EV Digest 6097
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: FS: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) 91 S-10 Glider
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Current bottleneck when charging floodies
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) A better DCDC; was Vicor
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: IOTA DC/DC VOLTAGE LIMITS?
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Buying batteries (price quotes included)
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: IHRA Racing
by "Doc Kennedy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Input requested on heater assembly
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Zapi Controllers, SepEx design
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Wonderful NEWS - Advanced Vehicle Initiative
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Buying batteries (price quotes included)
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Pickup truck drag
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Jim's Special Dual Motor Rear Axle, was: EV pusher Trailer
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Pickup truck drag
by Jim Walls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: FS: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Cor,
I just remembered that I still have a few of the EV Ranger DC/DCs around
that would be an exact match for your needs. As I recall they're actually
made by Lambda with a 100A output. They're water cooled, but if you put one
in a different case with a fan I think you could push at least 50A. They're
brand new in the original boxes. I don't remember what I paid for them, but
if you want one, you can have it for $175 (they're about $3,000 from Ford).
Let me know off list.
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just saw this on eBay, item # 250045999002 . It's a 91 S-10 Blazer that
had the bad engine removed, but comes with a late model Vortec that never
got installed. Someone probably could buy this and sell the Vortec for more
than what they pay for the whole thing and still have a great start for a
conversion. It's located in the Portland, OR area.
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The electric pusher trailer keeps coming up, primarily brcause it makes logical
sense to a lot of people. I guess great minds think alike.
I also thought about this a lot, and every time it comes up, I go over it
again in my head. What I came up with is that as a trailer, it really doesn't
make sense for many of the reasons Mike already brought up.
But, what does make sense (to me) is something like the following:
- Light weight small front wheel drive car (I prefer the automatic), power
nothing though ... Something like an early Metro not well equiped.
- Remove existing rear axle, suspension, fuel tank, ... In other words, make
some room back there, reroute the exhaust.
- Build Jim's special dual motor rear axle. I think you could get by with
dual 7's on a small car. No way to change gear ratios, so it is going to need
a lot of power.
- 10 x 12 V = 120 V AGM batts in a special box like structure where the back
seat was. Low as possible. Try to keep the CG balanced front to back.
- 1k Zilla with parallel series for the 2 motors.
- seperate throttle for the electric motors.
- Then, you still need to make provisions for a small fuel tank (at least 4
gal) and rerouting the exhaust (maybe out the side in front of the axle).
- I don't know how the rear brakes would work, getting them balanced with the
front and all, but I'm sure someone has already figured this out.
It works as follows:
- Drive it in EV mode (only electric) until the batts can give no more. You
have seperate throttle for the EV mode, and the ICE is completely off. That's
why it has to have no power options. This would be about 12 - 15 miles with
all that weight and small batt pack. Then, start up the ICE and you will never
get stranded. It has unlimited range, can do 65 MPH, decent acceleration, it
an all electric, and wouldn't cost all that much in comparison to having and
supporting two cars (one ICE and one EV).
My target price for the hybrid add on - $8500 in parts and "free labor" if
you can get someone with skills interested in building it with / for you. I
don't know if that can be done, but it sure would meet my needs and makes more
sense to me than spending $12k on a real nice EV and then having to support 2
cars. A commercial true plug in hybrid is still several years off and will be
in the $40k range (I assume) even on a mass scale ... A little too much for my
pocket book, when i could have the above for $8500 (if that is possible).
I was planning to propose the idea to Steve Clunn when I see him at the
Battery Beach Burnout. I'm sure he has the skills to make it happen, but maybe
not the time ...
Any thoughts?
Steve
Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 08:56 PM 11/2/2006, you wrote:
>Mike, would you consider sharing more info on how this unit works? How do
>you control the throttle and kick it into neutral when you are at speed? Do
>you keep the original brakes and use them?
The manual throttle control is a motorcycle twist grip on the EV's
parking brake handle, and a pair of extended cables that disconnect
at the tongue. It was just an expedient solution, I plan to add a
second potbox on the throttle pedal and use it to control a servo in
the pusher. The EV's transmission is either left in fourth gear or
neutral. The pusher currently has no brakes, but I am planning to
put them on. It is light enough to not legally require them, but I
would feel safer to include them. The plan is to add a surge brake
couple designed for hydraulic disc brakes, and then couple that to
the stock Honda front discs. A solenoid valve, the kind used on boat
trailers to allow them to back up, will be wired through a relay to
the brake lights. Basically, the valve will be closed preventing the
brakes from applying, unless the brake lights are on. This will
allow the pusher to push without triggering the brakes.
My concern with the EV pusher concept is you would be pushing a lot
more weight than a conventional EV and that would mean quite a bit of
stress on the batteries.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
---------------------------------
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fifteen lead pack yes, but you can profit a lot not having to change your
pack until 10 years or more...
BUT problem even Valence people, which i know they read the list, seems not
wanting to answer this major question...
Am i alone wanting to know what Valence say about calendar life ?
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> Mike wrote -
>
> > I'm interested as well. I'll take 120V's worth:) With or w/o BMS?
>
> According to what JJ just wrote -
>
> >U1-12XP/RT - $860 usd
> >U24-12XP/RT - $2030 usd
> >U27-12XP/RT - $2550 usd
> >UEV-18XP - $1935 usd
> >U-BMS - $135 usd
> >U-BDI - $40 usd
>
> My understand is that a BMS *IS* needed so -
> A 120v pack of U1's would be (10 x $860) $8600
> with a 40ah rating at c/5
> Plus the BMS (10 x 135), $1350 would be $9,950
>
> A 120v pack of U24's would be (10x2030) $20300
> with a 100ah rating at c/5
> plus the BMS, $1350, would be a total of $21650
>
> A 120 v pack of U27's would be (10x2550) $25500
> with a 130 ah rating at c/5
> plus the BMX, $1350, would be $26850
>
> (in http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20RT%20DS%20Jan06.pdf, they
say "Series connection up to four (4) batteries (60 Volt. max system
voltage" what does that mean?)
>
> Trojan T-125's, about $90 each now, in a 120 v pack would be (90 x 20)
$1800,
> with a 195 ah rating at c/5.
>
> The Valances are good for "Thousands of cycles", lets say 2,500. Trojan
T-125's are good for approx 500 cycles to 50%DOD. So if we compare the U27
and the T-125, the T-125 is better in terms of ah by about 50% (at c/5
rating, don't know what it would be at c/1, no numbers on valance website).
Cycle wise the U27's are 5 times better, so 5 packs of T-125's would cost
(5x1800) $9,000, so price wise the T-125's are better again. In fact you can
get (26850/1800) 14.91 packs of T-125's for the price of 1 U27.
> FIFTEEN!!!!!!!! Wow..... and 50% more ah....
> Obviously the lead acids weigh more, have more voltage sag, won't
discharge as deeply, etc.... have lots of 'problems' compared to the Lion's,
but from a straight dollars to donuts comparison, I'll stay with the lead
acids.
>
> I don't mean to be a nay sayer here... but I just feel that the
overwhelming evidence shows that the 'exotic' batteries are so far out of my
league, and in most cases the majority of the listee's that most of the time
we talk about them, we forget the absurdly high price.
>
> >From what I have learned here there are other alternative ways of
increasing the lead acids ability to perform
> - Lee Harts Battery Balancer (18k miles on a nearly 8-year-old Concorde
AGM pack, most of these miles were accumulated using his Battery Balancer),
> - Rich Rudman's Mk3 battery regulators
> - PowerCheq's
> - BattEq by Smartspark Energy Systems, they say "BattEQ can increase life
by 30 to 500%"
> - Jim Straubel's Battery Monitor
> - Badicheq from Mentzer Electronics
> and there are things to do with motors, and controllers etc....
>
> FIFTEEN PACKS.............
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About the generator. Years ago I bought a unit which would supply "house
current" from my alternator. As I recall, it bypassed the voltage regulator and
allowed the voltage to vary with rotation speed. It had a neon bulb that would
light at 90v. So you rev up the motor until the light lights. I assume that it
was producing pulsating DC. It allowed me to run an electric chain saw.
I still have the unit installed and could investigate further if more info
would be of use. It looks to me like the "Mighty Mite" is just a standard
alternator.
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2006 7:38:16 AM
Subject: Re: EV pusher Trailer
Doug wrote:
>I hadn't seen this one before - it's brilliant! Looks very nice, too.
>Except for the gas tank on the trailer tongue. (That's what the
>black box is, right?)
Yes, it had to go somewhere. It doesn't look nearly that nice in
person, but it does the job. Keep in mind, this was a copy of JB's
and Sharkey's pushers, so I had a concept to follow.
>I'm glad to see that the cruise control idea works. That's how I
>was planning to control a future pusher trailer. But it sounds like
>you're wanting direct control of the pusher's throttle
>now. Why? Safety, performance, both?
I wanted the direct control for two reasons. First, I keep
encountering long stretches of stop and go or slow traffic on the
highway due to road construction. The traffic flow would not permit
the use of the cruise control, and yet would be long enough to run
the EV's batteries down. The second reason is my current battery
pack is in poor shape, and I had a scheduled display out of town and
had to get the EV there. By adding the ability to take off from a
stop on pusher power, I was able to get there and still have 100%
charge showing.
>What kind of gas mileage do you get with the pusher pushing your EV?
>How does it compare to the mileage of the stock Civic that you made
>into the trailer?
It is hard to get a very valid number here since some of the power is
coming from the batteries and currently the pusher can't recharge the
EV. It is reporting about 29 MPG, in mixed city/highway, mostly
city, but I am only on the second fill up since I built it and still
have a lot to sort out. My other ICE Civic gets about 28 in town and
about 34 highway, so all the extra weight and complexity has to have
has some negative effect. I suspect with everything tweaked up a bit
it could get better.
>How about top speed?
I am not really sure. It was cruising happily at 78 MPH indicated,
but the pusher engine is pretty old and tired so I don't want to blow
it up finding out.
>Still considering the Power-Mite generator? New, they cost more
>than four times what you paid for the donor.... Do you have a better source?
Yes, I have two of the Power-Mite style generators I picked up on
eBay for about $30, hopefully I can get one to work. Mounting is the
real problem, the engine compartment is so tight. I have been
considering mounting one in the EV instead and driving it from the
tail shaft. This would keep all the high voltage circuits inside the
EV and maybe allow using it for regen when the pusher isn't attached.
>I'd really like someone to produce a pusher trailer kit, or a set of
>plans, or a video, or something like the books we have on converting
>EVs. I can't imagine who would take the time, though. The market
>can't be very large.
Interesting idea.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
** Reply to message from Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Sat, 4 Nov 2006
05:36:02 -0800 (PST)
> It works as follows:
> - Drive it in EV mode (only electric) until the batts can give no more. You
> have seperate throttle for the EV mode, and the ICE is completely off. That's
> why it has to have no power options. This would be about 12 - 15 miles with
> all that weight and small batt pack. Then, start up the ICE and you will
> never
> get stranded. It has unlimited range, can do 65 MPH, decent acceleration, it
> an all electric, and wouldn't cost all that much in comparison to having and
> supporting two cars (one ICE and one EV).
> I was planning to propose the idea to Steve Clunn when I see him at the
> Battery Beach Burnout. I'm sure he has the skills to make it happen, but
> maybe
> not the time ...
>
> Any thoughts?
The problem is, inside the tranny, grease is only slung onto the "coasting"
(aka "overrunning") gears by the rotation of the input shaft. If the engine is
not running, that shaft is not spinning. You will have to modify the tranny to
get grease to flow to those gears somehow. Or, if you could use locking hubs
(like many 4-wheel-drive vehicles) - that would allow the tranny to stop
spinning completely.
Dale Curren
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What does it mean when your charger is set for 17-20A;
current knob about 175, and the batteries start
tapering the current off to 7A for awhile (like at
158V on a 144V pack?
Gradually the current and voltage both rise, but it's
weird and never used to do this. Does it indicate
aging batteries?
Thanks,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups
(http://groups.yahoo.com)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Remember when DCP put out a DCDC that not only could
send out 330 watts, but also had the DCDC converter to
run your e-meter off of?
What do you think the market is for a similar unit,
built around the Vicor chip, with a dedicated +/- 12V
line for the E-meter, which would be optional off; ie,
you could allow the e-meter to stay on constantly, and
keep track of deep discharges, or you could keep it
off to minimize current parasiting on the Aux line?
Thanks,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups
(http://groups.yahoo.com)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks!
On Nov 3, 2006, at 10:34 PM, Ricky Suiter wrote:
I originally bought a 220vac version for my conversion, but I had
initially intended on a higher voltage pack. It worked on a 144
volt pack, but only on a hot charge. It would brown out and shut
down after I started driving. If I didn't have a 12 volt battery it
would have been more of a problem. I since swapped to a 120vac
version and it's been on all the time with no issues.
So the absolute lower limit for a DLS-220-55 is right about 150
volts DC. I think you could probably get away with a 220vac version
on a 156 volt pack as a lower limit. If I were running a 192 volt
pack I'd deffinitely have the 220vac version.
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight - Sold
06 Civic IMA
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on
the new Yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I'm at the point of ordering my batteries.
I have already decided to use 6v flooded lead acid batteries. I called
the "local" Trojan and US Battery dealers based on each companies
websites.
The Trojan dealer must not want to deal with individuals because their
prices seemed high relative to US Battery.
T-105 $90 (original quote of $100 before I mentioned I want 24)
T-125 $125
T-145 $217
plus $75 to deliver. The distributor directed me to a somewhat local
dealer who quoted the above prices. I didn't even ask about post types.
With US Battery the regional distributor located about 1.5 hour drive
away was more than willing to deal with me.
US-125 $79.95
US-145 $91.95
These prices were for a set of 24. I need to call back and confirm but
I'm pretty sure they said free delivery and L posts would be included
at those prices.
I may be able to do my round trip work commute on one charge with the
US-145's and my vehicle is a pickup truck so the extra weight is
workable. I plan to go with them.
Any tips from experienced buyers on additional things to request.
I recall something about requesting a set with the same date code.
Should I request a date code within some number of days, weeks, months?
It looks like they would be delivered on a pallet so I will need to
move them to my garage individually.
Are there devices available that make it easier to lift/move individual
batteries (like ice tongs designed for batteries?)
Thanks
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I ran my 48v Dragbike several times at the local IHRA track outside
Radford, Va. this year in prep for the Power of DC #6.
The Track had a time and tune Friday night session and once I
passed the inspection, according to the NEDRA/NHRA rules
I was clear to run as often as I wanted. The inspector was a bit
taken back that that I was totally compliant and Electric.
Good luck up there and tell them that EV Dragsters run at Shelor
MotorMile raceway in Virginia.
Doc Kennedy, Mountain Lightning Racing
On 11/4/06, Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are electric dragsters allowed to race uner IHRA rules?
Is there an electronic copy of the IHRA rules for free download, or do
they make you buy the rulebook?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John wrote:
In particular I would like opinions on the use JB weld to "weld" nuts to
the stock top and bottom, and JB Weld to fasten a thermal switch to the
heater assembly.
JB Weld is an epoxy glue with metal dust added. Like all epoxies, it
softens at high temperatures, so it may be a poor choice for a heater.
The thermal switch is in series with the 12v that supply to the HV relay
package (from KTA) . Also in this circuit is the blower relay that is
stock on the truck and a rocker switch that will be mounted on the dash.
The part shown is a thermal fuse, not a switch. It opens if it ever gets
too hot, and remains open forever.
There should also have been a thermal switch, which is a bimetallic
switch that opens if it gets too hot, and closes when it cools back down.
Both of these parts from the stock heater are AC only, and won't
reliably work over about 30 volts DC.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark E. Hanson wrote:
Having a SepEx winding doesn't mean the field is weaker.
No, but the whole point of having a sepex motor is so you can weaken the
field to control its speed or get regen.
If you run a sepex motor with full field all the time, it behaves just
like a PM motor. You won't have any problems with brush arcing; but it
will also run very slow, and you can't use it for regen unless the rpm
is exactly right for your pack voltage.
The caveat with SepEx is you can't advance the timing to get better
performance in the forward direction.
Well, you can... but without interpoles, you can only optimize the brush
position for one particular mode of operation; motor or generator,
direction of rotation, high or low current, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great NEW Site. Lots of Great pictures. Good PR for both the AVI,
Chelane County Washington, PHEV's, Electric Vehicles, and the Seattle EV
Association ...and Manzanita Micro.
Great Work Everybody ! Please Check it out !
AVI Home Page
http://www.plugincenter.com/
Congratulations... Now on to #-2 !!!! (our #3!)
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My USBs have a pair of lift points molded into the top. Hooking a rubber strap
with wire hooks at each end creates a handle that works very well. I think the
battery dealer gave it to me, but it shouldn't cost over a couple $.
I too am going to be buying batteries soon. My thought would be to go to the
dealer to pick them up. If they are delivered there is not much you can do if
they don't meet your specs.
The USBs have their date stamped into the top (like JAN 21). I assume that is
date of mfg. Some have suggested that it is a good idea to have all the same
date. Another suggestion I got was to check that the electrolyte was at the
same level in all cells. The one giving the advice said that the factory didn't
do a good job in the filling and that the dealer should add electrolyte to the
low ones otherwise you would end up with different SG in cells when you added
water.
This is all hearsay. I'm interested in what advice you receive.
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2006 10:31:35 AM
Subject: Buying batteries (price quotes included)
I think I'm at the point of ordering my batteries.
I have already decided to use 6v flooded lead acid batteries. I called
the "local" Trojan and US Battery dealers based on each companies
websites.
The Trojan dealer must not want to deal with individuals because their
prices seemed high relative to US Battery.
T-105 $90 (original quote of $100 before I mentioned I want 24)
T-125 $125
T-145 $217
plus $75 to deliver. The distributor directed me to a somewhat local
dealer who quoted the above prices. I didn't even ask about post types.
With US Battery the regional distributor located about 1.5 hour drive
away was more than willing to deal with me.
US-125 $79.95
US-145 $91.95
These prices were for a set of 24. I need to call back and confirm but
I'm pretty sure they said free delivery and L posts would be included
at those prices.
I may be able to do my round trip work commute on one charge with the
US-145's and my vehicle is a pickup truck so the extra weight is
workable. I plan to go with them.
Any tips from experienced buyers on additional things to request.
I recall something about requesting a set with the same date code.
Should I request a date code within some number of days, weeks, months?
It looks like they would be delivered on a pallet so I will need to
move them to my garage individually.
Are there devices available that make it easier to lift/move individual
batteries (like ice tongs designed for batteries?)
Thanks
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter wrote -
>>> It may that your BS meter is busted Peter...
>>>
>>> Let's just run some simple numbers, go with the original Cd of 0.47
>> with the gate up. Lower the gate and you reduce the drag by, let's say
>> 0.11, and if the downward force increases by 0.05, then you have a net
>> reduction of Cd by 0.06, so the Cd then becomes 0.41. I think that you
>> forgot about the fact that lowering the tailgate REDUCES drag, and
>> only wanted to think about downward force.
>
> Excuse me, but as was explained in the recently reference R&T artical,
> lowering the tail gate INCREAES drag and REDUCES downforce.
I'm not going to get in a pissing match here Peter, but had you read my email
you would have seen that my source states that lowering the tailgate "ADDS to
the rear downforce and at the same time REDUCES drag". (emphasis mine)
In fact in that same article which you referenced, had you read its entirety,
you would have seen, "Indeed, there was one case, a 2001 Ford F-150 standard
cab, where lowering the tailgate actually improved CD, albeit insignificantly,
from 0.5230 to 0.5215. (And, yes, pickup trucks are bricks aerodynamically.)"
So even the article says that lowering the tailgate CAN REDUCE the Cd.
> Regardless, the change in Cd is pretty small for changing the tailgate
> position. If you are going to quote numbers, may I sugest you look them
> up rather than making them up?
It was just an example Peter, the idea being that if one of the 2 numbers is
larger than the other, then it does reduce the overall drag. Just an example...
My point is that not all pickup trucks are configured the same and so act
differently. To say categorically that lowering the tailgate reduces or
increases drag is a false statement, as we now know. We may say 'in
general....' but we cannot say 'all pickups react this way'.
Hope this helps,
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can you post more about this dual motor rear axle design? Is there a link
to more information about it?
Steve Powers wrote: - Build Jim's special dual motor rear axle. I think you
could get by with dual 7's on a small car...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges kirjoitti 4.11.2006 kello 15.19:
Am i alone wanting to know what Valence say about calendar life ?
No, this is a good question you have raised. Maybe they don´t know it
at Valence??
Do we know the calendar life of other lithium batteries? Kokam? TS?
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
Peter wrote -
Excuse me, but as was explained in the recently reference R&T artical,
lowering the tail gate INCREAES drag and REDUCES downforce.
I'm not going to get in a pissing match here Peter, but had you read my email you would
have seen that my source states that lowering the tailgate "ADDS to the rear
downforce and at the same time REDUCES drag". (emphasis mine)
For whatever it's worth, the MythBusters have tested this one several
times and consistently get lower fuel consumption with the tailgate up...
--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-TS:
i don't know
-Kokam:
CEO answered me honestly: 5 years until important capacity loss (he admitted
50% was possible)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> Philippe Borges kirjoitti 4.11.2006 kello 15.19:
>
> > Am i alone wanting to know what Valence say about calendar life ?
>
> No, this is a good question you have raised. Maybe they don´t know it
> at Valence??
>
> Do we know the calendar life of other lithium batteries? Kokam? TS?
>
> Osmo
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
a controller would need 2 microcontrollers... not effective/reliable
> to drive the main transistors through isolated signals... not practical
to read analog signals (like a pedal) through optoisolators... optically
isolated serial link between them... I'd want a second external serial
port for talking to a computer, palm pilot, EVilBus, whatever.
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
I prefer a "LV" and a "HV" split... I2C/SPI seems better suited...
use EUSART for terminal chatter and SSP for inter-chip communication...
I'm gratified to see the enthusiasm that you (and others) are bringing
to this discussion. You certainly know a lot about computer design.
These are great ideas if one were designing a computer system.
But, a DC motor controller is not a computer. It is basically just a big
dumb high-power switch. None of the things you mentioned are necessary
or even relevant to the controller itself. They are the "bells and
whistles" that one can add to a working motor controller, to provide
dashboard displays, to remotely set its operating limits, for data
logging, etc. These are nice, and some may even feel they are essential;
but they have nothing to do with controlling the motor.
A DC motor controller is a buck converter. It consists of a big
transistor, a big diode, a big capacitor, and a big inductor (usually
provided by the motor itself). The first challenge is to pick these parts.
The "control" section is just a simple switching regulator IC chip --
any one of a hundred different chips will do. You can even do it without
ICs, a couple dozen discrete transistors, resistors, and capacitors, if
you like. So, the second challenge is to pick these parts.
The third challenge is to decide exactly how you wire up the high-power
section. You have to keep the leads as short and thick as possible. It
is extremely difficult to use PC boards for this; buss bars or other
techniques are better.
Finally, there is the thermal design; how to get the heat out of it.
Poor thermal design means you can't even get half the rated power out of
your expensive semiconductors. It usually involves big expensive
heatsinks and complex machining.
Let's concentrate on these area first. These are the hard parts, where
schematics don't provide much help, and most people have little or no
experience. Once you get the power section working, then you can debate
what microcontroller to use for your dash display, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
Someone (Lee?) messed up their quoting. I did *not* say "No programming
head or computer needed." with regards to the programming of motor
controllers. In fact, I said the opposite, that I actually *favor*
software programming as opposed to analog settings (i.e. potentiometers,
DIP Switches, etc). This is a feature I really like about the Zillas.
Are you aware that the Zilla is actually TWO separate boxes? One is the
motor controller itself -- it's basically a dumb box, like the Curtis.
The second is the "hairball" -- it has the computer.
If you're going to use a computer, this is how I think it should be
designed. A standalone "dumb" controller, that is completely
self-contained and has its own hardwired voltage/current/temperature
limits (like the Curtis et.al.) Then, a separate (optional) computer,
which can monitor what the controller is doing, drive dashboard
displays, do data logging, or generate further reductions in the
controller's operating limits.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
About the generator. Years ago I bought a unit which would supply
"house current" from my alternator. As I recall, it bypassed the
voltage regulator and allowed the voltage to vary with rotation
speed. It had a neon bulb that would light at 90v. So you rev up the
motor until the light lights. I assume that it was producing
pulsating DC. It allowed me to run an electric chain saw.
I still have the unit installed and could investigate further if
more info would be of use. It looks to me like the "Mighty Mite" is
just a standard alternator.
I have one of these "converters" sitting around I picked up in thrift
store still in the shrink rap. Some of these only deliver high
voltage DC, some really wild cycle AC. This is not at all similar to
the Power-Mites. Power-Mites actually resemble old 6 or 12 Volt
generators from the late 50s. A tubular casing and large cast iron
end flanges. I think they actually use the housings from one of
those designs. Internally though they are a completely different
animal. Two large windings and a stator with two slip rings. One of
mine is setup to control output voltage by rpm, the other has
external field connections to allow the voltage to be controlled
independent of rpm. Normally this would cause issues with odd
frequencies, but as I will be converting the output to DC it isn't
very relevant. Neither of mine have the manuals or a rating label,
but everything I have found on the 'Net suggest about 3500 Watt
output. I hope to have one of mine setup for testing in the next few weeks.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey that's what I've been trying to say. The controller is the easy
part. There is no question in my mind that a microcontroller is a much
better choice than discretes for driving the signals. It's easy,
featured, safe, and reliable, relatively speaking. In the case of a
3-ph drive, it will compress months or years of board development
requiring a lot of experience into a few weeks of code development- or,
if you have experience, only a few days.
However, it's not going to make the transistors, transistor drivers,
capacitors, diodes, and kiloamp-capable interconnects any easier or
cheaper. Some of the conversation here seems to be leaning towards
"once we have a way to make a PWM signal, we basically have an open
source controller!" OK, enthusiasm is good, keep it up, but there is a
world of difference between having a controller and having the easy part
of it.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
A DC motor controller is a buck converter. It consists of a big
transistor, a big diode, a big capacitor, and a big inductor (usually
provided by the motor itself). The first challenge is to pick these
parts.
The "control" section is just a simple switching regulator IC chip --
any one of a hundred different chips will do. You can even do it
without ICs, a couple dozen discrete transistors, resistors, and
capacitors, if you like. So, the second challenge is to pick these parts.
The third challenge is to decide exactly how you wire up the
high-power section. You have to keep the leads as short and thick as
possible. It is extremely difficult to use PC boards for this; buss
bars or other techniques are better.
Finally, there is the thermal design; how to get the heat out of it.
Poor thermal design means you can't even get half the rated power out
of your expensive semiconductors. It usually involves big expensive
heatsinks and complex machining.
Let's concentrate on these area first. These are the hard parts, where
schematics don't provide much help, and most people have little or no
experience. Once you get the power section working, then you can
debate what microcontroller to use for your dash display, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If they only have 5 years, then with average mileage of 15,000 a year, you
will only get 75,000 miles out of the batteries and if they cost $25,000 for
a set, that is $5,000 a year. I think I will buy Lead Acid.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Philippe Borges
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 10:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
-TS:
i don't know
-Kokam:
CEO answered me honestly: 5 years until important capacity loss (he admitted
50% was possible)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> Philippe Borges kirjoitti 4.11.2006 kello 15.19:
>
> > Am i alone wanting to know what Valence say about calendar life ?
>
> No, this is a good question you have raised. Maybe they don´t know it
> at Valence??
>
> Do we know the calendar life of other lithium batteries? Kokam? TS?
>
> Osmo
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tony Furr wrote:
The problem is not the output voltage, which could be reduced. It's the
input voltage bottom end. At a low-line of 200vdc, my 144v car won't
start the DC-DC converter.
The internal Vicor DC/DC modules themselves will actually work below
their rated voltage. For instance, a 300vdc nominal module is rated to
work at 200-400vdc, but will actually start working at about 120-140vdc.
However, it can't deliver its rated power output at reduced input
voltage. As the input voltage falls, the input current goes up to
compensate. If you try to get full power at reduced input voltage, the
module will overheat and fail.
So, Vicor includes a little circuit to sense the input voltage, and
disable the modules if it is too low. You can find and defeat this
circuit if you like. Basically, you cut the wire to the "Gate In" pin of
the master control module.
Now the modules will work with your 144vdc pack; but they can burn up if
you ask them to deliver too much current. To prevent this, use a lower
current fuse or circuit breaker in the output. A safe value for this
fuse or breaker is 1/2 the normal rated current for that module.
Or, you can trim the output voltage down so it never tries to deliver
full power. The ones you have are apparently rated for 14v to 30.8v; if
adjusted to 14v, it should never deliver more than half its rated power
anyway.
If you got a good price on the unit and like it, I'd defeat the
undervoltage shutdown, and adjust the output down to 14v, and try it on
your 144v pack. Measure the baseplate temperature; if it gets too hot to
comfortably leave your hand on, then you need to further reduce the
output power with a lower-rated fuse or circuit breaker as described
above. Good luck!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
