EV Digest 6017
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Plexiglas Battery Box
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: #22
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Plexiglas Battery Box
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Ajustable air shocks, Re: air suspension - Roland, got your ears
on?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Buss Bars
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Plexiglas Battery Box
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Plexiglas Battery Box
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: #22
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Plexiglas Battery Box
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ajustable air shocks, Re: air suspension - Roland, got your ears on?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Clean holes in metal, was:Re: Buss Bars
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Cheap motors for Lawnmowers, E-bikes
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Plexiglas Battery Box
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: What EV would you do with big funds?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Buss Bars
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What EV would you do with big funds?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Air Conditioning motor
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: LED brakelights
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electrovair Corrections
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) New Battery Technology Achieves 100 Miles with Hybrid Electric Vehicles
by "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Air Conditioning motor
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Plexiglass is not very strong and is very brittle. A much better choice
would be polycarbonate. it's strong, but not very stiff. It would probably
make a pretty heavy ( and expensive) battery box.
Phil
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Plexiglas Battery Box
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:13:11 -0600
My friend at work suggested Plexiglas for a battery box. Is Plexiglas
strong enough to be used as a battery box?
Curtis Muhlestein
_________________________________________________________________
Add fun gadgets and colorful themes to express yourself on Windows Live
Spaces
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thats funny, Google for Electric Blue brings up way more music than sex.
Anyway, the previous owner of my Mitsubishi had namd her Eve. My
son threw out a recommendation that new name would be EV Blue.
Overrode that decision and settled on Electrabishi. So EV Blue
(or Eve Blue) is still open, I think. :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Friday, October 13, 2006 11:53 am
> Subject: Re: #22
> To: [email protected]
>
> > Sharon G Alexander wrote:
> > > We are at http://electricblue14.tripod.com
> >
> > You have a great start at a website, Sharon. But it's crawling
> > with
> > annoying popups and advertisements. Also, "Electric Blue" has
> some
> > unsavory sexual associations.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Curtis Muhlestein wrote:
My friend at work suggested Plexiglas for a battery box. Is Plexiglas
strong enough to be used as a battery box?
sure, depending on size/thickness.
btw, this is called acrylic if you want to shop around for cheaper
stuff--plexiglas is a brand name.
if you really want to be sure, look into polycarbonate, brand name is
lexan. this stuff is quite strong and very hard to break.
one more to try is polypropylene--it's like the stuff those white
plastic cutting boards are made from. it has really good chemical
resistance. might be good if the batteries leak, mist, or gas.
there are many places to get this stuff in quantity--local hardware
stores are usually over priced. here is one to get you started.
http://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/plasticmaterial.html
this place will sell sample boxes very cheap--basically cut-offs. these
are great for testing.
regards,
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was always under the impression that in a normal suspension system,
that the springs provide the actual _suspension_ (keeping the vehicle
body lifted up off the unsprung axles and wheels), and the shocks
provided inertial damping so that the springs didn't do what springs
normally do: Bounce.
Are the Highackers a replacement for both the damping and suspension
(shocks and springs), or do they only provide a damping effect?
I'd be very interested in a product that allows adjustment of spring
rates and damping levels, so that a suspension can be fine-tuned easily
rather than changing the springs.
Also, "not ridiculously expensive" is a bonus.
jerryd wrote:
Hi David and All,
I use Grabriel Hijackers from Auto Zone,
normally used as helper springs, for all my 3 wheels so I'll
be able to lower it for highway speeds, lowering aero drag
and adjusting for variable weight in the rear cargo area and
raiosing for flood waters, a normal thing here in flat,
rainy Fla.
Monroe, VW Buggy supplies, and others sell them
too and they are fairly cheap at about $35 per wheel
including hoses for remote adjustments either from an
onboard compressor or a gas station air supply.
They use the same space as a reg shock.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EVDLposts <[email protected]>
Subject: air suspension - Roland, got your ears on?
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
I've lowered the fiero back to the ground, and noted the
differences in ride height, and I've contacted a couple of
spring vendors for quotes, but I was still wondering about
using an air system.
I was wondering if Roland could give more details of his
air suspension system, including the vendor, and whether it
was a selection from stock products or of it had to be
custom engineered.
I know these systems allow the adjustment of ride height,
but I was wondering more about the ride and handling. How
is that?
Did you add this to a stock El Camino suspension, or are
you using units that replace the stock springs and shocks?
Also, how much space do the pump and valving take up?
Lastly, how much did it cost?
Also, if anyone else uses an air system, please let us know
the details.
Thanks!!!
PS I wound up with 19 batteries for 228V. For now at
least. Need to reassemble the interior and instrumentation
to be able to move the car, though. Z1K and Warp 9" with
stock 4 speed.
David Brandt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A flexible option to a thick buss "bar" is a bus "pile" made up of lots of
thinner sheets of copper. I have a driver's seat from a 1922 Rauch & Lang
electric car that I showed off at last night's OEVA meeting. It's master
manual connect/disconnect is made up of a solid brass target as the fixed
element and a pile of thin brass sheet material for the moving element. The
brass sheet pieces are of increasing length as you move away from the solid
piece, which is itself in a V-config, so when the moving element pushes the
pile down to the target, all the brass sheet edges make contact and seat
pretty nicely. Here's a couple pics:
http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/EV/DCAM0143.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/EV/DCAM0145.JPG
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 11:12 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Buss Bars
>
>
> Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> > I'm using 1" x 1/16" Cu bar with T-105 batteries in a 114V system...
>
> This sounds like a very reasonable way to do it. The only difference I'd
> make is to lead-dip them to provide the corrosion resistance. I wouldn't
> depend on heat shrink to keep water or acid from wicking underneath.
>
> 1" x 1/16" is a bit on the thin side for 125 amps average; it won't
> overheat, but will cost you a bit of voltage drop.
>
> At (say) 6" per strip and 19 batteries, you have 9 feet of this strip.
> Its cross-sectional area is 0.0625 sq.in, which is equivalent to #7
> wire. #7 has 0.000498 ohms per foot, or 0.00448 ohms for a 9-foot
> length. At 125 amps, it produces a voltage drop of V = .00448 x 125 =
> 0.56 volts.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Sandman wrote:
Curtis Muhlestein wrote:
My friend at work suggested Plexiglas for a battery box. Is Plexiglas
strong enough to be used as a battery box?
one last thought is PVC sheeting. never used it but it looks like a
possibility. best to buy some samples and test (i.e. break) them. it
is fun to do and will give you meaningful data. :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Polypropylene isn't usually used for cutting boards, at least not
quality ones.
The stuff you see at say Subway's assembly counter is UHMW-PE
(UltraHigh Molecular Weight PolyEthylene). It's quite different than
regular polyethylene. The strength, stiffness, and impact resistance
are remarkable. It is more resistant to creeping out of shape than
regular PE. However, it is quite difficult to thermal weld 2 pieces
together with high strength and it generally cannot be glued.
UHMW-PE is pretty expensive. Also it may be a lot less dense than steel
or aluminum, but it will probably need to be made several times
thicker. It may be a toss-up which one is actually lighter in the end.
UHMW-PE is very susceptible to UVs. Though they made grades which are
have some resistance to UVs, you don't want to leave anything on the
outside where it'll get a lot of sun for a long time.
IF you were going to use a plastic, UHMW is probably the way to go.
It's very stiff for a plastic but not compared to aluminum or steel
though. The problem I'd expect if you try to hang some batteries is
that the middle of the tray could sag down from the weight. The tops of
the batteries would lean inward. A lot of this depends on temperature.
Danny
Mike Sandman wrote:
one more to try is polypropylene--it's like the stuff those white
plastic cutting boards are made from. it has really good chemical
resistance. might be good if the batteries leak, mist, or gas.
there are many places to get this stuff in quantity--local hardware
stores are usually over priced. here is one to get you started.
http://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/plasticmaterial.html
this place will sell sample boxes very cheap--basically cut-offs.
these are great for testing.
regards,
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thats funny, Google for Electric Blue brings up way more music than sex.
Anyway, the previous owner of my Mitsubishi had namd her Eve. My son threw out
a recommendation that new name would be EV Blue. Overrode that decision and
settled on Electrabishi. So EV Blue (of Eve Blue) is still open, I think. :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, October 13, 2006 11:53 am
Subject: Re: #22
To: [email protected]
> Sharon G Alexander wrote:
> > We are at http://electricblue14.tripod.com
>
> You have a great start at a website, Sharon. But it's crawling
> with
> annoying popups and advertisements. Also, "Electric Blue" has some
> unsavory sexual associations.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hardware stores carry some clear acrylic and polycarbonate window
material. Not a great place to shop.
There are plastics shops in every major city, and often in small ones
too. There is a Regal Plastics, Polyplastic, and one other I don't
remember the name of within 10 min of where I live in Austin. They
stock all sorts of stuff in rack after rack. They have a scrap bin that
they sell by the pound, and also they also just fill the dumpster with
odd pieces often too. Typically if you do need prime, custom cut
material it's still quite reasonable.
Lexan (polycarbonate) is stronger than Plexiglass (acrylic) but still
quite breakable. Some people tried to make battle bots out them, they
chip and shatter well enough if struck with a hammer.
Danny
Mike Sandman wrote:
there are many places to get this stuff in quantity--local hardware
stores are usually over priced. here is one to get you started.
http://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/plasticmaterial.html
this place will sell sample boxes very cheap--basically cut-offs.
these are great for testing.
regards,
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Eric and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ajustable air shocks, Re: air suspension -
Roland, got your ears on?
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:45:37 -0700
>I was always under the impression that in a normal
>suspension system, that the springs provide the actual
>_suspension_ (keeping the vehicle body lifted up off the
>unsprung axles and wheels), and the shocks provided
>inertial damping so that the springs didn't do what springs
>normally do: Bounce.
>
>Are the Highackers a replacement for both the damping and
>suspension (shocks and springs), or do they only provide a
>damping effect?
They are designed as helper springs and provide lift
up to 550 lbs/wheel which barely does my lightweight EV. Too
little for many cars alone but there are others like
Shockwave that uses an outside bellows air spring for higher
weights. Pricier too.
I used one on the Ewoody rear wheel for it's 10 yrs of
life and worked well there.
>
>I'd be very interested in a product that allows adjustment
>of spring rates and damping levels, so that a suspension
>can be fine-tuned easily rather than changing the springs.
>
>Also, "not ridiculously expensive" is a bonus.
That's a big thing plus lower weight, more compact
design. There are at least 3 other brands like Monroe
Shocks, Blistien?, ect. VW shops sell another one but don't
have it's manufacture. Not sure what each ones max weight is
though. JC Whitney may have a set too along with airbag
spring kits, compressors.
Jerry Dycus
>
>jerryd wrote:
>> Hi David and All,
>> I use Grabriel Hijackers from Auto Zone,
>> normally used as helper springs, for all my 3 wheels so
>> I'll be able to lower it for highway speeds, lowering
>> aero drag and adjusting for variable weight in the rear
>> cargo area and raiosing for flood waters, a normal thing
>> here in flat, rainy Fla.
>> Monroe, VW Buggy supplies, and others sell
>> them too and they are fairly cheap at about $35 per wheel
>> including hoses for remote adjustments either from an
>> onboard compressor or a gas station air supply.
>> They use the same space as a reg shock.
>> Jerry Dycus
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:28 PM 13/10/06 -0500, you wrote:
At 01:04 AM 10/13/2006, you wrote:
I'm using 1" x 1/16" Cu bar with T-105 batteries in a 114V system. They
are easy to bend by hand, and sharp corners can be made by clamping the
bar in a vise. Drilling accurate holes with a hand drill was problematic.
A punch helped, but the holes still came out a bit sloppy.
You will love what this type of drill bit can do in sheet metal. Nice
round clean hole and if you are careful and let the next larger step just
start it will put a little radius on the top edge of the hole.
http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/brandProducts.jhtml?brand=Unibit
I normally use a second drill with an 1/8 or so bit to make a starter hole.
G'day All
If you like what a unibit can do, then try and find yourself holesaws
similar to tat in the link:
http://www.sutton.com.au/uploads/downloads/Consumer_Image_Library/Consumer_Images_Sawblades/Holecutters_TCT/C0304_-_TctHoleCtr3.jpg
I get this brand (one at a time), but the ones I get have a (lathe type)
center bit in them. Starts where you want the point to be (no second drill)
and eats stainless steel for breakfast. No little chamfer on the edge of
the hole, though, just sharp, clean edges on both sides and very long life
from the cutter. Limitation is in the depth of cut (panel thickness).
Expensive up-front, but pays for itself over the life of the tool, and buy
just the sizes you need. On stainless I use a cutting compound to make the
tool work less hard.
(I was on-site a few months ago and was about to use one to put two holes
into a stainless steel enclosure for the instrument cables. The electrician
who was doing the power stuff offered to lend me one of his normal ones.
"that one [of his] is about stuffed anyway, [he] had to use it to put two
holes in the stainless already". I then told him my TCT hole cutter had
already put the 30 or so holes into the front of the box where all the
switches and instruments were and amazed him by popping in the two gland
holes as though the stainless was aluminium).
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I was thinking about adding forced air cooling to the motors to help with
> heat dissapation, would that make a noticable difference?
Not for drag racing. It will increase the continuous current capability a
bit, but when drag racing you heat it up so fast that just adding a so air
probably wont have much of an effect.
And there is always the issue of HOW are you going to get any air through
that motor? You'd have to cut some openings in the end bell, at the same
time you are demanding that the end bell stand up to perhaps 10x the
torque it was designed for. Weakening the end bell at the same time you
demand more strength from it, doesn't sound like a recipe for success to
me.
> What other
> modifications should i do, advance the timing?
>
Advancing the timing wouldn't help with heat and wouldn't have much
benefit with a Permanent magenet motor anyway.
Te be honest, for a drag racing application, you'd probably be better off
using a small 6" ADC series wound motor.
I have one laying around that I was going to use in my Motorcycle, but it
doesn't have an internal cooling fan. It would be a good candidate for a
drag racing motor.
At just under 36lbs, it's slightly less than three of these lawnmower
motors. 60V is right in it's sweet spot. I can handle all the current
your pack can trough at it, it uses four brushes that are 1" wide and 5/8"
thick with two braided leads going to each brush, the braided leads look
like 4ga each. You won't have to worry about melting this motor.
Here is a photo I took of it a few years back:
http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/twev/n90motor.jpg
It's probably not as efficient as the PM motors you already have, but it
will develope MUCH more low end torque (series wound motor), which is more
important for drag racing anyway.
On the down side, it has tapered shafts. I've made an adapter (sort of
like a taperloc adapter) and fitted it with a sprocket. I don't know if
this adapter would hold up to drag racing though, wasn't what I had in
mind when I built it.
Anyway, if you are interested, maybe you can swap me something for it.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:52:49 -0400, you wrote:
>Mike Sandman wrote:
>> Curtis Muhlestein wrote:
>>> My friend at work suggested Plexiglas for a battery box. Is Plexiglas
>>> strong enough to be used as a battery box?
>>>
>
>one last thought is PVC sheeting. never used it but it looks like a
>possibility. best to buy some samples and test (i.e. break) them. it
>is fun to do and will give you meaningful data. :)
>
One brand I have experience with is called Kydex, an acrylic/PVC
alloy. Strong and tuff. Long as you don't hit it when cold, then it
cracks. It can be heat formed and comes in just about any color you
want.
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Ryan Bohm wrote:
Hi EVerybody,
I've been wondering what type of a setup I'd do with virtually
unlimited funds. I'd like to hear what type of an EV all of you would
put together with a big chunk of money. Maybe "unlimited" is a bit
too lofty. How about you get to pick your donor car (no limit on $
for that), and $40k for everything else. That will at least make it
somewhat creative and semi-practical.
This is an interesting thread, and one where I can take the opportunity
to send a more positive message out about concerning another recent
thread about Jack's proposed $25,000 Vette based performance car. Now
with the ceiling raised on cost, and taking another look at what it
would actually take to make a converted '84-'91 Vette perform as one
would expect a 'performance car' to do, I'll give two examples...one DC
powered and another AC powered. This will be fun! I'll also include what
would make 'me' happy as to the ultimate EV with funds available up to
$40k after procuring a car.
OK, on with the Vette projects...
(1) The DC powered Vette:
I'd start with any one of the Vettes from '84-'91, as the body style is
very similar with very little changes between them. Assuming a 'before'
weight of 3300 lbs., keeping the 5 or 6 speed tranny (depending on model
year) and after pulling the V8, the exhaust, radiator, and the other
stuff, the glider will be at around 2700 lbs. Twin 9 inch DC motors in a
Siamese 9 configuration will weigh about 290 lbs. and the Z2K controller
and other under-hood goodies will add 50 lbs., so the car's at 3040 lbs.
Add in a 500 lb. 360 volt high performance LiIon pack based on cells
like the A123, and along with some battery cases, bracketry and cabling,
and you've got a 3600 lb. Vette, about 300 lbs. heavier than stock. Put
some dollars into revised springs and shocks for the additional weight.
Now, you've got a pack that at a full 2000 battery amps, will only sag
to maybe 240 volts under that full load...480 kw! At maybe 70%
efficiency at a 2000 amp motor loop current, the Siamese 9 would make an
honest 450 hp at a staggering 900 ft. lbs (est.) of torque! Run this
through a beefed up clutch and the manual tranny. Have the Dutchman
build up a killer rear end with his custom racing axles. What you would
have is an electric Vette that does 0-60 in the 4's, the quarter mile at
maybe 12.5 seconds @ 110 mph, and when driven easy up to 100 miles
range. Assuming a $30,000 figure for the battery pack with BMS and PFC
charger system, and $10,000 for the Zilla Z2k-Hairball-Siamese 9 setup,
you're right at that $40,000 figure.
(2) The AC powered Vette:
Again, start with any one of the Vettes from '84-'91, as the body style
is very similar with very little changes between them. Assuming a
'before' weight of 3300 lbs., after pulling the V8, the stock tranny,
the exhaust, radiator, and the other stuff, the glider will be at around
2600 lbs. The large inverter and a single BIG AC motor will come in at
around 250 lbs. and other under-hood goodies will add 50 lbs., so the
car's at 2900 lbs. Install a small but oh-so-stout Lenco air-shift 2
speed tranny at 75 lbs. Add in a 500 lb. 360 volt high performance LiIon
pack based on cells like the A123, and along with some battery cases,
bracketry and slightly lighter cabling, and you've got a 3535 lb. Vette,
about 235 lbs. heavier than stock. Put some dollars into revised springs
and shocks for the additional weight. Now, you've got a pack that at a
full 1500 battery amps, will only sag to maybe 290 volts under that full
load...435 kw! At maybe 90% efficiency at a 1500 amp motor current, an
AC system with an induction motor would make an honest 524 hp at about
675 ft. lbs (est.) of torque! Run this through a Lenco 2 speed
air-shifted racing tranny and put in 5:88 rear end gears. Have the
Dutchman build up a killer rear end with his custom racing axles. What
you would have is an electric Vette that does 0-60 in the high 3's, the
quarter mile at maybe 11.7 seconds @ 118 mph, and when driven easy up to
130 miles range. Because of 500 amps lower max currents and lower light
cruise currents (only slightly lower than the DC powered version),
compared to the DC powered Vette, the LiIon pack in this AC version will
probably live longer in regards to ultimate cycle life. Assuming a
$30,000 figure for the battery pack with BMS and PFC charger system, and
$30,000 for the 450kw AC system, you're way over that $40,000 figure,
now to the tune of $60,000, but what a scream'n machine it would be!
Of course, the above AC Vette is over the limit by a lot. Even a detuned
model with the same 450 hp as the DC car would cost $50,000.
To keep the cost the same as the DC car, we're back to a $10,000 budget
for the AC system. To keep the same performance level as the DC system
even considering the higher AC system's 90% efficiency, we'd need 340kw
to get an honest 410 hp. Though 410 hp is a bit less than the DC's 450
hp, the AC Vette is a pinch lighter, so the performance would probably
be a dead match. The question is, can anyone design and build a 340kw AC
system (controller and motor) for $10,000? If so, the 500 lb. LiIon pack
would have even less stress on it at full throttle currents, which would
be somewhere in the 1100 amp @ 310 sagged volts range.
(3) For my tastes, the heavy over-styled Vette just isn't my cup of tea.
I've never been a Vette fan, never will be. I also have little desire to
have a sports car over a capable fast little sedan. I like small, light
sedans, and I especially like the classic shape and size of exactly what
I already own, my twin little Datsun 1200 sedans. In addition, as I have
so often pointed out, it's way more fun to blow off unsuspecting dotes
in their flashy sports cars, with a unassuming little sedan :-) With
this in mind, I already own an EV that runs very low 12's on street
tires, using better quality lead acid batteries. Yes, it only has a 35
mile range, but other than this shortcoming, I am pretty pleased with
its current performance level. However....I still want even more
performance! I've got a new Hawker pack planned that will up the ante
with more then 130 extra battery horsepower for the coming 2007 racing
season, and 11's are most certain...but I digress.
For well under the $40,000 figure, I'd pull the 700 lbs. of lead acid
batteries and install the same 500 lb. lithium pack prescribed for the
Vette project, in White Zombie. The car would loose 200 lbs. instantly
and it would gain tremendous power with a full 2000 amps of 'battery'
current at a much higher loaded voltage. The lighter 2200 lb. sedan
would scorch the 1/4 mile in the very low 11's or even possibly the high
10's, 0-60 would fall to 3 seconds flat, but the sweetest part of the
deal is, that White Zombie would have a 200+ mile range per charge! With
10 grand left over in the budget, a true 4 link rear suspension,
subframe connectors, and with this much power on tap - wheelie bars,
would help the already incredible launch the car has. With still lots of
cash to spend, some minor body work and fresh snow white paint, plus a
simple but higher detail level interior and a full blown Wayland style
sound system would complete the Zombie make-over. There you have it, the
EV of my dreams...a small kick ass take no prisoners compact sedan with
performance not too many street cars can match, and 200 miles range! Of
course, it would take about $15,000 to duplicate White Zombie as it is
presently, but minus the current $4000 Hawker pack, that drops the price
to $11,000. Still, with the $30,000 liIon pack the car's price goes
over the $40,000 ceiling, but only by $1000 :-)
OK, back to reality...I've gotta go out back to my EV shop and finish up
the 12V circuits and the low voltage rewiring make-over for White Zombie
so I can take it out for a little Fall cruise this weekend where I'll
take photos of it in front of the awesome Fall colors we're getting this
crisp and clear October!
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lead dipping buss bars into a pot of lead, does not work, unless you applied
tinning solution to the copper and then you must preheat the copper first
before you dip it.
If you just dip cold copper bar into lead, the lead will cool too quickly
and will not bind on to the copper. You can knock it right off. Its like a
cold solder joint that has a dull appearance.
I use a tinning solution that I got from a welding supplier. It looks like
clear water. You can applied it to all metals. It is normally used for
applying silver solder in different temperatures rating that comes in
different stick lengths.
After you clean, tin, preheat and dip it, quickly wipe the surface with a
damp cloth to give it a smooth surface.
What I did on my copper bars, was applied the silver solder tinning solution
just round the drill holes at each of the buss bar. Using a torch, I
applied a lower temperature silver solder about 1 inch diameter around and
inside the drill holes.
Get this tinning solution and silver solder from a welding supplier, not
plumbing type from a hardware store.
You can get the silver solder in different temperature ratings from 300
degrees to 1000 degrees. It takes a ox/acl torch for the higher
temperatures.
We also use the higher temperature silver solder to weld on new contact
buttons for contactors.
Again after you applied the silver solder and while it still looks wet
looking, you can wipe it with a damp cloth to give it a smooth finish if you
did not get it on smoothly.
Did only one side that make contact with the battery post. I then painted
the buss bar with Appliance Epoxy paint except for the contact point.
Many companies have battery clamps that are epoxy coated to prevent
corrosion.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: Buss Bars
> About lead-dipping them - my guess is that some sort of flux should be
> applied to the copper parts first. I don't know of a source for "resin"
> flux in quantity, but I can get a big tube of flux cheap at the BORG in
> the
> plumbing department..
>
> That's probably acid flux, so would it be a bad idea to use it on bus
> bars?
>
> When I was a yout, I remember hearing "never use acid core solder on
> electronics", so, I never have.
>
> Phil
>
>
> >From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: Buss Bars
> >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:11:43 -0500
> >
> >Adrian DeLeon wrote:
> >>I'm using 1" x 1/16" Cu bar with T-105 batteries in a 114V system...
> >
> >This sounds like a very reasonable way to do it. The only difference I'd
> >make is to lead-dip them to provide the corrosion resistance. I wouldn't
> >depend on heat shrink to keep water or acid from wicking underneath.
> >
> >1" x 1/16" is a bit on the thin side for 125 amps average; it won't
> >overheat, but will cost you a bit of voltage drop.
> >
> >At (say) 6" per strip and 19 batteries, you have 9 feet of this strip.
> >Its
> >cross-sectional area is 0.0625 sq.in, which is equivalent to #7 wire. #7
> >has 0.000498 ohms per foot, or 0.00448 ohms for a 9-foot length. At 125
> >amps, it produces a voltage drop of V = .00448 x 125 = 0.56 volts.
> >--
> >Ring the bells that still can ring
> >Forget the perfect offering
> >There is a crack in everything
> >That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> >--
> >Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The next generation of Search-say hello!
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
with more then 130 extra battery horsepower for the coming 2007 racing
season, 11's are most certain...
I'd say so! Congrats on that!
Have you seen these recent Auto Meter gauges that claim to be able to
calculate 0-60, 60-0, 1/4 mile times, hp, and g-forces? That would be
cool to have. I could see news reporter types quoting those numbers
in their sensational stories.
http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugedetail.aspx?ref=search&gid=3293
http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugedetail.aspx?ref=search&gid=3284
Info:
http://www.autometer.com/cat_dpic.aspx?gid=3284&sid=4
Instructions(8 megs):
http://www.autometer.com/download_instruction/dpic%20inst.pdf
Also, check this out if you haven't already seen it, particularly the
"Instant Center" info:
http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/info/Launching_A_Drag_Car.htm
A123
I wonder how much mark up they currently have on these? If you had a
single cell in your hand, how much in raw materials cost is in one
battery?
How cheap are these cells going to have to be before they are
affordable enough for EV use? Maybe a really, really large group buy
could get the cost down? If 15 or 20 people need a few thousand
batteries each? Then what to do about a BMS? These A123s are very
reminiscent of the Bolder Technologies cells. John, I'm actually
really surprised you don't have A123 sponsorship.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know we've discussed this in the past, and I was paying attention. We
never really came to a conclusion, according to my notes, beyond "some
people use the tailshaft, some use leftover motors, and one company
actually had motors made (which are now rare)".
I don't have much space for mounting a pulley assembly on the end of my
motor, and I'm looking at plan B for air conditioning.
I want a motor that I can connect directly to my 144V pack and ignore.
I'd rather not have to purchase a new controller to regulate it. I want
to just hook it up and go.
I just finished an extensive Google, Froogle, sciplus, Harbor Freight,
and anything-else-I-could-think-of search. I understand that permanent
magnet motors will self-regulate their speed, so I gave preference to
them, but I didn't eliminate anything on that basis.
I only found two motors that *might* do the job:
http://www.e-motorsonline.com/emotors/viewproduct_dcm.php?catid=2&Pid=DCM00324
http://www.e-motorsonline.com/emotors/viewproduct_dcm.php?catid=2&Pid=DCM00117
Since I found these in a aggregator service, I'm not even sure they're
still available.
Can anybody help me find a good accessory motor?
Thanks,
Jude Anthony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
I'm wanting to replace my 3 brake light bulbs as they pull .3 amps from
the 300v pack thru the dc-dc. That's just a plain waste. Then there are
the 2 running light elements as well.
The problem is that my S10 uses those in line sockets so the leds would
have to be installed at 90 degrees in order to point rearward.
I just visited the Ledtronics link --
http://www.ledtronics.com/markets/auto_index.htm -- in an ealier post
and found 90 degree 1157 replacement bulbs.
Jude Anthony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Nick wrote:
If anyone is still following this thread, John's input is much
appreciated. Details are always important...
Thanks for the nice words.
To me (and I think I represent many "average" drivers) these details
are not as important as the fact that the Electrovair WAS remarkably
similar to the EV1 and predated it by 30 years.
I guess we can politely disagree on this. Other than a high voltage pack
and an AC drive train, they aren't similar at all. The Corvair was a
brick going down the road, aerodynamically speaking....the EV1 had the
lowest CD of any production car in the world. The Corvair made crude,
growling noises...the EV1 was nearly silent accompanies by a
sophisticated 'whir'. The Corvair used megadollar one-off silver-zinc
batteries and only got a maximum of 80 miles range....the EV1 with
common lead acid batteries went farther, and with higher tech batteries
(but nowhere near as exclusive as the silver-zinc) pretty much doubled
the Corvair's range. The Corvair had dreadful golf car image
perpetuating 0-60 performance...for the period it was introduced in, the
EV1 had thrilling 0-60 performance that shattered the golf car image.
Sure, they weren't the same car, but even now the specs of the
Electrovair would still be a pretty nice EV.
How do you figure? 0-60 in 16 seconds is anything but 'a pretty nice
EV'. An 80 mile max range with a pack that today would cost $50,000 is
laughable and barely any better than a good 'ol 120V pack of golf car
batteries. More importantly, that same 80 mile max range from the 60's
was available in the 60's from ordinary lead acid batteries.
As I see it, if GM could make an EV that well in the 1960s, then the
following 40 years should have produced way better EVs than anything
we've seen so far.
The way I see it is quite different, I guess. The EV1 proved just how
far we've come in EV development. EVs were once thought to never be able
to have gas car type performance, as evidenced by the Electrovair's
slug-mobile performance. The EV1 busted that myth right open with high 7
second tire smoking 0-60 blasts that for many, created their first EV
grin! EVs used to be horrible handlers, but the EV1 blew that wide open,
too. EVs were once thought to never be able to cruise at high speeds and
get over 80 miles, let alone 100 miles range. The EV1 again, shredded
that myth with 130+ miles at 70-75 mph!
For me, the Electrovair was an expensive, disappointing, low performance
perpetuation of the EV myth. The Electovair did nothing at all to make
anyone 'want' an EV...the EV1 made people 'desire' an electric car! The
EV1 in stark contrast, was a short lived hero that blew away all the
stigmas and lies about EVs in a way so big, that try as the likes of
GM's Dave Barthmuss do, the Genie cannot be stuffed back in the bottle!
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Friday, 13 October 2006
*Technology Research Laboratories introduces Battery Technology that
Achieves 100 Miles with Hybrid Electric Vehicles*
Research Triangle Park, NC and Port Orange, Florida -- Technology Research
Laboratories (TRL) is announcing a new long-life battery technology that can
make hybrid electric vehicle traveling a reality. The battery's unique
properties of low cost, long life and safety are all characteristics that
are a necessity of a power source for electric vehicles, or any consumer and
industrial product.
TRL's battery operates on physical chemistry principles different from those
of conventional batteries. It resembles nothing on the market. The battery
utilizes materials that are plentiful, inexpensive and far less polluting
than other battery devices. Fabricated almost entirely of carbon and
plastic, the battery has the ability to withstand severe electrical abuse,
including total discharge or disuse for prolonged time periods.
A very immediate and attractive application is the "plug-in" hybrid-electric
car. These cars have been around for years but until now, the power sources
have been very unreliable. The TRL battery provides a means to achieve
hybrid electric vehicles with a range of 75 or more miles per charge. Tests
from TRL confirm that a typical 4-passenger electric car powered by less
than 1000 pounds of TRL batteries would have a range of between 75 and 100
mile depending upon speed and road conditions.
*History*
From the early 19th century to the present the attempts have continued
toward developing a practical electrically powered road vehicle. The
obstacles have been the same for the past 150 years – a practical source of
motive power, i.e., economical source of electrical energy. An electrically
rechargeable battery is the most desirable solution. Despite its simplicity,
the electric car never became a commercial success because of its limited
range and uncertainty of returning home on a charge.
In order for the hybrid design approach to have a significant impact upon
"fuel consumption", the range of the hybrid operating solely on battery
charge must be in the region of typical driving for a large portion of
motorists. That range is probably in the 100 to 150 miles per day, including
some margin for unusual amounts of travel. With such performance the hybrid
car could be driven on battery power most of the time, and the internal
combustion engine used only for extended trips.
Predominant problems preventing or seriously inhibiting the practical
commercialization of the electric car are:
• Battery life
• Battery cost
• Battery weight
TRL now has a solution that has been long coming.
TRL is seeking to place the technology with organizations that have the
necessary manufacturing and marketing capabilities to bring it to fruition
as useful energy products. The battery also has potential applications for
stand-alone wind or solar power systems and power station load leveling.
For more detailed information and specifications on the technology, please
visit
http://www.AlternativeEnergyStorage.com<http://www.alternativeenergystorage.com/>and
http://www.hybridnrg.com .
*About Technology Research Laboratories*
TRL is an independent R&D company with over 35 years of developing unique
energy systems. Their purpose is to properly place new technology so that it
may be taken to commercialization as products. Prototypes for test and
evaluation are available.
*Media contact:*
Ralph Zito
Technology Research Laboratories, Inc.
Port orange, Florida
Phone: (386) 763-9340
Fax: (386) 763-9341
[EMAIL PROTECTED] This email address is being protected from spam bots, you
need Javascript enabled to view it
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's some very large motors. How about a treadmill motor? They run
off 130V and are rated for 2.25hp, they'll probably do 1hp
continously. I don't know if torque and rpm will match the needs of
your A/C though.
You can find them on ebay for $50 all the time.
here's one with controller
Item number: 170037906094
-Peter
On 10/13/06, Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I know we've discussed this in the past, and I was paying attention. We
never really came to a conclusion, according to my notes, beyond "some
people use the tailshaft, some use leftover motors, and one company
actually had motors made (which are now rare)".
I don't have much space for mounting a pulley assembly on the end of my
motor, and I'm looking at plan B for air conditioning.
I want a motor that I can connect directly to my 144V pack and ignore.
I'd rather not have to purchase a new controller to regulate it. I want
to just hook it up and go.
I just finished an extensive Google, Froogle, sciplus, Harbor Freight,
and anything-else-I-could-think-of search. I understand that permanent
magnet motors will self-regulate their speed, so I gave preference to
them, but I didn't eliminate anything on that basis.
I only found two motors that *might* do the job:
http://www.e-motorsonline.com/emotors/viewproduct_dcm.php?catid=2&Pid=DCM00324
http://www.e-motorsonline.com/emotors/viewproduct_dcm.php?catid=2&Pid=DCM00117
Since I found these in a aggregator service, I'm not even sure they're
still available.
Can anybody help me find a good accessory motor?
Thanks,
Jude Anthony
--- End Message ---
