EV Digest 6072
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: NiMH batteries from GM Ovonics or Panasonic used in EV1, S10 and
Ranger etc.
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Electronic Circuit Design and Simulation Software
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: I can build your controller
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: NiMH batteries from GM Ovonics or Panasonic used in EV1, S10 and
Ranger etc.
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: GM to Manufacture a Plug in Hybrid?
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) brrr cold zero F today
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: I can build your controller
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: I can build your controller
by "torich1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: I can build your controller
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'd consider a 144V pack and a single 7245. Arrange the pack as 2 72V
strings and parallel them at lower speeds so the controller runs of the
72V pack and all batteries are discharged evenly. Above some speed,
switch the packs in series and leave the controller connected across
only the top 72V segment. This allows the controller to vary voltage to
the motor between 72V and 144V.
Wow, this is a cool idea. I have been wanting to try a higher voltage on my
motorcycle. Since my controller is good for 24 - 48 volts, I could use this
techique and try up to 96 volts without buying a new controller.
Damon
_________________________________________________________________
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then map the best
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is waht I was thinking also, there may be a cell or two dead and with
rearrangement, some work can be done.
What BMS module did you use? Any details will be welcome, thanks
JJ
> I bought 18 of these M-95 from a Ranger pack that were considered dead.
> It took a lot of time but I now have 16 good packs that test to around
> 90ah at C/2.
>
> The battery pack can be rebuilt if you have spare cells. Most of the
> time there was only one cell that died on each battery.
>
> Too bad there are not a lot of these around. Someone sold 17 of these
> on ebay for $5500 just last week.
>
> Ezesport
>
>
> Death to All Spammers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Well, that don't make these anymore, so any you find (and where the
> heck
>> did you find any?) are probably 6-8 years old and may very well be
> near
>> the end of their useful life.
>> Personally, I'd prefer ones that have been tested to insure they
> still
>> work. The untested, uncharged ones might yield somewhere in the
>> neighborhood of zero.
>>
>
> But think of what a find if you discovered a cache of several hundred
> Panasonic 95AH cells - even if untested and never charged, it would be
> worth evaluating each one for potential use, since they aren't suppose
> to have the same calender issues. Then again, it's most likely a
> pipedream.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call
> rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't SPICE free and good?
Have you looked at it?
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:35 pm, Chet Fields wrote:
Hello all,
All this discussion about building your own controllers and chargers,
etc. has
me wanting to try and build something myself even if it is for nothing
more
than to have more appreciation for those that are really doing it.
I was hoping I could get some recommendations on relatively inexpensive
(not
completely professional) yet decent (feature rich and easy to use)
circuit
design and simulation software. I have done a little searching and
found some
free and shareware stuff and other demo software. However, the
shareware stuff
is just too complicated to compile and setup and the software for the
demo
versions is a little expensive. I would like something like the
Electronic
Workbench from a company in Canada but maybe not so feature rich. I'd
be
willing to pay up to about $100.
I'm not really interested (at least not yet) in PCB layout and such.
Just CAD
and perhaps a little simulation and testing.
Regards,
Chet
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I asked Alltrax if I could do this a year or two ago. They said no, because
the controller would "see" more than 72 volts. I didn't understand that at the
time (and probably still don't) but my guess is that this means that the
voltage in the output stages of the controller would be over the 100 volt
rating of the diodes, etc. in the Altrax controller, and they would therefore
fail.
Seth Myers wrote:
> A suggestion from the repercussions on the Curtis ('Cursit'
> was the cute name that got picked up) discussion was that
> I just select an Alltrax 7245 - 72 volts, 450 amps.
> What about putting two of these controllers in series,
I'd consider a 144V pack and a single 7245. Arrange the pack as 2 72V
strings and parallel them at lower speeds so the controller runs of the
72V pack and all batteries are discharged evenly. Above some speed,
switch the packs in series and leave the controller connected across
only the top 72V segment. This allows the controller to vary voltage to
the motor between 72V and 144V.
There may be issues with how well the current limit would work with the
controller 'floating' at 72V; if I recall correctly, Lee Hart described
this sort of arrangement in the past, but using a Curtis.
You might also simply consider a 1231C. Yes, it will whine at light
throttle, but in my experience this is limited to very slow creeping
around speeds, but it will give you 550A briefly when cool and is rated
for up to 144V packs.
Cheers,
Roger.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(that was perhaps a fantasyland speculation (I can trash my own email, plus
this way I get one more response, making my thread look that much more
respectable : ^ ) ), esp. as programmable current ratings up to 450 Amps is
probably not a real necessity for any sizable type of ev car market
demographic)
What might be an interesting combination, however, could be a parallel
Alltrax 7245 setup,
perhaps with a hybrid battery pack, as I've heard has been mentioned at
battery conferences before: a higher power battery pack in parallel with an
energy battery pack.
- The 'energy' batteries, say the economical flooded lead acids, have
current limited to say 200, 250, 300 amps to ensure gentle treatment and
long life,
while
- a more advanced (and expensive) battery pack (probably Lithium or NiMH
was originally discussed, though I am thinking something like AGM's (or even
Gels?) here) are used for higher
power/current draws.
So, you could try to get the long life and range out of (the flooded
PbA) part of your pack, and some extra current/performance out of the other
(though you've now got a messload of batteries, maybe best for a pickup
(with some pickup) conversion or something)
(and the question 'why not just put in 300 v of agm and get a Zilla
1kehv or something comes to mind ...)
So, say a 72 volt system (if you can get reasonable top speed; maybe 96
volts) with 6 volt golf cart batteries, or similar, combined with 6 x 12
volt Optimas or other agms.
The 'energy battery' (gc/6v) Alltrax controller set for something like
250-300 amps, while the
'power battery' Alltrax, in parallel, is set for 300 or 400 amps, amperage
that agm street rod people have said is quite healthy for agms - now with
2x$700 aprox (Alltrax) you can have up to a 900 Amp controller, more likely
600-700 effective amps.
Does just setting current draw limits (simplistically and quite
admittedly ignorantly) like this work? I suppose the agm batteries are
lower internal resistance, would get drained first naturally in such a
parallel setup (unless an energy wasting extra resistance was perhaps
inserted), perhaps contra the design aim.
(my inspiration for this line of thought was actually inspired by
ultracap literature, where Maxwell claimed in some news release that they
got 33 full charges out of lead acid batteries
in a parallel system with ultracaps doing peak shaving, whereas non u-cap'ed
PbA got only 13 charges (no idea how they got these numbers (would think
they're more like 500 cycles or something, maybe just measured equal levels
of battery degradation or something?); Trinity AFS (?) working on phev
drivetrain, claims to have patented something similar with lower cost energy
lithium batteries along with ultracaps (recent evworld article).
Disadvantages: need 2 chargers (different types of batteries), probably
two emeters, or some switch to read the different packs, and of course the
whole 'does it actually work' aspect.
I suppose worse yet, likely an infeasible implementation, would be to
put the 2 (dissimilar battery) packs in series, to get 144 volts - higher
resistance batteries get drained first (right?), but Kirchoff's current law
seems to be against different currents being supplied from two different
series 'elements' (battery packs).
Well, back to lala land (if I've not been demonstrably there already) for me
now ...
(and figuring any question-posing credibility I might have otherwise been
aspiring towards has now been totally blown : - ( )
Seth
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:18 AM
Subject: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
A suggestion from the repercussions on the Curtis ('Cursit' was the cute
name that got picked up)
discussion was that I just select an Alltrax 7245 - 72 volts, 450 amps.
Actually, I have one for another low voltage project, almost ready to
deploy, etc.
What about putting two of these controllers in series, then I've got
-144 v
- 450 amps
- no squeal
- current limit programmable
- a generally most excellent Damon Crocket product (as the rep I've
heard/read about;
have yet to see a thread on 'AllTrash' controllers, etc. ...)
Even a 72 volter, I suppose, with using a 4 or 5 gears, might that
allow you decent top speeds?
(just throwing it out for guys who do these calculations in their heads)
though I saw one Saturn conversion a few months back with a 72 volt,
Alltrax system that had top speed advertised as something like 45 -50
mph - so I'm guessing that's probably typical. I would like to at least
be able to get on the highway once in a while, I think.
Thanks,
Seth
((have a nice day, even to all those Curtis people, whoever ye may be ...
aargh!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to say I take my hat off to the guys that are making quality products
available, but when you go to order one and there is a backlog when you need
the controller or charger, etc., you have to look at every alternative. It is
also hard for some of us who aren't rich and are trying to do a project to put
out $2000 for a controller, motor, charger, etc.
So who knows? Maybe import controllers, chargers, etc., could make plug-in EVs
more available to a larger population at less cost?
BTW I like my Chinese Engine Lathe! It works great!
In my case I am ready to buy a controller and hear they are not available, so I
will focus on something else in the project. I have had to struggle with
designing and machining my motor adapter because nobody who IS supplying the
market liked my automatic transmission. Yes, sorry to say we have some pretty
bull-headed types that INSIST your project is going to fail if you do something
they don't recommend!
Sorry guys, you are dead wrong and you WILL see me going down the road in my
Saab in the near future!...yes automatic, air conditioning and full power too!
The motor will soon be in and that part behind, with some pain of course but
with the reward of saving a lot of money and "doing it myself". As a EE I too
can sit down and come up with a controller if I want to spend the time
designing it. The problem is it might take 5 years to get my car done!
Just my two cents worth....and a bunch more saved by doing it myself!
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www. saabrina.blogspot.com
---- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Aw come on Dave. Someone send him a set of schematics and let him
> discover on his own that it takes more than a set of schemtics to build an
> EV size motor controller ;-)
>
> > Josh wrote :
> >
> >> I work in the consumer electronics industry ... I have visited
> >> many factories in China and work closely with overseas
> >> manufacturers and suppliers.
> >
> > Warning, rant ahead!
> >
> > Great, just what we need, twenty cent an hour Chinese sweatshop labor to
> > bury the good folks on the list who make their living, such as it is,
> > building high quality EV components.
> >
> > Josh, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since (I think) you're a
> > newbie
> > here, but how about a little concern for guys like Rich and Otmar, our
> > friends who work with list members to build what they want and produce a
> > high quality product? Rich at least has gone into debt to do this.
> >
> > These guys are producing handbuilt products at mass-production prices, and
> > damn reasonable ones at that. I doubt that they're getting rich on it,
> > but
> > they are doing us a real service. Take their living away from them and
> > you
> > can forget them ever taking part in EVs as a business again.
> >
> > Sorry if I seem a bit annoyed about this - I am. If we had nobody at all
> > building the components we need, it would be a different matter, but we
> > are
> > lucky to have people who do - and whom we can literally call up for help
> > and
> > support (try that with the guys in China).
> >
> > I don't want a fight, and I don't want to seem ungrateful, but I really
> > wish
> > you would take your Chinese manufacturing connections somewhere else and
> > use
> > them for something else.
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Assistant Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> > To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> > the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Would a couple of these work well for a PWM controller?
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/7738/ste110ns20fd.pdf
This is a single MOSFET in an Isotop package. The Isotop is a great
package (screw terminals, isolated base, etc.) but expensive. This
particular MOSFET is too small for a car-sized controller (Rds=0.024
ohms max means just 21 amps for a 1v drop), but ten in parallel would
outperform a Curtis 1231C.
Here are examples of the kind of dual MOSFET module I was thinking of:
http://www.ixys.net/l401.pdf (100v, 680a)
http://www.ixys.net/l389.pdf (300v, 280a)
Or two of these (one for pullup, one for pulldown):
http://www.ixys.net/l410.pdf (200v, 580a)
Yup... at $261 each, two modules breaks about even with ten ISOTOPs at
$42 each. What's the max pulse amperage of the modules, it doesn't list
that in the spec.
What's pullup, pulldown?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Nimh are still near my bench with big lab power supplies and lab data
acquisition equipment and load banks. My auto EV project are not up and
running yet.
I may end up using an Agilent 34970 to monitor the temperature and control
the constant current charger. I have a Link10 with RS232 to give me some
additional data but I think temperature monitoring may be the best way to
charge these batteries. Right now I charge at 20 amps until I see a rise in
temperature, then I back off the current for a top off period. If you had a
basic constant current charger and a stand alone Omega multi-input temperature
alarm, you could probably charge just fine. A backup timer would be helpful.
Maybe a low constant current equalize every once in a while.
I am sure the RAV4 EV has a good charge algorithm. Anyone know what they do?
If you avoid the reverse polarity on discharge and overheating due to
overcharging, then these cells will last a real long time. Mine are at least 6
years old and probably quite a few hundred cycles, yet they seem to give me
almost a full rated charge once I removed the bad cells. I am sure that a few
more cells may fail after a few hundred more cycles but if they get swapped
out, the pack will be good for many more cycles.
I have heard of up to 100,000 miles on these batteries with 80% of capacity.
IMHO, the 80% capacity can be kept higher if only a few bad cells are replaced.
The majority of the cells seem to be at full capacity.
The Prius has NiMh batteries that are said to last longer than the vehicle.
They can do this by keeping the battery operating in a safe middle zone, never
discharge too much, never overcharge too much. Adding the EV switch to a Prius
will reduce the life of the battery considerably as you are now discharging
much further and risking a cell reversal.
Ezesport
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That is waht I was thinking also, there may be a cell or two dead and with
rearrangement, some work can be done.
What BMS module did you use? Any details will be welcome, thanks
JJ
> I bought 18 of these M-95 from a Ranger pack that were considered dead.
> It took a lot of time but I now have 16 good packs that test to around
> 90ah at C/2.
>
> The battery pack can be rebuilt if you have spare cells. Most of the
> time there was only one cell that died on each battery.
>
> Too bad there are not a lot of these around. Someone sold 17 of these
> on ebay for $5500 just last week.
>
> Ezesport
>
>
> Death to All Spammers wrote:
> > Well, that don't make these anymore, so any you find (and where the
> heck
>> did you find any?) are probably 6-8 years old and may very well be
> near
>> the end of their useful life.
>> Personally, I'd prefer ones that have been tested to insure they
> still
>> work. The untested, uncharged ones might yield somewhere in the
>> neighborhood of zero.
>>
>
> But think of what a find if you discovered a cache of several hundred
> Panasonic 95AH cells - even if untested and never charged, it would be
> worth evaluating each one for potential use, since they aren't suppose
> to have the same calender issues. Then again, it's most likely a
> pipedream.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call
> rates.
---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aZo7hRqpylPI&refer=news
"GM has cut $9 billion from its annual spending this year
by limiting health-care benefits, firing white-collar employees
and getting union workers to retire early and accept buyouts."
So the new vapourware is funded on the backs of senior
line workers? Kick the old worn-out guys out so we don't
have to pay for their medical bills, hire a bunch of young
kids so we can abuse them, and put them all to work
making products we'll sell at a premium because every
body wants to be green. Sheesh.
I thought I just saw something go by from an admin
about keeping people working in the industry.
Doesn't look too much different from just off-
shoring the whole process.
Ford's gonna make out like bandits on this deal -- they
licenced a bunch of R&D from Toyota, then sold back
a bunch of R&D to Toyota, so both companies win. GM
is going to be wondering where the bus went.
With the pressure on to produce plug-in hybrids Ford
and Toyota are going to be first to market, I think.
Honda still seems to be woofing up the wrong tree
with the new Civic -- you *can* drive the thing in
electric only mode but it still has to spin the engine.
Wasteful.
Chuck Hays
Kamloops, BC
_________________________________________________________________
Buy, Load, Play. The new Sympatico / MSN Music Store works seamlessly with
Windows Media Player. Just Click PLAY.
http://musicstore.sympatico.msn.ca/content/viewer.aspx?cid=SMS_Sept192006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No idea what you're describing, but no motor can ever put out more power
than it takes in. There have been countless people who claim they can,
they've all been outright frauds or simply mistaken nut cases. It's not
just that we've never seen anybody do it- the laws of electromagnetics
as well as many other aspects of physical laws clearly shows you can't
get out more power than you put in.
This is as odd as saying I've discovered a way to put an apple in a box,
flip the box over, and there will now be two identical apples in there.
And my box can keep making apples as often as you flip it over. I can
then write how promising this will be for the world, that I've shown it
to scientists and they can't disprove it, NASA is interested, and Big
Oil companies are fighting to keep it a secret so I can't disclose the
details. However, to an engineer or anyone who paid attention in high
school physics, the flow of shaft power should be recognized as energy
and right there we see creating energy from nothing instead of
converting (and in the process consuming) it from another form (solar,
chemical battery, electric field in a capacitor) is as absurd as making
apples magically appear in a box.
So apparently your newspaper was suckered in, well, who really expects
them to be a body of qualified scientific review.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
Then why don't you talk to the Liverpool scientist in England that what you
are doing does not work.
According the news paper article I read some time back, that a magnet
constructed with a combination of three elements when rotated through a
strong magnet field, changes it poles on every turn.
These will be produce for disc drives for a lap tops to begin with.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
On 26 Oct 2006 at 12:21, Roland Wiench wrote:
Also if you want to wait about 20 to 30 years, you may get a magnetic
motor
that has auto changing poles that requires no main battery pack. The
Liverpool
Labs in England are now running small proto types on this design.
This sounds pretty dodgy to me. Did you read about this in Electrifying
Times?
LOL, it really gets me that almost everyone accepts that perpetual motion
machines are impossible.
But hook a perpetual motion machine up to a car or a generator so that it
not only runs forever, but it produces useful work as a by product...well,
that's entirely reasonable, why wouldn't it work?
Sheesh.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have thought about serialized controllers also, particularly because I
already have a low-voltage controller. I determined it was better to
design a single high voltage one instead, but if someone says it won't
work, then maybe I will try it. :)
It certainly won't work for AC, but DC maybe.
Jack
Steve Condie wrote:
I asked Alltrax if I could do this a year or two ago. They said no, because the
controller would "see" more than 72 volts. I didn't understand that at the
time (and probably still don't) but my guess is that this means that the voltage in the
output stages of the controller would be over the 100 volt rating of the diodes, etc. in
the Altrax controller, and they would therefore fail.
Seth Myers wrote:
> A suggestion from the repercussions on the Curtis ('Cursit'
> was the cute name that got picked up) discussion was that
> I just select an Alltrax 7245 - 72 volts, 450 amps.
> What about putting two of these controllers in series,
I'd consider a 144V pack and a single 7245. Arrange the pack as 2 72V
strings and parallel them at lower speeds so the controller runs of the
72V pack and all batteries are discharged evenly. Above some speed,
switch the packs in series and leave the controller connected across
only the top 72V segment. This allows the controller to vary voltage to
the motor between 72V and 144V.
There may be issues with how well the current limit would work with the
controller 'floating' at 72V; if I recall correctly, Lee Hart described
this sort of arrangement in the past, but using a Curtis.
You might also simply consider a 1231C. Yes, it will whine at light
throttle, but in my experience this is limited to very slow creeping
around speeds, but it will give you 550A briefly when cool and is rated
for up to 144V packs.
Cheers,
Roger.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I installed my heater today. It was 0 degrees F when I
left the garage this morning.
One of the pins broke off that Mr.Holmes black box
"ceramic" element. So I'm only powering 2/3rds of it.
I'm using it in a 1986 toyota pu with 120vdc, and
curtis upgraded 1209B(120v-550amp) and the vechicle
weighs 4100#.
OK so the windsheild was kept clear. That was the
major issue. I had the fan on full blast. The air
didn't seem hot at all and I had to run it the entire
time.
Questions
1- Is it OK to use styrofoam to insulate the cab? The
stuff is flammable, but I wonder what type of fire
danger there is? Perhaps coat with some fire barrier
stuff? Batt insulation is not flammable, but you need
to keep it dry.
2- If I add the second element. Do I mount it so the
air goes through both or do I just mount in the same
plane as the other element. I wonder because if I
added a third one I'd run out of space?
thanks so much...
Michael Golub
Fairbanks, AK
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info. A customer of mine just paid 1600 for the 1221C. That
must have included tax & shipping. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
>
> KTA iists a 1221C at $975, the 1231C at $1425, and the Z1K-LV at $1975.
>
> So, the entry-level for a road-going controller is $975, not $1600.
>
> Phil
>
> >From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 06:27:35 -0700
> >
> > The problem is a 1231C is 1600 & the Zilla is 1850. There is no
> >chance
> >I'd buy the Curtis at that price point. However there is no Zilla to be
> >had
> >at that price right now. Hence the problem. Logisystems again is the
only
> >source for something inbetween. Lawrence Rhodes
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:24 PM
> >Subject: RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> >
> >
> > > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is exactly what I am proposing... High voltage
> > > > Curtii Killer, with some goodies, Not many.
> > >
> > > You certainly seem to have something definite in mind, but it sounds a
> > > lot more like a Zilla-wannabe than a Curtis Killer to me.
> > >
> > > I'm all for extending the voltage reach as high as possible, but not
at
> > > the expense of pushing the cost so high that the people who would
have
> > > bought a Curtis will continue to do so. IGBTs may not have the
quantum
> > > cost steps with voltage that mOSFETs do, but they aren't the only
> > > voltage-dependant parts, and cost of all of these things still
> > > increases with voltage.
> > >
> > > You suggest that you'd need to get about $2k/unit, and there'd be mark
> > > up on top, so its sounding like a cost in the $2500-3000 range, which
> > > I'm afraid means its really not a threat to Curtis business at all.
> > >
> > > The key to you having any success with the product you describe seems
to
> > > lie with Otmar being unable to keep up with orders indefinitely, and
> > > you being able to steal enough of his Z1K customers to make it worth
> > > your while.
> > >
> > > I really don't see that many Curtis buyers paying $1k more for a
> > > controller, and those that would will consider carefully when the
same
> > > money buys a university-educated lizard instead of a dumb as a box of
> > > rocks model with less power and fewer features.
> > >
> > > > The point is a easy to buld easy to service, simple power
> > > > stage simple analog controller that just gets the job done.
> > >
> > > Sounds great!
> > >
> > > > You want software? Fine You write the code and support it.
> > > > By the time most folks get the code solid enough for
> > > > shipping, I will be shipping about the 250the unit.
> > >
> > > Analog is fine as long as you're content with a dumb as a box of rocks
> > > device. Building it on a micro lets you offer it as dumb as you like
> > > to start with, and then add all the bells and whistles you or your
> > > customers want later far more cheaply than if you try to stick with
all
> > > analog circuitry.
> > >
> > > > > If you absolutely don't want the headache/dev effort of
> > > > > supporting comms, at least have the decency to provide
> > > > > thumbwheels or indexed rotary switches, etc. for positive
> > > > > setting of current limit(s) and RPM limits.
> > >
> > > > Clearly NOT a chance. All the stuff is a bugger to keep
> > > > clean and water resistant.
> > >
> > > An indexed rotary switch is no different to protect than a 25-turn
pot.
> > > Thumbwheels you might have a valid argument against, but then again
you
> > > can stick them behind a lexan or Al plate just as easily and
> > > effectively as anything else.
> > >
> > > > You are clearly thinking about digital controls.
> > >
> > > Not at all. If you can set current limit with a pot, then you can
also
> > > arrange the circuit so that by default it is set to min amps and by
> > > turning either a rotary switch or indexed single-turn pot you
parallel
> > > additional resistance in the appropriate spot to increase the current
> > > limit.
> > >
> > > You could certainly use a binary encoded rotary switch to control a
> > > digital pot and have digital control without a micro, but that sounds
> > > more expensive than necessary to me.
> > >
> > > > > I think you're missing the boat with encouraging people to
> > > > > use a PB6. The pot is junk, and at $75 a pop there should
> > > > > be a good revenue opportunity here by offering your own
> > > > > competitively-priced version based on a quality pot and
> > > > > intended to survive the automotive underhood environment.
> > > >
> > > > Yup but I don't care where you get a 10k pot.
> > > > A PB6 is cheap and they are every where. Multi sourced,
> > > > and well. What else matters?
> > >
> > > Well, there's the small matter of $75 for a crappy pot that won't
remain
> > > reliable under the hood of a car for very long. I personally don't
> > > consider $75 for this cheap; $75 for a simple 5k potbox that would
last
> > > reliably would be a great deal.
> > >
> > > > Oh you mean I should hand make somthing out of PVC pipe and
> > > > old Phone wire?? Been there done that.
> > >
> > > Nope, but those were a damn nice throttle 'pot' setup. Nothing to
wear
> > > out, and easy to connect to any throttle cable and adjust for throw,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > > Or do you mean a $500 throttle pot from a quality ICE doner rig?
> > > > that might meet spec..
> > >
> > > That's more along the lines of what I was thinking, but they're a hell
> > > of a lot cheaper than that even new. Some quality sealed pots
intended
> > > for automotive duty were discussed on list recently; I think they
might
> > > have been in the $40 ballpark and I'm sure someone looking build
> > > hundreds of controllers could get a decent pricebreak even on
quantity
> > > 100 purchases.
> > >
> > > > Hey the EV world uses PB6 pot boxes... I am taking the easy
> > > > way our here. Heck Otmar does.
> > >
> > > Hey its your call, but I think there'd be a certain satisfaction to
> > > building a PB6 replacement suitable for the on-road environment and
> > > putting $25-30 in *your* pocket everytime Otmar, Curtis, or you sell
a
> > > controller to an on-road application.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Roger.
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree.
Don Cameron wrote:
Josh, since I am not an EE I cannot offer much except my vote of support.
Notwithstanding Dave's concerns about China, you might find the list a
little negative at times, finding problems rather than solutions. It might
be a bit of an uphill struggle. However, persevere and you should be
rewarded with customers who simply want to get their conversions done and on
the road.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two motors & controllers will work. Nothing much else. Lawrence Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 7:18 AM
Subject: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
> A suggestion from the repercussions on the Curtis ('Cursit' was the cute
> name that got picked up)
> discussion was that I just select an Alltrax 7245 - 72 volts, 450 amps.
> Actually, I have one for another low voltage project, almost ready to
> deploy, etc.
> What about putting two of these controllers in series, then I've got
> -144 v
> - 450 amps
> - no squeal
> - current limit programmable
> - a generally most excellent Damon Crocket product (as the rep I've
> heard/read about;
> have yet to see a thread on 'AllTrash' controllers, etc. ...)
>
> Even a 72 volter, I suppose, with using a 4 or 5 gears, might that
allow
> you decent top speeds?
> (just throwing it out for guys who do these calculations in their heads)
> though I saw one Saturn conversion a few months back with a 72 volt,
Alltrax
> system that had top speed advertised as something like 45 -50 mph - so I'm
> guessing that's probably typical. I would like to at least be able to get
> on the highway once in a while, I think.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Seth
>
> ((have a nice day, even to all those Curtis people, whoever ye may be ...
> aargh!)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ditto what he said...AMEN
Rich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: I can build your controller
> I have to say I take my hat off to the guys that are making quality
products available, but when you go to order one and there is a backlog when
you need the controller or charger, etc., you have to look at every
alternative. It is also hard for some of us who aren't rich and are trying
to do a project to put out $2000 for a controller, motor, charger, etc.
>
> So who knows? Maybe import controllers, chargers, etc., could make plug-in
EVs more available to a larger population at less cost?
>
> BTW I like my Chinese Engine Lathe! It works great!
>
> In my case I am ready to buy a controller and hear they are not available,
so I will focus on something else in the project. I have had to struggle
with designing and machining my motor adapter because nobody who IS
supplying the market liked my automatic transmission. Yes, sorry to say we
have some pretty bull-headed types that INSIST your project is going to fail
if you do something they don't recommend!
>
> Sorry guys, you are dead wrong and you WILL see me going down the road in
my Saab in the near future!...yes automatic, air conditioning and full power
too!
>
> The motor will soon be in and that part behind, with some pain of course
but with the reward of saving a lot of money and "doing it myself". As a EE
I too can sit down and come up with a controller if I want to spend the time
designing it. The problem is it might take 5 years to get my car done!
>
> Just my two cents worth....and a bunch more saved by doing it myself!
>
> Mark Ward
> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> www. saabrina.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
> ---- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Aw come on Dave. Someone send him a set of schematics and let him
> > discover on his own that it takes more than a set of schemtics to build
an
> > EV size motor controller ;-)
> >
> > > Josh wrote :
> > >
> > >> I work in the consumer electronics industry ... I have visited
> > >> many factories in China and work closely with overseas
> > >> manufacturers and suppliers.
> > >
> > > Warning, rant ahead!
> > >
> > > Great, just what we need, twenty cent an hour Chinese sweatshop labor
to
> > > bury the good folks on the list who make their living, such as it is,
> > > building high quality EV components.
> > >
> > > Josh, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since (I think) you're a
> > > newbie
> > > here, but how about a little concern for guys like Rich and Otmar, our
> > > friends who work with list members to build what they want and produce
a
> > > high quality product? Rich at least has gone into debt to do this.
> > >
> > > These guys are producing handbuilt products at mass-production prices,
and
> > > damn reasonable ones at that. I doubt that they're getting rich on
it,
> > > but
> > > they are doing us a real service. Take their living away from them
and
> > > you
> > > can forget them ever taking part in EVs as a business again.
> > >
> > > Sorry if I seem a bit annoyed about this - I am. If we had nobody at
all
> > > building the components we need, it would be a different matter, but
we
> > > are
> > > lucky to have people who do - and whom we can literally call up for
help
> > > and
> > > support (try that with the guys in China).
> > >
> > > I don't want a fight, and I don't want to seem ungrateful, but I
really
> > > wish
> > > you would take your Chinese manufacturing connections somewhere else
and
> > > use
> > > them for something else.
> > >
> > >
> > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > > EV List Assistant Administrator
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> > > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> > > To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> > > the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> > junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
I
> > wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> > legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.16/504 - Release Date:
10/27/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Type the term "magnetic motor" into a search engine and see what you find.
If that doesn't set your BS detector off, you weren't paying attention in
high school physics class. (Or you didn't TAKE high school physics, more's
the pity.)
But whatever you read about magnetic motors, don't discuss them here. This
list has a longstanding policy against discussion of such pseudoscientific
malarkey as "free energy" and "overunity machines."
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nobody is going to put Rich or Otmar out of business. They are producing
the best quality products to charge and power an ev. There is the market
below where I think Josh's methods will work. David there is simply nothing
to be had but Curtis, Zapi & Altrax for the most part. There are millions
of small controllers made for scooters each year in Asia. It doesn't seem
to put Goped out of business. You still get what you pay for. Lawrence
Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: I can build your controller
> Josh wrote :
>
> > I work in the consumer electronics industry ... I have visited
> > many factories in China and work closely with overseas
> > manufacturers and suppliers.
>
> Warning, rant ahead!
>
> Great, just what we need, twenty cent an hour Chinese sweatshop labor to
> bury the good folks on the list who make their living, such as it is,
> building high quality EV components.
>
> Josh, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since (I think) you're a
newbie
> here, but how about a little concern for guys like Rich and Otmar, our
> friends who work with list members to build what they want and produce a
> high quality product? Rich at least has gone into debt to do this.
>
> These guys are producing handbuilt products at mass-production prices, and
> damn reasonable ones at that. I doubt that they're getting rich on it,
but
> they are doing us a real service. Take their living away from them and
you
> can forget them ever taking part in EVs as a business again.
>
> Sorry if I seem a bit annoyed about this - I am. If we had nobody at all
> building the components we need, it would be a different matter, but we
are
> lucky to have people who do - and whom we can literally call up for help
and
> support (try that with the guys in China).
>
> I don't want a fight, and I don't want to seem ungrateful, but I really
wish
> you would take your Chinese manufacturing connections somewhere else and
use
> them for something else.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
