EV Digest 6098
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Pusher Trailer
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Pickup truck drag
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) On PBS ' Great Cars show', EV's, Fuel Cell, hybrids 5:30 in Tampa
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Input requested on heater assembly
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) FW: Battery Spreadsheet
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Jim's Special Dual Motor Rear Axle, was: EV pusher Trailer
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: FS: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by Tony Furr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Buying batteries (price quotes included)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Pickup truck drag
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: ceramic heater core mounting
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Vacuum system help
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Lee your BMS anyone else interested?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Pusher Trailer
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: FS: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Pickup truck drag
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Perry wrote:
I inquired further and was told that no vehicle is legal, unless specified
in the Oregon Statutes.
Here's a clever/stupid idea. Dean Kamen has paid to get laws on the
books in virtually every state to allow his Segway. The laws usually
state a "two wheel, self balancing, non tandem" vehicle is not regulated
by any existing vehicle laws (i.e. it's not a car, motorcycle, bicycle,
skateboard, scooter, etc.), and can be ridden "anywhere a pedestrian can
legally walk", without a helmet, driver's license, insurance,
registration, etc.
What if you build a Segway-like device as a pusher trailer? Two wheels,
side by side (non tandem), and self-balancing because it's attached to
the vehicle it is pushing.
Same for scooters: My BEST kids came up with at least half a dozen ways
to make a 2-wheel self-balancing, non-tandem vehicles without any
gyroscopes, computers, or complex gadgetry.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To me it seems both of you are not referencing to the same exact truck going
the same speed. From what others have posted different trucks and different
bed lengths affect the aerodynamics.
About just the tailgate being up or down. Since all pickups do not have the
same aerodynamics no one is going to know for sure unless you do your own
testing. This is not a case of one test applies to all trucks regardless of
size
or shape and at all speeds.
For a short bed Ranger and S-10 tailgate up with bedcover has been tested
and produces the best aerodynamics for legal highway speeds.
Don
In a message dated 11/4/2006 9:11:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Rush wrote:
> Peter wrote -
>
>> Excuse me, but as was explained in the recently reference R&T artical,
>> lowering the tail gate INCREAES drag and REDUCES downforce.
>>
>
> I'm not going to get in a pissing match here Peter, but had you read my
email you would have seen that my source states that lowering the tailgate
"ADDS to the rear downforce and at the same time REDUCES drag". (emphasis mine)
>
For whatever it's worth, the MythBusters have tested this one several
times and consistently get lower fuel consumption with the tailgate up...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
PBS's show great cars is showing alt fuel cars
this week including EV's. Check your local listings.
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Nov 2006 at 19:54, Lee Hart wrote:
> Both of these parts from the stock heater are AC only, and won't
> reliably work over about 30 volts DC.
I'll second that - from experience.
Years ago I built a heater for my Comuta-car by altering the elements in a
conventional space heater, and replacing the fan motor with a DC motor. My
fan ran too slowly, or my element wiring was wrong, or maybe both. The
elements began to overheat. When the thermal switch tried to open, it
literally hissed, and welded itself shut!
Fortunately, I had the heater wired through a contactor. The hissing noise
alerted me to the fact that something was wrong, and I shut off the heater
with the contactor. But if the car had been moving at that moment, making
its usual racket, I might not have heard the noise, and a hazardous
situation would have resulted. I could ended up with a C-car like the
"legendary" one probably 25 years ago, the one that caught fire while
waiting in a McDonalds drive-through line.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Nov 2006 at 13:56, Rush wrote:
> Cycle wise the U27's are 5 times better
Just a minor correction here, for two reasons : the numbers I have for
Trojan differ from Rush's, and also the way he phrased could be confusing.
Cycle life : It could have changed since then, but the last number I saw for
T-125 BCI cycle life was 650. Compared to that, a battery with a BCI rated
cycle life of 2500 (however we must note that this is just an estimate for
Valence) would be less than THREE times greater (or not quite 4 times as
much, if you prefer the larger number). It's not "5 times better."
Phrasing : It may seem esoteric but it's a matter of accuracy and preventing
confusion for the reader. When making comparisons, be very careful not to
confuse "greater than" with "as much as." (Or for that matter "better
than" with "as good as.")
If we're comparing two batteries, one with a rated cycle life of 1500 cycles
and one with a cycle life of 500 cycles, the 1500 cycle battery has a life
two times greater than
the one with 500 cycles, or
three times as much as
the one with 500 cycles. They are two different ways of saying the same
thing, and they are apparently a source of endless confusion for ad copy
writers (and EV list members).
To express it in percentages, the 1500 cycle battery will deliver
200% MORE cycles,
or
300% AS MANY cycles.
Confused yet? Thank our English language - and a moribund educational
system - for your confusion.
None of this actually negates the basic point that Rush was trying to make.
Golf car batteries are still the low-cost-per-mile champions, at least for
DIYers, where usually no cost is ascribed to maintenance and replacement
labor.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Here is a spreadsheet that I have created.
http://www.evdl.org/docs/odyssey_battery_comparison.xls
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 2:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Battery Spreadsheet
Good job on the battery spreadsheet Brandon! I'd been searching for
something like that myself. What about adding the common Dyno and
Interstate batteries? Specs for each are here:
http://www.dynobattery.com/prod01.htm
http://www.interstatebatteries.com/www_2001/content/products/product_golfcar
.asp
And a column for Peukert's number would make it pretty complete!
______________________________________________________________________
Brandon Kruger wrote: I've made a
> spreadsheet of about 50 different batteries comparing capacity,
> weight, etc. It can be accessed here:
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA. I
> hope this can help others in finding a suitable battery.
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--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 4, 2006, at 5:38 AM, Mike Chancey wrote:
Keep in mind, this was a copy of JB's and Sharkey's pushers, so I had
a concept to follow.
Yes, but you did it with a newer car that's more likely to be
available. I don't really want to spend the time and effort on a
pusher trailer using an ancient ICE that is going to die soon anyway.
JB did an "existence proof", Mr. Sharkey refined it and got a lot of
good data. Yours looks a lot more practical to me.
I asked:
What kind of gas mileage do you get with the pusher pushing your EV?
How does it compare to the mileage of the stock Civic that you made
into the trailer?
It is hard to get a very valid number here since some of the power is
coming from the batteries and currently the pusher can't recharge the
EV. It is reporting about 29 MPG, in mixed city/highway, mostly city,
but I am only on the second fill up since I built it and still have a
lot to sort out. My other ICE Civic gets about 28 in town and about 34
highway, so all the extra weight and complexity has to have has some
negative effect. I suspect with everything tweaked up a bit it could
get better.
Not bad - lower than stock as expected, but about the same as my less
efficient Subaru. Good news!
Your answer leads to another question, though. If some of the power is
coming from your EV batteries, then you're leaving the EV drive system
"live" while also running on the pusher. This brings up two issues:
1) How do the two drive systems interact? I'd think that the ICE +
cruise control would resist the EV tugging on it and waste energy. I'm
not sure how the EV would respond to being pushed by the ICE, but I'd
guess there wouldn't be a problem as long as you kept the RPMs below
the 'splode speed. Ideally you'd sync the two closely enough that
you'd get the benefits of a hybrid - ICE for steady long-distance
travel, EV for quick acceleration. How difficult do you think this
would be?
2) Eventually you'll be charging the EV's pack from the pusher trailer
while going down the road. What kind of issues do you need to consider
when you have an EV that can be recharged while driving? That's pretty
new territory - most EVs have interlocks that prevent the drive system
from working if the charger is plugged in.
How about top speed?
I am not really sure. It was cruising happily at 78 MPH indicated,
but the pusher engine is pretty old and tired so I don't want to blow
it up finding out.
Good enough. This thing is for highway cruising, so it needs to travel
at highway speeds. I would have been pleased with 65mph; 75 is great.
Still considering the Power-Mite generator? New, they cost more than
four times what you paid for the donor.... Do you have a better
source?
Yes, I have two of the Power-Mite style generators I picked up on eBay
for about $30, hopefully I can get one to work.
Nice! Good luck on that. Reading their web site
<http://www.fabcopower.com/generat/bgen.htm>, I was struck by the
similarities between how they describe the construction of their
generators and how Jim Husted describes the rebuilding of his motors.
Perhaps he can help if you get stuck?
Mounting is the real problem, the engine compartment is so tight. I
have been considering mounting one in the EV instead and driving it
from the tail shaft. This would keep all the high voltage circuits
inside the EV and maybe allow using it for regen when the pusher isn't
attached.
I gave that some thought last night. Could you replace the alternator
with the Power-Mite? Then use a 110v battery charger to keep the
battery charged? You'd have more flexibility in placing the charger
than the generator. You could easily end up with a more efficient
charging system, and with a smart charger the starting battery should
last longer too.
I don't know the relative sizes of your alternator and the Power-Mite,
so this might be way off base.
Thanks for building this project, and thanks again for sharing the info
with us. And of course for the EV Album too!
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
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--- Begin Message ---
http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/Copper+Art/Dscn0333.jpg.html
Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Can you post more about this dual motor rear axle design? Is there a link
to more information about it?
Steve Powers wrote: - Build Jim's special dual motor rear axle. I think you
could get by with dual 7's on a small car...
---------------------------------
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the advice Lee. That's good to know.
I asked the Vicor engineer from support if there was any way the unit
would start below 200vdc, but of course he didn't mention disabling
the input voltage sensing circuit. Guess it's not their policy to
tell people how to hack their hardware.
I would consider trying this out, but i've already sold the unit. For
now I'll probably just keep rotating charged aux batteries until
investing in something with the right spec. Besides, moving these
batteries around helps keep me in shape.
t
On Nov 4, 2006, at 10:11 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
Tony Furr wrote:
The problem is not the output voltage, which could be reduced.
It's the input voltage bottom end. At a low-line of 200vdc, my
144v car won't start the DC-DC converter.
The internal Vicor DC/DC modules themselves will actually work
below their rated voltage. For instance, a 300vdc nominal module is
rated to work at 200-400vdc, but will actually start working at
about 120-140vdc.
However, it can't deliver its rated power output at reduced input
voltage. As the input voltage falls, the input current goes up to
compensate. If you try to get full power at reduced input voltage,
the module will overheat and fail.
So, Vicor includes a little circuit to sense the input voltage, and
disable the modules if it is too low. You can find and defeat this
circuit if you like. Basically, you cut the wire to the "Gate In"
pin of the master control module.
Now the modules will work with your 144vdc pack; but they can burn
up if you ask them to deliver too much current. To prevent this,
use a lower current fuse or circuit breaker in the output. A safe
value for this fuse or breaker is 1/2 the normal rated current for
that module.
Or, you can trim the output voltage down so it never tries to
deliver full power. The ones you have are apparently rated for 14v
to 30.8v; if adjusted to 14v, it should never deliver more than
half its rated power anyway.
If you got a good price on the unit and like it, I'd defeat the
undervoltage shutdown, and adjust the output down to 14v, and try
it on your 144v pack. Measure the baseplate temperature; if it gets
too hot to comfortably leave your hand on, then you need to further
reduce the output power with a lower-rated fuse or circuit breaker
as described above. Good luck!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Nov 2006 at 10:31, John wrote:
> The Trojan dealer must not want to deal with individuals because their
> prices seemed high relative to US Battery.
They are always higher, and my experience has also been that Trojan and
their dealers are not very interested in dealing with individuals. US
Battery has always been more EV-hobbyist-friendly. Of course YMMV.
> With US Battery the regional distributor located about 1.5 hour drive
> away was more than willing to deal with me.
Again in my own experience, they'll also supply whatever terminals you want,
and are pretty good about matching dates and providing fresh batteries if
you ask.
> I'm pretty sure they said free delivery and L posts would be included
> at those prices.
I don't know how good a price that is, given the runup in lead lately. They
used to be $45-55 each (sigh).
Free delivery is a nice bonus. I had to pay around $100 (IIRC) for delivery
of my last batch. But they delivered them to my driveway (see below).
> Any tips from experienced buyers on additional things to request.
Ask for individual cell caps, rather than the 3-in-one speed caps. The
speed caps have always leaked for me.
> Are there devices available that make it easier to lift/move individual
> batteries (like ice tongs designed for batteries?)
US Battery supplies (at least they have for a me) a lifting strap with each
order. Good thing, since I seem to lose them. It fits into lifting tabs on
the top of each battery.
There are some cheap generic straps available at auto stores that lift
batteries by the posts. Don't ever use these, except on batteries you are
discarding. They often break the seals between the posts and the case.
When my last batch arrived on the truck, the driver lowered them onto the
roadway in front of my driveway with the truck's lift. Then he helped me
move them off the pallet and onto the driveway. I hauled them up to the
garage after he left.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Agreed that you can't get lift (or downforce) without some drag. I'm not sure
it is always a monotonic relationship that increasing downforce increases drag,
however. Air dams and side skirts improve both aerodynamics and downforce --
how could you get greater aerodynamic improvement, with less downforce, in that
case? Another example is lowering the front of the car -- it lessens drag and
improves downforce -- how would you lessen the drag even more yet not induce
downforce in this case?
These are honest questions for me -- I want my conversion to be very
aerodynamic.
----- Original Message ----
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2006 11:47:34 AM
Subject: Re: Pickup truck drag
Down force is mearly lift in a downward direction. It's a fundemental
rule of aerodynamics that you can NOT get lift without drag.
Sure it's possible to make modifications that improve aerodynamics and add
downforce, however, if you did the SAME modifications without the
downforce you'd have even better aerodynamics.
Adding downforce increases drag.
>>From a clean sheet of paper perspective, that is correct that increasing
>> downforce increases drag. Given an unaerodynamic car as a starting point,
>> however, it is possible to increase downforce and decrease drag at the
>> same time. It's not easy, and most "aero" kits you see actually hurt
>> aerodynamics, including OEM "wings" on cars.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> ...
>> When you increase down force you INCREASE drag.
>> ...
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--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Hey that's what I've been trying to say. The controller is the easy
part. There is no question in my mind that a microcontroller is a
much better choice than discretes for driving the signals. It's easy,
featured, safe, and reliable, relatively speaking. In the case of a
3-ph drive, it will compress months or years of board development
requiring a lot of experience into a few weeks of code development-
or, if you have experience, only a few days.
However, it's not going to make the transistors, transistor drivers,
capacitors, diodes, and kiloamp-capable interconnects any easier or
cheaper. Some of the conversation here seems to be leaning towards
"once we have a way to make a PWM signal, we basically have an open
source controller!" OK, enthusiasm is good, keep it up, but there is
a world of difference between having a controller and having the easy
part of it.
Actually, I'm saying that once we have a way to make a PWM, monitor and
limit the currents and voltages, add a few safety rules (like
interlocks, precharge startups), and have a well documented power stage
(aka how to assemble it so as not to blow it up)... then we would have a
controller. :)
I can only contribute what I know. I can't help you at all with gate
drivers, transistor/diode selection, or thermal considerations. I can
*just* get working PCB out of a simple schematic, and can help with D/D,
A/D and D/A interfacing, but that's about it. I have experience in
realtime digital signal conditioning, embedded network wiring and
protocol design, and most fields of software design, with an emphasis
on C/C++ and ASM in Harvard and Neumann architectures. I even have
plenty of non-professional experience with MCUs and the related IC
peripherals as a hobby.
So what can I do to help?
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
A DC motor controller is a buck converter. It consists of a big
transistor, a big diode, a big capacitor, and a big inductor (usually
provided by the motor itself). The first challenge is to pick these
parts.
The "control" section is just a simple switching regulator IC chip --
any one of a hundred different chips will do. You can even do it
without ICs, a couple dozen discrete transistors, resistors, and
capacitors, if you like. So, the second challenge is to pick these
parts.
Indeed - I actually have a couple of medium power MOSFETs, and a few
different gate driver ICs that I've been playing with. Of course the one
thing I don't have is someone to tell me how to assemble these (and add
some missing pieces) into something that doesn't over heat or *ring* so
darn much... like what I get when simply following the App Notes. And of
course I'm much more likely to spend all my free time debugging a state
machine then trying to get a tempermental power switch for a high
current inductor (motor) working like it should in the notes.
My next question would then be: how do I hobble together a motor and
battery current limit? I have seen a dozen of vary different ways on
various schematics, but none seems to match what I have "frankensteined"
on on hand. How do I add a max and min battery voltage?
When I look at the various schematics, I see a few switching and PWM
parts, but tons of discreet "feature" parts... wouldn't you have to whip
up a new set of PCBs whenever you changed anything? How would the kit
vendors (and there would hopefully be vendors) be able to make money
selling PCBs and kits if they can't order in bulk? I'm not trying to be
difficult, I just see these as real barriers to the whole "people will
work on it together and keep it alive" concept.
I agree that a simple analog controller is great, and that's how you
make good money selling a retail or mass-produced. But is that what is
going to rally a decent-sized group of people together and spend their
weekends and (part) of their vacation money on it? For years to come even...
I'll show you a potential example: Apache. It is waaaaaaay too much to
serve websites. There are a number of individual "open source"
webservers which are as you describe. They have a MUCH better, much more
"to the task at hand" design model. And they are significantly faster,
so much smaller, and they have 90% of the features that 90% of the
people would ever use. But they mostly are the work of one or two
people. They have been unable to garner much momentum, since there are
few people helping out.
So my main concern would be a social one, I guess. Which is quite
relevant since we are talking about a collaborative community effort.
Now if we are talking about the generous work of a couple of
knowledgeable and experienced individuals who then put it into public
domain... which then would be like thttpd or lighttpd in my previous
example. And that would be great and very welcome!
But of course then I don't have very much do help out with, since I am
merely a tinkerer when it comes to electronics... but if the group wants
a non-computer based solution, I would be happy to help in whatever way
I can. Just not sure how...
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Well I got the wiring done today and tested it on my way home. Way more
heat out of it now than before.
Before I had a 120 volt tank heater for a diesel truck to heat the coolant
and a small 12volt pump to circulate it throught the heater core. Kept the
windows deforsted but not the driver.
Now with the 120 volt ceramic heater I can actually feel heat out the
heater. Nice.
The heater element came out of a HoneyWell space heater. Tore it appart and
removed the heater core. The heater came from Lowe's for $39.95. Seems to
be working OK.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: ceramic heater core mounting
Thanks for all the help. I have gotten mine mounted today and the dash
back together. Will finish the wiring tomorrow and see how it works out.'
Thanks
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: RE: ceramic heater core mounting
my post from earlier today doesn't seem to have posted.
I did this and it seems to work fine. I left a little open space above
the wire connections to keep the back preassure down since the ceramic
element has about half as much flow through space as the old core. The
whole heater plenum is high temp thermoplastic with the metal parts only
on the outside so it effectively isolates the element electrically if one
side happened to contact it. I posted a couple pics on my EV Album page:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 8:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: ceramic heater core mounting
I am thinking I seen someone who cut the center out of their original
heater core and mounted the ceramic core in it?
I can't rmember where I seen it or how it was mounted. I am thinking of
doing this and setting it in there with some
kind of high temp silicone sealer surounding it. Will this work????
Tom
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An update for those interested.
With the switch EV Parts, turning the screw counter clock wise makes
the pump shut off sooner. (is that lowering vacuum cutoff point?)
Unfortunately I still have a small leak somewhere in the system but can
hold a vacuum for 5 min before the pump kick in again. This is good
enough for Phase 1, so I can move on to other aspects of the EV project.
John
On Friday, November 3, 2006, at 01:07 AM, Claudio Natoli wrote:
Hello John,
The only adjustable part of the switch looks to be the brass screw.
Which direction would I rotate it to change the cut off point in the
direction I need?
Any idea how many turns are necessary to drop the cutoff point 1 inch?
If you've still got your gauge installed, you'll quickly see what is
required (sorry, don't have a switch handy at present).
Even without the gauge, with your pump running continuously, you'll
quickly discover the right direction -- its the direction that turns
the pump off :-)
If I didn't have any instrumentation, I'd start with a small (say,
quarter) turn, and then make expanding turns in opposite directions.
Cheers,
Claudio
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
I'm gratified to see the enthusiasm that you (and others) are bringing
to this discussion. You certainly know a lot about computer design.
These are great ideas if one were designing a computer system.
The software and electronic/mechanical world can have much more in
common then most seem to realize.
I've actually used a few of the discreet circuits and designs I've come
across while part of the list in my work. Making software versions of
various ingenious electronic and mechanical solutions has helped sharpen
my coding and general design skills quite a bit over the years. They
have also in cases provided a great benefit in efficiency and performance.
Thanks to everyone who has been willing to share their ideas and hard
work. Just a reminder that they may be used in ways you haven't thought
of... no matter how outlandish. I can only hope some of my ideas might
give someone an inspiration for a purely electronic version of a
particular approach.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Blazer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was looking at your BMS with NiMH batteries in mind now. You might
not remember but a while back I was trying to get you to do a bulk
order for use on AGM batteries. I would still be willing to buy in
quantity for the best prices and sell at the quantity price break
to all who is interested in making one.
Don, you may have meant to send this to me directly, but since it went
to the EV list, I'll answer it here.
Yes, I have been working on a new version of my Battery Balancer for
over a year now. Unfortunately, it is a home project, and so has a low
priority compared to "real work" and the "honey do" list.
At present, I have the new Relay board design done, and can order them
any time. I have the new Control board about 75% done. But there are
some loose ends that I can't help but keep tinkering with.
Specifically, the old control board used an external digital multimeter
with isolated RS-232 output to measure battery voltage and current. They
cost $50-$100. I'm experimenting with a cheaper on-board circuit to do
this (since everyone is obsessed with cost).
I am really at the point where I need to just "shoot the engineer, and
ship it!" I have several people who have been very patient, and just
need to go ahead and order the boards for them, saving any further
improvements for the next go-around.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe the segway laws usually include a top speed. something like
10-12 mph, not vbery useful for a pusher trailer.
Totally irrelevent however, since trailers are already legal and included
in every states current laws. No state currently has a law AGAINST pusher
trailers, so why fight a battle that isn't there?
P.s. Self balancing is a pretty definitive description that means it
balances by itself. If it's attached to something, then it's not self
balancing.
> Michael Perry wrote:
>> I inquired further and was told that no vehicle is legal, unless
>> specified
>> in the Oregon Statutes.
>
> Here's a clever/stupid idea. Dean Kamen has paid to get laws on the
> books in virtually every state to allow his Segway. The laws usually
> state a "two wheel, self balancing, non tandem" vehicle is not regulated
> by any existing vehicle laws (i.e. it's not a car, motorcycle, bicycle,
> skateboard, scooter, etc.), and can be ridden "anywhere a pedestrian can
> legally walk", without a helmet, driver's license, insurance,
> registration, etc.
>
> What if you build a Segway-like device as a pusher trailer? Two wheels,
> side by side (non tandem), and self-balancing because it's attached to
> the vehicle it is pushing.
>
> Same for scooters: My BEST kids came up with at least half a dozen ways
> to make a 2-wheel self-balancing, non-tandem vehicles without any
> gyroscopes, computers, or complex gadgetry.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 1, 2006, at 11:56 AM, Rush wrote:
(in http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf,
they say "Series connection up to four (4) batteries (60 Volt. max
system voltage" what does that mean?
They sell the "U-Charge RT" and the "U-charge XP" the RT can have in
series up to 4 units (60v) and the XP can have I quote "Series
connection up to 450 V maximum system voltage"
-Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Weathers wrote:
<SNIP>
Your answer leads to another question, though. If some of the power
is coming from your EV batteries, then you're leaving the EV drive
system "live" while also running on the pusher. This brings up two issues:
1) How do the two drive systems interact? I'd think that the ICE +
cruise control would resist the EV tugging on it and waste
energy. I'm not sure how the EV would respond to being pushed by
the ICE, but I'd guess there wouldn't be a problem as long as you
kept the RPMs below the 'splode speed. Ideally you'd sync the two
closely enough that you'd get the benefits of a hybrid - ICE for
steady long-distance travel, EV for quick acceleration. How
difficult do you think this would be?
Actually, towing the pusher in "EV mode" when the pusher is running
takes less power than driving the EV on its own without the pusher
attached. Since the pusher is an automatic, the tendency to creep
that all automatics have actually provides some added thrust even at
idle. It is a bit odd feeling the pusher's trans shifting up through
the gears though. Once up to speed and with the cruise engaged, the
EV power train is just coasting, but is always available for added
power by just pressing down on the accelerator.
2) Eventually you'll be charging the EV's pack from the pusher
trailer while going down the road. What kind of issues do you need
to consider when you have an EV that can be recharged while
driving? That's pretty new territory - most EVs have interlocks
that prevent the drive system from working if the charger is plugged in.
I won't be running the generator output through the charger. The
idea is to convert it straight to DC and control the output voltage
and current by regulating the voltage of the field
windings. Basically, pretty close to what a conventional ICE voltage
regulator does. The system would be setup so the max voltage was
somewhat short of full charge to insure the batteries don't get fried.
<SNIP>
Mounting is the real problem, the engine compartment is so
tight. I have been considering mounting one in the EV instead and
driving it from the tail shaft. This would keep all the high
voltage circuits inside the EV and maybe allow using it for regen
when the pusher isn't attached.
I gave that some thought last night. Could you replace the
alternator with the Power-Mite? Then use a 110v battery charger to
keep the battery charged? You'd have more flexibility in placing
the charger than the generator. You could easily end up with a more
efficient charging system, and with a smart charger the starting
battery should last longer too.
There seems to be enough room where the alternator is currently
mounted, and I have seen a Civic with a second alternator where the
A/C compressor goes. Since the pusher doesn't need A/C, :^) that
seems like a good spot for the existing alternator.
I don't know the relative sizes of your alternator and the
Power-Mite, so this might be way off base.
Well the alternator is tiny and the Power-Mite is pretty huge, but
hopefully I can arrange something. I am about to pull the engine
from a same year CRX, so while it is on the stand I will use it to
mock up mounting bracket arrangement.
Thanks for building this project, and thanks again for sharing the
info with us. And of course for the EV Album too!
Glad to be of service!
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tony,
Why rotate batteries?
I charge my 12v Aux battery by plugging a power supply
into the cigarette lighter plug every night and feeding
the battery under the hood at the same time as feeding
the batteries under the bed.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Tony Furr
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 10:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: FS: Vicor DC-DC Converter
Thanks for the advice Lee. That's good to know.
I asked the Vicor engineer from support if there was any way the unit
would start below 200vdc, but of course he didn't mention disabling
the input voltage sensing circuit. Guess it's not their policy to
tell people how to hack their hardware.
I would consider trying this out, but i've already sold the unit. For
now I'll probably just keep rotating charged aux batteries until
investing in something with the right spec. Besides, moving these
batteries around helps keep me in shape.
t
On Nov 4, 2006, at 10:11 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
> Tony Furr wrote:
>> The problem is not the output voltage, which could be reduced.
>> It's the input voltage bottom end. At a low-line of 200vdc, my
>> 144v car won't start the DC-DC converter.
>
> The internal Vicor DC/DC modules themselves will actually work
> below their rated voltage. For instance, a 300vdc nominal module is
> rated to work at 200-400vdc, but will actually start working at
> about 120-140vdc.
>
> However, it can't deliver its rated power output at reduced input
> voltage. As the input voltage falls, the input current goes up to
> compensate. If you try to get full power at reduced input voltage,
> the module will overheat and fail.
>
> So, Vicor includes a little circuit to sense the input voltage, and
> disable the modules if it is too low. You can find and defeat this
> circuit if you like. Basically, you cut the wire to the "Gate In"
> pin of the master control module.
>
> Now the modules will work with your 144vdc pack; but they can burn
> up if you ask them to deliver too much current. To prevent this,
> use a lower current fuse or circuit breaker in the output. A safe
> value for this fuse or breaker is 1/2 the normal rated current for
> that module.
>
> Or, you can trim the output voltage down so it never tries to
> deliver full power. The ones you have are apparently rated for 14v
> to 30.8v; if adjusted to 14v, it should never deliver more than
> half its rated power anyway.
>
> If you got a good price on the unit and like it, I'd defeat the
> undervoltage shutdown, and adjust the output down to 14v, and try
> it on your 144v pack. Measure the baseplate temperature; if it gets
> too hot to comfortably leave your hand on, then you need to further
> reduce the output power with a lower-rated fuse or circuit breaker
> as described above. Good luck!
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
> I want my conversion to be very aerodynamic.
Then don't start with a pickup.
Use any modern family sedan and you will have
about twice as good aerodynamics (Cd) as a pickup
or choose a 2-seater that you like based on even
lower Cd, your choice.
If you want a pichup because you use it as a utility
vehicle (not to commute in to work with your briefcase)
then all you can do is check the aero mods that someone
posted some pictures of a while ago, including a
tapered bed cover and belly pan.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 11:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Pickup truck drag
Agreed that you can't get lift (or downforce) without some drag. I'm not
sure it is always a monotonic relationship that increasing downforce
increases drag, however. Air dams and side skirts improve both aerodynamics
and downforce -- how could you get greater aerodynamic improvement, with
less downforce, in that case? Another example is lowering the front of the
car -- it lessens drag and improves downforce -- how would you lessen the
drag even more yet not induce downforce in this case?
These are honest questions for me -- I want my conversion to be very
aerodynamic.
----- Original Message ----
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2006 11:47:34 AM
Subject: Re: Pickup truck drag
Down force is mearly lift in a downward direction. It's a fundemental
rule of aerodynamics that you can NOT get lift without drag.
Sure it's possible to make modifications that improve aerodynamics and add
downforce, however, if you did the SAME modifications without the
downforce you'd have even better aerodynamics.
Adding downforce increases drag.
>>From a clean sheet of paper perspective, that is correct that increasing
>> downforce increases drag. Given an unaerodynamic car as a starting point,
>> however, it is possible to increase downforce and decrease drag at the
>> same time. It's not easy, and most "aero" kits you see actually hurt
>> aerodynamics, including OEM "wings" on cars.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> ...
>> When you increase down force you INCREASE drag.
>> ...
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