EV Digest 6024
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Gliders
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) RE: E-volks now offering a series motor
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Electrovair Corrections
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: E-volks now offering a series motor
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Gliders
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Good batteries exist now, and in use
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Good batteries exist now, and in use
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Right price for Lithium...
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Ceramic Heaters
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Cooling system for a EV
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hondas: Good for newbie converters?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Cooling system for a EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Are we missing the boat on charging infr.?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Ceramic Heaters
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Electrovair Corrections
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Are we missing the boat on charging infr.?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: E-volks now offering a series motor
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Are we missing the boat on charging infr.?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I had a Solectria and I do not remember the factory VIN being changed. There
are Solectria owners on the list they could check and see.
Buying gliders from the manufacturers has been done I don't see this as an
answer though. The current demand can be met with conversions of ICE with less
risk. It is also a better use of an existing resource.
The larger problem is getting the pricing down on the major parts to lower
prices so more people change over. Even if the range is not what they want if
the price is right more will buy. The general population still has a problem
with anything under 300 miles. A 50 or 100 mile range which sounds great to
most EV drivers might be the range that would increase general public
acceptance. This would support the increase in production of EV parts and
reduce
prices.
Don
In a message dated 10/15/2006 12:19:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sharon G Alexander wrote:
> The reason no manufacturer will make "gliders" is that it wouldnt have a
complete VIN number,,,,, with out a VIN number it cant be titled or taged
>
>
VIN numbers are not going to be the issue. Two ways it could be handled:
Glider ships with no VIN, and converter takes full responsibility for
crash testing completed vehicle.
Or it can be done as it is done for RVs or Roland's experience. The
vehicle is assigned two VINs, or it keeps the chassis VIN. Yes, the
Chassis VIN will have some fields for engine data that will not be
correct, but that is only a minor issue. The important issue for
titling is that the VIN indicate the gross weight (by identifying the
model) and that the VIN is unique. Insurers like to use the additional
data enclosed in the VIN like engine size for adjusting the rates, but
they will just have to deal.
Interestingly, the practice of using some numbers of the VIN to
indicated place of manufacture, engine size and trim have caused
manufacturers to use up VINs faster than the SAE originally planned.
There is talk that the American manufacturers will run out of VINs
within the next 5-10 model years. Currently the SAE is steal VIN
prefixes originally planned for manufacturers in other countries and
reassigning them to the American manufacturers. Even this will only
delay the issue, there is also talk of adding additional characters to
the VINs (bad, since lots of computers systems have the length
hardcoded) or recycling VINs assigned to very old vehicles.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
> Another interesting point is that they show the 6.7" dia
> motor with a blue casing at the top photo, but the other 2
> pics show a 9" dia motor with a sticker on the motor mount
> that looks like 'CanadiaN' in large type and other words in
> smaller type on it. Anybody recognize the sticker?
Canadian Electric Vehicles <http://www.canev.com>.
The blue motor is a D&D; the black one is likely an ADC8". The pictures
with the black motor are of an installation in a Geo Metro/Sprint/Swift,
and it appears that they are using components from CEVs conversion kit:
the motor mount (with the CEV sticker), and the adapter plate for sure.
It is possible that they also purchase their D&D and ADC motors from
Randy, as he sells both.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Not to beat a dead horse, but....
Lee Hart wrote:
John Wayland wrote:
Perhaps Lee was generalizing with his comments.
Of course I was, John. I didn't think anyone would interpret "same" to
mean "identical".
Careful Lee, you're starting to sound Clintonesque!
There's also the problem that there was more than one Electrovair, and
more than one EV1.
All the more reason you should have not made the generalization and
comparison you did. You should have been more specific. For example, I
used the last version of the Electrovair that was based on a '66 Corvair
Monsa, and compared it to a stock '66 Monsa....apples to apples. The
stock 110 hp '66 Corvair Monsa ran 0-60 in just under 11 seconds, but
the 500 lb. heavier '66 Electrovair with aprox. the same hp took a
tedious 16 seconds to get from 0-60 mph. You also said they compared the
Electrovair to a 'high performance' Corvair, but their assertion is
simply false. At the time of the 16 second 0-60 capable Electrovair, the
Corvair considered to be the high performance model had 180 turbocharged
horses! Still don't think 30 years has made any difference? How's this?
The EV1 would kick those 180 turbocharged gasoline fueled horses butts
in the 0-60 run. Before the EV1, EVers were afraid to compare their
electric machines's 0-60 runs to even economy type gas cars, let alone a
high performance turbocharged gas car! The EV1 blew away the stereotype
of the gutless electric car...the Electrovair did nothing of the kind.
Lee, you can't choose and pick to prove your point. It's not fair to
newbies who are looking for solid, accurate info. What I mean, is you
can't compare the range of the last, best performing exotic battery
powered version of the Electrovair-tested to have a 40-80 mile range,
then compare it to the earliest, lowest performing lead acid battery
powered version of the EV1-tested to have a 60-90 mile...though this is
exactly what you did, and continue to do. You should have compared the
last, best performing exotic battery powered version of the Electrovair
with a 40-80 mile range, to the last, best performing exotic battery
powered version of the EV1 gen II with a 100-130 mile range. Had you
done this, it would be clear to others that the range wasn't even close
to being the same, nor was the 0-60 performance, no was the handling,
nor the braking, nor the......
Each was part of a whole range of cars, with slightly different
batteries, dimensions, performance, etc.
No, not true in the context that you offered. You said the Electrovair
was the same as the 'highly touted GM EV1'. Anyone reading your post
certainly thought of the highly touted EV1, as in those that hundreds of
lucky leasees had and drove on the road, not the early prototypes where
GM did in fact, experiment with various battery packs. Both gen 1 and
gen II consumer models had battery packs in the 312V - 343V range, but
the only Electrovair remotely close for comparison, had a whopping 532V
pack! How on earth, is a 532V silver-zinc pack 'the same' as a 343V NiMH
pack?
The only point I was trying to make was that these two vehicles were
very similar to each other, with most specs differing only slightly.
That is what I found *amazing*
Hearing a respected engineer say (in regards to EV range) that 130 miles
per charge and 80 miles per charge are specs that only differ 'slightly'
is what I found *amazing*! Taking a best version EV's 80 miles per
charge (using what the engineers thought were the best batteries at the
time) and stacking it against a worse version EV's 90 miles per charge
(using what the engineers knew were the lowest performing batteries at
the time compared to NiMH) is 'spinning' and is what I found *amazing*
coming from Lee. Hearing a respected engineer say that 0-60 in 16 sec.
and 0-60 in 8 seconds are specs that only differ 'slightly' is what I
found *amazing*! Hearing a respected engineer say that 3400 lb curb
weight and 2910 lb. curb weight are specs that only differ 'slightly' is
what I found *amazing*!
The Electrovair II inverter and motor on a dynamometer without the
governors delivered 120 ft.lbs of torque and 115 hp.
The GM EV1 motor produced 110 ft.lbs torque and 137 hp. The
Electrovair power plant had essentially the same torque and horsepower
as the EV1 when not governed down.
Again, coming from a respected engineer, to pronounce that 115 hp and
137 hp are 'essentially the same' is what I found *amazing*!
Lee, you used the Electrovair's inverter/motor tested in a no holds
barred environment for the max power it could make, then compared it to
the EV1's inverter/motor specs right off the production version's spec
sheet. Did you see what kind of power the EV1's inverter/motor cranked
out when the screws were turned up? Trust me, it was way more than 137
hp, and it propelled 'Sunny Side Up' their race prepped Impact
(forerunner to the EV1) to 183 mph! Now, both power plants 'uncorked'
being compared...do you think in your wildest dreams, that the
un-governed Electrovair's power plant could do the same?
It is amazing that the performance was as close to the same as it
was, given the 30-year time difference.
I don't find anything about it amazing, because the performance isn't
close to the same. I find it amazing that you and Nick can't see the
HUGE difference between these two EVs. Big deal, they both had AC drive
and high voltage packs and a limited 80 mph top speed. Other than this,
they are worlds apart! I also find it amazing that you both keep talking
about the proclaimed lack of advancement in 30 years, yet I know you
both are keenly aware that that GM didn't make a push for EV development
until they came up with the EV1 in the mid 90's and subsequently (and
temporarily) got forced to make it even better (the NiMH version) by the
California mandate. When they 'did' start up the EV development again,
they produced the world's first production EV capable of not only
keeping up with gas cars' performance, it could run off from the
sportier cars of the period!
Oh, come on John! Even the worst SCR controllers are quiet compared to
an ICE.
This, coming from a guy who has and puts up with a squealing Curtis?
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Canadian Electric Vehicles <http://www.canev.com>.
>
> The blue motor is a D&D; the black one is likely an ADC8". The pictures
> with the black motor are of an installation in a Geo Metro/Sprint/Swift,
> and it appears that they are using components from CEVs conversion kit:
> the motor mount (with the CEV sticker), and the adapter plate for sure.
> It is possible that they also purchase their D&D and ADC motors from
> Randy, as he sells both.
>
>
So why would they buy from Randy unless they were copying his layout?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or we can stop answering this silly argument which deserve EV !
having a range problem ?
What range problem ? my nicad car can do 90km per charge and 70km more every
30mn on a
fast charger.
In a 8H business journey more than 300km can be done easily with a simple
12Kwh pack !
EV don't have range problem: they have a charging infrastructure and
charging time problem !
With a 20kWh lithium pack and an onboard 20Kw charger you can solve both
"problems"
Using a little kwh lithium pack which make lithium "affordable" and fast
chargers restoring 80% range in half an hour is
imho more efficient than copying same bad ICE cars coutume (carrying 600km
range when you only use less than 100k every day)
why not carrying only double what you need everyday and just using fast
charge to go farther ?
McChargerStation welcome you Mister Y LikeWatt, fast charge or slow charge
parking place sir ?
...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Gliders
>
> I had a Solectria and I do not remember the factory VIN being changed.
There
> are Solectria owners on the list they could check and see.
>
> Buying gliders from the manufacturers has been done I don't see this as an
> answer though. The current demand can be met with conversions of ICE with
less
> risk. It is also a better use of an existing resource.
>
> The larger problem is getting the pricing down on the major parts to lower
> prices so more people change over. Even if the range is not what they want
if
> the price is right more will buy. The general population still has a
problem
> with anything under 300 miles. A 50 or 100 mile range which sounds great
to
> most EV drivers might be the range that would increase general public
> acceptance. This would support the increase in production of EV parts and
reduce
> prices.
>
> Don
>
> In a message dated 10/15/2006 12:19:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Sharon G Alexander wrote:
> > The reason no manufacturer will make "gliders" is that it wouldnt have
a
> complete VIN number,,,,, with out a VIN number it cant be titled or taged
> >
> >
> VIN numbers are not going to be the issue. Two ways it could be handled:
>
> Glider ships with no VIN, and converter takes full responsibility for
> crash testing completed vehicle.
>
> Or it can be done as it is done for RVs or Roland's experience. The
> vehicle is assigned two VINs, or it keeps the chassis VIN. Yes, the
> Chassis VIN will have some fields for engine data that will not be
> correct, but that is only a minor issue. The important issue for
> titling is that the VIN indicate the gross weight (by identifying the
> model) and that the VIN is unique. Insurers like to use the additional
> data enclosed in the VIN like engine size for adjusting the rates, but
> they will just have to deal.
>
> Interestingly, the practice of using some numbers of the VIN to
> indicated place of manufacture, engine size and trim have caused
> manufacturers to use up VINs faster than the SAE originally planned.
> There is talk that the American manufacturers will run out of VINs
> within the next 5-10 model years. Currently the SAE is steal VIN
> prefixes originally planned for manufacturers in other countries and
> reassigning them to the American manufacturers. Even this will only
> delay the issue, there is also talk of adding additional characters to
> the VINs (bad, since lots of computers systems have the length
> hardcoded) or recycling VINs assigned to very old vehicles.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I disagree with the "facts" in your message. Please add me to your
email block list.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: Good batteries exist now, and in use
Facts are hard to argue with.
1. Corrupted politicians exist. Putting themselves first, instead of their
country (which do you think they were elected to do)? Why do you think the
EV1 was crushed? Because special interest groups (oil/auto) got the
government (polluted politicians) to weaken the law which made them be
created in the first place.
2. Some companies are withholding technology that would further
independance from oil (not just USA, everyone would benefit from better
batteries), just because it MIGHT hurt their bottom line (they could
license it or produce it themselves and still make millions, if not
billions, from it)
If anyone wants to flame me or disagrees with the above facts, please send
me an email saying so. I'll be happy to add you to my email block list.
Would rather not receive or respond to emails from people who might
distribute false EV information because their political views coincide
with polluted/polluting politicians and with a self-serving oil industry.
But, I'm sure that most of the list are cheering someone who's tired of
being "politically correct" all the time.
Facts are facts. Anyone that wants to argue about them are only wanting to
hide the facts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*sighs*
I did ask that these requests be made off-list, and yet, the only offlist
messages I have received have been positive, all the negatives have been ON
list.
Things to make you go hmmm.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: Good batteries exist now, and in use
I disagree with the "facts" in your message. Please add me to your
email block list.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: Good batteries exist now, and in use
Facts are hard to argue with.
1. Corrupted politicians exist. Putting themselves first, instead of
their country (which do you think they were elected to do)? Why do you
think the EV1 was crushed? Because special interest groups (oil/auto) got
the government (polluted politicians) to weaken the law which made them
be created in the first place.
2. Some companies are withholding technology that would further
independance from oil (not just USA, everyone would benefit from better
batteries), just because it MIGHT hurt their bottom line (they could
license it or produce it themselves and still make millions, if not
billions, from it)
If anyone wants to flame me or disagrees with the above facts, please
send me an email saying so. I'll be happy to add you to my email block
list. Would rather not receive or respond to emails from people who might
distribute false EV information because their political views coincide
with polluted/polluting politicians and with a self-serving oil industry.
But, I'm sure that most of the list are cheering someone who's tired of
being "politically correct" all the time.
Facts are facts. Anyone that wants to argue about them are only wanting
to hide the facts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just out of curiosity:
What would be the optimum price of Lithium ?
Say it lasts as long as 3000 cycles with 80% DOD and offers 100 Wh/kg
(50 wh/lb). Nominal voltage 3.2 V. Operating voltage area 2-3.7 V
about 1/3th of SLA volume.
This question has as many answers as there is opinions on the list but
it seems to me that if there would be some kind of financing system for
buying Lihium cells and paying it away monthly there would many takers.
There have been talks about the lease option for ready build packs too.
-Jukka
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if these ampacity charts are for AC?
Yes. They are for AC, 60HZ.
I'd like to hear more about your ceramic heaters from the hardware
store! How did you mount them? Do they work well? What were they
adopted from?
This is the heater I used:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00019LTZA?v=glance
Most 1500W (single element) ceramic heaters use the same type of heating
element. The elements are press-fit into a plastic shroud with a fan
behind them.
Putting 2 of these in place of the original heater core was too tight a
fit, so I put them where the A/C core was. Now my heat comes out of the
side vents also! I left the heating elements attached to the plastic
shroud and screwed the shroud to a piece of UHMW (white poly cutting
board) with large holes cut out of it to let air through. I screwed the
end pieces of the original A/C core to the sides of the UHMW so it slides
into place just like the A/C core originally did.
Let's see if I can draw a picture (top view):
T T
\ sEEEEEs sEEEEEs /
| s s s s |
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
| |
/ \
(front view - UHMW and A/C plates only)
|.........................|
|.........................|
|... ..... ...|
|... ..... ...|
|... ..... ...|
|... ..... ...|
|... ..... ...|
|.........................|
|.........................|
(front view)
|.........................|
|.........................|
|...sssTsss.....sssTsss...|
|...sEEEEEs.....sEEEEEs...|
|...sEEEEEs.....sEEEEEs...|
|...sEEEEEs.....sEEEEEs...|
|...sssssss.....sssssss...|
|.........................|
|.........................|
||| = A/C end plates
... = UHMW
sss = plastic shroud
EEE = heater elements
T = temp sensor
It basically looks like I replaced the finned aluminum of the A/C core
with a piece of white plastic that has the guts of a ceramic heater
screwed to it. UHMW has a working temp of 180F, so I zip-tied a temp
sensor snap switch to part of the plastic shroud that sticks out in front
of the cores (originally some type of mounting tab). I also made sure the
air flows through the UHMW first, then the shroud, then the heating
elements...
There is plenty of space for wiring - lots of holes in the end pieces
where copper pipe used to be. Zip ties are your friend! I probably have 5
pounds of them holding various parts of my car together (cable runs,
securing cables to the frame, holding coils of wire together, mounting my
horn, holding the license plate on, etc.)
RESULTS: I've only used it a few times so far, but it's like putting the
original space heaters inside the car. With the fan on HI, the interior
warms up faster, but the air temp is cooler. I need to plug a few holes in
my firewall to keep cold air from leaking in while I'm driving! Because of
this I run both elements all the time.
At lower fan speeds the air isn't excessively hot, but I only have a 114V
battery pack and I'm not certain ALL of the PTC elements are turning on (I
may have damaged a tab on one of the heating elements).
EV Source has a write-up of various heater types (somewhat scientific
testing by John Wayland) here:
http://www.evsource.com/articles/heater_compare.php
============
UHMW is somewhat difficult to cut. With a scroll saw or band saw the cut
tends to weld back together behind the blade. A jig saw on slow speed with
a rough blade (8-10 TPI) works well. UHMW holds screws well. I usually use
#6 sheet metal screws with a 1/8" pilot hole. If you strip a hole, fill it
with the spiral shavings from drilling pilot holes and restart the screw.
Or use a #8 screw in the stripped hole.
I've used UHMW for model airplane landing gear and motor mounts. It's
tough stuff! I've also bolted large pieces of it under the hood of my car
to provide flat areas for mounting controllers, pot boxes, vacuum pumps,
etc. I even have a piece of it for my SLI battery hold down.
Good luck!
Adrian
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check this out how this guy cools his EV with no compressors, electric
accessory motors or belts, just 12 volt power.
There is a source of supply and cost data at:
http://www.swampy.net/ev.html
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I reiterate: If you love machining, do whatever you
like, that has a good GVWR. If this is a new
experience, and you want to know for a fact that the
rig will get on the road, copy someone else's design,
if it seems safe and has the range requirements you
need.
--- Steve Kobb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've studied Bob Bath's website, as well as Mike
> Chancey's. As you probably know, both focus on the
> conversion of Hondas.
>
> Here are some questions for The List:
>
> Are Hondas good donor cars for first-time EV
> converters? Aside from the reverse-rotation issue,
> is there anything else about Hondas that make them
> unusually difficult for newbies?
>
> (By "newbie", I mean not only someone who's working
> on his first conversion, but also someone who does
> not have professional-level auto maintenance
> skills.)
>
> If I wanted to do a small Asian car, would I be
> better advised to work on a Toyota, Kia, Hyundai,
> etc.? Or is it impossible to discuss suitability at
> the make-level?; i.e., do we have to talk about
> specific models that may or may not be appropriate?
>
> Let me know.
>
> Steve Kobb
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the real key to his effectiveness is the insulation, tinted windows
and sealing up any air leaks. For any car, this would probably have a big
impact on the amount of energy required to heat or cool the cabin of the
car.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: October 15, 2006 2:06 PM
To: ev
Subject: Cooling system for a EV
Check this out how this guy cools his EV with no compressors, electric
accessory motors or belts, just 12 volt power.
There is a source of supply and cost data at:
http://www.swampy.net/ev.html
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We've been kicking around the battery dilemma for
years. But as I was mulling the dismay at having to
drive my ICE Odyssey to a methodist youth event (Yep,
centered on the _environment_), I was thinking about
how they do it in San Francisco and other big cities:
they have suspended cables. Ugly? You bet. But not
as ugly as what is being done to our air and poles.
Would we really give a rip about battery
technology, if the only charge we needed to carry was
from a freeway off-ramp to a city side-street?
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Between this post and your 1997 test of several heating systems John,
I think it's time to replace the liquid system in the USE S10. when I
hit the heater button the Emeter shows 7 amps at 300v. 2100+ watts and
it's just far too slow to warmup and inadeaquate when it finally does.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > You can buy the (semi)expensive ceramic cores that folks sell for
EVs or
> > you can pay $15 for a ceramic cube at Walmart. I went the Walmart
route
> > myself. You do have to be careful though, the connectors on the
> > elements of the cheap walmart cubes are fragile.
>
> In recommending which ceramic element type, one needs to be aware
that they are 'not' all
> created equal. Jim points out how the Walmart type, inexpensive
heater's element has
> fragile connections, and that's good that he did. However, the most
important difference
> between this inexpensive type, and the highest quality ones like
Randy Holmquist sells
> through his Canadian EV parts supply network (I think, Rod Wilde at
EV Parts carries this
> same unit as well?), is the honey comb construction and how it can
pass a volume of air
> flow...in this regard, there is a huge difference!
>
> In a vehicle, you need adequate air flow in order to get heated air
directed to the
> furthest parts of the windshield, side glass, etc. From the late
70's and on, vehicle
> heater-ventilation fans have been high cfm units, almost always
squirrel cage blowers,
> that move torrents of air through heater cores that restrict said
airflow very little
> while being able to supply a huge amount of heat. The typical heater
blower in imports and
> American vehicles alike, draws anywhere from 12-16 amps on 'high',
and can deliver high
> volume air simultaneously through multiple dash ducts, heater ducts,
and defroster ducts!
> The last thing you want to do in an EV heater, is restrict this
airflow with an element
> that cannot pass that airflow easily.
>
> I did tests on the el cheapo units, compared to the Randy H. units,
a long time ago. I've
> tried, perhaps 5 different elements, like the ones that come in desk
top 'personal'
> heaters. These all seem to have elements with a fine mesh type honey
comb, and these all
> have wimpy little blade fans that are driven off a shaded pole type
AC motor...very little
> air movement. This works OK, as the slower the air through the
element, the hotter it
> feels. None of these heaters however, deliver a good rush of air one
can feel from, say 5
> feet away. The units Randy sells, are very different. These have a
much more open mesh
> honey comb that you can hold up and see through easily. They are
very ruggedly made, with
> firm terminals on the side, too. You can put the output of a
squirrel cage blower to one
> of these, and hardly feel any reduction of air flow as it exits the
core.....perfect for
> use in the automotive heater system.
>
> If you are going to use ceramic elements, and you want your conversion's
> heater-defroster-dash vent system to work like it did with the
standard heater core, avoid
> using those under $20 elements, as you'll really be
disappointed....they simply restrict
> air flow way too much. With the capability of not restricting air
flow, one of Randy's
> elements cannot keep up with said air flow if the blower if on the
hurricane force mode,
> so the air exiting the vents is only warm, not hot....you need twin
elements to get very
> hot air at very high air flow levels, but this setup pretty much
matches the extreme heat
> and air flow levels that the original heated liquid core system put out.
>
> On older cars and trucks, such as my early seventies Datsuns, they
used just 'OK' heater
> fans...they draw about 7 amps on High, and in the highest speed,
move about the same
> amount of air, as modern car heaters do on the 1st or 2nd setting.
Because of this
> mediocre air flow, one element can keep the exiting air pretty hot,
even with the fan on
> High.
>
> This air flow volume thing may not seem too important, but it really
is. Trust me, on a
> c-cold morning when you've got ice to melt off the windshield, or
simply driving with
> sleet trying freeze the wipers, you don't want some low volume,
whisper of air trying to
> clear that windshield off....you want two of Randy's elements force
fed by the full
> throttle of
> the vehicle's beefy squirrel cage fan jam'n hot air out hose
defroster vents! You just
> can't get adequate air flow through the inexpensive elements that
come with those small
> heaters from the hardware, home improvement, and drug stores.
>
> See Ya.......John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've resisted the temptation to jump in until now, but... ;^>
John Wayland wrote:
> Before the EV1, EVers were afraid to compare their
> electric machines's 0-60 runs to even economy type
> gas cars, let alone a high performance turbocharged
> gas car!
Really? John, you already had White Zombie and Blue Meanie at that
time, and were no more afraid to compare their performance to ICE cars
then than now. As a matter of fact, although I don't recall now whether
it was you with Zombie or Rod with Maniac Mazda who went up against the
Impact/EV1 in Phoenix in the early 90's, I do recall the cheering in the
stands when the homebuilt DC EV beat the high tech AC car in the 1/4mi.
(Yeah, yeah, I seem to recall there being some excuse about it still
having the 180mph gear set installed... excuses, excuses: the timeslip
remains ;^)
The fact is that before or after the EV1, high performance homebuilt EVs
were just as possible, but since performance costs most hobbiests build
in just what they need due to practicalities of budgetary constraints.
Other than the present 'production' EV sportscars (Tesla, Venturi),
"none" of the high performance EVs use any technology that derived from
the EV1 (NiMH batteries, AC drive, etc.).
> > The only point I was trying to make was that these two
> > vehicles were very similar to each other, with most
> > specs differing only slightly. That is what I found
> > *amazing*
>
>
> Hearing a respected engineer say (in regards to EV range)
> that 130 miles per charge and 80 miles per charge are
> specs that only differ 'slightly' is what I found
> *amazing*!
That would be amazing, but Lee didn't say anything of the sort. It is
well known that you have great respect for the EV1, but you aren't doing
any newbie a service by biasing the discussion like this.
Consider that the difference between the first generation EV1's range
and that of the latest Electrovair really is remarkably slight despite
the fairly large amount of time that elapsed between the two. Slapping
better batteries in the 2nd gen EV1 certainly increased its range, but
this reflects the improvement in the *battery* technology, not some huge
improvement in the *vehicle* itself.
Lee has clarified that the rationale for comparing the Electrovair to
the 1st gen EV1 is that their battery packs are similar in capacity.
This allows the performance differences of the *vehicles* to be
compared.
Can't you admit that it is amazing that the Electrovair was essentially
a *conversion* of a production vehicle and was 500lb heavier than the
stock vehicle, yet was within a few % of the same weight as the
designed-from-the-ground-up as a no-holds-barred EV EV1 and had similar
range as the 1st gen EV1? This, again, despite the fact that while both
cars had very similar motors (oil-cooled, 3-phase AC, with very similar
weight, torque, max RPM and hp), and despite the fact that the
Electrovair had the distinct disadvantage of an inverter running
slow-switching SCR devices?
For the benefit of those who don't know, SCR controllers tend to switch
at such low frequencies that they result in an audible 'growl' from the
motor, and subject the batteries to such large ripple current that the
range of an EV using one is about 1/2 that of the same vehicle fitted
with a higher frequency MOSFET controller, such as used by the EV1. We
don't know if the Electrovair's SCR controller was designed to avoid
this, but John is certainly assuming that it wasn't, since he assumes
that it would have been noisy (which is a symptom of the low-frequency,
high-current pulses). If this is the case, then John must acknowledge
that it truly is amazing that even the best Electrovair achieved a range
so close to even the worst EV1 since the EV1 had about the same energy
onboard, was within a few % of the Electrovair's weight, but was highly
optimised in terms of rolling resistance and aerodynamics and had the
advantage of a high-frequency controller that would allow it to get
nearly 2x the range from the same battery pack compared to the
Electrovair's SCR controller.
> Did you see what kind of power the EV1's inverter/motor cranked
> out when the screws were turned up? Trust me, it was way more
> than 137hp
Do *you* actually know what it put out? I'd be interested to know
actual values if you've got them.
> > It is amazing that the performance was as close to the same as it
> > was, given the 30-year time difference.
>
>
> I don't find anything about it amazing, because the performance
> isn't close to the same. I find it amazing that you and Nick
> can't see the HUGE difference between these two EVs. Big deal,
> they both had AC drive and high voltage packs and a limited 80
> mph top speed. Other than this, they are worlds apart!
Please, John, recognise that nobody is saying that the EV1 wasn't a
truly outstanding EV and come off the defensive long enough to recognise
the falacy of what you are tying to promote as the "truth". What is
being said is that given the 30 years of development time, it is amazing
that the EV1 didn't stand out even farther.
Consider the significance of the similarities between the Electrovair
and EV1 technology-wise:
- both used oil-cooled, 3-phase AC induction motors of similar weight,
torque, and hp, as well as of similar max RPM (i.e. the EV1's motor
technology was essentially unchanged from what was available 30yrs
prior).
- with similar amounts of energy onboard (pack voltage and chemistry is
irrelevant), the vehicles were capable of travelling similar distance
(i.e. despite significant differences in the power devices available to
the EV1, its motor/controller did not apparently achieve significantly
better efficiency than what was possible 30yrs prior).
- both ended up near the same weight (yes, the EV1 was slightly smaller
and lighter, but it was also a 2-seater while the Electrovair was a
4-seater)
Now consider how they truly were worlds apart:
- the Electrovair was based on a production car, and so was essentially
a conversion, which we all know is about the *worst* way to build a
lightweight, efficient and high-pro EV. Despite this, it ended up only
500lbs heavier than the ICE Electrovair and managed to achieve 0-60
performance similar to at least some of the ICE Electrovairs.
- the EV1 was designed from the ground up as an EV, with efficiency and
performance in mind, yet ended up very near to the same weight as the
Electrovair (despite being (slightly) physically smaller and a 2-seater
to boot), and with similar energy onboard was capable of the same or
only slightly greater range than the Electrovair.
> I also find it amazing that you both keep talking
> about the proclaimed lack of advancement in 30 years,
> yet I know you both are keenly aware that that GM
> didn't make a push for EV development until they
> came up with the EV1 in the mid 90's
I don't think anyone interpreted the lack of advancement statement as
suggesting that GM was working away on EV development throughout the 30
years separating the Electrovair and EV1. The fact is that during that
30 years, whether GM was involved or not, there were advancements in
power devices available, and computing power (for more intelligent,
optimised control strategies, as well as incredibly more powerful design
tools), etc., and there were certainly plenty of other people and
companies working away through the 30yr period on motor control (AC and
otherwise) for other industries, and on batteries, etc. Certainly, one
would assume that EV-focused or not, GM probably learned something about
ways to reduce rolling losses and aero losses in the intervening 30
years, as well as probably something about how to build lighter,
stronger cars.
Whether you are willing to admit it or not, it truly is amazing to
others that 30 years later there wasn't a larger difference in the motor
specs (i.e. that for similar output as the Electrovair, the EV1 motor
wasn't much ligher, or was capable of a wider RPM range, etc.), and it
is amazing that the cars are as similar in weight as they are, and it is
amazing that the cars went such a similar distance on similar amounts of
energy.
Now I've said my bit, so I'll leave you and Lee to go at it ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my hometown there used to be buses powered by overhead power lines
similar to light rail. They only had enough battery capacity to make
short trips away from the overhead lines. Some models were even
tethered to the power lines through a sprinloaded cord and couldn't go
more than a few meters away from the power lines.
The buses has since been replaced by light rail and regular buses
On 10/15/06, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
We've been kicking around the battery dilemma for
years. But as I was mulling the dismay at having to
drive my ICE Odyssey to a methodist youth event (Yep,
centered on the _environment_), I was thinking about
how they do it in San Francisco and other big cities:
they have suspended cables. Ugly? You bet. But not
as ugly as what is being done to our air and poles.
Would we really give a rip about battery
technology, if the only charge we needed to carry was
from a freeway off-ramp to a city side-street?
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Death to All Spammers wrote:
> So why would they buy from Randy unless they were copying his layout?
Dunno. It might be that they are too small (or lack the credit, etc) to
buy motors directly from D&D or ADC, and so bought motors and adapters
from Randy instead.
As to them planning to copy the layout, I suppose only time will tell
;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Picture of line bus
http://www.ringlinien.org/vagnhallen/visabuss.asp?id=1
One Swedish city is a apparently bringing the line bus back
http://user.bahnhof.se/~tjkomm/
I'm not entirely convinced that the overhead line method can be used
to power cars since the distance to the ground would limit the maximum
voltage. It would also be a safety hazard.
On 10/15/06, Peter Gabrielsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In my hometown there used to be buses powered by overhead power lines
similar to light rail. They only had enough battery capacity to make
short trips away from the overhead lines. Some models were even
tethered to the power lines through a sprinloaded cord and couldn't go
more than a few meters away from the power lines.
The buses has since been replaced by light rail and regular buses
On 10/15/06, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We've been kicking around the battery dilemma for
> years. But as I was mulling the dismay at having to
> drive my ICE Odyssey to a methodist youth event (Yep,
> centered on the _environment_), I was thinking about
> how they do it in San Francisco and other big cities:
> they have suspended cables. Ugly? You bet. But not
> as ugly as what is being done to our air and poles.
>
> Would we really give a rip about battery
> technology, if the only charge we needed to carry was
> from a freeway off-ramp to a city side-street?
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
