EV Digest 6050
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV controllers? Practical parameters
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Tell me about the Auburn Scientific Controller
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Spiked comments on WKTEC at IMDB.COM
by Dave Muse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: After Market Electric power steering box
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EV controllers? Practical parameters
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: After Market Electric power steering box
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: After Market Electric power steering box
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Spiked comments on WKTEC at IMDB.COM
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Reattaching Magnets on PM Motors
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) NiMH number of cells don't matter for cycle-life
by doug korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) re:1980 VW Rabbit project for sale
by dm3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV controllers? Practical parameters
by "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV Podcasting
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Reattaching Magnets on PM Motors
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I actually have no idea what they do at Logisystems to increase the voltage and
amp ratings, although I get the impression that most of the $500 is actual
parts cost. (And to be perfectly honest, I don't even understand most of what
you wrote. Controllers are pretty much just a "black box" to me.) When I get
it back I'll put it to work and see and report how it works in the real world.
I do have the good fortune to have the mounting site for my controller be the
top of a 12" by 9" by 8 foot long aluminum frame member, so it's got a pretty
good heat sink ;-) I'm thinking of adding a fan as well just for fun, since
it's easy to do..
Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: How much margin is built into the PCB
traces that
connect the bus bars to the MOSFET source and drain?
I presume that all Jim is doing is installing lower
Rds on MOSFET's and higher current rated freewheel
diodes. I think the limitation will be on the
freewheel diodes since I doubt you'll find them with
double the current rating. Does Jim upgrade the bus
capacitors with more capacitance and lower ESR? If
not I would guess that there are two possible trouble
spots; if the vehicle spends the majority of time
driving around town in PWM, the freewheel diodes will
be pushed hard and the bus caps will have a shorter
life.
What about gate drive? Since you have more input
capacitance on a lower Rds on FET, you'll need a
better gate drive circuit to switch them on quickly.
If not you will have significant switching losses.
(I think Otmar's gate drive can put out 75Amps to turn
on all of the paralleled IGBT's - note that this
current is only required for a 1usec or less, but this
occurs 15,000 times a sec or equal to the PWM
frequency). Does the power supply have enough margin
for this improved gate drive?
The higher rated current control will also need an
improved cooling system to ensure adequate life of the
control. Every 10 degrees Celsius increase halves the
life of the parts, especially the bus caps who's ESR
increases with age which compounds the problems.
This upgrade depends on the end user to make
appropriate cooling decisions.
I'll be watching the Logisystems success with their
conversion, hopefully it works out for them.
Rod
--- Steve Condie
wrote:
> That's really the question, isn't it? It's a pretty
> small box for 800 amps. Jim is candid about the
> fact that there may be problems without adequate
> cooling airflow, and I'm under no illusions that it
> will be as robust a unit as my Zilla was. But there
> are some out there - I'd be interested in a real
> world experience reports as well. I won't be in a
> position to report until next summer at best.
>
> Mike Chancey wrote: Steve
> wrote:
> >I'm having a 1209 (72V, 400 amp) upgraded to 156V,
> 825 amps for
> >under $500. Jim at Logisystems gives a discount to
> EVers, but
> >they're backlogged, so I'm on a 6 week turnaround.
> I don't know
> >what the cost is if you don't have an upgradable
> unit to start with.
>
> Logisystems must have a core unit to start with.
> Without a Curtis,
> dead or alive, they cannot build anything.
>
> I do have to wonder how durable these upgraded units
> are. Anyone had
> any issues yet?
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at:
> http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate,
> not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low
> PC-to-Phone call rates.
>
>
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Condie wrote:
current multiplication
Hows that work?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What's the story behind this mysterious controller? What years was it
built, and who built it? By more then one person? What were the
prices like and was this controller any good?
Anyone know the full story from beginning to end or at least most of
it? (I'll even settle for some of it!) What brought on it's demise?
Low sales due to high price/small market and stiff competition?
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/auburn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alright, I tried to just ignore this - but it's bugging me. I don't know
how many people here have ever been to IMDB.COM , it's the Internet
Movie Database, a popular movie site where users rate movies and comment
on them.
The day before 'Who Killed the Electric Car' premiered, a group of
people (don't ask me where they came from, I could only speculate)
showed up en masse to give the movie a very low rating (they all rated
it a "2" out of 10.) No big deal, because when the real viewers showed
up, the rating went up to about 7 1/2 over the following few weeks.
Now, however, that a DVD release is planned, this same group of
troublemakers apparently came back and voted all the negative (and
misleading) movie comments to the top of the board, where people
browsing the movies will easily see them..
So what I'm asking here is for as many people as possible to visit
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/ , join IMDB (free), and vote
up/down the good/bad comments. Even a dozen votes or so would likely
turn the tide. Vote on the movie, too, as positive comments and votes
can only help with sales of the DVD.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Oct 2006 at 11:30, Rod Hower wrote:
> How much margin is built into the PCB traces ... limitation will be on the
> freewheel diodes ... upgrade the bus
> capacitors ... gate drive ...power supply ...improved cooling system ...
Rod, I think YOU'RE the one who should be designing Curtis upgrades.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Oct 2006 at 7:46, Michael Perry wrote:
> electric power steering ... You might salvage a unit from ...
I could be wrong, but I'd guess 'twill be quite a challenge, since many or
most are apt to be under the control of the vehicle's onboard computer.
You'd have to design a new controller for the PS hardware, or something to
fool the existing controller into thinking it was hearing from the body
computer.
More and more, cars are becoming dependent on their computers. If one thing
is wrong - for example, the engine sensors don't report the expected
behavior - the car may shut down other crucial systems or behave strangely.
I have some real concerns for the future of EV conversion. Eventually we
may be ripping out all the electronics and wiring from scratch, effectively
stripping the car to its shell. This will not only mean enormously more
labor, it will make it exceedingly difficult to retain such safety features
as ABS and air bags.
It will also make backyard conversions nearly impossible for those with
minimal expertise. No more $1500 forklift motor or aircraft generator
conversions, no more dropping in a motor and piling in the batteries and
driving. We'll become dependent on those who can figure out how to crack
the computers, and will sell us the black boxes. I can even see such things
being made illegal at the behest of the automakers.
I have nothing against 1996 Honda Civics, but I'd hate to have that as my
only choice for a glider in 2015 because all the newer Hondas were too
computerized.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Oct 2006 at 8:50, Paul G. wrote:
> Wow, this thread sure has gotten a lot of attention!
And, as always, everyone wants the moon for the price of Peoria. ;-)
Sure glad I'm not the one trying to build components for EV hobbyists. I'd
lose my composure, if not my shirt. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Oct 2006 at 8:41, Steve Condie wrote:
> dimboy charger ...
Initially cheap, yes; but you'll pay for it many times over in operating
costs, especially with VRR ("sealed") batteries. IMO, the truly frugal EV
builder invests in a high quality, microprocessor controlled smart charger
and/or BMS which will minimize his or her long term cost of ownership.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Powers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> On the price issue, consider the price of the Curtis 500 A and Zilla 1K,
the difference is minimal considering what you are getting for your money.
If the Zilla 1k was available, I don't see any reason to even consider a
Curtis 500 A. That being said, the Curtis 500 A is over priced.
The reason they are over priced is there is no alternative. Just
Logisystems. LR>.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's even better on price than using the 1221B box. I blew one up and Jim
replaced it. He may be able to get a few more amps out of the larger box.
Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Condie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> I'm having a 1209 (72V, 400 amp) upgraded to 156V, 825 amps for under
$500. Jim at Logisystems gives a discount to EVers, but they're backlogged,
so I'm on a 6 week turnaround. I don't know what the cost is if you don't
have an upgradable unit to start with.
>
> Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: $750 was the projected
Price for the 156v Chopper/Curtis clone from
> Logisystems. How close to that did you get if you don't mind telling?
What
> are the projected specifications? Lawrence Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Condie"
>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 6:03 PM
> Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
>
>
> > I've got one coming in a month or so. Ask me next spring about how it
> does.
> >
> > Lawrence Rhodes
> wrote: The only thing in the
> middle is the possible 156v controller by Logixyxtems.
> > Lawrence Rhodes.........
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I blew one up and they replaced it. It took a while to find a box but once
they did I paid nothing. I know there are a lot of smoked units out there.
They're all worth some money as cores. I was lucky enough to be able to
upgrade one myself. Logisystems is very reputable. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> Steve wrote:
> >I'm having a 1209 (72V, 400 amp) upgraded to 156V, 825 amps for
> >under $500. Jim at Logisystems gives a discount to EVers, but
> >they're backlogged, so I'm on a 6 week turnaround. I don't know
> >what the cost is if you don't have an upgradable unit to start with.
>
> Logisystems must have a core unit to start with. Without a Curtis,
> dead or alive, they cannot build anything.
>
> I do have to wonder how durable these upgraded units are. Anyone had
> any issues yet?
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<I have nothing against 1996 Honda Civics, but I'd hate to have that as my
only choice for a glider in 2015 because all the newer Hondas were too
computerized.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator>>>>
I would sincerely hope that by 2015 I (we) can go out and BUY a 2015 EV Honda
Civic! That would be my SECOND new vehicle purchase in my life (56 years).
They first is the 1972 BMW bike I still ride often - but a LOT less since I got
the three wheeler EV going!
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
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Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a way to make an SCR Controller more efficient. An external
capacator bank. Lee Hart's explaination below:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I have an SCR based controller in the Electravan that switches
> at 1500 hz with inadequate filtering on the battery side.
> Is it possible that the battery sees high current pulses and
> behaves more like it is discharging at 1000 amps than 100 and
> consequently has much less capacity.
Yes, it is possible; even probable. You can measure the battery ripple
current with a multimeter. Measure across your battery current shunt, or
pick two spots along one of the wires from your batteries to the
controller. For example, the positive terminal of the battery and the
other end of that wire that connects to the controller. The voltage drop
in this wire is proportional to current.
Connect wires from these points to your multimeter, and go for a drive.
While cruising at some constant speed, measure the DC voltage and the AC
voltage. Their ratio is the percent ripple current. If the AC voltage is
more than about 10% of the DC voltage, then your batteries would benefit
from the addition of filter capacitors.
These old SCR controllers usually didn't have a large input filter
capacitor bank. There were several reasons.
First, they expected them to be used with huge forklift batteries, which
already have lots of capacitance (a "mere" 1000 amp load for these
batteries isn't a high rate :-) They may not have been aware that lack
of capacitors would be a problem for lower-capacity higher-resistance
batteries.
Or they knew, but were concerned about the reliability of electrolytic
capacitors. Modern electrolytics are merely bad -- back then they were
even worse! Note that a 20-year-old SCR controller still works; if they
had used electrolytics, it wouldn't!
Or, they knew and just wanted to save money.
You can add the filter capacitors yourself. You need to connect them as
close to the controller's input as you can, with as short and heavy a
wire as possible.
We don't have enough data to calculate a value, but it's going to take
thousands of microfarads. If it were me, I'd look for some surplus
electrolytics intended for switching power supply filtering, and put in
1,000uf worth. Measure your ripple current again, and see how much it
dropped. Then you can guess how much more it will take.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I have a 120v 20 battery pack. Weighs 1400 pounds. Lee recommended
> 1000uf and check again. What is the problem of putting in a few
> thousand?
No direct harm; the more, the merrier.
However, the goal here is to reduce the battery ripple current. With
perfect zero-resistance capacitors, 1000uF is plenty because almost all
the controller's ripple current will then flow in the capacitors, not
the batteries.
However, real capacitors also have resistance, called ESR on the data
sheets (Equivalent Series Resistance). Capacitor ESR diverts ripple
current back to the batteries. ESR also produces heat, making the
capacitors get hot. It ultimately determines the maximum ripple current
that the capacitor can stand without overheating.
So, your goal is a capacitor with:
a. At least 1000uF of capacitance.
b. An ESR at least as low as your batteries ESR.
For example, an Optima has an ESR of about 0.003 ohms.
A pack of 10 has a total ESR of 10x0.003 = 0.03 ohms.
Add 20 connections at 0.001 ohm each = 0.05 ohms total.
So you want a capacitor with an ESR of 0.05 ohms or less.
c. A ripple current rating of at least 1/4th your motor current.
400 amp motor current means the controller is switching between
0 and 400, which is +/-200 amps peak AC ripple, which is about
100 amps RMS.
What you'll find is that its easy to find a 1000uF electrolytic
capacitor; but its ESR will be 1 ohm and its ripple current rating is
only 5 amps. Just one provides the capacitance, but you'd need 20 of
them in parallel to satisfy the ESR and ripple current requirements.
This is what you see in many controllers; a large number of cheaper
electrolytics, with far more capacitance than needed just to get the
ripple and ESR ratings.
Or, oil-filled paper or polypropylene film capacitors can easily meet
the ESR and ripple current requirements; but their capacitance is low. A
big metal can oil-filled capacitor can have 20uF of capacitance, 0.1 ohm
ESR, and a 25-amp ripple current rating. You'd need only 4 of them for
ESR and ripple, but 50 to get the capacitance. These capacitors would be
a lot larger and more expensive than electrolytics. So what you see in
some controllers are a smaller number of electrolytics (just to get the
capacitance), in parallel with a smaller number of oil or film
capacitors (to get the ESR and ripple ratings).
That's why I suggested that you experiment.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Lee I hop I'm not bothering you too much but I didn't want to blow
> anything up.
Aw, you're no fun! You should always have kids around when you blow up
capacitors. They enjoy the pyrotechnics. :-)
When you get an electrolytic capacitor that has been sitting unused for
a long time, you have to re-form its dielectric. Connect it to a high
voltage power source (like 150 vdc) with a resistor in series to limit
the current to no more than a few milliamps (like 100k ohms). Let it sit
until the capacitor voltage stops rising -- it will take 1-24 hours
depending on how long they have sat. If a capacitor won't rise to its
rated voltage without drawing more than 1 ma, consider it "bad".
You can also estimate their real capacitance at the same time. R x C is
the time constant -- the time it should take to charge to 2/3rds of the
applied voltage. 440uf x 100k = 44 seconds, so it should take 44 seconds
to charge to 2/3 * 150v = 100v. This will also weed out any bad ones.
> These are the silver ones General Electric 92F311AMMA, 440UF -10+50%,
> 150vdc 200v surge, 85C Max Ambient. I got 10 of these. Should I put
> them all on the positive or negative side or split them on each leg?
> Do I have enough?
Put all of them in parallel, + to +, - to -. Since you're after the
lowest resistance, the usual method is to get two flat strips of copper
bus bar, drill holes for the capacitor's screws, and screw them to the
bar.
You connect the resulting "big" capacitor directly across the
controller's battery + and - inputs. Again, this should be done with
short, heavy wire or bus bars. If you don't have a precharge resistor,
you should add one; if the main contactor closes and tries to charge all
of these capacitors instantly, it will be murder on the contacts.
I described a method to find out how much/many capacitance is needed
based on the ripple current. Too few capacitors, and they will get hot
and not do much good. More is always better, but you reach a point where
the extra cost and weight isn't worth the slight improvement.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> So I put the plus buss bar on the positive end of the big capacitor
> and the neg end of the big capacitor on the neg side of the pack.
> Now I have the caps in parallel with the pack. Won't they just
> charge by themselves now?
The capacitors connect directly across the CONTROLLER's B+ and B-
inputs, with the shortest fattest possible leads. The controller draws
pulses of current, and we want these pulses to come from the capacitors,
not the batteries.
I assume you have contactors, fuses, circuit breakers, a big disconnect
switch, or SOMETHING between the batteries and controller. That means
there will be times that one or more of these is open. When you close
it, the capacitors will try to charge INSTANTLY, leading to huge
currents which will damage the contacts of the last device to close. The
precharge resistor is intended to slowly charge the capacitors over a
second or two; then close the last switch.
> like the air pocket used in water system to stop the pipes from
> vibrating which I guess is what ripple current is.
Yes, it is basically the same thing that plumbers call "water hammer".
> I'll try 10 caps and check for heat. Then I'll add more. I'll also
> try weeding out the caps by charging with a variac.
...and a diode! Remember these are DC capacitors!
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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That is correct... many are (or will be) connected into the onboard
computer. From what I was reading, it does sound like there are a few
stand-alone models being installed right now. (You just need the stand-alone
controller & the hardware.)
I agree that the onboard systems make conversions (or even simple engine
swaps) much more difficult. We do get a better product from the mfgr, but
changes are harder to make. We've seen that change, starting back with
anti-lock brakes... when it could throw off your brake system to just swap
out tires of different height, front and back. No more jacking up the back
and stuffing oversized tires on your BMW. <g>
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: After Market Electric power steering box
> On 21 Oct 2006 at 7:46, Michael Perry wrote:
>
> > electric power steering ... You might salvage a unit from ...
>
> I could be wrong, but I'd guess 'twill be quite a challenge, since many or
> most are apt to be under the control of the vehicle's onboard computer.
> You'd have to design a new controller for the PS hardware, or something to
> fool the existing controller into thinking it was hearing from the body
> computer.
>
> More and more, cars are becoming dependent on their computers. If one
thing
> is wrong - for example, the engine sensors don't report the expected
> behavior - the car may shut down other crucial systems or behave
strangely.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
The deed has been done!
I must say that the majority of the comments were very positive and
well informed. Though there were a several at the top of the list that
obviously has been drinking too much GM coolaid.
On 10/21/06, Dave Muse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Alright, I tried to just ignore this - but it's bugging me. I don't know
how many people here have ever been to IMDB.COM , it's the Internet
Movie Database, a popular movie site where users rate movies and comment
on them.
The day before 'Who Killed the Electric Car' premiered, a group of
people (don't ask me where they came from, I could only speculate)
showed up en masse to give the movie a very low rating (they all rated
it a "2" out of 10.) No big deal, because when the real viewers showed
up, the rating went up to about 7 1/2 over the following few weeks.
Now, however, that a DVD release is planned, this same group of
troublemakers apparently came back and voted all the negative (and
misleading) movie comments to the top of the board, where people
browsing the movies will easily see them..
So what I'm asking here is for as many people as possible to visit
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/ , join IMDB (free), and vote
up/down the good/bad comments. Even a dozen votes or so would likely
turn the tide. Vote on the movie, too, as positive comments and votes
can only help with sales of the DVD.
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Hi folks,
I have a deck motor on my John Deere E90 electric riding mower that
has one of the magnets loose in the shell. I am trying to get the
mower operational for next year's yard work, and both deck motors
were frozen. I was able to break both motors down completely so I
can replace the bearing and brushes, but I will need to glue this
magnet back on before one of them can be reused. So, what do kind of
adhesive is recommended?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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Hi,
The most tested and the most successful of all EV batteries is the
Toyota-Panasonic EV-95. The last ones were built in 2003, just after the
successful lawsuit by Chevron-Cobasys-Ener-Ovonyx that extracted $30M from
Toyota-Panasonic.
These FIVE (5) year old batteries now have a record of up to 105,000 miles of
succesful, carefree operation (using the advanced Toyota thermal-feedback BMS)
and show no signs yet of degradation. As one Toyota manager puts it, "...we
just don't have any credible reports of battery failure, and only one arguable
case of battery pack replacement..." in the 328 Toyota RAV4-EV sold in the
short-lived sales program of Mar., 2002 to Nov., 2002 (although many of the
orders were not filled until late in 2003).
Oil-company and government regulators, Toyota execs and others try to hide the
fact that these batteries work and are in continuous usage by rather unskilled
drivers; almost none of those driving the RAV4-EV are real EV converter. In
fact, LADWP transportation services has a reputation for being completely
ignorant of maintenance for their (slightly different) 2001 fleet vehicles (68
now are left); I just heard one RAV4-EV expert scoff at their record of
mis-use, but theirs are still running fine even though hardly used (several
have only 6000 miles after 5 years of use -- an astonishing $5.00 per mile!).
Toyota itself, in the person of such as Dave Hermance, states blandly that
"...the batteries are not ready" for plug-in hybrids, as if the EV-95 battery
did not even exist!
Yet put a small engine-generator on a Toyota RAV4-EV (one driver has done this)
and you have, presto chango, a SUCCESSFUL PLUG-IN HYBRID.
These batteries have statistics associated with them; over the 5 years during
which they were mass-produced (starting in Jan., 1997, when EV-95 went into
production), failure rates were documented to be in the low single-digits per
millons cells.
The 24 battery modules in each Toyota RAV4-EV have 10 cells each (288v total,
14.5v max per module, 13.2v more reasonable operating level of "full"). These
240 cells balance, not just on MY RAV4-EV cars but on ALL REPORTING RAV4-EV
down to .1v. Reading the OBD (using Hanssen and Shwabe's palm pilot display)
shows that only at extremely LOW voltages (9.5v or less) does the difference in
cells become more than .1v.
This is TRUE whether the RAV4-EV battery pack is REGULARLY LEVELED, using the
SPI magnecharger, or whether it it only occasionally leveled. In my case, I
hardly ever level, usually filling to 80% or 90%; occasionally, I fast-charge
using the 10 kW or 12 kW Manzanita (Rich Rudman) charger (hooks right into the
regenerative brake shunt). In NO case is the battery pack, the cell integrity,
or the performance impaired.
My RAV4-EV has only 66,000 miles (since 2003), but others have more, and some
have less.
CONCLUSION: With Toyota-Panasonic NiMH EV-95 batteries, the number of cells is
entirely IRRELEVANT to battery performance.
SECOND CONCLUSION: Toyota could solve the "no battery" problem just by going
into production with the known, reproduceable EV-95 battery, but won't, perhaps
because of pressure from GM or perhaps because Chevron-cobasis-ener-ovonyx owns
the patent rights, and won't let them.
The batteries are here, and work; it's only the Western States Petroleum, and
Dave Hermance, who pretend that they don't exist. Amazing, hundreds of working
battery-powered cars, and no one can see them!
/Doug
>option. I would not want to have a 500 cell lead acid pack or a 800 pack of
>NiCads if I had a choice.
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In a message dated 10/21/2006 11:46:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> ubj: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> Date:10/21/2006 11:46:38 AM Pacific Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> >
> >What DC'ers need is a Curtis-killer, not something that tries to compete
> >with Otmar's already excellent offerings.
> >
> >
>
> Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense! Considering how lame the
> Curtis is, a 'Curtis Killer' isn't much of a challenge.
>
> >We need an updated Raptor 600. Forget the series-parallel shifting and
> >even the electric reverse; if someone is going direct drive or with dual
> >motors, they're probably going to want the extra oomph of at least a Z1K
> >anyway. Forget the 1000+ amps; if someone wants 1000A, they'll buy a
> >Z1K; if they want more, a Z2K.
> >
> >
>
> Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense!
>
> >96V to perhaps 192V is going to cover most anyone who
> >would have bought this controller instead of a Curtis or being pushed
> >into a Zilla due to choosing a pack voltage over 144V.
> >
> >
>
> Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense!
>
> >My essential spec/feature list for a Curtis-Killer is:
> >
> >- 600 adjustable battery amps
> >
> >- handles at least the range of 96-144V; 156V is almost essential, and
> >up to ~200V would be even better
> >
> >- precharge/contactor control
> >
> >- basic fault detection (open/short throttle, high pedal lockout)
> >
> >- rev limiter (and a tach drive output sure would be nice)
> >
> >- integrated heatsink (water-cooled is preferable
> >
> >- priced on par with 1231C + appropriate heatsink.
> >
> >- contactor failure detection
> >
> >- controller failure detection &auto contactor dropout
> >
> >
> >
> Roger, how on earth does one come up with such a wonderfully thought-out
> wish list, and leave out
> 'silent operation-no Curtis squeal!'???? Or, did you assume that no one
> in their right mind would ever again, design a road-going EV controller
> to make such an awful, irritating noise?
>
> From Mike Sandman:
>
> >I just ordered a kit from KTA using a 1231C-7701 for my 120v system.
>
> I'm curious Mike, did they tell you up front that this controller will
> cause your EV's drive motor to make an irritating non-varying squeal
> when you take off or cruise with a light throttle? Did they tell you
> that this controller has no safety features? Did they tell you it has no
> automatic precharge, and that if you don't design your own, it could
> blow up when the line contactor engages and send your EV off at full
> throttle? Did they tell you it cannot be adjusted for a battery input
> current limit to protect your battery pack investment? My guess is no to
> all the above.
>
> If it's not too late, you could save a bundle by purchasing a used
> Curtis 1221B controller. It's a bit less powerful at 400 amps, but it's
> silent and you could get one for maybe $300 if anyone has one available.
> The money saved would allow you to build a precharge circuit and pocket
> at least $500 cash, too. Better still, a used Raptor 600 could be found
> for maybe $800, is silent, properly cooled, has dip switch programming,
> and 900 amps motor loop current.
>
> I understand having to watch one's EV budget, but with one as high as
> $15k the last area I would have cut costs on would be on the all
> important motor controller. You may have saved $500-$600 by stepping
> w-a-ay down to the Curtis, but you gave up a lot of features that would
> have made your conversion more fun, far more pleasant, much smoother,
> more versatile, twice as powerful, and far safer, and...you gained a lot
> of negatives as described above.
>
> From Steve Powers:
>
> >When you get to more than 600 batt amps, you are really killing the pack.
>
>
>
> Is this one of those comments again, where one has to have read
> everything that came before and know that you might be talking about wet
> cell type batteries (and just didn't specify this), or do you really
> think that currents this low will harm powerful AGMs like Optimas,
> Hawkers, and Orbitals? Those of us using AGMs of higher quality know
> that the opposite is true, in that the high performance type AGMs
> actually give their best service life routinely dishing out BIG
> currents. 600 amps from the better AGMs is nothing. The Optimas in Blue
> Meanie lasted 6.5 years, and pretty close to each time it was taken out
> for a run, 1000 amps were sucked from them multiple times. Sure, under
> all out racing where you might suck 1000 amps from small 24.5 lb.
> batteries for 12 continuous seconds, it is stressful and sometimes fatal
> for the batteries, but for normal fun street driving 1000 amps for 5-6
> seconds from larger 40+ lb. AGMs is kid's stuff....besides, you're
> already well above the speed limit in that amount of time and will be
> off throttle and back to sub 100 amp levels.
>
> One more item to be added to Roger's list...compact size. Oat's Z1K's
> small near cube-shaped super compact size is not only amazing
> considering the thing cranks out 1000 full amps, it's also a blessing in
> an already crowded under-hood compartment. Though my experiences with
> the DCP Raptor 1200 were nothing but positive, its large bulky size was
> not a plus.
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
In my book THERE IS NO OPTION the zilla is well worth the wait. Dennis Berube
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Lawrence,
My deepest sympathy, try to explain to your wife that 2 is the minimum
you should have on the road and #2 is mandatory if #1 breaks down! I
found that after #3 they (wives) stop paying attention, especially if you
buy/sell parts to pay for the hobby - (re-investing is the argument). I
have 5 and do not plan to sell any, as a matter of fact I am thinking of a
nascar style frame with a funny car body for #6, but first I have to get
#5 running.
My wife didnt mid after she would get lots of questions when she used it
to run errands, many would ask how she got one and they couldn't. Oh yea,
isn't #2 hers or maybe #3?
dont give up
Jimmy
I hope to add an article about my Solectria E10 to my website soon.
https://dm3electrics.com/
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" ,
> Subject: 1980 VW Rabbit project for sale.
> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:27:49 -0700
>
> I've craigs listed my Rabbit.
> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/car/223529458.html The wife has put her
> foot
> down. Only one electric car. 80% complete VW Rabbit. Rear battery box
> in.
> Motor in. Needs: Motor mount, controller, DC/DC, charger & batteries.
> Contact Lawrence Rhodes 415-821-3519
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If it's not too late, you could save a bundle by purchasing a used
Curtis 1221B controller. It's a bit less powerful at 400 amps, but it's
silent and you could get one for maybe $300 if anyone has one available.
I'll buy all the 1221B's I can get my hands on. Especially busted ones.
Anyone with a 1221B they want to sell contact me. PLEASE... Uh the bad
part. Nobody will part with them unless they are dead. Hopefully not a
melted mess. I don't know where you have been John but these things are
very hard to get a hold of. If you have some sitting on the shelf they are
very valuable to me and others building cars up now. The reason for this
thread is nothings available between the Curtis crap and a 156k zilla. Well
except a Curtis modified by Logisystems. Lawrence Rhodes.....I'll bet you
could get 200 bucks just for a clean 1221B core not working..........
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The only way I know of is a step-down transformer.. Is that what you mean?
Or do you mean torque multiplication?
David C.. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? Practical parameters
Steve Condie wrote:
current multiplication
Hows that work?
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Hi Mark,
Perhaps we could get together online some time to talk about this
podcast idea? When is a good time for you - bearing in mind that I'm
on BST/GMT! :)
Nikki.
DC [EMAIL
PROTECTED])¢Ë\¢{Z{~Û×^g¬±¨ ~æjÛ.r¬jvµ§!y×âæ¯qªÝ 3 ~æjÛbâ²Û¶Èì¹çn¢yriÇ ¦ÓË StÈ*.®,¶)à±Ø¬¦V²¶¬ë,j²¢êæj)i®+jh¬lzÛh±éÝ<°51LãKa©Ý籧cºËbMessage-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Reattaching Magnets on PM Motors
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:42:27 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello Mike,
Use J-B Weld, the slow drying type which takes 24 hours, not the 5 minute
stuff. The slow dry penetrates deeper then the fast dry.
Sand both surfaces of the mating surfaces only in one direction with about
16 grit and then clean each surface with acetone.
I attach magnets to a aluminum disk that is on the pilot shaft of the motor
for a rpm sender which works good.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 3:03 PM
Subject: Reattaching Magnets on PM Motors
> Hi folks,
>
> I have a deck motor on my John Deere E90 electric riding mower that
> has one of the magnets loose in the shell. I am trying to get the
> mower operational for next year's yard work, and both deck motors
> were frozen. I was able to break both motors down completely so I
> can replace the bearing and brushes, but I will need to glue this
> magnet back on before one of them can be reused. So, what do kind of
> adhesive is recommended?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
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