EV Digest 6049
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 100 mile EV's and BB600, ni-cads
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Ni-Cad Cell Reversal
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: After Market Electric power steering box
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EBEAA Meeting - next Saturday Oct 28, 2006 10-12 in Alameda
by Ed Thorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV grinnin' again!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EV controllers? Practical parameters
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Source for GE EV-1s, Was: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV grinnin' again!
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike
I am glad for you that your experiences with the BB600 batteries have been
good. Considering the BB600 group posts are mostly about the batteries you have
to admit it has an awful amount of problems posted. Especially when you
consider the number of people verses the number of problems.
If anyone is interest in these batteries I highly recommend spending a fair
amount of time reading the past posts in the BB600 group.
Is the BB600 a great bargain? 1.2 volts ten cells to equal a 12 volt
battery. At 10 dollars each this is 100 dollars for a 12 volt 35 Ah battery. A
105
Ah battery would be 300 dollars. Six large cells of lead acid or 30 small
NiCad cells that you have to connect. The massed produced 12 volt lead acid
battery does have good prices. Each has areas in performance where they are
better
so neither is a clear cut winner over the other.
I will agree with you the NiCad battery does have some very good advantages.
Long life if charged correctly and cold temperature has little effect on
them. Lighter than the lead acid but not as good a NiMH. It is not able to
provide the large demands and it would be better in a high voltage AC system.
I
was not putting down the NiCad battery just stating when you look at the posts
overall there are a lot of problems using these BB600 batteries because of
their size the number of cells needed and other issues. Since most are not
using these in 300 volt systems maybe they are being used with to high of C
rate?
The SAFT batteries if you have the room, money and if they would sell them
would be the best option. Built in watering and even water cooling as an
option. I would not want to have a 500 cell lead acid pack or a 800 pack of
NiCads if I had a choice.
Unless you run down this size battery your not going to go very far with the
BB600 and if you do how you getting back? I see this come up all the time
and the distances are not far when this is talked about on the BB600 group. I
did not want to list out all the issues but anyone considering these really
should read what others have all ready come across.
About the lead acid battery life only taking down to 50% is really a bit
over rated. If you figure out the loss of not taking a lead acid battery to a
low SOC the gain is around 10%. I always try to charge when possible but it is
not a huge difference like 100% DOD 15,000 miles to 50% DOD 25,000 miles. I
ran the numbers using a Force and S-10 and it was a couple of thousand miles
at
best. So yes it makes sense to charge whenever possible but the loss is not
huge. I did not run these numbers on all makes of batteries just a few that I
could find the cycle life and DOD information on. Some are better than
others.
I really do wish you and anyone else using them best of luck.
Don
.
In a message dated 10/20/2006 10:19:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hi folks,
How do I see the BB600 group? what is its URL and method of enrollment. I
am interested in maybe purchasing about 300 of these cells myself. Where
can I get them new and cheap? Is there a repository of knowledge base on
this cell somewhere? Thanks
JJ
> I am on that BB600 group. Here are my Nicad experiences.
>
>
>>
>> Don wrote;
>> The above statement is from below. I would not recommend the
>> BB600 battery
>> to anyone. I have been on the BB600 group for about a year
>> and monitoring the
>> efforts to use the BB600 batteries. I was considering them
>> myself until
>> reading all the posts about the endless list of problems.
>> Hundreds of
>> interconnects,
>
> The interconnects are alot of work to assemble. Using a cordless drill
> set at low torque speeds up the assembly. Then going over each nut with
> a torque wrench is important. The good news is that if a cell goes bad
> you can replace it with another $10 cell. This happened to me! If it
> were a lead acid battery, the whole battery gets junked and you don't
> know if it's a bad cell or what the failure was. Cells go for about
> $4.50, but their shipping, as with any other battery, brings the price
> up to $9-$10 each.
>
>
>>manually watering hundreds of small single cells
>
> True. But I've had sealed lead acid batterys that I had to water
> totalling 624 cells! Now that my Nicad pack is only 252 cells, I
> checked the entire pack in 3 hours. It takes more time to R & R the caps
> than it does to water the cells by a mile. It takes about 5-10 seconds
> to add water to a cell to the exact level required by the
> manual. There are no signs of venting in the battery box. That may imply
> that watering is a very rare requirement for my truck.
>
>>and keeping them in balance.
>
> This is the great part. Even a lead acid battery pack needs to remain in
> balance. But you cannot check each cell or balance each cell! But with
> these nicads you can. Yes it's more work but I consider it a
> benefit that I can test each cell individually. The milspec manual
> states that for balancing, take each nicad to 0.0 volts and hold them
> there for 24hrs. Then recharge. Instant balancing. Would have to do it
> slowly to avoid cell reversal by putting a light bulb across the
> entire pack.
>
>>If this is not enough to discourage you the never
>> ending list of other
>> problems should. They are around 35 Ah and 1.2 volts a 120
>> volt pack would
>> take 100 batteries and only be 34 Ah. 8000 dollars of these
>> would get you 800 or
>> so if you include shipping. 800 I believe would be around
>> 500 more than any
>> one else has tried and only a few are near the 300 number.
>
> To get any life out of a lead pack the rule of thumb is do not go
> lower than 50% dod. That's almost the same ah's available as my nicads
> now provide over the old lead acid pack! Then don't forget that a lead
> acid packs has a huge decrease in AH's avaialble when they get cold in
> the winter. The Nicads winter drop is listed a small. I'll know more as
> "winter" settles in here in California.
>
> Remember that with lead acid packs, you still have cells in each
> battery, that you *CANNOT* access for testing. You can get more AH's
> from a lead acid pack. But the weight penalty is huge! My truck is now
> 1000 lbs lighter and it's efficiency is greatly increased not to
> mention that acceleration, handling and the ride is vastly improved.
>
> There are two trucks with AC systems testing these Nicads as we speak.
> The fact that they pull much less current than a DC system may make the
> nicads a better match for the vehicle. Info on these trucks is posted
> sometimes here but mostly in the BB600 group.
>
> Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$750 was the projected Price for the 156v Chopper/Curtis clone from
Logisystems. How close to that did you get if you don't mind telling? What
are the projected specifications? Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Condie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> I've got one coming in a month or so. Ask me next spring about how it
does.
>
> Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The only thing in the
middle is the possible 156v controller by Logixyxtems.
> Lawrence Rhodes.........
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich,
> What do we need in the way of Controllers and what
> would you folks pay for a new design?
What DC'ers need is a Curtis-killer, not something that tries to compete
with Otmar's already excellent offerings.
We need an updated Raptor 600. Forget the series-parallel shifting and
even the electric reverse; if someone is going direct drive or with dual
motors, they're probably going to want the extra oomph of at least a Z1K
anyway. Forget the 1000+ amps; if someone wants 1000A, they'll buy a
Z1K; if they want more, a Z2K.
The Curtis maxes out at 144V and 500A; the Raptor went to 156V; it would
be nice to perhaps push this upwards a bit nearer the 200V mark, but not
if it causes a serious price hit. The Raptor had battery current
adjustable to 600A and a non-adjustable motor loop current of 900A max.
Making the motor current adjustable as well would be nice, but probably
not essential. Forget 72V or less since AllTrax covers that market
nicely already. 96V to perhaps 192V is going to cover most anyone who
would have bought this controller instead of a Curtis or being pushed
into a Zilla due to choosing a pack voltage over 144V.
My essential spec/feature list for a Curtis-Killer is:
- 600 adjustable battery amps and better current multiplication than the
Curtis
- handles at least the range of 96-144V; 156V is almost essential, and
up to ~200V would be even better, but stay under the next quantum leap
in cost that occurs somewhere north of 144V.
- precharge/contactor control
- basic fault detection (open/short throttle, high pedal lockout)
- rev limiter (and a tach drive output sure would be nice)
- integrated heatsink (water-cooled is preferable, but the essential
thing is that the controller comes with the required heatsink (and fans,
if required); you can't have one without the other)
- packaged to survive the automotive underhood environment. The
electronics need to be sealed decently in a package affixed to one side
of the heatsink; none of this uncoated/barely coated PCB in a ventilated
box with wet and dirty air being blown through for cooling. And, try to
avoid RTVing stuff up to the point of making it esentially
non-servicable (Raptor power stage) unless you're convinced it is so
bulletproof that you're willing to just replace failed units as a
complete assembly should the need ever arise.
- priced on par with 1231C + appropriate heatsink. At $2k a Z1K LV is
only about $500 more than the 1231; if you can't deliver something for
at least a couple hundred less than a Z1k LV, the only time you'll sell
any is when Otmar gets backlogged.
A couple nice-to-haves include:
- contactor failure detection
- controller failure detection & auto contactor dropout
- ability to set a low voltage limit and have the controller reduce
power to keep the pack from remaining below this limit for more than
some small (or adjustable) number of seconds. Or have the controller
accept an undervoltage signal from an external BMS, such that it will
reduce the current limit as required to keep the undervoltage signal
from remaining 'on' for more than the set amount of time.
Your spec list reads like you might want to avoid a micro in this
product entirely; is that the case, or do you simply not want to support
comms between the controller and a PC/Palm/etc.?
If you absolutely don't want the headache/dev effort of supporting
comms, at least have the decency to provide thumbwheels or indexed
rotary switches, etc. for positive setting of current limit(s) and RPM
limits. Neither has to resolve down to 10A or 10RPM, etc.; something
like 8 50A steps of adjustment for current (allows 200-600A in 50A
steps), and 8 250 (4500-6500) or 500RPM (2500-6500) steps for the rev
limit is fine and there is then immediate visible means for the user to
confirm the desired setting.
>From a cost point of view, it is probably cheaper to stick a $2 LCD on
the unit and one or two buttons to allow navigation for setting anything
you want to configure, assuming you have a micro inside the controller
anyway. This would also allow you to seal up the electronics more
effectively.
Not sure why you are opposed to going water-cooled. If the
cost/challenge of boring passages in a block of aluminum is an issue, it
ought to be feasible to simply mount the power devices to one side of an
aluminum plate perhaps 3/8" thick and then bolt a plastic (or aluminum)
plate/block to the other side that has the cooling channels milled into
its surface. A bit of Permatex or a paper gasket to seal the two and
you're done. It can't be cheap to source a sufficiently massive chunk
of air-cooled heatsink and then add the cost of fans of sufficient
quality to last a reasonable time. It wouldn't be cheap, but if you
also provided water cooling of the bus caps you'd dramatically increase
their longevity and you might just be able to push them enough harder to
use fewer (or cheaper) caps and come out close to neutral on cost. (I've
got an old Curtis controller on the shelf with heatsunk caps...)
I think you're missing the boat with encouraging people to use a PB6.
The pot is junk, and at $75 a pop there should be a good revenue
opportunity here by offering your own competitively-priced version
based on a quality pot and intended to survive the automotive underhood
environment.
>From your comments on cost, etc., it sounds like maybe you ought to
stick with the chargers instead of spreading yourself too thin with yet
another product to support. I don't think there is a market for another
$2k+ controller unless it fills some need that the Zillas don't. The
only one I can think of is the battery range from 360-450VDC, and that's
not going to be a controller with significant demand, nor will it be
cheap enough for anyone to care if it covers pack voltages below that
range. Another possible 'hole' in the Zilla lineup is something over
1000A but below 2000A; not sure there'd be any real demand for a
"Z1.5K", nor if it would really be possible to offer such a beast at a
sufficiently lower price to steal customers away from the Z2K.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
take care as you are near asking for an open source EV black box where you
can plug charger card, controller card,
DC converter card, dashboard monitoring card etc. or simply use external
ones you already have or prefer...
:^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> I think it would be less cost. Say $3k for combined charger/controller,
rather than $4k for buying them separately.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:23:36 PM
> Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
>
> ...My view is that combining functions in a single more expensive (yet
more
> value) product in a hobby market is not the best approach, since it
> requires more upfront initial cost and requires a complete system buy-in.
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the price issue, consider the price of the Curtis 500 A and Zilla 1K, the
difference is minimal considering what you are getting for your money. If the
Zilla 1k was available, I don't see any reason to even consider a Curtis 500 A.
That being said, the Curtis 500 A is over priced.
I think people want something (like others have described) limited to 600
battery amps with good current multiplication for acceleration. 192 V. I'd
like to see that at the price of the Curtis model ...
Or, come up with something that can do 144 V, but has 600 battery amps and
good current multiplication for acceleration. That should be priced less than
the current Curtis offering. Again, the Curtis is overpriced for what you are
getting.
Consider the used / surplus market where I can get a complete GE EV-1 fully
functional with pot box and contactors for $100 or less. Or an EV-100 or even
EV-200. All used, all cheap, all still very functional. Why would I buy a
Curtis? If I want more, I would go to a Zilla, or I'd prefer tha above 144 V /
600 batt amps / good current multiplication - in a light weight car < 2800
total converted weight = very respectible performance.
As far as controller rebuilding and modifications, why not buy some GE EV-1's
as I have done and try to boost the voltage / current. It may be possible to
take it up to 144 V (maybe) and current (double up the SCR) and some other
stuff. I'm not an expert, but I think an expert could make this happen and for
less than $650 in parts make something very respectable.
When you get to more than 600 batt amps, you are really killing the pack.
Instead, those with 96 V, think 192 V and half the batt amps = less waste heat
= better performance = more battery life.
Steve
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
$750 was the projected Price for the 156v Chopper/Curtis clone from
Logisystems. How close to that did you get if you don't mind telling? What
are the projected specifications? Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Condie"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> I've got one coming in a month or so. Ask me next spring about how it
does.
>
> Lawrence Rhodes
wrote: The only thing in the
middle is the possible 156v controller by Logixyxtems.
> Lawrence Rhodes.........
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>
---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
SepEx ... Yes. Make it happen and you can use DC, even at only 108 V and no
shifting. 0 - 70 MPH, decent acceleration ... The works ... It has been done
with a constant gear ratio. But, you aren't going to get that with a series
motor and controller. Of course, toss in regen as a bonus.
I have had 2 cars with SepEX. And, I on the record have stated over and over
again that it can cause you nothing but problems. But, that is only because it
isn't supported - at all. If there was a decent SepEX controller and we didn't
have to "make our own" or piece together a series controller with some
contactors and seperate field controls, it would work great. Trust me, it has
been done, and it did work great. Unfortunetely, no support.
I see this as the intermediate between the Series DC and AC that we all dream
of.
Steve
Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think what has been pointed out as missing is a good, highpower sepex.
So the DC hobbiest can get regen.
Jim can rewind the fields for sep-ex.
But I would like to see an inexpensive 3-phase ac controller, Sine drive
at slow speeds for smoothness and eff and six-step at high rpms for
effiency and reduced CPU needs (and as backup for encoder failure). The
parameters or source code should be "open" so we can tune to many
different motors. I am trying to get my hands on some software for
design and simulation.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I can slow down a minute to stop enjoying all the driving I'm
doing on them, I plan to put one cell in that is nearly discharged and
then drive the truck to see what happens when it reverses. I'll report
the results here.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "England Nathan-r25543"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What happens to a NiCad cell when it is reversed? I hear this is bad so
> does it kill the cell dead to the point it is useless?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nate
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm having a 1209 (72V, 400 amp) upgraded to 156V, 825 amps for under $500.
Jim at Logisystems gives a discount to EVers, but they're backlogged, so I'm on
a 6 week turnaround. I don't know what the cost is if you don't have an
upgradable unit to start with.
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: $750 was the projected Price for the
156v Chopper/Curtis clone from
Logisystems. How close to that did you get if you don't mind telling? What
are the projected specifications? Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Condie"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> I've got one coming in a month or so. Ask me next spring about how it
does.
>
> Lawrence Rhodes
wrote: The only thing in the
middle is the possible 156v controller by Logixyxtems.
> Lawrence Rhodes.........
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True, right now retro fit units are expensive, but electric power steering
is probably going to become common over the next decade. You might salvage a
unit from a Honda NSX (1990 and later) or one of the other cars that have
it. (If I recall, one model of Hyundai also uses EPS.) Even Delphi is
onboard with a system for Malibu's and some Saturn models.
BTW, it's not only lighter and cheaper to build, but some models will
receive speed input from the onboard computer, making the car handle better
than mechanical units. Of course, there are cars that have a combo unit,
using a hydraulic pump to power the standard gear. It supposedly will
increase fuel economy by as much as 4% in an ICE... but it's the cost factor
that will make it popular with car makers.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 12:09 AM
Subject: RE: After Market Electric power steering box
> Wow!!!! Only $3590. Thats 1/3 the price of my whole conversion. Also more
than any single component I had to buy.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Topic: EVs for Dummies: The Toyota RAV4 EV
Date: Saturday, Oct, 28, 2006
Time: 10 am to 12 noon.
Site: Alameda First Baptist Church
1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
As the CARB gears up to revisit the Zero Emissions
Mandate, many Californians have been happily driving
the all-electric Toyota RAV4 EVs for 4 years. Several
of our local chapter members own and commute in this
wonderful all-electric vehicle.
Our member and activity StEVe Greenberg will be
prenting to us the best production EV to date - the
Toyota RAV4 EV. This EV is by far the most solid and
dependable EV on the road today, primarily because
Toyota had the sense to sell the last 300 in 2002 to
the general public, after previously only leasing
about 1,000 to business only..
Steve (and possibly others) will share with us the
history of this Electric Vehicle and personal
experiences. Much has been documented on this vehicle
and its value is actually appreciating over time.
* Wed, Nov 22 - Clean Energy Rally, 5-7pm starting at
1317 San Pablo Ave, Berkeley (free) as part of a
Sierra Club Bay Chapter Energy Committee event.
Come see what the automakers are capable of building,
and how we can applly pressure for more EVs in the
future.. Also other EVs will be on-hand and informal
Q&A can take place in the parking lot.
See you there.
http://www.ebeaa.org
*********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote,
Still need to correct a 12V wiring error that for some reason keeps the
start signal from getting to the zilla
The Fiero has a clutch safety switch that will not allow the starter solonid
to be energized unless the clutch is depressed. If you are using the
original starter solonoid wiring for the start signal that could be the source
of
the problem.
Dave wrote,
I also don't think the Iota DC-DC came on.
The IOTA's have a fairly wide margin of input voltage. There is a small
green led near the Vout adjust screw that is on when the DC/DC is alive. If the
led is on check the output fuse.
Pat
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve wrote:
I'm having a 1209 (72V, 400 amp) upgraded to 156V, 825 amps for
under $500. Jim at Logisystems gives a discount to EVers, but
they're backlogged, so I'm on a 6 week turnaround. I don't know
what the cost is if you don't have an upgradable unit to start with.
Logisystems must have a core unit to start with. Without a Curtis,
dead or alive, they cannot build anything.
I do have to wonder how durable these upgraded units are. Anyone had
any issues yet?
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(Note: I'm not an EE. I don't even play one on TV, and I didn't stay at
Holiday Inn last might. You have been warned.)
Stumbling into the EV world over the past few years, starting by building a
scooter for my kids, lurking for a few years, reviving and upgrading an old
pickup into a 156 volt Zilla-fied AGM zoomer, and now back in the garage for
several months to bring a Tropica to life, I've come across a few factors which
I think bear upon the practical parameters for middle-of-the-road EV's.
1. Controller Voltage: The components for controllers are volage rated. 200
volts is a standard limit for some of these components. (100 volts is another
one.) Higher voltage units are more expensive, making sub-200 volts a price
point for controllers. A nominal 156 volt pack can sit in the high 180's when
fully charged, so you can't realistically design a system with a higher voltage
than that and stay below the rating of your controller's guts unless it's made
with more expensive components.
2. Charger voltage. Chargers are the ugly step-sister of EV's. You gotta
have one, but most people coming in don't even think about them. Still you're
typically talking about spending close to a thousand bucks for one, and more
for the higher powered units like the PFCs.
---- Except, with a 144 volt pack you can literally strip the end off an
extension cord, wire it to a $5 bridge rectifier bolted to a piece of scrap
metal, and wire the other two prongs of the rectifier to your pack, plug it in
and it will successfully charge your pack (eventually).
An additional $60 bucks worth of common parts available at Home Depot (switch
and fuse; GFCI, timer, dimmer) and a $25 transformer and a $15 ammeter from
EBay and you can wire up an adjustable dimboy charger that will do a decent job
of charging a 144 volt pack fairly quickly and safely with a little attention
and understanding of the batteries' needs. That leaves several hundred bucks
for other components like controllers and motors and switches and stuff.
Those two factors seem to me to drive to the conclusion that 144 volts (or 156
- the dim boy design for that is only a little more complicated) is the "sweet
spot" for EV conversions at this time. Above that you run into increased
controller component cost (and therefore, logically, price); below that you're
paying for more rating than you need and making battery charging a retail
matter at best.
And putting together a battery pack at that voltage isn't too difficult,
either. A lead sled pack of GC floodies will hit about 1700 pounds at 144
volts - that should be good enough for decent range in a pickup. Or you can
use a 900 pound pack of AGMs for good performance in a lighter car (The route
I'm taking)
So if I was putting togather a list of priorities for a new controller entry
into the EV conversion market, I'd be focussing on the 144 - 156 volt sector.
And I'd want to see a little more than 500 motor amps; the motors can take it
and with current multiplication you're unlikely to be stressing the bats at the
levels where high amps are typically drawn. All the other bells and whistles?
Eh, I can live
without 'em, to be honest.
Just my 2 cents worth.
---------------------------------
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That's really the question, isn't it? It's a pretty small box for 800 amps.
Jim is candid about the fact that there may be problems without adequate
cooling airflow, and I'm under no illusions that it will be as robust a unit as
my Zilla was. But there are some out there - I'd be interested in a real world
experience reports as well. I won't be in a position to report until next
summer at best.
Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steve wrote:
>I'm having a 1209 (72V, 400 amp) upgraded to 156V, 825 amps for
>under $500. Jim at Logisystems gives a discount to EVers, but
>they're backlogged, so I'm on a 6 week turnaround. I don't know
>what the cost is if you don't have an upgradable unit to start with.
Logisystems must have a core unit to start with. Without a Curtis,
dead or alive, they cannot build anything.
I do have to wonder how durable these upgraded units are. Anyone had
any issues yet?
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
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Wow, this thread sure has gotten a lot of attention!
On Oct 20, 2006, at 9:15 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
The specs list something like this:
96 to 450 volts. DC
550 to 1100 amps IGBT based.
How many models are you talking about? Reading ahead it looks like a
low current and a high current model, but are you talking about one
model handling the full voltage range?
Precahrge and contactor control.
Good ideas.
Battery current and Motor current adjustable...With a 25 turn pot.. No
programming head or computer needed.
I like this. Would there be any motor voltage limit control? The upper
end of the voltages you are proposing are a bit high for most of the
motors in use.
AIR COOLED! The heat sink from a PFC50 comes to mind, It's about %40
better
than the old Raptor Wakefield heat sink.
Of course water cooling is doable...for a price. But lets not go there
right
yet.
I like air cooled!
High speed Real time Rev limter. Digi pot or Dip switch selectable
RPMs.
I'm not sure of the need, as after market units are available that work
fine with the throttle pot you plan to use (reading ahead again :-)
Just make sure that 0 ohms and/or infinite ohms result in no output. Of
course, if the option costs you very little to include...
PB6 throttle pot needed. No fancy throttle boxes or hand wound sensors
needed. Fault protected High and low pot.
Case size the 500 in a PFC30 case and Bigger one.. in a maybe a PFC50
case
But that's way too big.
Fine I will design a case that works the best.
Just a bit of what runs through my head...
It seems that high voltage controllers tend to have quite a price
premium, I'm not sure of all the why's, but I am aware that the 144v or
156v limits of most low voltage controllers have been putting lids on
people. Perhaps something with 250 volt parts instead of 200 volt parts
so 192 volts would be the upper limit (remember Auburn.) You made a
proposal though, so I bet you have something in mind to deal with the
cost.
The amp ranges you tossed out seem to be close copies of Curtis at the
low end and Z1k at the upper end. When Otmar gets on top of demand it
may be better to have something that has its own niche. A controller
for up to 192 volt packs and with 700 amps on tap would have its own
market space.
I snipped the price part, it left me scratching my head. Are you
talking about high voltage and 1100 amps for around $2k? That would be
a steal! Are you talking about a 550 amp controller for $2k? That is
going to tend to draw Curtis comparisons in many applications. I'm not
sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing but I notice that even the
low voltage Z1k tends to get Curtis comparisons.
Again, I was just tossing out some of what ran through my head. If you
find any of it helpful that's great. If not, well, remember what you
paid for it <g>.
Paul "neon" G.
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Steve,
Could you please share with us your source for these low cost controllers?
URL?
Steve Powers wrote: "Consider the used / surplus market where I can get a
complete GE EV-1 fully functional with pot box and contactors for $100 or less.
Or an EV-100 or even EV-200. All used, all cheap, all still very functional. "
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I forgot about the clutch switch! During testing, that bit me many times. I'd
check the wiring umpteen times before remembering that! And since I don't need
to use the clutch (and since it needs some work - during phase II, so it's
clutchless right now), I just forgot about it. Thanks!!!!!
Maybe I'll have to put a note on the dash to remind me.
I'll see if I can see an LED, but the DC-DC is buried on the RH side of the
trunk area, and only partly visible. I did remember the input voltage was
pretty flexible.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 11:27:32 AM
Subject: Re: EV grinnin' again!
Dave wrote,
Still need to correct a 12V wiring error that for some reason keeps the
start signal from getting to the zilla
The Fiero has a clutch safety switch that will not allow the starter solonid
to be energized unless the clutch is depressed. If you are using the
original starter solonoid wiring for the start signal that could be the source
of
the problem.
Dave wrote,
I also don't think the Iota DC-DC came on.
The IOTA's have a fairly wide margin of input voltage. There is a small
green led near the Vout adjust screw that is on when the DC/DC is alive. If the
led is on check the output fuse.
Pat
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Steve Powers wrote:
> Consider the used / surplus market where I can get a
> complete GE EV-1 fully functional with pot box and contactors
> for $100 or less. Or an EV-100 or even EV-200. All used,
> all cheap, all still very functional. Why would I buy a
> Curtis?
Two main reasons: we're all typically wanting more range from our Evs,
and a modern high-frequency controller like (even) the Curtis will give
you nearly 2x the range from the same battery pack; and, we're all
typically wanting more life from our batteries, and the low-frequency
EV-1 type controllers will kill your pack faster than the higher
frequency alternatives.
The only EV-1 worth considering for an on-road EV is the 84-144V model;
how common are these on the used market?
> As far as controller rebuilding and modifications, why not
> buy some GE EV-1's as I have done and try to boost the
> voltage / current. It may be possible to take it up to 144 V
> (maybe) and current (double up the SCR) and some other stuff.
144V is certainly possible, since the EV-1 used in the Jet Industries
Electrica 007 cars is rated for 84-144V. I've been told that
reliability may suffer if pushed right to 144V, but certainly they hold
up fine at 120V.
The current thing has been done also. Its been years since I've seen a
post from Dale Glubrecht on the list, but as I recall he described
having but together a monster EV-1 using the high current panel from a
lower voltage model and the control card from a higher voltage model.
The comment that sticks in my mind is that he didn't hear a growling
noise from his motor; he could hear his *batteries* complain from the
high current pulses they were being subjected to!
> When you get to more than 600 batt amps, you are really
> killing the pack.
John Wayland will chime in anytime to set you straight on this ;^>
Floodeds don't like the high current, but AGMs such as Optimas,
Orbitals, and Hawkers don't mind it at all.
The key here is that with controllers such as the Zilla, DCP, etc. vs
the Curtis, you can adjust the maximum battery amps to a limit
appropriate for your batteries, *without* restricting the low speed
motor current. With a Curtis, if you turn down the current to protect
the batteries, then the motor current is similarly reduced and
acceleration suffers.
Cheers,
Roger.
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How much margin is built into the PCB traces that
connect the bus bars to the MOSFET source and drain?
I presume that all Jim is doing is installing lower
Rds on MOSFET's and higher current rated freewheel
diodes. I think the limitation will be on the
freewheel diodes since I doubt you'll find them with
double the current rating. Does Jim upgrade the bus
capacitors with more capacitance and lower ESR? If
not I would guess that there are two possible trouble
spots; if the vehicle spends the majority of time
driving around town in PWM, the freewheel diodes will
be pushed hard and the bus caps will have a shorter
life.
What about gate drive? Since you have more input
capacitance on a lower Rds on FET, you'll need a
better gate drive circuit to switch them on quickly.
If not you will have significant switching losses.
(I think Otmar's gate drive can put out 75Amps to turn
on all of the paralleled IGBT's - note that this
current is only required for a 1usec or less, but this
occurs 15,000 times a sec or equal to the PWM
frequency). Does the power supply have enough margin
for this improved gate drive?
The higher rated current control will also need an
improved cooling system to ensure adequate life of the
control. Every 10 degrees Celsius increase halves the
life of the parts, especially the bus caps who's ESR
increases with age which compounds the problems.
This upgrade depends on the end user to make
appropriate cooling decisions.
I'll be watching the Logisystems success with their
conversion, hopefully it works out for them.
Rod
--- Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's really the question, isn't it? It's a pretty
> small box for 800 amps. Jim is candid about the
> fact that there may be problems without adequate
> cooling airflow, and I'm under no illusions that it
> will be as robust a unit as my Zilla was. But there
> are some out there - I'd be interested in a real
> world experience reports as well. I won't be in a
> position to report until next summer at best.
>
> Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steve
> wrote:
> >I'm having a 1209 (72V, 400 amp) upgraded to 156V,
> 825 amps for
> >under $500. Jim at Logisystems gives a discount to
> EVers, but
> >they're backlogged, so I'm on a 6 week turnaround.
> I don't know
> >what the cost is if you don't have an upgradable
> unit to start with.
>
> Logisystems must have a core unit to start with.
> Without a Curtis,
> dead or alive, they cannot build anything.
>
> I do have to wonder how durable these upgraded units
> are. Anyone had
> any issues yet?
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at:
> http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate,
> not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low
> PC-to-Phone call rates.
>
>
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Hello to All,
Roger Stockton wrote:
What DC'ers need is a Curtis-killer, not something that tries to compete
with Otmar's already excellent offerings.
Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense! Considering how lame the
Curtis is, a 'Curtis Killer' isn't much of a challenge.
We need an updated Raptor 600. Forget the series-parallel shifting and
even the electric reverse; if someone is going direct drive or with dual
motors, they're probably going to want the extra oomph of at least a Z1K
anyway. Forget the 1000+ amps; if someone wants 1000A, they'll buy a
Z1K; if they want more, a Z2K.
Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense!
96V to perhaps 192V is going to cover most anyone who
would have bought this controller instead of a Curtis or being pushed
into a Zilla due to choosing a pack voltage over 144V.
Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense!
My essential spec/feature list for a Curtis-Killer is:
- 600 adjustable battery amps
- handles at least the range of 96-144V; 156V is almost essential, and
up to ~200V would be even better
- precharge/contactor control
- basic fault detection (open/short throttle, high pedal lockout)
- rev limiter (and a tach drive output sure would be nice)
- integrated heatsink (water-cooled is preferable
- priced on par with 1231C + appropriate heatsink.
- contactor failure detection
- controller failure detection & auto contactor dropout
Roger, how on earth does one come up with such a wonderfully thought-out
wish list, and leave out
'silent operation-no Curtis squeal!'???? Or, did you assume that no one
in their right mind would ever again, design a road-going EV controller
to make such an awful, irritating noise?
From Mike Sandman:
>I just ordered a kit from KTA using a 1231C-7701 for my 120v system.
I'm curious Mike, did they tell you up front that this controller will
cause your EV's drive motor to make an irritating non-varying squeal
when you take off or cruise with a light throttle? Did they tell you
that this controller has no safety features? Did they tell you it has no
automatic precharge, and that if you don't design your own, it could
blow up when the line contactor engages and send your EV off at full
throttle? Did they tell you it cannot be adjusted for a battery input
current limit to protect your battery pack investment? My guess is no to
all the above.
If it's not too late, you could save a bundle by purchasing a used
Curtis 1221B controller. It's a bit less powerful at 400 amps, but it's
silent and you could get one for maybe $300 if anyone has one available.
The money saved would allow you to build a precharge circuit and pocket
at least $500 cash, too. Better still, a used Raptor 600 could be found
for maybe $800, is silent, properly cooled, has dip switch programming,
and 900 amps motor loop current.
I understand having to watch one's EV budget, but with one as high as
$15k the last area I would have cut costs on would be on the all
important motor controller. You may have saved $500-$600 by stepping
w-a-ay down to the Curtis, but you gave up a lot of features that would
have made your conversion more fun, far more pleasant, much smoother,
more versatile, twice as powerful, and far safer, and...you gained a lot
of negatives as described above.
From Steve Powers:
When you get to more than 600 batt amps, you are really killing the pack.
Is this one of those comments again, where one has to have read
everything that came before and know that you might be talking about wet
cell type batteries (and just didn't specify this), or do you really
think that currents this low will harm powerful AGMs like Optimas,
Hawkers, and Orbitals? Those of us using AGMs of higher quality know
that the opposite is true, in that the high performance type AGMs
actually give their best service life routinely dishing out BIG
currents. 600 amps from the better AGMs is nothing. The Optimas in Blue
Meanie lasted 6.5 years, and pretty close to each time it was taken out
for a run, 1000 amps were sucked from them multiple times. Sure, under
all out racing where you might suck 1000 amps from small 24.5 lb.
batteries for 12 continuous seconds, it is stressful and sometimes fatal
for the batteries, but for normal fun street driving 1000 amps for 5-6
seconds from larger 40+ lb. AGMs is kid's stuff....besides, you're
already well above the speed limit in that amount of time and will be
off throttle and back to sub 100 amp levels.
One more item to be added to Roger's list...compact size. Oat's Z1K's
small near cube-shaped super compact size is not only amazing
considering the thing cranks out 1000 full amps, it's also a blessing in
an already crowded under-hood compartment. Though my experiences with
the DCP Raptor 1200 were nothing but positive, its large bulky size was
not a plus.
See Ya......John Wayland
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