EV Digest 6069
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Battery Chargers
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Battery Chargers
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) GM to Manufacture a Plug in Hybrid?
by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EV Transaxle, was: Mechanical control, was: EV controllers? the 4th
option...
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AGM battery charging
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Low Tech EV Drivetrains
by Geoff Linkleter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV Transaxle, was: Mechanical control, was: EV controllers? the 4th
option...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: AGM battery charging
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Chargers
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AGM battery charging
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
> If your numbers are correct how does a car with a 100 mile range
> consuming 15kw per hour at 60 mph get recharged overnight by a
> receptacle outputting 1.9 kw continous?
Every hour of charging would enable you to go 7.6 miles. Driving 100
miles every day would require 13.2 hours of charging. How long is
overnight for you?
>
> Watts per hour is a watt hr.
Watts per hour is W/hr, a nonsense unit for our purposes.
Watts for hours is W-hr, energy.
> 10 kw for 60 mph driven for one hour is thus 10kw hrs of power.
Correct. 5.26 hours of 1.9kw wall power would recharge that vehicle
from empty.
Cory Cross
>
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 9:25 pm, Edward Ang wrote:
>
>> I posted in Dec 2003 to this group on the sudject of "Mind Your
>> Units". The message is available here.
>>
>> http://www.evsource.com/articles/mind_your_units.php
>>
>> Many people think that getting the units right is not important. I
>> personally think that it is the most important thing. At the very
>> least, it avoids many confusions.
>>
>> On 10/26/06, David Roden (Akron OH USA) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 26 Oct 2006 at 12:17, GWMobile wrote:
>>>
>>>> How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
>>>
>>>
>>> There are no such units as "Watts per hour." A Watt is a measure of
>>> power rather
>>> than of energy, so the term "Watts per hour" is meaningless.
>>>
>>> Now, Watt-hours (note : NOT "watt/hours") are a measure of energy.
>>> A Watt-hour is
>>> the expenditure of one Watt for one hour. Watt-hours per hour makes
>>> sense, but
>>> Watt-hours per hour are ... just Watts. (Mathematically, the hours
>>> cancel out.)
>>>
>>> So, to answer the question I think you're asking - how much power an
>>> EV uses on
>>> the highway - that would be measured in Watts (or, more
>>> realistically, kiloWatts). A
>>> typical small car conversion will need 10-15kW to maintain 60 mph.
>>> Very efficient 4-
>>> wheelers will use somewhat less; trucks and large cars will use
>>> more, perhaps
>>> MUCH more.
>>>
>>> To look at it another way, 200 to 250 Wh (watt-hours) per mile is
>>> typical.
>>>
>>> Someone else wrote :
>>>
>>>> This AM, I unplugged the charger and found I had used 5.12
>>>> Killowatts to recharge.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think similar confusion is indicated here.
>>>
>>> You may have used 5.12 kiloWatt HOURS (kWh) to recharge, but if
>>> you'd used
>>> 5.12kW, you'd certainly have tripped the circuit breaker. A
>>> conventional 120 volt
>>> household receptacle can supply 2.4 kiloWatts for a few minutes
>>> (1.9kW sustained).
>>> Even a special 120 volt, 30 amp receptacle tops out at 3.6kW. A
>>> dryer receptacle
>>> (240 volts at 30 amps) could supply almost 5.8kW for an extended
>>> period, but of
>>> course you'd need a 240 volt charger to take advantage of that
>>> capability.
>>>
>>> There's a recurring confusion between power and energy, and a lack
>>> of understanding
>>> of units, on this list. Oh, heck, it's not just here, it's
>>> everywhere. This widespread
>>> misunderstanding is symptomatic of the abject failure of our
>>> nation's schools to teach
>>> basic science and math.
>>>
>>> I'm lousy at explaining this stuff, so the above is probably
>>> hopeless obscure.
>>> Anybody working with EVs really needs to understand these concepts.
>>> Anyone
>>> know of a website which explains this in layman's terms?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Edward Ang
>> President
>> AIR Lab Corp
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok
Another way.
How many watts does it take to maintain 60 mph at 100% motor efficiency
for say a honda accord.
Or another way what is the force in watts to maintain 60 mph with a
regular cd car with typical rolling resistance. Pick a number. Ignore
engine and transmission and battery losses.
The watts at the wheel.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 5:58 pm, Rush wrote:
That's a real hard question to answer with any validity exactly because
of the variables. What does the car weight, what is the CD, what is the
pack voltage, what size is the motor, what kind of car? There are so
many variables that any answer would be meaningless. It is exactly like
saying what is the gas mileage of a car at 60 mph. My diesel gets 18
mpg, a Prius gets 45 mpg. There is a big difference between the two....
Can you give us some more information so we can make an educated guess?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on
freeway?
How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
Obviously many variables like cd etc but just want a round number.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a battery charger like this, one with a switch that said AGM/Gel had
the same charging algorithm. Well they are not the same. If you have Gel
batteries they do not charge the same as an AGM, in fact charging a gel
battery with an AGM algorithm will ruin the battery. That is why I had to
find a charger which really knew the difference between the two and applied
the correct algorithm.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: October 24, 2006 9:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Chargers
Before I bought my smart charger, that says it will charge -Standard-,
-Deep Cycle- and -AGM,GEL- batteries, I call a Exide Tech for the data on
the Orbital deep cycle AGM batteries.
You will notice that the AGM,GEL are at the same selection on the Schumacher
Smart charger.
The tech at Exide said that the Orbital AGM batteries are a GEL battery.
Ok, So I bought one 12 volt to test for the next four years connected to my
5 kw inverter for my shop. The load on the battery will vary from 0 to over
200 amps at 12 VDC or 20 amps at 120 VAC.
This battery is charge with the AGM,GEL setting of the charger.
To duplicated the discharging and charging of this battery as in a EV, I
still have to install AC magnetic contactor with one power pole set for N.O.
and another set at N.C. So the charger is not on at the same time the load
is on the Inverter.
Right now, its acting as a float charger, and stand by if power is loss.
I see what happens after four years. I always test out different types of
batteries several years before I would use them in my EV.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Battery Chargers
> How do I "test" SLA/AGM or Gel batteries when I cannot access the acid?
> How much can a voltmeter tell me?
> Don B. Davidson III
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Battery Chargers
>
>
> Like Don Cameron says, you have to *test* the charger yourself to know
> what you're getting! All too often I find that the specs are optimistic,
> exaggerations, or outright lies. Maybe it used to work they way they
> claimed, but they cheapened the design and never updated the manual. Or,
> it never worked that way, and they just counted on customers to be so
> gullible that they'd never test it.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You do not need to test the acid to determine the state of charge:
- charge with a constant current until the battery reaches acceptance
voltage (for my gel bats this is 18Amps current until it reaches 2.3 V/cell
at 20 deg C)
- once this voltage is reached, keep charging at this voltage until this
current is below 0.1 Amps over one hour
Rich's PFC chargers can be set up to run this way (however they are not temp
compensated, so have to be re-adjusted manually each season). My Interacter
12V charger has this algorithm builtin and also has temperature
compensation.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Davidson
Sent: October 24, 2006 8:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Chargers
How do I "test" SLA/AGM or Gel batteries when I cannot access the acid? How
much can a voltmeter tell me?
Don B. Davidson III
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Battery Chargers
Like Don Cameron says, you have to *test* the charger yourself to know
what you're getting! All too often I find that the specs are optimistic,
exaggerations, or outright lies. Maybe it used to work they way they
claimed, but they cheapened the design and never updated the manual. Or,
it never worked that way, and they just counted on customers to be so
gullible that they'd never test it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I work for a local NBC affiliate broadcast television station. One segment of
the local newscast we air "Bloomberg Business Report" This morning's
Bloomberg Report stated General Motors plans to compete with Toyota and it's
High Mileage cars with a hybrid and I quote: "with a battery that recharges at
any outlet"
Don B Davidson III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wktv.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think that's already been answered - it would be in the neighborhood of
15 KW. A KW is a thousand watts.
And, watts is a unit of power, not force. Pounds, and newtons, are units of
force.
It may seem picky to keep correcting units, but, without the right units,
(and, understanding what these units mean), it would be difficult or
impossible to make good decisions on your car's design.
Watts - power. For DC: watts = voltage times current ( volts x amps). For
AC, it's a bit more complex.
Watt-hours - energy ( a watt of power drawn for one hour, or, 2 watts for
1/2 hours, etc) . This is the unit your electrical supplier
used to charge you. For example, I pay about 0.012 cents per watt-hour; or,
12 cents per KWH.
Volts - electromotive force. The flow analogy would be pressure in a pipe.
Amp - current, The flow analogy would be flow rate, or gallons per hour.
Phil
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on
freeway?
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:41:28 -0700
Ok
Another way.
How many watts does it take to maintain 60 mph at 100% motor efficiency for
say a honda accord.
Or another way what is the force in watts to maintain 60 mph with a regular
cd car with typical rolling resistance. Pick a number. Ignore engine and
transmission and battery losses.
The watts at the wheel.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 5:58 pm, Rush wrote:
That's a real hard question to answer with any validity exactly because of
the variables. What does the car weight, what is the CD, what is the pack
voltage, what size is the motor, what kind of car? There are so many
variables that any answer would be meaningless. It is exactly like saying
what is the gas mileage of a car at 60 mph. My diesel gets 18 mpg, a Prius
gets 45 mpg. There is a big difference between the two....
Can you give us some more information so we can make an educated guess?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on
freeway?
How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
Obviously many variables like cd etc but just want a round number.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
_________________________________________________________________
Try the next generation of search with Windows Live Search today!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV Transaxle
First of all I am designing the whole car for the purpose of a
buisness proposal to start an electric car company. It is probably
unubtainium, but I plan on working on the pieces and a prototype as I go.
The transaxle is is for my AC motor I am planning of making myself.
I have purchased a GM 4t65e HD automatic transmission from a wrecking
yard and the rebuild manual, Since all the parts for this unit are
available after market, I am not too worried about GM coming down on me.
I would make a case that can accept the final drive and would use the
park, and one of the gear reductions inside to get about 10:1 reduction.
I would also build a hollow shaft AC induction motor that is cooled by
the recirculating tranny fluid or water cooled. All this would fit in
the same length but a little bigger diameter case, accept the stock
axles and stock final drive and drop right into my N-body test bed.
The trick is to find decent design software that I can afford. I've got
an old copy of solidworks for the mechanical, but I need electronic and
magnetic simulation.
PS I left one off the list: Digital rearview mirrors. Call me crazy,
here is the thought. With these new headlights on some cars, headlights
in the mirrors is getting dangerous. People end up adjusting the mirrors
until they are useless. So.... we take two high quality cameras in
little domes on each side of the car, Nice and aero and we put a pair of
those new high brightness LCD screens like are on notebooks, only
smaller, in the dash. Now this thing would have to have backup power and
same assurances of operation but since a pixle can never be brighter
than maximum, glare from headlights would be minimized. Now we can add a
small amount of processing to the image like if we find 9 pixels next to
each other at full brightness, change them to black, this would give you
black circles for headlights with just the coronas around them showing.
Other features here are that the right hand mirror can be seen by the
driver without moving his.her head so much and even if the passenger
seat is full. A second set of cameras can be switched to for parking to.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks. Before I got this I started charging at 6A. Voltage went to 189.7 after
a couple hours. An hour later to 191.9. 20 mins to 192.1. 12 min later 193.3. 6
min after that it dropped to 192.0. 2 min after that it dropped to 191.9 and I
turned off the charger. David Roden didn't mention that the voltage would
decrease. (Somebody reportrd that their terminal voltage would be 186-193v so I
accepted the values I was seing as ok.)
FWIW, I took the car for a ride. Neat!
Thanx,
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:17:55 PM
Subject: RE: AGM battery charging
I have been charging my AGMs with full current (10A) until
they hit the point where they could start gassing at 13.6V
per battery which is 163V for your pack.
Hold it there until the amps are below 1A or the timer runs out
(I charge between 12 AM and 7 AM every night on lowest rate)
>From time to time you must do an equalization charge whereby
there is risk that the batteries vent (sealed battery is not
completely sealed)
and I take them up to 14.8V per battery, in your case 178V at
a constant current of 1/50 of capacity. That is 1.3A for you.
When the voltage has reached the max and current tapers down,
you can hold it there for some time like 1/2 hour and then
stop this charging pattern and go back to the settings for
the max current to 163V only for next night.
NOTE that regulators are a good idea on AGM as I have damaged
3 in my pack that apparently slowly drifted away from the others
or that happened to have a lower capacity.
I did get 3 replacements though, I still need to put them in
but I am driving the car every day and have not found time
yet. Range is down due to the 3 stinkers but still usable.
All other 23 batteries seem to like each other ;-)
I have 4800 miles on my pack now, since January.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Storm Connors
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AGM battery charging
Could someone tell me how to charge 144 volts of AGMs. I have a manual
charger. I can adjust the voltage and can measure the amps.
The batteries are 33Ah (20 hr rate) Dynasty UPS12-140FRs. I've buddied
pairs, so I have 24 of them installed. I realize I can't expect much range
and they are a long way from new, but after sitting for a year they were all
at 12.2-12.3v. Seems like they should prove the concept.
I learned from Mr. Roden to charged them until the voltage stops increasing
from hour to hour.Other than that, the archives are pretty confusing. What
I'd really like are some specifics like charge at x amps until ... then set
voltage at y until amps drops below z- or something like that.
I know that the best answer is buy a proper charger. I expect these
batteries won't last forever and they will probably be replaced with flooded
8v. Buying another charger doesn't seem a good option under the
circumstances. But I don't want to kill these either.
Thanks,
storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem is a 1231C is 1600 & the Zilla is 1850. There is no chance
I'd buy the Curtis at that price point. However there is no Zilla to be had
at that price right now. Hence the problem. Logisystems again is the only
source for something inbetween. Lawrence Rhodes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > This is exactly what I am proposing... High voltage
> > Curtii Killer, with some goodies, Not many.
>
> You certainly seem to have something definite in mind, but it sounds a
> lot more like a Zilla-wannabe than a Curtis Killer to me.
>
> I'm all for extending the voltage reach as high as possible, but not at
> the expense of pushing the cost so high that the people who would have
> bought a Curtis will continue to do so. IGBTs may not have the quantum
> cost steps with voltage that mOSFETs do, but they aren't the only
> voltage-dependant parts, and cost of all of these things still
> increases with voltage.
>
> You suggest that you'd need to get about $2k/unit, and there'd be mark
> up on top, so its sounding like a cost in the $2500-3000 range, which
> I'm afraid means its really not a threat to Curtis business at all.
>
> The key to you having any success with the product you describe seems to
> lie with Otmar being unable to keep up with orders indefinitely, and
> you being able to steal enough of his Z1K customers to make it worth
> your while.
>
> I really don't see that many Curtis buyers paying $1k more for a
> controller, and those that would will consider carefully when the same
> money buys a university-educated lizard instead of a dumb as a box of
> rocks model with less power and fewer features.
>
> > The point is a easy to buld easy to service, simple power
> > stage simple analog controller that just gets the job done.
>
> Sounds great!
>
> > You want software? Fine You write the code and support it.
> > By the time most folks get the code solid enough for
> > shipping, I will be shipping about the 250the unit.
>
> Analog is fine as long as you're content with a dumb as a box of rocks
> device. Building it on a micro lets you offer it as dumb as you like
> to start with, and then add all the bells and whistles you or your
> customers want later far more cheaply than if you try to stick with all
> analog circuitry.
>
> > > If you absolutely don't want the headache/dev effort of
> > > supporting comms, at least have the decency to provide
> > > thumbwheels or indexed rotary switches, etc. for positive
> > > setting of current limit(s) and RPM limits.
>
> > Clearly NOT a chance. All the stuff is a bugger to keep
> > clean and water resistant.
>
> An indexed rotary switch is no different to protect than a 25-turn pot.
> Thumbwheels you might have a valid argument against, but then again you
> can stick them behind a lexan or Al plate just as easily and
> effectively as anything else.
>
> > You are clearly thinking about digital controls.
>
> Not at all. If you can set current limit with a pot, then you can also
> arrange the circuit so that by default it is set to min amps and by
> turning either a rotary switch or indexed single-turn pot you parallel
> additional resistance in the appropriate spot to increase the current
> limit.
>
> You could certainly use a binary encoded rotary switch to control a
> digital pot and have digital control without a micro, but that sounds
> more expensive than necessary to me.
>
> > > I think you're missing the boat with encouraging people to
> > > use a PB6. The pot is junk, and at $75 a pop there should
> > > be a good revenue opportunity here by offering your own
> > > competitively-priced version based on a quality pot and
> > > intended to survive the automotive underhood environment.
> >
> > Yup but I don't care where you get a 10k pot.
> > A PB6 is cheap and they are every where. Multi sourced,
> > and well. What else matters?
>
> Well, there's the small matter of $75 for a crappy pot that won't remain
> reliable under the hood of a car for very long. I personally don't
> consider $75 for this cheap; $75 for a simple 5k potbox that would last
> reliably would be a great deal.
>
> > Oh you mean I should hand make somthing out of PVC pipe and
> > old Phone wire?? Been there done that.
>
> Nope, but those were a damn nice throttle 'pot' setup. Nothing to wear
> out, and easy to connect to any throttle cable and adjust for throw,
> etc.
>
> > Or do you mean a $500 throttle pot from a quality ICE doner rig?
> > that might meet spec..
>
> That's more along the lines of what I was thinking, but they're a hell
> of a lot cheaper than that even new. Some quality sealed pots intended
> for automotive duty were discussed on list recently; I think they might
> have been in the $40 ballpark and I'm sure someone looking build
> hundreds of controllers could get a decent pricebreak even on quantity
> 100 purchases.
>
> > Hey the EV world uses PB6 pot boxes... I am taking the easy
> > way our here. Heck Otmar does.
>
> Hey its your call, but I think there'd be a certain satisfaction to
> building a PB6 replacement suitable for the on-road environment and
> putting $25-30 in *your* pocket everytime Otmar, Curtis, or you sell a
> controller to an on-road application.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are sure that you have really thought this through? While some of these may be
low tech concepts the detail design and manufacturing is way beyond the
capability of most ev converters.
Designing and making gear teeth for anything is a substantial and expensive
undertaking, even designing and making a set of friction drive brackets for
anything with steering and suspension is hard (as well as being drastically
inefficient).
Manufacture of even the most straightforward custom transmission, for example
like the picture on the right here .......
http://www.avt.uk.com/page32.html
.... requires a sufficiently high degree of accuracy to be reliable that it is
difficult.
The low tech solution for a conversion is the one that most people use, i.e.
retain existing trans.
High tech trans solution would be
Hub motors
For DC motor : Transverse 2 speed semi auto directly driving crown wheel of dif.
For AC motor : Fixed reduction ratio transverse trans directly driving crown
wheel of dif.
Vectrix is a good example of some one who has actually thought about and
invested in ev transmission design.
My "2-penn'orth"!!
Geoff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get a spam free email account - Visit http://www.bluebottle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Adept Scientific (www.adeptscientific.com) makes very afordable and capable EDA
software. You will find their Electronics Design and sumulation software under
the Products tab.
Regards,
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: EV Transaxle, was: Mechanical control, was: EV controllers? the 4th
option...
EV Transaxle
>... The trick is to find decent design software that I can afford. I've got
> an old copy of solidworks for the mechanical, but I need electronic and
> magnetic simulation.
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free
AOL Mail and more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From what you describe, I think you have only completed the bulk stage and
not done the absorption stage of charging. If this is the case, your
batteries are not fully charged. Are you able to measure the charge current
as well as the voltage?
Once the batteries reach their acceptance voltage, then it needs to be kept
at this voltage until the current drops below 0.5amps over an hour. Is your
manual charger just a "bad boy" transformer charger, or can it do CC or CV?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Storm Connors
Sent: October 27, 2006 6:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AGM battery charging
Thanks. Before I got this I started charging at 6A. Voltage went to 189.7
after a couple hours. An hour later to 191.9. 20 mins to 192.1. 12 min later
193.3. 6 min after that it dropped to 192.0. 2 min after that it dropped to
191.9 and I turned off the charger. David Roden didn't mention that the
voltage would decrease. (Somebody reportrd that their terminal voltage would
be 186-193v so I accepted the values I was seing as ok.)
FWIW, I took the car for a ride. Neat!
Thanx,
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:17:55 PM
Subject: RE: AGM battery charging
I have been charging my AGMs with full current (10A) until they hit the
point where they could start gassing at 13.6V per battery which is 163V for
your pack.
Hold it there until the amps are below 1A or the timer runs out (I charge
between 12 AM and 7 AM every night on lowest rate)
>From time to time you must do an equalization charge whereby
there is risk that the batteries vent (sealed battery is not completely
sealed) and I take them up to 14.8V per battery, in your case 178V at a
constant current of 1/50 of capacity. That is 1.3A for you.
When the voltage has reached the max and current tapers down, you can hold
it there for some time like 1/2 hour and then stop this charging pattern and
go back to the settings for the max current to 163V only for next night.
NOTE that regulators are a good idea on AGM as I have damaged
3 in my pack that apparently slowly drifted away from the others or that
happened to have a lower capacity.
I did get 3 replacements though, I still need to put them in but I am
driving the car every day and have not found time yet. Range is down due to
the 3 stinkers but still usable.
All other 23 batteries seem to like each other ;-) I have 4800 miles on my
pack now, since January.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Storm Connors
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AGM battery charging
Could someone tell me how to charge 144 volts of AGMs. I have a manual
charger. I can adjust the voltage and can measure the amps.
The batteries are 33Ah (20 hr rate) Dynasty UPS12-140FRs. I've buddied
pairs, so I have 24 of them installed. I realize I can't expect much range
and they are a long way from new, but after sitting for a year they were all
at 12.2-12.3v. Seems like they should prove the concept.
I learned from Mr. Roden to charged them until the voltage stops increasing
from hour to hour.Other than that, the archives are pretty confusing. What
I'd really like are some specifics like charge at x amps until ... then set
voltage at y until amps drops below z- or something like that.
I know that the best answer is buy a proper charger. I expect these
batteries won't last forever and they will probably be replaced with flooded
8v. Buying another charger doesn't seem a good option under the
circumstances. But I don't want to kill these either.
Thanks,
storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Like Don Cameron says, you have to *test* the charger yourself to know
what you're getting! All too often I find that the specs are optimistic,
exaggerations, or outright lies.
I have a e meter with the data collection computer hook up which I use to
see what different chargers are really doing . I logs and graifs volts amps
and ah so you can see what they really are doing , and also see what the
batteries are doing over the whole charge cycle . That 12v Schummocker (
miss spelled , but you know the one ) that is called the smart charger ,
lookes like is just reaches a peak , like 16v / a few minits of this then
shuts off for a few minits that back on , It dose put out full amp till
about 14.8v or so , been awhile , don't remember all the details ,
Bring the controller that will make my tires sing
Forget that long va ca son ning
There is a stack of orderings
That's how the EV's gets in --
steve Clunn.
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
KTA iists a 1221C at $975, the 1231C at $1425, and the Z1K-LV at $1975.
So, the entry-level for a road-going controller is $975, not $1600.
Phil
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 06:27:35 -0700
The problem is a 1231C is 1600 & the Zilla is 1850. There is no
chance
I'd buy the Curtis at that price point. However there is no Zilla to be
had
at that price right now. Hence the problem. Logisystems again is the only
source for something inbetween. Lawrence Rhodes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > This is exactly what I am proposing... High voltage
> > Curtii Killer, with some goodies, Not many.
>
> You certainly seem to have something definite in mind, but it sounds a
> lot more like a Zilla-wannabe than a Curtis Killer to me.
>
> I'm all for extending the voltage reach as high as possible, but not at
> the expense of pushing the cost so high that the people who would have
> bought a Curtis will continue to do so. IGBTs may not have the quantum
> cost steps with voltage that mOSFETs do, but they aren't the only
> voltage-dependant parts, and cost of all of these things still
> increases with voltage.
>
> You suggest that you'd need to get about $2k/unit, and there'd be mark
> up on top, so its sounding like a cost in the $2500-3000 range, which
> I'm afraid means its really not a threat to Curtis business at all.
>
> The key to you having any success with the product you describe seems to
> lie with Otmar being unable to keep up with orders indefinitely, and
> you being able to steal enough of his Z1K customers to make it worth
> your while.
>
> I really don't see that many Curtis buyers paying $1k more for a
> controller, and those that would will consider carefully when the same
> money buys a university-educated lizard instead of a dumb as a box of
> rocks model with less power and fewer features.
>
> > The point is a easy to buld easy to service, simple power
> > stage simple analog controller that just gets the job done.
>
> Sounds great!
>
> > You want software? Fine You write the code and support it.
> > By the time most folks get the code solid enough for
> > shipping, I will be shipping about the 250the unit.
>
> Analog is fine as long as you're content with a dumb as a box of rocks
> device. Building it on a micro lets you offer it as dumb as you like
> to start with, and then add all the bells and whistles you or your
> customers want later far more cheaply than if you try to stick with all
> analog circuitry.
>
> > > If you absolutely don't want the headache/dev effort of
> > > supporting comms, at least have the decency to provide
> > > thumbwheels or indexed rotary switches, etc. for positive
> > > setting of current limit(s) and RPM limits.
>
> > Clearly NOT a chance. All the stuff is a bugger to keep
> > clean and water resistant.
>
> An indexed rotary switch is no different to protect than a 25-turn pot.
> Thumbwheels you might have a valid argument against, but then again you
> can stick them behind a lexan or Al plate just as easily and
> effectively as anything else.
>
> > You are clearly thinking about digital controls.
>
> Not at all. If you can set current limit with a pot, then you can also
> arrange the circuit so that by default it is set to min amps and by
> turning either a rotary switch or indexed single-turn pot you parallel
> additional resistance in the appropriate spot to increase the current
> limit.
>
> You could certainly use a binary encoded rotary switch to control a
> digital pot and have digital control without a micro, but that sounds
> more expensive than necessary to me.
>
> > > I think you're missing the boat with encouraging people to
> > > use a PB6. The pot is junk, and at $75 a pop there should
> > > be a good revenue opportunity here by offering your own
> > > competitively-priced version based on a quality pot and
> > > intended to survive the automotive underhood environment.
> >
> > Yup but I don't care where you get a 10k pot.
> > A PB6 is cheap and they are every where. Multi sourced,
> > and well. What else matters?
>
> Well, there's the small matter of $75 for a crappy pot that won't remain
> reliable under the hood of a car for very long. I personally don't
> consider $75 for this cheap; $75 for a simple 5k potbox that would last
> reliably would be a great deal.
>
> > Oh you mean I should hand make somthing out of PVC pipe and
> > old Phone wire?? Been there done that.
>
> Nope, but those were a damn nice throttle 'pot' setup. Nothing to wear
> out, and easy to connect to any throttle cable and adjust for throw,
> etc.
>
> > Or do you mean a $500 throttle pot from a quality ICE doner rig?
> > that might meet spec..
>
> That's more along the lines of what I was thinking, but they're a hell
> of a lot cheaper than that even new. Some quality sealed pots intended
> for automotive duty were discussed on list recently; I think they might
> have been in the $40 ballpark and I'm sure someone looking build
> hundreds of controllers could get a decent pricebreak even on quantity
> 100 purchases.
>
> > Hey the EV world uses PB6 pot boxes... I am taking the easy
> > way our here. Heck Otmar does.
>
> Hey its your call, but I think there'd be a certain satisfaction to
> building a PB6 replacement suitable for the on-road environment and
> putting $25-30 in *your* pocket everytime Otmar, Curtis, or you sell a
> controller to an on-road application.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
_________________________________________________________________
All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is a war surplus (actually 2 of them in series) which have huge multitap
transformers. I can set the voltage. The amperage adjusts itself. I guess my
concern is the drop in voltage. I did not expect it and don't have any idea
what would cause it.
Could the acceptance voltage be as high as 193.3v in a 144v pack?
Thanx,
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 9:53:33 AM
Subject: RE: AGM battery charging
>From what you describe, I think you have only completed the bulk stage and
not done the absorption stage of charging. If this is the case, your
batteries are not fully charged. Are you able to measure the charge current
as well as the voltage?
Once the batteries reach their acceptance voltage, then it needs to be kept
at this voltage until the current drops below 0.5amps over an hour. Is your
manual charger just a "bad boy" transformer charger, or can it do CC or CV?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Storm Connors
Sent: October 27, 2006 6:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AGM battery charging
Thanks. Before I got this I started charging at 6A. Voltage went to 189.7
after a couple hours. An hour later to 191.9. 20 mins to 192.1. 12 min later
193.3. 6 min after that it dropped to 192.0. 2 min after that it dropped to
191.9 and I turned off the charger. David Roden didn't mention that the
voltage would decrease. (Somebody reportrd that their terminal voltage would
be 186-193v so I accepted the values I was seing as ok.)
FWIW, I took the car for a ride. Neat!
Thanx,
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:17:55 PM
Subject: RE: AGM battery charging
I have been charging my AGMs with full current (10A) until they hit the
point where they could start gassing at 13.6V per battery which is 163V for
your pack.
Hold it there until the amps are below 1A or the timer runs out (I charge
between 12 AM and 7 AM every night on lowest rate)
>From time to time you must do an equalization charge whereby
there is risk that the batteries vent (sealed battery is not completely
sealed) and I take them up to 14.8V per battery, in your case 178V at a
constant current of 1/50 of capacity. That is 1.3A for you.
When the voltage has reached the max and current tapers down, you can hold
it there for some time like 1/2 hour and then stop this charging pattern and
go back to the settings for the max current to 163V only for next night.
NOTE that regulators are a good idea on AGM as I have damaged
3 in my pack that apparently slowly drifted away from the others or that
happened to have a lower capacity.
I did get 3 replacements though, I still need to put them in but I am
driving the car every day and have not found time yet. Range is down due to
the 3 stinkers but still usable.
All other 23 batteries seem to like each other ;-) I have 4800 miles on my
pack now, since January.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Storm Connors
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AGM battery charging
Could someone tell me how to charge 144 volts of AGMs. I have a manual
charger. I can adjust the voltage and can measure the amps.
The batteries are 33Ah (20 hr rate) Dynasty UPS12-140FRs. I've buddied
pairs, so I have 24 of them installed. I realize I can't expect much range
and they are a long way from new, but after sitting for a year they were all
at 12.2-12.3v. Seems like they should prove the concept.
I learned from Mr. Roden to charged them until the voltage stops increasing
from hour to hour.Other than that, the archives are pretty confusing. What
I'd really like are some specifics like charge at x amps until ... then set
voltage at y until amps drops below z- or something like that.
I know that the best answer is buy a proper charger. I expect these
batteries won't last forever and they will probably be replaced with flooded
8v. Buying another charger doesn't seem a good option under the
circumstances. But I don't want to kill these either.
Thanks,
storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A suggestion from the repercussions on the Curtis ('Cursit' was the cute
name that got picked up)
discussion was that I just select an Alltrax 7245 - 72 volts, 450 amps.
Actually, I have one for another low voltage project, almost ready to
deploy, etc.
What about putting two of these controllers in series, then I've got
-144 v
- 450 amps
- no squeal
- current limit programmable
- a generally most excellent Damon Crocket product (as the rep I've
heard/read about;
have yet to see a thread on 'AllTrash' controllers, etc. ...)
Even a 72 volter, I suppose, with using a 4 or 5 gears, might that allow
you decent top speeds?
(just throwing it out for guys who do these calculations in their heads)
though I saw one Saturn conversion a few months back with a 72 volt, Alltrax
system that had top speed advertised as something like 45 -50 mph - so I'm
guessing that's probably typical. I would like to at least be able to get
on the highway once in a while, I think.
Thanks,
Seth
((have a nice day, even to all those Curtis people, whoever ye may be ...
aargh!)
--- End Message ---
