EV Digest 6067
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Mechanical control, was: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Mechanical control,
was: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option. ..
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Electric boat vehicles in wooden boat magazine
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Mechanical control, was: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option. ..
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Mechanical control, was: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option. ..
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on fr
eeway?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: AGM battery charging
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Mechanical control, was: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option. ..
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Inrush current, was: Cursit controllers revisited (squealing);
precharge 'circuit' again (please)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Mechanical control, was: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Mechanical control, was: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Jack Murray"
Or maybe Mr. Flinstone got it right, update it
with some good birkenstock sandals. just joking and jabbing :)
Ahh but Mr. Flynnstone is now driving an EV
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/11/ebay-find-of-the-day-flintstones-car-yabba-dabba-doo
Instead of the typical Flintstone's foot powered vehicle,
this baby will move under its own power and is environmentally
friendly to boot, with an electric motor under the planks.
Jb
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, my misunderstanding. The original post misspelled steering, so I
read it as a misspelling of Sterling (which is actually Stirling).
Anyway, this is a pretty neat idea. I'm going to have to look into this
some more.
> Doesn't seem like a Stirling engine. They boil freon in the collector,
> drive a rotary vane, then condense it somewhere and send liquid back to
> the collector for boiling. The cycle seems identical to the steam cycle
> used in just about any power plant, it's just using freon for a
> radically different boiling point.
>
> Danny
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>>Odd...cheap and Sterling don't normally go together. Especially when you
>>are talking freon and so forth. Reliability is another issue with
>>Sterling heat engines.
>>
>>I used to work next to a solar collector sterling generator that was
>> rated
>>for 10-15kw. It was down waiting for parts more often than it was up and
>>running. And this was for a high quality piece of equipment that cost
>>well up in the 6 figure range.
>>
>>Do you have a link to any information about this on the web?
>>
>>
>>
>>>By the way mit recently came out with a cheap solar heat powered
>>>electric generator using a solar concentrator, power sterring pumps
>>>running off solar heated freon and linked to a good old car generator to
>>>charge batteries.
>>>With great efficiencies and very low cost compared to solar cells why
>>>could that sit in an electric pickup truck and give great self
>>>rechargability?
>>>
>>>
>>>That's the kind of ultra low tech I want to aim for.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 9:04 pm, Lee Hart wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> It'd work, just be exceptionally inefficient if you tried to do it
>>>>>>with a
>>>>>> series motor. Instead of having 80% of the battery available energy
>>>>>> turned into motion, you may be as bad as 30%.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>From: "Ted C."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> What's the problem with that? Millions of people every day drive cars
>>>>> powered by ICE motors every day. We don't hear to many of them
>>>>> complain about 30% efficiency.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>An ICE has a range of perhaps 300 miles even with its 30% efficiency.
>>>>If its engine was 100% efficient, its range would be more like 1000
>>>>miles
>>>>on a tank of gas.
>>>>
>>>>An EV has a range of more like 30 miles, and that's *with* an
>>>>efficiency
>>>>of 80% or more. If its efficiency were 30%, its range would be more
>>>>like
>>>>10 miles. That's unacceptable.
>>>>
>>>>I think what you're looking for is a contactor controller. This is what
>>>>they
>>>>used 100 years ago for EVs. They are crude and jerky, but almost 100%
>>>>efficienct and very simple. Basically, it is a bunch of switches that
>>>>wire
>>>>the batteries in various series/parallel combinations to get the
>>>>desired
>>>>motor speed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
>>>globalwarming and the melting poles.
>>>
>>>www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could also put a gear on the brake disc as a drive point.
Also some cars have brake disc inboard on the half shafts so motor
mounting would be easier.
I have seen ads for an electric assit that uses a large motor alternator
combo as a boltin replacement for an alternator. The motor provides
additional drive force directly through the alternater belt to the motor
driveshaft pulley decreasing fuel use for more acceleration. It uses
oversize batteries for the additional force but it requires almost no
changes to the car otherwise. It is short of an electric supercharger
type effect rather than ice replacement.
What about mounting four small motor to the inside of the wheel rims if
they are mounted on the suspension structure so they moved with the
wheels.
Gearing would be right on the outside rims. Dirt would be a problem but
less so if the motor mounted on top of the wheel and the gear faced
toward the rim rather than the axle. ( it would sling dirt off).
Each motor could be a brake too.
Central batteey pack would be used.
Would have four wheel independent drive ability. Would have
driveability after loss of some motors
Might be easy to to custom rims made with a gear ring just inside the
inside tire rim since custom milling rims is common now. Just load the
cad program with the design wanted!
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:56 am, Bruce wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
I believe that while not the most perfect , an electric car that could
literally be made from a home builder...
would have a whole new level of appeal
This sounds like an interesting topic. What about making the car
drivetrain
easier to home fabricate?
The usual approach is to machine an adapter plate and a coupling to
connect
the motor to the donor car's clutch or transmission. Precision counts
here
as you certainly want the two to be in good alignment and the
connection to
be reliable. But this is not something that can be easily home
fabricated.
Are there other ways to accomplish transmitting the power from the
electric
motor into making the car move forward?
1) Belt or chain drive. Easier to align. But where do you put the
driven
sprocket or pulley?
A) On the trans/clutch? That input shaft is probably not designed
for
the side loads that a chain drive would produce.
B) On the differential?
C) On the wheel drive shaft(s)?
D) On the wheel(s)?
2) Gear drive. The simplest EV conversion would be just to drive the
car by
holding the key in the start position with the car in gear. The
starter
motor would turn the flywheel by its existing gear drive. It would
probably
overheat the starter motor after a few hundred feet of driving. So you
replace the starter motor with a motor more suited to continuous duty.
But
that motor pinion and flywheel ring gear really should be in an oil
filled
gearcase...
3) Friction drive directly to the wheel like on an inexpensive bicycle
assist motor. This method has the advantage over others in that the
existing drivetrain does not need to be modified or even removed for
that
matter. Have your electric motor drive a small pneumatic tire by chain
drive and then press that tire directly against the top of one of the
rear
wheels with enough force to keep the two from slipping. How much
friction
would be added by this arrangement? In a well designed system, perhaps
less
than one might think. On a conventional drive car, there are 4 tire
deflection patches, one for each tire contacting the road. On this
setup,
there would be 2 additional tire deflection patches.
4) Air drive. Power a propeller or a centrifugal blower by the
electric
motor and blow the air out the back to make the car go forward.
Probably
not street legal...
5) Direct drive. Suitable hub motors are not usually found cheap.
Making
them might not be any easier. Direct drive to the differential would
be
easier, but then you are back to precision shaft alignment. How about
a
front engine/rear drive car with direct drive to the driveshaft through
the
U-joints? Most cars of this type are not recent or light weight and
the
motor would have to turn at pretty low RPMs since you don't have the
gear
reduction of the transmission.
Have I missed any other drive methods?
Which of these seems the most practical?
What affordable EVs have others seen or heard of that use a non
conventional
drive system?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The current issue of wodden boat magazine on the stands has an
interesting article about a wooden hulled homebuilt solar electric boat
which performed well in some endurance races in holland.
Boating is actually a great place for solar electric vehicles because
you have more area for power collection and many boats have lower
maximum power requirements with less power changes than cars.
Especially lake and canal small boats.
Cruise all day with no gas costs!
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
>
> Obviously many variables like cd etc but just want a round number.
>
Nothing's typical! I can only speak to what I drive, a 2000 Ranger,
and numbers are *from the mains*, since I only have the AC kwh input,
so it is more than the actual power needed. I average 350-400 watt-
hrs/mi, so at 60mph I need 21-24kw "per hour", but probably at least
10% less from the pack due to charger inefficiency. If charging is
kept in the 20% to 80% state-of-charge range, you don't add on battery
chemistry inefficiencies to that (tapering up at low SOC, tapering
down the last 20%). By contrast, the EV1 got 200wt-hrs/mi from the
pack (12kw to keep at 60mph), and some conversions do even better.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Here's a link to the article in the MIT technology review.
> http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?
id=17169&ch=energy
>
> Sterling was of course never mentioned and neither was efficiency.
The
> key to solar power adoption is cost which is neatly addressed by
using
> old car parts.
>
> It's an interesting article, it reminds me of my father in laws
pool
> heater. He laid out grids of PVC pipes across the roof of his home
in
> California and pumped pool water through it. No reflectors were
> needed, he just painted the pipes black. The system kept his home
> cooler and his pool heated, he even had to scale it back some after
> steaming hot water came out of it on the first really hot summer
day.
>
>
Hot water is one thing, mixing recycled parts and freon might be a
totally different concern. I'd rather see their numbers using
ammonia gas, since it does occur naturally.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That was power steering pumps not sterling pumps. Bad spelling error
sorry.
The goal was to make a solar power source based on mass manufactured
highly realiable items. Hence the use of automobile power sterring pumps
and auto alternators. The working fliud may have been another commonly
used expanding oil rather than freon.
The powersteering pump was used has a motor driven by the fluid and its
axle was mounted diretly to the alternator axle.
Cost waa much less than a photoelectric panel for same poweroutput.
Don't have the link handy right now sorry.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:56 am, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Odd...cheap and Sterling don't normally go together. Especially when
you
are talking freon and so forth. Reliability is another issue with
Sterling heat engines.
I used to work next to a solar collector sterling generator that was
rated
for 10-15kw. It was down waiting for parts more often than it was up
and
running. And this was for a high quality piece of equipment that cost
well up in the 6 figure range.
Do you have a link to any information about this on the web?
By the way mit recently came out with a cheap solar heat powered
electric generator using a solar concentrator, power sterring pumps
running off solar heated freon and linked to a good old car generator
to
charge batteries.
With great efficiencies and very low cost compared to solar cells why
could that sit in an electric pickup truck and give great self
rechargability?
That's the kind of ultra low tech I want to aim for.
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 9:04 pm, Lee Hart wrote:
It'd work, just be exceptionally inefficient if you tried to do it
with a
series motor. Instead of having 80% of the battery available energy
turned into motion, you may be as bad as 30%.
From: "Ted C."
What's the problem with that? Millions of people every day drive cars
powered by ICE motors every day. We don't hear to many of them
complain about 30% efficiency.
An ICE has a range of perhaps 300 miles even with its 30% efficiency.
If its engine was 100% efficient, its range would be more like 1000
miles
on a tank of gas.
An EV has a range of more like 30 miles, and that's *with* an
efficiency
of 80% or more. If its efficiency were 30%, its range would be more
like
10 miles. That's unacceptable.
I think what you're looking for is a contactor controller. This is
what
they
used 100 years ago for EVs. They are crude and jerky, but almost 100%
efficienct and very simple. Basically, it is a bunch of switches that
wire
the batteries in various series/parallel combinations to get the
desired
motor speed.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Typical truck at constant 60 flat road no wind, well aligned
and such should do better than 300 Wh/mi
Aerodynamic car should be more like 200 Wh/mi.
Heavy traffic and city stop & go every block will kill
this number and you can reach 400 Wh/mi without even trying
from all the wasted energy in every extra takeoff.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on
freeway?
How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
Obviously many variables like cd etc but just want a round number.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been charging my AGMs with full current (10A) until
they hit the point where they could start gassing at 13.6V
per battery which is 163V for your pack.
Hold it there until the amps are below 1A or the timer runs out
(I charge between 12 AM and 7 AM every night on lowest rate)
>From time to time you must do an equalization charge whereby
there is risk that the batteries vent (sealed battery is not
completely sealed)
and I take them up to 14.8V per battery, in your case 178V at
a constant current of 1/50 of capacity. That is 1.3A for you.
When the voltage has reached the max and current tapers down,
you can hold it there for some time like 1/2 hour and then
stop this charging pattern and go back to the settings for
the max current to 163V only for next night.
NOTE that regulators are a good idea on AGM as I have damaged
3 in my pack that apparently slowly drifted away from the others
or that happened to have a lower capacity.
I did get 3 replacements though, I still need to put them in
but I am driving the car every day and have not found time
yet. Range is down due to the 3 stinkers but still usable.
All other 23 batteries seem to like each other ;-)
I have 4800 miles on my pack now, since January.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Storm Connors
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AGM battery charging
Could someone tell me how to charge 144 volts of AGMs. I have a manual
charger. I can adjust the voltage and can measure the amps.
The batteries are 33Ah (20 hr rate) Dynasty UPS12-140FRs. I've buddied
pairs, so I have 24 of them installed. I realize I can't expect much range
and they are a long way from new, but after sitting for a year they were all
at 12.2-12.3v. Seems like they should prove the concept.
I learned from Mr. Roden to charged them until the voltage stops increasing
from hour to hour.Other than that, the archives are pretty confusing. What
I'd really like are some specifics like charge at x amps until ... then set
voltage at y until amps drops below z- or something like that.
I know that the best answer is buy a proper charger. I expect these
batteries won't last forever and they will probably be replaced with flooded
8v. Buying another charger doesn't seem a good option under the
circumstances. But I don't want to kill these either.
Thanks,
storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
>I have seen ads for an electric assit that uses a large motor alternator
>combo as a boltin replacement for an alternator. The motor provides
>additional drive force directly through the alternater belt to the motor
>driveshaft pulley decreasing fuel use for more acceleration.
This is the GM variant of a "Hybrid" by providing only a beefed
starter/alternator, so you can avoid the idling and down-coasting
losses, the engine is only stopped as long as you brake.
There is a small amount of motor assist possible, but I doubt
that it is noticeable in mileage, probably only helps the
ridiculous claims department in shaving another tenth of the
0-60 time and allowing them to claim its a Hybrid and that
the engine/motor combination delivers more torque - the
same claim as everyone else, so they are not losing on the
BS-bingo points for those who only "tick off" the features.
The Prius is able to drive electric only in the city, so
it almost is a gas-assist EV.
The green Vue cannot drive electric, the motor only starts
the gas engine when needed. It is a pure gas-propelled car.
(The Prius also gets all its energy from gas of course,
unless you make it a plug-in)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 10/26/2006 2:11:12 PM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
>
> Obviously many variables like cd etc but just want a round number.>>>
I rode my trike 22 yesterday (48 volt system, weighs about 600lbs). When
the day was done, I plugged in the charger with my "Kill A Watt" meter
attached.
This AM, I unplugged the charger and found I had used 5.12 Killowatts to
recharge. The bicycle speedo, whick keeps track of "elapsed time" showed I
had
been running for just over an hour. So, my unit (smaller than a "typical
car") cost about 5+ kilowatts for an hour (at 20 to 30 mph). Works out to 1.6
cents a miles at Colorado Springs's Utilities seven cents a kilowatt
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In case you really wanted watts - this would be 18000 watts for the truck,
or , 12000 watts for the car at 60 MPH.
Phil.
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on
freeway?
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:17:54 -0700
Typical truck at constant 60 flat road no wind, well aligned
and such should do better than 300 Wh/mi
Aerodynamic car should be more like 200 Wh/mi.
Heavy traffic and city stop & go every block will kill
this number and you can reach 400 Wh/mi without even trying
from all the wasted energy in every extra takeoff.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on
freeway?
How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
Obviously many variables like cd etc but just want a round number.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
_________________________________________________________________
All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce kirjoitti 26.10.2006 kello 20.31:
Are there other ways to accomplish transmitting the power from the
electric
motor into making the car move forward?
3) Friction drive directly to the wheel like on an inexpensive bicycle
assist motor.
I think it´s important (and fun) to try to find fresh approaches like
above, and to questionize common solutions, even if it doesn´t always
lead to anything useful.
I´ve been thinking something a bit similar for 3-wheelers, but it
could be done for other vehicles also... If a belt drive with a
suitable gear ratio leads to something like this
http://www.cree.ch/images/visuals/6.jpg
...where the belt pulley is about the size of the rim, why not make
or attach gear teeth on the side of the rim, and attach the motor
(with another gear) directly to it. Something like this (the second
picture):
http://www.zakgear.com/Scrown.html
I´m not sure if there are any benefits when compared to a normal belt
drive though :) How to lubricate the gears? Is it possible to make
the gear in the rim of some kind of light and self-lubricating plastic?
Anyway belt, the weakest link in the belt drive system, is not needed
here. And comparing with a hub motor system the unsprung weight is
smaller if the motor is near the swingarm axle.
What about efficiency, noise, dirt...
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you had any experience with EVs in the past, either hands-on or
otherwise? It would be useful to know what you do and don't already
know about the subject.
> You could also put a gear on the brake disc as a drive point.
>
> Also some cars have brake disc inboard on the half shafts so motor
> mounting would be easier.
>
> I have seen ads for an electric assit that uses a large motor
alternator
> combo as a boltin replacement for an alternator. The motor
provides
> additional drive force directly through the alternater belt to the
motor
> driveshaft pulley decreasing fuel use for more acceleration. It
uses
> oversize batteries for the additional force but it requires almost
no
> changes to the car otherwise. It is short of an electric
supercharger
> type effect rather than ice replacement.
>
>
> What about mounting four small motor to the inside of the wheel
rims if
> they are mounted on the suspension structure so they moved with
the
> wheels.
>
> Gearing would be right on the outside rims. Dirt would be a
problem but
> less so if the motor mounted on top of the wheel and the gear
faced
> toward the rim rather than the axle. ( it would sling dirt off).
> Each motor could be a brake too.
> Central batteey pack would be used.
> Would have four wheel independent drive ability. Would have
> driveability after loss of some motors
>
> Might be easy to to custom rims made with a gear ring just inside
the
> inside tire rim since custom milling rims is common now. Just load
the
> cad program with the design wanted!
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:56 am, Bruce wrote:
> > GWMobile wrote:
> >> I believe that while not the most perfect , an electric car
that could
> >> literally be made from a home builder...
> >> would have a whole new level of appeal
> >
> > This sounds like an interesting topic. What about making the
car
> > drivetrain
> > easier to home fabricate?
> >
> > The usual approach is to machine an adapter plate and a coupling
to
> > connect
> > the motor to the donor car's clutch or transmission. Precision
counts
> > here
> > as you certainly want the two to be in good alignment and the
> > connection to
> > be reliable. But this is not something that can be easily home
> > fabricated.
> >
> > Are there other ways to accomplish transmitting the power from
the
> > electric
> > motor into making the car move forward?
> >
> > 1) Belt or chain drive. Easier to align. But where do you put
the
> > driven
> > sprocket or pulley?
> > A) On the trans/clutch? That input shaft is probably not
designed
> > for
> > the side loads that a chain drive would produce.
> > B) On the differential?
> > C) On the wheel drive shaft(s)?
> > D) On the wheel(s)?
> >
> > 2) Gear drive. The simplest EV conversion would be just to
drive the
> > car by
> > holding the key in the start position with the car in gear. The
> > starter
> > motor would turn the flywheel by its existing gear drive. It
would
> > probably
> > overheat the starter motor after a few hundred feet of driving.
So you
> > replace the starter motor with a motor more suited to continuous
duty.
> > But
> > that motor pinion and flywheel ring gear really should be in an
oil
> > filled
> > gearcase...
> >
> > 3) Friction drive directly to the wheel like on an inexpensive
bicycle
> > assist motor. This method has the advantage over others in that
the
> > existing drivetrain does not need to be modified or even removed
for
> > that
> > matter. Have your electric motor drive a small pneumatic tire
by chain
> > drive and then press that tire directly against the top of one
of the
> > rear
> > wheels with enough force to keep the two from slipping. How
much
> > friction
> > would be added by this arrangement? In a well designed system,
perhaps
> > less
> > than one might think. On a conventional drive car, there are 4
tire
> > deflection patches, one for each tire contacting the road. On
this
> > setup,
> > there would be 2 additional tire deflection patches.
> >
> > 4) Air drive. Power a propeller or a centrifugal blower by the
> > electric
> > motor and blow the air out the back to make the car go forward.
> > Probably
> > not street legal...
> >
> > 5) Direct drive. Suitable hub motors are not usually found
cheap.
> > Making
> > them might not be any easier. Direct drive to the differential
would
> > be
> > easier, but then you are back to precision shaft alignment. How
about
> > a
> > front engine/rear drive car with direct drive to the driveshaft
through
> > the
> > U-joints? Most cars of this type are not recent or light weight
and
> > the
> > motor would have to turn at pretty low RPMs since you don't have
the
> > gear
> > reduction of the transmission.
> >
> > Have I missed any other drive methods?
> >
> > Which of these seems the most practical?
> >
> > What affordable EVs have others seen or heard of that use a non
> > conventional
> > drive system?
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hot water is one thing, mixing recycled parts and freon might be a
totally different concern. I'd rather see their numbers using
ammonia gas, since it does occur naturally.
Hmm, so does plutonium. Amonia gas is pretty nasty stuff and will kill
you if you're exposed to it in high concentrations 1(500 ppm). I'd
prefer if they used something else entirely.
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--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Do you realize what you said?
Yep. ;^>
> My pack is 312V.
Do you realise how ridiculous what you just wrote is? ;^>
We are talking about precharge requirements for a *Curtis* controller,
and they handle a maximum pack voltage of 144V.
I do not dispute that as the pack voltage increases the effects of the
external resistances decrease, however, at the sub-144V level, I do
believe that you will find the effects of the external resistances
(wires, contacts, fuse/circuit breaker, Anderson disconnect, shunt,
contactor(s), cap ESR, etc) do actually make a fair difference.
At any rate, there is little point arguing over what the exact magnitude
of the inrush *might* be, since we both agree that the magnitude is
sufficiently high to degrade both the caps and the contactor and that's
really the only thing that matters.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Oct 2006 at 12:17, GWMobile wrote:
> How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
There are no such units as "Watts per hour." A Watt is a measure of power
rather
than of energy, so the term "Watts per hour" is meaningless.
Now, Watt-hours (note : NOT "watt/hours") are a measure of energy. A Watt-hour
is
the expenditure of one Watt for one hour. Watt-hours per hour makes sense, but
Watt-hours per hour are ... just Watts. (Mathematically, the hours cancel out.)
So, to answer the question I think you're asking - how much power an EV uses on
the highway - that would be measured in Watts (or, more realistically,
kiloWatts). A
typical small car conversion will need 10-15kW to maintain 60 mph. Very
efficient 4-
wheelers will use somewhat less; trucks and large cars will use more, perhaps
MUCH more.
To look at it another way, 200 to 250 Wh (watt-hours) per mile is typical.
Someone else wrote :
> This AM, I unplugged the charger and found I had used 5.12
> Killowatts to recharge.
I think similar confusion is indicated here.
You may have used 5.12 kiloWatt HOURS (kWh) to recharge, but if you'd used
5.12kW, you'd certainly have tripped the circuit breaker. A conventional 120
volt
household receptacle can supply 2.4 kiloWatts for a few minutes (1.9kW
sustained).
Even a special 120 volt, 30 amp receptacle tops out at 3.6kW. A dryer
receptacle
(240 volts at 30 amps) could supply almost 5.8kW for an extended period, but of
course you'd need a 240 volt charger to take advantage of that capability.
There's a recurring confusion between power and energy, and a lack of
understanding
of units, on this list. Oh, heck, it's not just here, it's everywhere. This
widespread
misunderstanding is symptomatic of the abject failure of our nation's schools
to teach
basic science and math.
I'm lousy at explaining this stuff, so the above is probably hopeless obscure.
Anybody working with EVs really needs to understand these concepts. Anyone
know of a website which explains this in layman's terms?
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Stefan,
The Warp 11 tail shaft, is a GM 400 tail shaft. It can made to fit any
drive line by welding on different U-joints to the spline tube that slips
into this tail shaft.
For engine mounts, this is a option feature, which you have to blue print
out a riser diagram for the correct position to tap bolt holes in the side
of the motor.
Or you can do this yourself. You use a large drill press with a depth stop,
so as the drill does not go inside the motor. Used a self pilot bit that
has a flat cutting edge, not a taper type.
Then tapped the hole with a non-taper tapped, and than finish it up with a
bottom tap. Apply anti-seize lubricant (grease) to the tap so it will pull
out the tap shavings.
My motor has two 1/2 inch grade 8 cap screws bolt holes that is directly tap
into the side of the motor. The motor case is 1/2 inch thick and the bolts
go in 1/2 inch.
You have to blue print out the center line of the original drive line yoke
that slides into the transmission. Then project this line parallel to the
axle yoke. The motor and transmission yoke should be parallel to the axle
yoke while the drive line may be at a angle.
Project the center line of the transmission yoke ahead to where the engine
mounts are at. Then measure from the engine mounting on the frame to this
center line.
Subtract 1/2 of the diameter of the motor and this is the length of you
motor mount is.
For me, a GE 11.5 inch motor is just right for a standard 350 cu.in. engine
mount. A Warp 9 which is about 9.5 inch diameter needs a 1 inch steel bar
bolted on both sides of this motor to keep the center line right. If this is
the case, than you can bolt a steel bar on the side of the motor which will
miss the field coils.
This is easier for Net Gain to install tap holes on the side, and than you
make a mounting spacer bar to fit.
Also the face of these motors are tapped for a mounting accessory plate, as
the same type that are on some engines. You just bolted on a mounting plate
and then bolt on your accessories as it is on a engine.
I am driving five accessory units on this accessory mount. A
alternator-inverter, power steering, A/C, vacuum pump and a water pump for
hot water heating. This only takes 4 to 5 motor amps to drive these units
at idle (500 rpm). At 4000 rpm at 200 motor amps, I can turn alternator,
water pump, and A/C on and off, and I cannot see hardly any change on two of
my motor amp meters, and might as well be 0 amps increase on my battery amp
meters.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > I talk to NetGain a while back about why don't you make your motors in a
> > true traction motor, like my GE traction motor. You just pull the
> > engine
> > out and it goes directly in place of the engine and connects directly to
> > the
> > existing transmission or drive line with no adapters and mounts to the
> > existing engine mounts.
> >
> > The tech said he recommended this to NetGain, because they were getting
> > a
> > lot of request for this. Well, Now you can get a Warp 11 this way and
> > they
> > will have Warp 9's with this configuration.
> >
> >
>
> What ICE engine is this setup intended to replace? Which
> transmission/driveline does it interface with?
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I think what you're looking for is a contactor controller.
Ted C. wrote:
Isn't that how the citicars worked? The relays pick different
combinations of series/parallel.
Yes. Their contactor controller had four steps; off, 24v with series
resistor, 24v direct, and 48v direct.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Would a couple of these work well for a PWM controller?
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/7738/ste110ns20fd.pdf
This is a single MOSFET in an Isotop package. The Isotop is a great
package (screw terminals, isolated base, etc.) but expensive. This
particular MOSFET is too small for a car-sized controller (Rds=0.024
ohms max means just 21 amps for a 1v drop), but ten in parallel would
outperform a Curtis 1231C.
Here are examples of the kind of dual MOSFET module I was thinking of:
http://www.ixys.net/l401.pdf (100v, 680a)
http://www.ixys.net/l389.pdf (300v, 280a)
Or two of these (one for pullup, one for pulldown):
http://www.ixys.net/l410.pdf (200v, 580a)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
Please realize one of my goals is to keep it home built and simple.
I want to stay away from things that require huge labs and factories
like semiconductors.
Then I think you should take a look at a CitiCar. They are about as
basic and simple as you can get! Welded pipe frame, flat plastic body
panels pop-riveted on, golf cart motor and axle, trailer wheels and
springs, contactor controller, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
Did you happen to do the cents/mile for a Trojan T-125?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
David wrote -
> Golf car batteries are the indisputable cost leaders. I once worked this
> out, and for my car AGMs would have cost >SEVEN TIMES< as much per mile as
> golf car batteries. (Except for one small problem; I couldn't fit 144
> volts' worth of golf car batteries to a Geo Metro without collapsing it. ;-)
>
> USBMC 2200 - 2 cents per mile
> Saft STM5-100 - 4-6 cents per mile
> Trojan 27TMH - 8 cents per mile
> Optima G31 - 14 cents per mile
>
> As they say, your mileage may vary; do the math for your own vehicle before
> assuming anything.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
That's a real hard question to answer with any validity exactly because of the
variables. What does the car weight, what is the CD, what is the pack voltage,
what size is the motor, what kind of car? There are so many variables that any
answer would be meaningless. It is exactly like saying what is the gas mileage
of a car at 60 mph. My diesel gets 18 mpg, a Prius gets 45 mpg. There is a big
difference between the two....
Can you give us some more information so we can make an educated guess?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
> How watts per hour for typical car at 60 miles per hour on freeway?
>
> Obviously many variables like cd etc but just want a round number.
>
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