EV Digest 6068
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Splined Adapters, Was: Inexpensive DC Motors with Keyed Shafts
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electric boat vehicles in wooden boat magazine
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 72V Power Supply - Can I build one?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Precharge Circuit Design
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Mechanical control
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Attn. Colorado EV'ers
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Mechanical control, was: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) I can build your controller
by Rocketjosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Government Approvals and Certifications
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EV Transaxle, was: Mechanical control, was: EV controllers? the 4th
option...
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Government Approvals and Certifications
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Bradley GTE Project
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Bradley GTE Project
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) EVer in the Land of Oil...Electric Arctic Adventure!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on fr
eeway?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Low voltage?
How would these dual trench gate Powerex IGBTs at 1200volts compare. The 300
amp one has a switch time total of only 630ns and a Vce (sat) of 1.8 volts.
Also available on ebay for about $20 each.
http://www.pwrx.com/pages/search/search_prod_rslts.asp?catid=50&partno=CM300DU-24F&sortby=0&speclist=0&catname=IGBTs
Also available as dual 600 amps modules.
http://www.pwrx.com/pages/search/search_prod_rslts.asp?catid=50&partno=CM600DU-24F&sortby=0&speclist=0&catname=IGBTs
Ezesport
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
> Would a couple of these work well for a PWM controller?
> http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/7738/ste110ns20fd.pdf
This is a single MOSFET in an Isotop package. The Isotop is a great
package (screw terminals, isolated base, etc.) but expensive. This
particular MOSFET is too small for a car-sized controller (Rds=0.024
ohms max means just 21 amps for a 1v drop), but ten in parallel would
outperform a Curtis 1231C.
Here are examples of the kind of dual MOSFET module I was thinking of:
http://www.ixys.net/l401.pdf (100v, 680a)
http://www.ixys.net/l389.pdf (300v, 280a)
Or two of these (one for pullup, one for pulldown):
http://www.ixys.net/l410.pdf (200v, 580a)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think we were mainly focussing on DC controllers,
which require only one switching part plus a diode,
in most cases multiple of the same in parallel to
share the current.
Your module suggestions are for AC drive, although
I like them a lot, you can see they are built for
assembly, as the ordering of the terminals allow
a HV DC bus to run over the first two terminals
(straight from the capacitor bank) and the output
terminal (junction of the pull up and pull down
transistor) is located at the edge of the device,
ready for a lug or strip to carry the current to
the AC motor terminals.
The only reason to use this module for DC would be
to use one (switching) transistor plus the freewheel
diode from the other transistor to get the two power
parts in one package (and not use the other two).
Most modules have a diode inferior to the transistor
but in this case the diode is the part with the
higher rating and lower forward voltage, resulting
in less dissipation. I like that.
Hey, they are around the corner in Santa Clara.
Do they offer samples?
(I recently had another manufacturer send me
300V 90A or so sample IGBTs and diodes)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
> Would a couple of these work well for a PWM controller?
> http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/7738/ste110ns20fd.pdf
This is a single MOSFET in an Isotop package. The Isotop is a great
package (screw terminals, isolated base, etc.) but expensive. This
particular MOSFET is too small for a car-sized controller (Rds=0.024
ohms max means just 21 amps for a 1v drop), but ten in parallel would
outperform a Curtis 1231C.
Here are examples of the kind of dual MOSFET module I was thinking of:
http://www.ixys.net/l401.pdf (100v, 680a)
http://www.ixys.net/l389.pdf (300v, 280a)
Or two of these (one for pullup, one for pulldown):
http://www.ixys.net/l410.pdf (200v, 580a)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 25, 2006, at 1:18 PM, Eric Poulsen wrote:
Downside is that this motor is _definitely_ used, despite the website
claiming it to be new. I originally paid $400, which included
shipping. It arrived poorly packed and with a smashed armature
terminal and bent hanging bracket. I contacted Surplus Center about
it's packing and state, and suggested a $200 refund. So, in the end I
got the motor for $200. There is very light rust pretty much
everywhere but the shaft. I'm presently cleaning it up, and it's
looking better all the time, now that I can see the shiny metal under
all that paint. Biggest drawback is the large 11" diameter faceplate.
This can be cut down on a lathe, but then you'd need to drill NEMA
mounting holes, and have the front centering disk reduced. Even
though it's diameter is 7", and the ADC 6.7" has a 2" diameter
centering disk, this is probably too small considering the 1.25"
shaft. Heck, the front roller bearing is > 2" diameter.
Prestolite motor adapters are generally available and the centering
ring for the common MTC-4001 motor is around 8.5 inches (yes, larger
than the motor diameter due to an oversize end bell.) The Presto has a
partly buried shaft (only sticks past the end bell 3/4 inch) so you may
need to get an extra spacer ring.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cruise all day with no gas costs!
Yes it's an old invention it's called a sail. Now when the wind dies down
you can use all that energy you collected during the day and sail all night.
That is if you need too. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like you've got an idea of whats going on so far. If you happen to live
in Phoenix I just might have a couple of junk testers I can donate to the
cause, I'm converting one to a gel pack right now.
I know GEM's pretty well so if you have any specific problems get in touch
with me. There is a Yahoo Group NEV's which if you join has a good files
section with the service manual on there. If the Aux DC/DC converter board
doesn't work there is good news too.... there's a recall on it. As you can see
the board is exposed and there happens to be a nice channel where water can get
to that board and cause it to die. There is a potted version of that now and
they also install some splash guarding. If it does work though I'd just let it
ride and keep the freebie in case you ever need it. I have known a few of those
boards to simply die on their own (and it's about a $800 part otherwise!).
Also, what year is it? If it's a 99-01 it probably has the big alluminum box
Schott charger. It might work, but they are notoriously bad units that, in my
experience, die and try to take the battery pack to the grave with them. If
it's a late 01-04 it'll have a Zivan charger, if this is the case say hurray,
these are good chargers. The only problem is the stock charge profile in them
was not aggressive enough, but you can send it to Elcon in California
(www.zivanusa.com) for a reprogram. There is also a known issue with the input
fuse holder inside these chargers, they tend to melt. If your comfortable with
a soldering iron removing the fuse holder and soldering in a more permanent
fuse is the long term fix. The newer GEM's have DeltaQ chargers in them, and I
believe there is a retforit kit for these that isn't too insanely priced.
Another good GEM resource you might want to check out is www.evtrader.com and
click on forums (the store hasn't worked for a long time).
Good luck,
Rick
Original Message:
Actually I already connected the motor to a 12v battery to verify that
the
motor works. It's the motor/controller interface that I'm concerned
with.
I have a feeling the controller has a lock-out and will not function if
the
voltage is below some threshold, say 66V. Same with the circuit board
that
includes the DC-DC converter and other control. I kind of like the
"find 6
old batteries at the junkyard" idea.
Thanks.
Martin
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 25, 2006, at 1:48 PM, Chris Jones wrote:
I have a Curtis 1231C-8601. The manual says 750 ohms
at only 25W, but fresh off a charge I too am at it's
peak input of 175V, so that's 233 mA and 41W.
The input of the Curtis will not look like a short except when you
first precharge. Once the resistor is in place and the cap bank charged
current will be restricted by the input capacitor bleeder resistor (the
now charged caps look like an open circuit to DC.)
Oh, that and the power used by ksi to keep the controller on. I
recommend a relay, in parallel with the main contactor, to shut if off
when the main contactor is off (this will greatly reduce the power
consumption of the precharge circuit too.)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I'd rather see their numbers using
ammonia gas, since it does occur naturally.
The real big problem here is that from what I'm
reading lately, the main source of anhydrous
ammonia (NH3) is reformed natural gas. One
of the byproducts of the process is a massive
amount of CO2, which at present is simply
being vented.
Ran into that in some research about anhydrous
as a first-stage hydrogen fuel -- unfortunately
right now it looks to me like it's got a huge
carbon impact, even though the carbon's blown
off before the fuel comes to market.
Natural occurrence is great, but industrial processes
that depend on natural sources for hydrogen
tend to get real expensive fast.
Chuck
_________________________________________________________________
Say hello to the next generation of Search. Live Search try it now.
http://www.live.com/?mkt=en-ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
I will be in the Denver Colorado area all afternoon tomorrow, Friday the
27th. If any EV'ers in the area would be willing to show off their
conversion, I'd love to stop by.
Please contact me off list.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> This is exactly what I am proposing... High voltage
> Curtii Killer, with some goodies, Not many.
You certainly seem to have something definite in mind, but it sounds a
lot more like a Zilla-wannabe than a Curtis Killer to me.
I'm all for extending the voltage reach as high as possible, but not at
the expense of pushing the cost so high that the people who would have
bought a Curtis will continue to do so. IGBTs may not have the quantum
cost steps with voltage that mOSFETs do, but they aren't the only
voltage-dependant parts, and cost of all of these things still
increases with voltage.
You suggest that you'd need to get about $2k/unit, and there'd be mark
up on top, so its sounding like a cost in the $2500-3000 range, which
I'm afraid means its really not a threat to Curtis business at all.
The key to you having any success with the product you describe seems to
lie with Otmar being unable to keep up with orders indefinitely, and
you being able to steal enough of his Z1K customers to make it worth
your while.
I really don't see that many Curtis buyers paying $1k more for a
controller, and those that would will consider carefully when the same
money buys a university-educated lizard instead of a dumb as a box of
rocks model with less power and fewer features.
> The point is a easy to buld easy to service, simple power
> stage simple analog controller that just gets the job done.
Sounds great!
> You want software? Fine You write the code and support it.
> By the time most folks get the code solid enough for
> shipping, I will be shipping about the 250the unit.
Analog is fine as long as you're content with a dumb as a box of rocks
device. Building it on a micro lets you offer it as dumb as you like
to start with, and then add all the bells and whistles you or your
customers want later far more cheaply than if you try to stick with all
analog circuitry.
> > If you absolutely don't want the headache/dev effort of
> > supporting comms, at least have the decency to provide
> > thumbwheels or indexed rotary switches, etc. for positive
> > setting of current limit(s) and RPM limits.
> Clearly NOT a chance. All the stuff is a bugger to keep
> clean and water resistant.
An indexed rotary switch is no different to protect than a 25-turn pot.
Thumbwheels you might have a valid argument against, but then again you
can stick them behind a lexan or Al plate just as easily and
effectively as anything else.
> You are clearly thinking about digital controls.
Not at all. If you can set current limit with a pot, then you can also
arrange the circuit so that by default it is set to min amps and by
turning either a rotary switch or indexed single-turn pot you parallel
additional resistance in the appropriate spot to increase the current
limit.
You could certainly use a binary encoded rotary switch to control a
digital pot and have digital control without a micro, but that sounds
more expensive than necessary to me.
> > I think you're missing the boat with encouraging people to
> > use a PB6. The pot is junk, and at $75 a pop there should
> > be a good revenue opportunity here by offering your own
> > competitively-priced version based on a quality pot and
> > intended to survive the automotive underhood environment.
>
> Yup but I don't care where you get a 10k pot.
> A PB6 is cheap and they are every where. Multi sourced,
> and well. What else matters?
Well, there's the small matter of $75 for a crappy pot that won't remain
reliable under the hood of a car for very long. I personally don't
consider $75 for this cheap; $75 for a simple 5k potbox that would last
reliably would be a great deal.
> Oh you mean I should hand make somthing out of PVC pipe and
> old Phone wire?? Been there done that.
Nope, but those were a damn nice throttle 'pot' setup. Nothing to wear
out, and easy to connect to any throttle cable and adjust for throw,
etc.
> Or do you mean a $500 throttle pot from a quality ICE doner rig?
> that might meet spec..
That's more along the lines of what I was thinking, but they're a hell
of a lot cheaper than that even new. Some quality sealed pots intended
for automotive duty were discussed on list recently; I think they might
have been in the $40 ballpark and I'm sure someone looking build
hundreds of controllers could get a decent pricebreak even on quantity
100 purchases.
> Hey the EV world uses PB6 pot boxes... I am taking the easy
> way our here. Heck Otmar does.
Hey its your call, but I think there'd be a certain satisfaction to
building a PB6 replacement suitable for the on-road environment and
putting $25-30 in *your* pocket everytime Otmar, Curtis, or you sell a
controller to an on-road application.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 600s are not availble in stock. Good part
The 400 are in limited quantity.
Best part is a CM400DY-12NF
The 600NF is the part of choice. With a 24 week lead time
Crap!
The NF series is the good stuff the NFH is fast but lossey.
We use the NF in the PFC50s, to a very good result.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
Low voltage?
How would these dual trench gate Powerex IGBTs at 1200volts compare. The
300 amp one has a switch time total of only 630ns and a Vce (sat) of 1.8
volts. Also available on ebay for about $20 each.
http://www.pwrx.com/pages/search/search_prod_rslts.asp?catid=50&partno=CM300DU-24F&sortby=0&speclist=0&catname=IGBTs
Also available as dual 600 amps modules.
http://www.pwrx.com/pages/search/search_prod_rslts.asp?catid=50&partno=CM600DU-24F&sortby=0&speclist=0&catname=IGBTs
Ezesport
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
> Would a couple of these work well for a PWM controller?
> http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/7738/ste110ns20fd.pdf
This is a single MOSFET in an Isotop package. The Isotop is a great
package (screw terminals, isolated base, etc.) but expensive. This
particular MOSFET is too small for a car-sized controller (Rds=0.024
ohms max means just 21 amps for a 1v drop), but ten in parallel would
outperform a Curtis 1231C.
Here are examples of the kind of dual MOSFET module I was thinking of:
http://www.ixys.net/l401.pdf (100v, 680a)
http://www.ixys.net/l389.pdf (300v, 280a)
Or two of these (one for pullup, one for pulldown):
http://www.ixys.net/l410.pdf (200v, 580a)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you could be wrong about the sparking issue and the idea that it
can't be done with straight comm segments and straight brushes. Since
this is not in the motor the current goes the same way thru all bars all
the time. This, and the fact that there wouldn't be a big magnetic field
nearby, would allow you to put capacitors on the output and the free
wheel diodes. This is just 4 mechanical switching elements in parallel
They are individualy more robust than mosfets, and we do ok with those. :-)
This idea was recommended for high power low cost(relatively) racing. I
thought of AGM's and dual 9"s in a re-inforced mitsu-PU. I I had some
bucks I would like to play with this idea. I agree that the cost of
making a comm probably makes this only useable in the over 1000 motor
amp usages.
The motor has inductance and the capacitors would help. As the overlap,
lets say 1% only, happens the current starts to rise but the switch
going back off keeps the voltage from climbing to much and therefore the
current also. This is all just back-of-the napkin thinking, but I would
like to try it.
200hz? I was thinking more like 2.4Khz
6000rpm/60 * 24 bars
But I have other EV projects I would rather spend my money on
New battery balancer idea
electric brake booster
AC motor and controller and a transaxle where everthing except the
case is avail aftermarket or from the local wrecking yard.
Electromagnetec Air Conditioner
etc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been following the controller discussion and I
want to help. I work in the consumer electronics industry and
think that I can be of service. I have visited many factories in China
and work closely with overseas manufacturers and suppliers.
Ive got a degree in Aerospace engineering, I can do CAD design.
If you design a good controller, I can get it built - quick and cheap. The
volumes do not matter right now, I can source parts and labor overseas. Its my
job.
Who wants to work together?
Josh
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What legal/government certifications/tests are required for battery
chargers, controllers, motors for sale?
There must be some safety testing, particularly for high-voltage (> 48v).
Where would I find the laws for this.
thanks,
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> But I have other EV projects I would rather spend my money on...
> a transaxle where everthing except the
> case is avail aftermarket or from the local wrecking yard.
Jeff, please tell us more about your transaxle idea. It sounds interesting.
I always thought that an old Subaru 4WD wagon could make a good conversion.
You would mount the motor behind the rear axle and drive the reversed IRS
rear differential directly. Get rid of the transmission, clutch and front
drive parts. Would need a slower speed motor though since you lost the gear
reduction in the trans...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I posted in Dec 2003 to this group on the sudject of "Mind Your
Units". The message is available here.
http://www.evsource.com/articles/mind_your_units.php
Many people think that getting the units right is not important. I
personally think that it is the most important thing. At the very
least, it avoids many confusions.
On 10/26/06, David Roden (Akron OH USA) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 26 Oct 2006 at 12:17, GWMobile wrote:
> How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
There are no such units as "Watts per hour." A Watt is a measure of power
rather
than of energy, so the term "Watts per hour" is meaningless.
Now, Watt-hours (note : NOT "watt/hours") are a measure of energy. A Watt-hour
is
the expenditure of one Watt for one hour. Watt-hours per hour makes sense, but
Watt-hours per hour are ... just Watts. (Mathematically, the hours cancel out.)
So, to answer the question I think you're asking - how much power an EV uses on
the highway - that would be measured in Watts (or, more realistically,
kiloWatts). A
typical small car conversion will need 10-15kW to maintain 60 mph. Very
efficient 4-
wheelers will use somewhat less; trucks and large cars will use more, perhaps
MUCH more.
To look at it another way, 200 to 250 Wh (watt-hours) per mile is typical.
Someone else wrote :
> This AM, I unplugged the charger and found I had used 5.12
> Killowatts to recharge.
I think similar confusion is indicated here.
You may have used 5.12 kiloWatt HOURS (kWh) to recharge, but if you'd used
5.12kW, you'd certainly have tripped the circuit breaker. A conventional 120
volt
household receptacle can supply 2.4 kiloWatts for a few minutes (1.9kW
sustained).
Even a special 120 volt, 30 amp receptacle tops out at 3.6kW. A dryer
receptacle
(240 volts at 30 amps) could supply almost 5.8kW for an extended period, but of
course you'd need a 240 volt charger to take advantage of that capability.
There's a recurring confusion between power and energy, and a lack of
understanding
of units, on this list. Oh, heck, it's not just here, it's everywhere. This
widespread
misunderstanding is symptomatic of the abject failure of our nation's schools
to teach
basic science and math.
I'm lousy at explaining this stuff, so the above is probably hopeless obscure.
Anybody working with EVs really needs to understand these concepts. Anyone
know of a website which explains this in layman's terms?
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Software's the easist part. In fact it's much easier to make a PWM with
a PIC than anything else, and making it "full featured" once you have a
microcontroller in there is a breeze. I can help you with the software.
Danny
Rich Rudman wrote:
Reply Line By line.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
From: Rich Rudman
This is exactly what I am proposing... High voltage Curtis Killer, with
some goodies, not many... 96V to perhaps 192V... 500 amp... is going
to cover most anyone who would have bought this controller instead
of a Curtis... I am proposing an IGBT module based machine.
IGBTs are generally good for higher voltages and lower currents than
this. Your controller will have on the order of a 3v drop; that's 1500
watts
at 500 amps. Dissipating 1500 watts takes some pretty impressive (and
expensive) heatsinks.
First take 2.1 volts of drop and maybe even 1.8 if the current spec is still
real.
1500 watt is Well doable... good fans needed.
Under 200v, I'd prefer MOSFETs. Use them for both the transistors and
freewheel diodes (synchronous rectification). This will get the drop under
1v, which mean 1/3rd the heat to get rid of.
Sync Rect is a nice idea.. But comes at a cost that's well a pain. The
diodes in a IGBT module are not the best, But.. good enough.
Modules are really nice because they get rid of dozens of tiny little
devices that must be meticulously wired in parallel. A controller like this
would need a dual MOSFET "half bridge" module.
Yup, I pay for somebody else to asseble and balence the discretes.. That's
the whole reason behind modules in the first place.
The voltage limits I think are a waste of time.
I disagree. The low limit prevents you from ruining your batteries by
running them dead. The high limit keeps you from destroying the controller
from excessive voltage (typically caused by chargers, or by too much battery
inductance or resistance).
Low volt limits keep you from Killing your pack.
High volt limits on the motor side keep you from killing the brushes and
motor.
High v shut down limits or contactor drops may keep you from vaporizing the
controller. But.. having 600 volt parts, it's going to be rare that you will
exceede these limits.
At over 600 V ... hey yer so far off the data points that a fail will
happen.
The point is a easy to buld easy to service, simple power stage simple
analog controller that just gets the job done.
I agree. There is little point to micros and software in a basic
controller.
Add a micro-controlled "hairball" if you want bells and whistles, like
cruise
control, regen, series/parallel contactor switching, etc.
Add the Bling to the controller when you have a demand and cash flow to make
it so.
precharge/contactor control
basic fault detection (open/short throttle, high pedal lockout)
Yes; it's so simple that it would be foolish to leave it out.
rev limiter (and a tach drive output sure would be nice)
The feature list of the Raptor, 10 years later is still a valid one. Been
there, got the Scars.
For a simple "black box" controller, such functions should be simple
enough to add that it doesn't need to be designed and integrated into
the controller. For instance, the controller might just have an "inhibit"
input that shuts it down if it exceeds X volts. The user could work out
circuits to apply a voltage proportional to RPM, or temperature, or
whatever.
packaged to survive the automotive underhood environment.
Definitely! Too many controllers are being built in places that don't
have weather. They are packaged like indoor office equipment.
No I am not making a submersible product.
I would! :-) Use a NEMA enclosure with a heatsink on the outside.
UGly!!! That won't happen.
I have some ideas.. But.. I wouldn't put the controller or any power devices
down in the salt spray and road Grime.
A OEM contract might change my angle on this....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Basically, there are none.
The National Electric Code includes a section about requirements for EV
charging equipment, however there has been a lot of discussion about
whether or not the NEC exceeded it's authority since it normally only
applies to permanent wiring. Technically, if your charger is not
permanently connected to the mains, the NEC doesn't apply to it.
Oh yeah, the NEC is only a set of recomendations anyway, your local
government has to decide to accept them and pass legeslation to that
effect.
As far as the on board equipment, the only certifications/tests pertain to
insuring that it meets the EPA requirements for when the vehicle was
manufactured, i.e this relates to the amount of pollution the vehicle
produces while operating...well, and the amount of fuel vapors that can
vent while parked.
Neither really apply to EVs. Well, every now and then you come across a
typical bureacrat that insists you have a muffler on your EV some other
such silliness.
> What legal/government certifications/tests are required for battery
> chargers, controllers, motors for sale?
> There must be some safety testing, particularly for high-voltage (> 48v).
> Where would I find the laws for this.
> thanks,
> Jack
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I researched through the EVDL list, looking at various comments from people
about chargers. There were a number of people who had problems with NGs,
and difficulty getting repairs. Although these comments may have been an
anomaly, I just didn't want to risk it. Maybe you have had a good
experience, I just did want to have a bad one.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David (Battery Boy) Hawkins
Sent: October 25, 2006 6:36 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: RE: Bradley GTE Project
Don,
What Zivan reliability issues? The NGn's are rock solid. Are you referring
to the older model Kn's, which were European 200 + volt 50 Hz models that
would burn up on 120 volts?
BB
>From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<snippage>
>PFC chargers are in wide use and have high reliability. Some care
>needs to be taken when hooking up. Best bang for the buck. I did not
>choose Zivan's as there were a number of people with reliability issues.
<snippage>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or didn't?
Or are you a masochist ;-} ?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Bradley GTE Project
I researched through the EVDL list, looking at various comments from people
about chargers. There were a number of people who had problems with NGs,
and difficulty getting repairs. Although these comments may have been an
anomaly, I just didn't want to risk it. Maybe you have had a good
experience, I just did want to have a bad one.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David (Battery Boy) Hawkins
Sent: October 25, 2006 6:36 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: RE: Bradley GTE Project
Don,
What Zivan reliability issues? The NGn's are rock solid. Are you referring
to the older model Kn's, which were European 200 + volt 50 Hz models that
would burn up on 120 volts?
BB
>From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<snippage>
>PFC chargers are in wide use and have high reliability. Some care
>needs to be taken when hooking up. Best bang for the buck. I did not
>choose Zivan's as there were a number of people with reliability issues.
<snippage>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Wayland here, reporting from the top of the world in the Arctic! In one
of my most amazing adventures ever, I’ve been working all this week on
‘the slope’ as they say here, in Prudhoe Bay. More specifically, I’ve
been at the Conoco Phillips Kuparuk oil field camp. Kuparuk is the
nation’s second largest oil field and supplies crude into the Alaskan
Pipeline. How weird is this, that I, the electric car enviro-dude am
working for Conoco Phillips’ contract group teaching the ASRC (Arctic
Slope Regional Corporation) mechanics how to work on and service their
electric vehicles? I feel as though I’ve been in the den of the lion!
I got the call more than a month ago from our (NWHandling Systems)
Anchorage, Alaska branch about the training request, and at first didn’t
take it too seriously. Funny thing, with severe winter temps in the -40
to -60 degree range, they can’t use ICE type forklifts inside the shop
areas when they’ve got the bay doors shut tight to keep the cold and
polar bears outside, so the oil guys rely on electric vehicles to move
stuff around!
Things progressed, the plans were solidified, and off on a northern
flight plan I went. The second leg of the flight was something else!
Picture a specially modified 737-200 with high thrust engines, ski-like
gravel suspension shoes around the tires (they look like giant sewing
machine stitching foots) and special high pressure engine nozzles
suspending in front of the jet engines to blow away gravel from the
intakes. Picture descending through opaque cloud cover into a glistening
frozen wasteland with what looked like alien outposts here and there, at
150 mph landing speeds onto a 6000 foot long ice and gravel runway!
It’s been c-c-c-cold, icy, and in a word ‘white’. Earlier tonight I was
at the Arctic Ocean checking out the Kuparuk desalination plant, a place
where fierce Polar Bears hangout. I didn’t see any, but I did get up
close with a gorgeous Arctic Fox and managed to snap a few pictures of
this fascinating animal before it loped maybe 100 yards away as it
suddenly darted here, there, then here, then abruptly stopped and sat on
it’s haunches much as a dog would, with its head cocked just so. Moments
later some kind of rodent shot out of the snowy tundra like it had been
blasted out of a blow gun, maybe 6 feet in the air, and with deadly
accuracy the snow-white fox sprang straight up and intercepted the thing
into its jaws! The fox then came back down in a puff of powder, then
bounded off over the tundra with its dinner.
I’ll post more after I return home, but let it suffice to say I’m
impressed with the extreme care and positive regard for the Arctic
wildlife I witnessed first hand under Conoco Phillip’s watch.
The area is still pristine, wildlife flourishes, and great care has been
taken to leave as small a footprint on the environment as possible. They
even build ‘ice roads’ across the tundra that vanish in the summer to
reveal a thriving mantle showing no ill effects from man’s winter travels.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If your numbers are correct how does a car with a 100 mile range
consuming 15kw per hour at 60 mph get recharged overnight by a
receptacle outputting 1.9 kw continous?
Watts per hour is a watt hr.
10 kw for 60 mph driven for one hour is thus 10kw hrs of power.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 9:25 pm, Edward Ang wrote:
I posted in Dec 2003 to this group on the sudject of "Mind Your
Units". The message is available here.
http://www.evsource.com/articles/mind_your_units.php
Many people think that getting the units right is not important. I
personally think that it is the most important thing. At the very
least, it avoids many confusions.
On 10/26/06, David Roden (Akron OH USA) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 26 Oct 2006 at 12:17, GWMobile wrote:
How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
There are no such units as "Watts per hour." A Watt is a measure of
power rather
than of energy, so the term "Watts per hour" is meaningless.
Now, Watt-hours (note : NOT "watt/hours") are a measure of energy. A
Watt-hour is
the expenditure of one Watt for one hour. Watt-hours per hour makes
sense, but
Watt-hours per hour are ... just Watts. (Mathematically, the hours
cancel out.)
So, to answer the question I think you're asking - how much power an
EV uses on
the highway - that would be measured in Watts (or, more realistically,
kiloWatts). A
typical small car conversion will need 10-15kW to maintain 60 mph.
Very efficient 4-
wheelers will use somewhat less; trucks and large cars will use more,
perhaps
MUCH more.
To look at it another way, 200 to 250 Wh (watt-hours) per mile is
typical.
Someone else wrote :
This AM, I unplugged the charger and found I had used 5.12
Killowatts to recharge.
I think similar confusion is indicated here.
You may have used 5.12 kiloWatt HOURS (kWh) to recharge, but if you'd
used
5.12kW, you'd certainly have tripped the circuit breaker. A
conventional 120 volt
household receptacle can supply 2.4 kiloWatts for a few minutes (1.9kW
sustained).
Even a special 120 volt, 30 amp receptacle tops out at 3.6kW. A dryer
receptacle
(240 volts at 30 amps) could supply almost 5.8kW for an extended
period, but of
course you'd need a 240 volt charger to take advantage of that
capability.
There's a recurring confusion between power and energy, and a lack of
understanding
of units, on this list. Oh, heck, it's not just here, it's
everywhere. This widespread
misunderstanding is symptomatic of the abject failure of our nation's
schools to teach
basic science and math.
I'm lousy at explaining this stuff, so the above is probably hopeless
obscure.
Anybody working with EVs really needs to understand these concepts.
Anyone
know of a website which explains this in layman's terms?
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let's do the math:
100 mile range = 1h 40 min at 60 mph
15 kw drive x 1h 40 min = 25 kWh
120V 15A receptacle = max 1.8kW
25 kWh / 1.8 kW = 14 hours and some minutes.
Not very practical but is theoretically possible
(plug in at 6 PM and recharged around 8 AM)
but to be honest, for these kind of powers almost everyone
plugs into a 240V outlet.
Now there are not many EVers that need this amount of energy
every night and every day, so there are many who rely on
a 120V receptacle in the garage to recharge, simply because
they do not go 100 miles every day, so they need less energy.
When you do need the powerand look at 240V:
Most residences have 30A for dryer and 50A for range (cooking)
Let's limit to 30A at 240V = 7.2 kW
Now suddenly recharging could take as little as:
25 kWh / 7.2 kW = 3.5 hours
Note that actual recharging takes longer due to:
- inefficiency in the charger and battery so 25kWh from
batteries takes around 35 kWh from grid to recharge.
- last 20% charge needs to taper off in power to avoid
damage to the batteries, so charging to 80% goes with
max power, after that it is ever-reducing and practically
it reaches a point of "full enough", at that point a
smart battery charger will shut off.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on
freeway?
If your numbers are correct how does a car with a 100 mile range
consuming 15kw per hour at 60 mph get recharged overnight by a
receptacle outputting 1.9 kw continous?
Watts per hour is a watt hr.
10 kw for 60 mph driven for one hour is thus 10kw hrs of power.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 9:25 pm, Edward Ang wrote:
> I posted in Dec 2003 to this group on the sudject of "Mind Your
> Units". The message is available here.
>
> http://www.evsource.com/articles/mind_your_units.php
>
> Many people think that getting the units right is not important. I
> personally think that it is the most important thing. At the very
> least, it avoids many confusions.
>
> On 10/26/06, David Roden (Akron OH USA) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 26 Oct 2006 at 12:17, GWMobile wrote:
>>
>>> How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
>>
>> There are no such units as "Watts per hour." A Watt is a measure of
>> power rather
>> than of energy, so the term "Watts per hour" is meaningless.
>>
>> Now, Watt-hours (note : NOT "watt/hours") are a measure of energy. A
>> Watt-hour is
>> the expenditure of one Watt for one hour. Watt-hours per hour makes
>> sense, but
>> Watt-hours per hour are ... just Watts. (Mathematically, the hours
>> cancel out.)
>>
>> So, to answer the question I think you're asking - how much power an
>> EV uses on
>> the highway - that would be measured in Watts (or, more realistically,
>> kiloWatts). A
>> typical small car conversion will need 10-15kW to maintain 60 mph.
>> Very efficient 4-
>> wheelers will use somewhat less; trucks and large cars will use more,
>> perhaps
>> MUCH more.
>>
>> To look at it another way, 200 to 250 Wh (watt-hours) per mile is
>> typical.
>>
>> Someone else wrote :
>>
>>> This AM, I unplugged the charger and found I had used 5.12
>>> Killowatts to recharge.
>>
>> I think similar confusion is indicated here.
>>
>> You may have used 5.12 kiloWatt HOURS (kWh) to recharge, but if you'd
>> used
>> 5.12kW, you'd certainly have tripped the circuit breaker. A
>> conventional 120 volt
>> household receptacle can supply 2.4 kiloWatts for a few minutes (1.9kW
>> sustained).
>> Even a special 120 volt, 30 amp receptacle tops out at 3.6kW. A dryer
>> receptacle
>> (240 volts at 30 amps) could supply almost 5.8kW for an extended
>> period, but of
>> course you'd need a 240 volt charger to take advantage of that
>> capability.
>>
>> There's a recurring confusion between power and energy, and a lack of
>> understanding
>> of units, on this list. Oh, heck, it's not just here, it's
>> everywhere. This widespread
>> misunderstanding is symptomatic of the abject failure of our nation's
>> schools to teach
>> basic science and math.
>>
>> I'm lousy at explaining this stuff, so the above is probably hopeless
>> obscure.
>> Anybody working with EVs really needs to understand these concepts.
>> Anyone
>> know of a website which explains this in layman's terms?
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> President
> AIR Lab Corp
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
