
to you. :-)
Though forklift technology has gone from growling SCR controls through
series-wound motors, to squealing transistor control through either
series-wound type or sep. ex. type motors, to higher frequency silent
transistor controls through sep. ex. motors, to the current push into AC
drives, the majority of forklifts still on the job are the
SCR-series-wound motor types, and yes, they growl, moan, and hum along.
I can only imagine the racket the SCR based AC drive in that Corvair
made! If ever there was an EV candidate for being more obnoxious
sounding than a squealing Curtis 1231C powered conversion, this would be
it :-(
In closing, here's a bit of stats for anyone who's still interested:
'66 gasoline Corvair: 183" long, 69.7" wide, 52.8" high, 108" wheel
base, 55" front track, 56.6" rear track, 2720 lbs., 110 hp, 0-60 in 10.8
sec.
'66 Electrovair: 183" long, 69.7" wide, 52.8" high, 108" wheel base, 55"
front track, 56.6" rear track, 3400 lbs., 115 hp, 0-60 in 16 sec.
532V silver-zinc pack, 40-80 miles
'98 Gen II EV1: 170" long, 69.5" wide, 50.4" high, 98.9" wheel base,
57.9" front track, 49" rear track, 2910 lbs., 137 hp, 0-60 in 7.6 sec.
(best time of road test data found, average is closer to 8.5 seconds),
343V, 26.4 kwhr, 1147 lb. NiMH pack, 100-130 miles
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
RE: LA DWP Rav4-EVs Comming OF LEASE
Hi Steve
Dontcrush.com morphed into PluginAmerica.com,
and trust me, they are very aware and involved
with this issue at this time. No worries. It
is a long shot (imo) that Toyota will permit
anything other than continued leasing should
LADWP want to continue with them.
Weekly meetings with PIA and daily dialog about
this topic continue to take place. Let me
state: "They are fully on top of the situation".
BR,
Ron
EAA
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My friend at work suggested Plexiglas for a battery box. Is Plexiglas
strong enough to be used as a battery box?
Curtis Muhlestein
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About lead-dipping them - my guess is that some sort of flux should be
applied to the copper parts first. I don't know of a source for "resin"
flux in quantity, but I can get a big tube of flux cheap at the BORG in the
plumbing department..
That's probably acid flux, so would it be a bad idea to use it on bus bars?
When I was a yout, I remember hearing "never use acid core solder on
electronics", so, I never have.
Phil
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Buss Bars
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:11:43 -0500
Adrian DeLeon wrote:
I'm using 1" x 1/16" Cu bar with T-105 batteries in a 114V system...
This sounds like a very reasonable way to do it. The only difference I'd
make is to lead-dip them to provide the corrosion resistance. I wouldn't
depend on heat shrink to keep water or acid from wicking underneath.
1" x 1/16" is a bit on the thin side for 125 amps average; it won't
overheat, but will cost you a bit of voltage drop.
At (say) 6" per strip and 19 batteries, you have 9 feet of this strip. Its
cross-sectional area is 0.0625 sq.in, which is equivalent to #7 wire. #7
has 0.000498 ohms per foot, or 0.00448 ohms for a 9-foot length. At 125
amps, it produces a voltage drop of V = .00448 x 125 = 0.56 volts.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Searchsay hello!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, Cor, are you saying I should brush out the inside of the lug
(where the cable goes) and get a nice shiny finish (out with the
gray finish, and get a nice brassy finish)? I didn't do that, so
that could be part or all of my problem. Did use Noalox in large
quantity, though. One lug I cut open had solid copper from wall
to wall, but if there was a very thin layer of oxidation or
somesuch causing increased resistance, I might not have seen it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:23 PM
Subject: RE: melted a post (learned a lesson)
> This is exactly why I threw away 2 pre-made cables that
> came with my truck - the resistance from lug to lug
> (I _measured_ every cable that I made and every cable
> that I had bought) was more than twice the resistance
> that I expected based on the cable lenght.
> One of the cables even was four times the expected
> amount of milliOhms.
> The insides of the copper lugs seemed not to be clean
> and after applying force on the sides of the lug so it
> opened up enough to pull the wire out, it showed that
> the inside was oxidized before it was crimped.
> All cables I made had cleaned lugs and Noalox on the
> cables, so the corrosion should be minimized.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:01 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
>
>
> Exactly. If the connection between your wire/cable isn't tight
it's the
> same a a loose post connection. The lug won't melt first just
transfer the
> heat. Lawrence Rhodes......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:30 PM
> Subject: Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
>
>
> > Another thing you can do to keep you ahead of the curve is to
use
> > a non-reversible temperature sensing dot, such as the
Celsi-Dot
> > at omega.com. This has been discussed on the EVDL, so you
might
> > want to check the archives.
> >
> > You can have nicely tightened clamps on your posts, and you
can
> > still get a hot post, for whatever reason. The Celsi-Dot
> > approach pointed out several of my posts that were getting
hot,
> > and from the test I ran at
> >
>
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/batteries/battery_posts/voltage_drops/06090
> 2_post_voltage_drops.pdf,
> > it is apparently defective cables, so I get to make up some
new
> > ones.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
> >
> >
> > > I drove in the wrong gear and did the same thing...
> > > USB was able to melt on a new post, but due to plastic
> > > melting around it, always got acid vapor (corrosion)
> > > around it just a smidge faster than all of the rest.
> > > Would imagine trojan would want to claim the same.
> > > Check with your distributor. It was $5 for me, but
> > > that was 8 years ago.
> > >
> > > FWIW, you might consider Bellville washers. Mike
> > > Brown at ElectroAuto sells them for dirt cheap, and
> > > the goal is to maintain tight contact.
> > > peace,
> > >
> > >
> > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > > Today was my first break down.
> > > >
> > > > I was 7 miles from home towards work, and upon
> > > > accelerating at a traffic
> > > > light lost motor power. I quickly pulled into the
> > > > first available lot, and
> > > > discovered one of my battery posts completely melted
> > > > the post down to
> > > > molten nothingness.
> > > >
> > > > I learned my lesson for sure. I should have watered
> > > > my batteries 10 days
> > > > ago, so would have naturally checked for loose
> > > > connections at the same
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > I was able to jumper past the battery in 40 minutes
> > > > and get on my way. I
> > > > won't have automatic charging (Zivan will overcharge
> > > > a pack with one less
> > > > battery) until I replace fix.
> > > >
> > > > ???QUESTIONS:???
> > > >
> > > > 1. Can a Trojan T-125 battery post be rebuilt?
> > > > 2. If not, how can I get a similar (1 year old)
> > > > battery?
> > > > 3. If not, how should I order a new battery to have
> > > > it match the others
> > > > most closely
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2nd set of questions.
> > > > In my vehicle, both battery post clamps and battery
> > > > copper lugs are used.
> > > > Today, I learned I should have long ago replaced the
> > > > post clamp with copper
> > > > lugs.
> > > > However, I'm also baffled.
> > > > battery post clamps have been around forever, and I
> > > > doubt loosen in
> > > > gasoline vehicle environments. So, why have I had
> > > > trouble with this. It
> > > > was fairly tight 2 months ago.
> > > > I had problem with another clamp 5 months ago that
> > > > partially melted a post
> > > > (not too much), I caught it in time, so that it is
> > > > really tight.
> > > >
> > > > ??Are clamps inferior to lugs, or is it just the
> > > > installation that is
> > > > inferior?
> > > >
> > > > For the rest of you, tighten your connections if you
> > > > don't already.
> > > > I learned the $100 way
> > > >
> > > > BTW. I've never been able to fix my gas car when it
> > > > died. This is proof
> > > > that this is the great technology!! (one that can be
> > > > fixed by the average
> > > > Joe)
> > > >
> > > > I'll keep you POSTED,
> > > > Ben
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> > > Learn more at:
> > > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > > ____
> > > __/__|__\ __
> > > =D-------/ - - \
> > > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of
the
> > steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
