EV Digest 6057
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: After Market Electric power steering box
by "Tim Ireland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV controllers? the 5th option...
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Battery Chargers
by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) open controller designs?
by "Obrien, Haskell W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV controllers? the 5th option...
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) dc-dc working
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Battery Chargers
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery Chargers
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) S10 bat supports drawings?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Battery Chargers
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Playing with an EV-1 and/or GM... Any suggestions?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: dc-dc working
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Automatic precharge circuit- how? (was Re: EV controllers? the 4th
option...)
by "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re:EV controllers? the 4th option...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Battery Chargers
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Inexpensive DC Motors with Keyed Shafts
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: open controller designs?
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Current multiplication, was: EV controllers? Practical parame ters
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) My RAV
by Bill Palter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Automatic precharge circuit- how? (was Re: EV controllers?
the 4th option...)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Brake shoe relining
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: My RAV
by Bill Palter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: open controller designs?
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The link below is to the UK supplier... Flaming River appear to be their
US agents.
http://www.wiringlooms.com/EPAS.aspx
Tim Ireland
South Australia
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It also has only 3 motor/ battery lugs so this means no motor amp sense , I
though that was one of Ot's tricks to keep things together .
somebody on the list needs to get one and report :-) . could make a nice
low power conversion . I've just finished the Hynida I've been doing , 25
orbital 1k 300 zilla , the thing will do 60 in 2nd , and looks like 40mph on
35 amps. still more testing , dose a nice burn in 1st , no clutch to slip .
Got that controller just before Ot stopped ahhh took a vacation .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 5th option...
I'd want some idea of what's inside that box. The "internal fan
circulation"... I don't see vents from any angles shown and there's no
fans on the sink.
if they're capable of making the outside like that I'd worry what mistakes
might be present on the inside.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
On 21 Oct 2006 at 23:59, mike golub wrote:
does anyone know about this guys controller?
http://www.belktronix.com/dcmotorctrl.html
he wants $2k for it and a PFC charger +BMS...
I don't know it personally, but at $2,000 it looks like a fairly
attractive price for the package. You get a 60kW 120v controller,
precharge unit, optical potbox, 1kW isolated switchmode charger,
rudimentary BMS (bypass type), 800W DC:DC, contactor, and even the cooling
fans.
Add up the comparable bits for comparison (approximate prices) :
Curtis 1231C 1425
PB-5 65
Precharge ???
Albright SW200B 130
Zivan NG-1 900W charger (note - max 80v) 460
Zivan NG-1DC DC:DC 460
10 Rudman Mark 2 Regulators 450
Total 2990
And that doesn't include the precharge unit, which most folks homebrew.
You would still need various bits such as a main breaker and/or fuse
and/or panic switch, vacuum pump, heater, metering, possibly a drive for
power steering or air-con; and of course the motor, adapter, and motor
mount.
Maybe you can find some of the above items cheaper; I just did a quick
look around at KTA Services and EVParts to see what they were getting
these days.
This wouldn't make for a barnstormer conversion, but would be more than
adequate for a small commuter. Performance in a light glider such as an
early Civic or Geo Metro class car would probably be similar to a typical
70s-vintage subcompact car (I'd guess 0-50 in perhaps 15-20 seconds).
The main weak point I can see is that feeble charger. Ask anyone who
owned an early Solectria Force about 1kW chargers! You'd need a fair bit
of charging time.
If it meets the published specs, it could be a viable option for some
folks. Reliability would be an unknown. It's obviously low-production
with a somewhat homemade look (unfinished aluminum cases, stick-on labels,
etc.) so who knows whether the builder will still be around (and willing)
to fix it in 10 years.
Cor remarked on the 24v tap. That could be an issue, but pack tapping for
the logic supply worked fine for the early PMC DCC-xx controllers and I
think also for the Willeys. I suppose one could add a DC:DC if he were
concerned, but then the cost goes up. Or drop in a couple of small 12v
gel batteries to run the logic.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any idea who manufactures or where I can locate a "smart" battery charger
capable of charging individual 6 or 12 volt SLA or AGM/Gel/Deep Cycle
Batteries. When I say "smart" I mean one that will taper off or occasionally do
an equalizing charge. Looking to safely charge individual batteries-not the
entire pack. Suggestions?
Thanks
Don B. Davidson III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been looking around quite a bit, and while I've found some
information, it looks like most people building EVs aren't putting out
their controller designs. Why isn't there an open controller? Am I just
unable to find it?
I ran across a few designs on AustinEV.org, but that's about it. There
is the OSMC, but it's made for robotics.
I'm a fan of open hardware designs, it's silly that everyone has to
re-invent the electric wheel. If people are interested in collaborating,
I don't mind setting up a site for it.
On a side note, it looks like I managed to kill electric7.com
Well, not directly, but I featured it on hackaday - looks like it's been
down since.
Will
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 5th option...
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:10:14 -0400
It also has only 3 motor/ battery lugs so this means no motor amp sense , I
though that was one of Ot's tricks to keep things together .
Since one of the lugs is only a motor connection, couldn't the motor current
be sensed at the lead to that connection?
Phil
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I discovered something. A KLKD fuse can blow without any visible
indications. And the inrush current for an Iota 240V DC-DC will blow a 5A KLKD
fuse instantly. I had to short the fuseholder with a test clip (serving as a
fusible link) before inserting a fuse. Then removed the clip and all was well.
Any recommendations with avoiding this problem in the future? Maybe a resistor
could be added across the fuse?
David Brandt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked into several and purchased a few. Some say they have the correct
algorithm but they do not.
The one I recommend, which charges AGM, Gels and wet properly is the
Interacter http://www.interacter.com/. I have the model PS1210. Since I
was very concerned about the charging algorithm especially with Gels, I data
logged the charging algorithm and it worked perfectly - not like other
units.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don
Sent: October 23, 2006 8:01 AM
To: EV Discussion Group
Subject: Battery Chargers
Any idea who manufactures or where I can locate a "smart" battery charger
capable of charging individual 6 or 12 volt SLA or AGM/Gel/Deep Cycle
Batteries. When I say "smart" I mean one that will taper off or occasionally
do an equalizing charge. Looking to safely charge individual batteries-not
the entire pack. Suggestions?
Thanks
Don B. Davidson III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I picked up a Vector charger per another EV person. It has served me
well for a couple years now. They have many models and they are
available all over. I got mine at Walmart.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Any idea who manufactures or where I can locate a "smart" battery
charger capable of charging individual 6 or 12 volt SLA or
AGM/Gel/Deep Cycle Batteries. When I say "smart" I mean one that will
taper off or occasionally do an equalizing charge. Looking to safely
charge individual batteries-not the entire pack. Suggestions?
> Thanks
> Don B. Davidson III
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does one have sketch/drawings for the rear battery supports they installed
in an S10 (for batteries beneath the bed)?
Able and Willing to email?
I'm not much of a designer nor visionary, so need something to work off of,
especially when my Welding friends go to put it in after I do all the prep
work
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Don,
You can get these chargers from Wal-Mart. They are made by Schumacher which
are a solid state smart charger which is fully automatic microprocessor
controlled.
Can select the charging rated from 100 to 2 amp, for 6 and 12 V regular, 12V
deep cycle and 12V AGM, Gel batteries.
Displays battery percentage and voltage .
It has Automatic Shut Off where the chargers stops charging after the
battery is charged and switches to Maintain Mode.
It has Desulfation Mode which the battery charger detects a sulfated
battery.
When the display indicates 85% charged, the battery has already been charged
at least as much as by most other battery chargers.
I try this charger on one of my ICE vehicles that had a 12 volt battery that
was install in 1991. The voltage display started at 12.2 volts and increase
to 13.5 which stay there for a long time.
It then increase to 15.5 volts for only minutes and then drop back down to
14.5 volts then slowly increase to 15 volts. One time it kick up to 18
volts for a second than came back down to 14.5 volts and than again slowly
increase to 15 volts.
When it reaches 15 volts for a certain amount of time, it will drop to 13.3
volts as a maintainer.
I still have this battery in this 1973 ICE and will crank over a high
performance engine with no problem.
I also carry a smaller Schumacher 30 amp on board charger as a maintainer
for my accessory battery which also provides 12 volt power for units that
are running 24/7.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 9:00 AM
Subject: Battery Chargers
> Any idea who manufactures or where I can locate a "smart" battery charger
> capable of charging individual 6 or 12 volt SLA or AGM/Gel/Deep Cycle
> Batteries. When I say "smart" I mean one that will taper off or
> occasionally do an equalizing charge. Looking to safely charge individual
> batteries-not the entire pack. Suggestions?
> Thanks
> Don B. Davidson III
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The situation was a quite different with MITs Aztec Solar Race car that was
an owned vehicle. This EV1 is under conditions and the contract states it
cannot be made running. So unless this is allowed by GM it is a violation of
the
agreement terms.
If they make this a running vehicle they risk GM ending the agreement with
the EV1 going to an environmental crusher is that better?
One option is to wait until GM releases the conditions of the agreement how
ever long that takes. I am sure arrangements can be made for storage if that
becomes a problem. Another solution would be to try to obtain written
permission from GM to donate the vehicle to a museum.
With such a rare vehicle it should not be just hacked up. We need as many of
these around to remind the public what happened when GM had control of the
NiMH battery and who they sold them to. Want to buy a large NiMH battery see
what Cobasys has to say.
_http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/faq/faq.html_
(http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/faq/faq.html)
The EV1 with NiMH batteries could go 120 to 150 miles. Someday the public
will figure out they can use a vehicle like this To have a real example so the
public can a real car is now this EV1 greatest value. They can build more
electric cars but only if the demand for them occurs.
Don
Don
In a message dated 10/21/2006 9:23:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Arthur,
Get the EV1 going again. It's been done by Brigham Young University.
They race a Silver GM EV1 powered by ultra-capacitors. They have the
NEDRA record for their class. They came out to Maryland to the Power
of DC to race it back in 2005. It's an awesome car.
If you have the technology and know-how to build your own controller
just do that to get it going again. It would be nice to have another
one on the road again. These cars shouldn't be mothballed.
I'm actually speaking from experience in bringing EVs back from the
dead. Our EAA Chapter, EVA/DC, bought MITs Aztec Solar Race car for
$1.00 and we trailered it back to DC in pieces and spent 2 years
restoring it to running condition. It features a carbon fiber body
with gull-wing doors, Solectria drive train, solar panels and seats 2
people. It also features some used parts from my personal EV
including my K&W charger, Curtis pot box and an old Albright
contactor. Alot of us in the club either donated parts and/or put
time and money into the project to get it running again. We have it
registered with the State of Maryland and are working on getting the
solar array up and running again.
We've raced the car at the NEDRA Power of DC and we get invitations
to show it at various solar and environmental functions around DC.
It is alot of work but well worth it.
Chip Gribben
http://www.evadc.org
http://www.nedra.com
On Oct 21, 2006, at 11:23 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: October 21, 2006 6:42:24 PM EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Playing with an EV-1 and/or GM... Any suggestions?
>
>
> I rarely start threads here, but there was no question about this one.
> As I may have mentioned before, I'm involved with the Solar Car
> Team at
> Michigan State University (I'm the longest member). We've recently
> learned that the race for 2007 may not happen because of a lack of
> funding. Besides that, we've never had a car before and are
> finding it
> difficult to get motivation and knowledge to build one from scratch.
> So, the new advisor and I had a talk about other options.
>
> A couple of years ago, the professor who I now work for in graduate
> school took his class to visit MSU's EV-1. I wasn't in the class
> at the
> time, but one of my friends who coincidentally got to test the car
> (Delphi employee, now a Ph.D. in E.E.) called me and I tagged
> along. Of
> course, I brought my camera. Pictures can be seen here:
>
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/msuev1.html
>
> The advisor and I came up with a suggestion of adding solar panels
> to it
> and/or using it to experiment with. (GM of course wanted to design it
> with a solar panel, but they found it would increase the cost too
> much.)
> I just think it would be fun to see it go, no matter what we did. It
> would be better than what we have now, that's for sure. I see this
> as a
> huge opportunity that I don't want to pass up; how many of us would
> even
> get this chance?
>
> So I wrote an E-mail to two people that are in charge of taking
> care of
> it, or giving access to it (I'm concealing their identities). Their
> responses are shown below. We also have a hybrid car from a team that
> existed a few years ago. Keep reading after this!
>
>
> First message, from 'Shop-Supervisor':
>
>> You are welcome to visit/view the EV-1 at your convenience. You may
>> wish to let the folks at 'MSU-Building' (555-5555) know that you will
>> be coming by and arrange a time when they can let you into the
>> storage
>> area.
>>
>> Please check with 'Assistant-Dean' about authorized uses for both the
>> hybrid and the EV-1.
>>
>> My only thought is that there may be some space problems in the Solar
>> cage if you are planning to have one or more of the cars in your cage
>> at 'Solar-Car-Garage.'
>>
>> Let me know if you have any questions.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> 'Shop-Supervisor'
>
>
> Second message, from 'Assistant-Dean':
>
>> Please see the attached letter from GM. They had us and other schools
>> (Wisconsin got a red one) write a proposal to get an EV-1, and
>> then GM
>> got significant liability concerns. They put many restrictions on the
>> use, removed the batteries, and took other measures to essentially
>> make the car inoperable. So it has "zero" range. As we are paying for
>> storage with essentially no use, we have been considering
>> disposing of
>> both cars, but I haven't had the heart to junk a classic collector's
>> item.
>>
>> As I read the attached letter, the vehicle could be cannibalized for
>> parts for another use, or use its components as visual aids in a
>> class. The third bullet would suggest we can't get it running "as an
>> EV-1".
>>
>> The hybrid is ours to use as we wish.
>>
>> Like 'Shop-Supervisor,' my primary concern is whether you have space
>> to bring this vehicle to 'Solar-Car-Garage.' I suggest you and your
>> team go out and take a further look, and have further conversations
>> with 'Shop-Supervisor' about your intent.
>>
>> - 'Assistant-Dean'
>
>
> Now I bet you all want to see the attached letter from GM. So I've
> attached it here in HTML format. Just kidding!
>
> I'll provide it in edited graphic and text format, but I'll need your
> help to interpret it! (It was written long after MSU got the car,
> since
> I saw it in November 2003.)
>
> http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/ev1.gif
>
>> 'Advanced Technology Vehicles' Letterhead
>>
>> November 7, 2005
>>
>> Dear Dr. Professor:
>>
>> We hope that you are enjoying the use of the GM EV1 for educational
>> purposes and that it is providing a good learning opportunity for
>> your
>> students in automotive technology.
>>
>> We wanted to remind you that as part of the donation agreement that
>> the university signed, the school and its representatives agreed
>> that:
>>
>> - It would not sell, give away, donate or in any way transfer
>> ownership of this vehicle or any parts or components therein.
>> - If you find you no longer can use the vehicle and/or its
>> components,
>> the school will scrap them in an appropriate and environmental
>> manner,
>> and/or contact GM for assistance in scrapping.
>> - The school will not attempt to get the vehicle running again as an
>> EV1.
>> - The school will not attempt to get EV1 parts for the vehicle from
>> GM, a Saturn retailer, or any other source.
>>
>> We trust that you will continue to abide by this agreement. If you
>> have any questions, please contact me.
>>
>> Thank you for your continued cooperation.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> 'EV-Program-Manager' (hand-signed)
>
>
> I like how she says to contact GM for assistance in scrapping. Yeah,
> they're awfully good at that. I guess if you're going to scrap an
> electric car, you might as well do it environmentally!
>
>
> Questions for the EV-List:
>
> - Any ideas of what to do with the EV-1, that would be legal?
> - Should I try to get in contact 'EV-Program-Manager' at all?
> - What should I tell the Solar Car Team advisor, the 'Shop-
> Supervisor,'
> and the 'Assistant-Dean'?
> - The hybrid car MSU built from scratch (I think) can be seen at the
> left of some of the EV-1 pictures. You might get a glimpse of its
> name,
> "Spartan Challenger." Should we do anything with it? I think the
> EV-1
> would be 100 times as fun.
> - The team still wants to put effort into building a solar car, albeit
> not much. How would I deal with having two projects? Any ideas on
> how
> to connect the two so the team doesn't think we're giving up on the
> solar car?
> - I could easily build a three-phase motor controller to at least get
> the car going (be forewarned: I'm not ready to sell controllers yet).
> We can supply our own batteries, since we still have some money left.
> - Also...the Solar Car Team's never-used, two-year-old pack of (8)
> Trojan SG-50s died. I charged them once in a while; they never worked
> particularly well. Where did I go wrong? Can they be revived? They
> act like a leaky 100uF capacitor with a 16V zener diode across it, and
> make lots of bubbling noises. (On the contrary, my Renault's flooded
> marine batteries from Sears are still fine after six years.)
> - Should I provide a showing of WKTEC to the Solar Car Team and our
> advisor (he's already "green")? I haven't seen it yet.
> - Any other comments or suggestions?
>
> - Arthur Matteson
> Master's candidate, Elec. Eng., MSU
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David,
Try a Fusetron or Limitron fuse made by Bussman. These are design for
interrupting starting loads. Normally these are available from wholesale
electrical supply houses.
I only use the Limitron fuses in my EV. They are different types for each
type of load such as transformers, motors, resistance, rectifiers and etc.
If a device draws 10 amps, then fuse it for 1.25% higher or for 12.5 amps.
These type of fuses will take a 30 to 50 amp surge without blowing.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDLposts" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 9:46 AM
Subject: dc-dc working
> Well, I discovered something. A KLKD fuse can blow without any visible
> indications. And the inrush current for an Iota 240V DC-DC will blow a 5A
> KLKD fuse instantly. I had to short the fuseholder with a test clip
> (serving as a fusible link) before inserting a fuse. Then removed the
> clip and all was well.
>
> Any recommendations with avoiding this problem in the future? Maybe a
> resistor could be added across the fuse?
>
>
>
>
>
> David Brandt
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
any luck or info on the 'precharge' circuit? sounds crucial, I too am about
to embark on a
conversion project, and was thinking of Curtis ... (since Zillas seem not to
be available)
Seth
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
Well, John, I need a controller for a conversion I am doing this winter.
Since it is for a customer, I would prefer a new one, but I can't wait 6
months on a Z1K. Anyone out there have a new Raptor that you would sell to
upgrade to a Zilla, and you can wait that long?
I may have to go with a Cursit, but I'd prefer not to; If I do, can
someone
help me with a precharge circuit? I can build it, but not design it.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
Hello to All,
Roger Stockton wrote:
>
>What DC'ers need is a Curtis-killer, not something that tries to compete
>with Otmar's already excellent offerings.
>
>
Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense! Considering how lame the
Curtis is, a 'Curtis Killer' isn't much of a challenge.
>We need an updated Raptor 600. Forget the series-parallel shifting and
>even the electric reverse; if someone is going direct drive or with dual
>motors, they're probably going to want the extra oomph of at least a Z1K
>anyway. Forget the 1000+ amps; if someone wants 1000A, they'll buy a
>Z1K; if they want more, a Z2K.
>
>
Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense!
>96V to perhaps 192V is going to cover most anyone who
>would have bought this controller instead of a Curtis or being pushed
>into a Zilla due to choosing a pack voltage over 144V.
>
>
Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense!
>My essential spec/feature list for a Curtis-Killer is:
>
>- 600 adjustable battery amps
>
>- handles at least the range of 96-144V; 156V is almost essential, and
>up to ~200V would be even better
>
>- precharge/contactor control
>
>- basic fault detection (open/short throttle, high pedal lockout)
>
>- rev limiter (and a tach drive output sure would be nice)
>
>- integrated heatsink (water-cooled is preferable
>
>- priced on par with 1231C + appropriate heatsink.
>
>- contactor failure detection
>
>- controller failure detection & auto contactor dropout
>
>
>
Roger, how on earth does one come up with such a wonderfully thought-out
wish list, and leave out
'silent operation-no Curtis squeal!'???? Or, did you assume that no one
in their right mind would ever again, design a road-going EV controller
to make such an awful, irritating noise?
From Mike Sandman:
>I just ordered a kit from KTA using a 1231C-7701 for my 120v system.
I'm curious Mike, did they tell you up front that this controller will
cause your EV's drive motor to make an irritating non-varying squeal
when you take off or cruise with a light throttle? Did they tell you
that this controller has no safety features? Did they tell you it has no
automatic precharge, and that if you don't design your own, it could
blow up when the line contactor engages and send your EV off at full
throttle? Did they tell you it cannot be adjusted for a battery input
current limit to protect your battery pack investment? My guess is no to
all the above.
If it's not too late, you could save a bundle by purchasing a used
Curtis 1221B controller. It's a bit less powerful at 400 amps, but it's
silent and you could get one for maybe $300 if anyone has one available.
The money saved would allow you to build a precharge circuit and pocket
at least $500 cash, too. Better still, a used Raptor 600 could be found
for maybe $800, is silent, properly cooled, has dip switch programming,
and 900 amps motor loop current.
I understand having to watch one's EV budget, but with one as high as
$15k the last area I would have cut costs on would be on the all
important motor controller. You may have saved $500-$600 by stepping
w-a-ay down to the Curtis, but you gave up a lot of features that would
have made your conversion more fun, far more pleasant, much smoother,
more versatile, twice as powerful, and far safer, and...you gained a lot
of negatives as described above.
From Steve Powers:
>When you get to more than 600 batt amps, you are really killing the
>pack.
Is this one of those comments again, where one has to have read
everything that came before and know that you might be talking about wet
cell type batteries (and just didn't specify this), or do you really
think that currents this low will harm powerful AGMs like Optimas,
Hawkers, and Orbitals? Those of us using AGMs of higher quality know
that the opposite is true, in that the high performance type AGMs
actually give their best service life routinely dishing out BIG
currents. 600 amps from the better AGMs is nothing. The Optimas in Blue
Meanie lasted 6.5 years, and pretty close to each time it was taken out
for a run, 1000 amps were sucked from them multiple times. Sure, under
all out racing where you might suck 1000 amps from small 24.5 lb.
batteries for 12 continuous seconds, it is stressful and sometimes fatal
for the batteries, but for normal fun street driving 1000 amps for 5-6
seconds from larger 40+ lb. AGMs is kid's stuff....besides, you're
already well above the speed limit in that amount of time and will be
off throttle and back to sub 100 amp levels.
One more item to be added to Roger's list...compact size. Oat's Z1K's
small near cube-shaped super compact size is not only amazing
considering the thing cranks out 1000 full amps, it's also a blessing in
an already crowded under-hood compartment. Though my experiences with
the DCP Raptor 1200 were nothing but positive, its large bulky size was
not a plus.
See Ya......John Wayland
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date:
10/20/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
I think the list you made is great, but the downside to such a unit I see
is that if one component breaks, there is no way to keep going with a jerry
rig. I'd have to send both units (one component) in for repair losing
mobility
As most of our cars are now, we probably have a spare controller (or can
get one from someone else while the one is out for repairs), can build a
badboy charger, or jumper any of the other subcomponent.
But if the one $5,000 unit goes, we send it away for repairs, it is until
it is fixed till we're back on the road (unless it is built such that I can
open it and tinker with the broken pieces. (though I don't like the idea of
opening a controller or charger - too much mystery for me)
Now, True, it makes a conversion eaiser for avg. Joe. But I don't think
average Joe has the ability to convert a car.
Lastly, I have a joy of finally knowing how my car works, and how to
troubleshoot it. I'm not a slave to the gasoline auto mechanics schedule
and rates to keep my car going.
If something goes wrong, I can pretty much diagnose where the problem is
and fix myself or know what to send out. Even if it isn't efficient
time-wise; it is alot of fun.
as far as price. I'm still saving up for a PFC30. Its nice to buy a
component at a time (spreads the bills further)
Still, whatever is produced and is good, I'm game for it when I can afford
it.
-Ben
---------------------------------------------------------
all of the following:
- Charger with BMS control. Built or programmable charging profiles for
AGM, Gel, Flooded, NiCd, NiMh, LiPoly, etc.
- Contactor
- Circuit breaker with remote disconnect hardware.
- Controller
- Motor side and battery side fuse "slots" (i.e. add fuse of your liking)
- Outputs for battery and motor volts & amps gauges. (no external shunts
needed).
- Fully isolated DC/DC converter.
- Programmable Controller driver. Both Hall-effect and 0-5k pot inputs.
Motor RPM input and output. Other "dash light" outputs at 12V like "Low
Battery", "Stall", "Overheat", "Charging", etc.
Such a box would vastly lower the amount of knowledge needed to build a
"from scratch" DC-based car. I know this idea is going to get shot down
as "impractical" but
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:00:33 -0400, you wrote:
>Any idea who manufactures or where I can locate a "smart" battery charger
>capable of charging individual 6 or 12 volt SLA or AGM/Gel/Deep Cycle
>Batteries. When I say "smart" I mean one that will taper off or occasionally
>do an equalizing charge. Looking to safely charge individual batteries-not the
>entire pack. Suggestions?
>Thanks
>Don B. Davidson III
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
I use ten 1200A.
http://store.schumachermart.com/battery-chargers-automotive-speed-chargers.html
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> And are there other suggestions for an under $400 EV motor that has a
> plain,
> non-splined shaft?
Not quite /under/ $400, but close
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/adc.htm
The Tropica uses two of these motors in a direct drive setup (in fact this
is probably surplus from when Tropica went under). One would be fine in a
motorcycle or possibly a small car with a multi-speed transmission.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll seriously build a DC controller if someone sends me a module...
http://catalog.rell.com/rellecom/scripts/SkuPage.asp?SKU=341860&PNO=&PNM=
You get 800 motor amps peak, for up to one-quarter of the voltage
output. Full output is 400 amps (hey, that's up to 60kW...how long do
your batteries last then anyway?). The highest battery voltage is 156;
but slightly more volts are negotiable when charging.
And I'll post all the designs up on your website, Will, if you make one.
That includes software and digital pictures of putting the hardware
together.
I need capacitors too. (16) of Digi-Key's 478-2615-ND. Or should I say
AVX's FFV34H0506K:
http://tinyurl.com/yxymx8 (link may not work for you, $26.13 each)
That's about $700 in major parts. Extras will be about $100 not
including the heatsink. I'll gladly do liquid-cooled, but you pay.
When I'm done testing, I'll take it apart and send it back to whomever
bought me the parts. Then, that person can put it back together with
the instructions on the website. This reduces the liability for me.
I'm a graduate student, so I have limited time. But I can make deals.
- Arthur
On Mon, 2006-10-23 at 10:18 -0500, Obrien, Haskell W. wrote:
> I've been looking around quite a bit, and while I've found some
> information, it looks like most people building EVs aren't putting out
> their controller designs. Why isn't there an open controller? Am I just
> unable to find it?
>
> I ran across a few designs on AustinEV.org, but that's about it. There
> is the OSMC, but it's made for robotics.
>
> I'm a fan of open hardware designs, it's silly that everyone has to
> re-invent the electric wheel. If people are interested in collaborating,
> I don't mind setting up a site for it.
>
> On a side note, it looks like I managed to kill electric7.com
> Well, not directly, but I featured it on hackaday - looks like it's been
> down since.
>
> Will
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> (I have yet to hear of water-cooled capacitors ;-)
There are some that come close; I've seen large electrolytics with studs
to allow them to be firmly attached to a heatsink, and I've seen others
that were toroidal (i.e. have a hole through the center through which
air can be forced, or one could probably rig up a means of pumping
coolant through).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I went out to pull it off the charger the error light on the charger was on
:-( (altho it did start to charge ok)
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart has posted many precharge circuits, so check the archives. He
uses a regular 75W household bulb and a relay. If you have just one
contactor, then you wire the bulb and relay in series across the
contactor terminals. When you stick the key in the ignition (or when
you turn the key on, your choice) the relay gets closed. The bulb
flashes, then dims, indicating that the controller is precharged. Take
about 2 seconds.
If you like a more complex system that makes you turn the key to the
start position first, here's another circuit Lee posted.
> Use a couple relays. Something like this (view with fixed width font):
>
> main contactor
> +HV_________________/_______________________controller B+
> | | | |
> | K1 | | < potentiometer
> |____/_____/\/\____| -->< adjust so K2 pulls in
> 75w lamp < at about 90% of pack
> | voltage
> +12v__________________/______/___ |
> |___/_____ key K2 | |
> key | run | |
> start |_ |_ |_
> _| main _| _| K2
> K1 _| contactor _| _| coil rated for pack
> 12v _| 12v _| _| voltage or less
> | | | (can be AC or DC)
> gnd gnd |
> -HV__________________________________________|
>
> When you turn the key to 'run', the main contactor does not pull in
> because K2 is not on (no voltage at the controller input). When you turn
> the key further to 'start', K1 pulls in. Its contact connects the HV
> pack to the controller thru the 75 watt lamp as a precharge resistor,
> and the controller precharges.
>
> When the controller reaches about 90% of full voltage, K2 pulls in.
> Adjust the potentiometer to set the exact voltage where this occurs.
> Most relays pull in at about 60-80% of their rated voltage, so a 110vdc
> coil is about right for a 72v pack. You will have trouble finding coils
> for higher DC voltages, but you can also use a relay with a 120vac or
> 240vac coil (AC relays pull in at 40-60% of their rated voltage on DC).
>
> When K2 pulls in, the controller is precharged. Now the main contactor
> can pull in thru the key 'run' switch and K2's contact.
>
> So, you turn the key; the 75w lamp blinks, and a second later you hear a
> 'clunk' as the main contactor pulls in. Let go of the key and it remains
> in the 'run' position. K1 and the precharge resistor turn of, but they
> aren't needed anymore anyway. Just drive.
>
> When you turn the key off, the main contactor drops and K1 is already
> off. The controller will gradually discharge, so after a while K2 drops
> off, too. So there are zero parasitic load currents.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've trying to get one of my three wheelers back on the road and it needs
new brake shoes. Unfortunately I used wheels from a slightly rare moped
that hasn't been made for about 20 years, so the shoes are no longer
available.
Does anyone know of a good shop that relines small brake shoes?
Failing that, I see I can buy brake shoe lining material at McMasterCarr.
Anyone know what kind of adhesive I should use to glue this onto the
shoes with?
Note: these particular shoes only had bonded on lining, no rivets.
Thanks.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Somehow my first paragraph got deleted....
As I was driving to work today my RAV faulted with about 30% SOC and would
not reboot. I had it towed to work and tried to put it on my charger.
When I went out to pull it off the charger the error light on the charger was
on :-( (altho it did start to charge ok)
Anyone have any idea what I should try next, I am already aranging to
borrow a tech tool to read the codes.
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mmmm, anyone have any dealings with Arthur?
I'm holding my credit card drooling :op
what would be the voltage range on such a controller?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: open controller designs?
I'll seriously build a DC controller if someone sends me a module...
http://catalog.rell.com/rellecom/scripts/SkuPage.asp?SKU=341860&PNO=&PNM=
You get 800 motor amps peak, for up to one-quarter of the voltage
output. Full output is 400 amps (hey, that's up to 60kW...how long do
your batteries last then anyway?). The highest battery voltage is 156;
but slightly more volts are negotiable when charging.
And I'll post all the designs up on your website, Will, if you make one.
That includes software and digital pictures of putting the hardware
together.
I need capacitors too. (16) of Digi-Key's 478-2615-ND. Or should I say
AVX's FFV34H0506K:
http://tinyurl.com/yxymx8 (link may not work for you, $26.13 each)
That's about $700 in major parts. Extras will be about $100 not
including the heatsink. I'll gladly do liquid-cooled, but you pay.
When I'm done testing, I'll take it apart and send it back to whomever
bought me the parts. Then, that person can put it back together with
the instructions on the website. This reduces the liability for me.
I'm a graduate student, so I have limited time. But I can make deals.
- Arthur
On Mon, 2006-10-23 at 10:18 -0500, Obrien, Haskell W. wrote:
I've been looking around quite a bit, and while I've found some
information, it looks like most people building EVs aren't putting out
their controller designs. Why isn't there an open controller? Am I just
unable to find it?
I ran across a few designs on AustinEV.org, but that's about it. There
is the OSMC, but it's made for robotics.
I'm a fan of open hardware designs, it's silly that everyone has to
re-invent the electric wheel. If people are interested in collaborating,
I don't mind setting up a site for it.
On a side note, it looks like I managed to kill electric7.com
Well, not directly, but I featured it on hackaday - looks like it's been
down since.
Will
--- End Message ---
