EV Digest 6106
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Battery Beach Burnout...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Sources of ceramic heater elements?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV pusher Trailer, Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: speedometer replacement
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) VW Vanagon as Glider?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: speedometer replacement
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: VW Vanagon as Glider?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Sealed lead battery comparison?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Ultra capacitor's
by "Chet Neeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: It's ALIVE!
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Pusher Trailer
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Sealed lead battery comparison?
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Pusher trailer...legal definitions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: [BULK] Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Sealed lead battery comparison?
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: speedometer replacement
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The forward pressure on the tongue when operating in pusher mode is relatively
small compared to the forward pressure in braking mode. That should pretty well
negate concern about the switch and the concern about the hitch operating
backwards from its design. The amount of force generated on the hitch by your
pusher is insignificant compared to stopping a 5000 pound trailer. Compare your
0-60 time with your 60-0 time. F=MA
My only concern would be if the valve is rated for nearly constant engagement.
Normal use is short duration. Is there a normally closed valve available?
It would seem that a valve on the power brake canister would be an easy way to
apply the brakes. Release the vacuum just as you do with the pedal. I haven't
heard of anyone doing this, so probably its a dumb idea.
Your surge brake idea with brake light activation would seem to me to be
doable- and clever. For lots of other more expensive ways check out the RV
dealers. They have the same problem when towing their autos.
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 6:20:06 AM
Subject: Re: EV pusher Trailer
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
RE Surge Brakes
<SNIP>
Hmm, won't that put a lot of pressure on the valve? Seems to me that
>backing up a trailer will have much less force on the surge cylinder than
>pushing a vehicle down the road at highway speeds. Will the valve survive
>this? If it does, will it be able to open with that much pressure on it?
Valid question. Anyone familiar with these kinds of valves?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have just purchased plane tickets to the Battery Beach Burnout!!! :)
Anyone have info about block hotel rooms yet? Etc...
Ken & Heidi
P.S. Heidi's NmG ships today... right on schedule! :) :) :)
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free
AOL Mail and more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Oh boy, I get to agree with David!
David Roden wrote:
On 5 Nov 2006 at 8:27, JS wrote:
Where is a source of ceramic heater elements?
If you're interested in something of higher quality, Canadian EV
sells excellent quality ceramic elements for EVs. The ones I got from Randy
a few years ago were made in Germany, IIRC.
Yes, I agree that the elements Randy sells are the best for use in an
EV. The most important difference I've found, is the way they are
designed to pass more air flow. Unlike the el cheapo ones you can
indeed, scavenge out of import type heaters that have a very tightly
weaved radiant fin grid, the elements from Randy are of a more open grid
design that allows a lot more air to pass through. As installed inside a
conversion vehicle's heater system replacing the original heater core,
the large volume of air from the vehicle's fan is not noticeably
restricted as it can be with the other type of cheap cores. It's
especially important to have the high rate of air flow when wanting to
quickly defog a windshield.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: EV pusher Trailer
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> RE Surge Brakes
>
> <SNIP>
> Hmm, won't that put a lot of pressure on the valve? Seems to me that
> >backing up a trailer will have much less force on the surge cylinder than
> >pushing a vehicle down the road at highway speeds. Will the valve
survive
> >this? If it does, will it be able to open with that much pressure on it?
>
> Valid question. Anyone familiar with these kinds of valves?
> Hi Mike an' All Other Trailer Sailers;
I have rented a number of times the "Car Transporter" Trailer, from You
Haul. It is a great unit, has the surge brakes, and works great! I have
backed this unit up with no difficulty, even though pushing on the coupler
in theory, sets the brakes. But when you are pushing back, you arent pushing
that hard as to set the brakes, is my guess?With an EV aboard you just float
aliong and the braking rate and distance is like you didn't even HAVE the
trailer! I never had to make any panic stops, I don't drive the way people
DO when they NEED panic stops. Ya hang in the right lane and plan ahead,
like running a freight train.
All this legal fadarah, as to if trailers are Legal in pusher mode?
Phooey, Just BUILD and use it! Whop is gunna care? If you get stopped in yur
state and it can't be used? Simply sell it to siomebody else in a more
liberal state!If the pusher trailer is carefully, and neatly done, not a
rolling science project, nobody will even notice.It hasta LOOK and be safe!
My two trailers worth.
Bob
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.28/518 - Release Date: 11/4/06
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have similar instrumentation in my S-10 pickup. It even tells me how many
calories my truck burned each drive :-)
I had to splice in a couple wires to make it reach the rear drums where I
connected up the magnet/reed switch too but it works really well.
Mine was an old schwinn cyclometer I had upgrade from on my Bike-E (non
electric). The only thing I added was a nice little light to see it in the dark
since my dash lights don't work. It could look nice really but I drive a junker
so left it just thrown on in there.
My next EV is my show people ev.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2006 11:44:20 PM
Subject: Re: speedometer replacement
>> I instrumented my trike with a Sigma bicycle speedometer. Cost - $23
Brilliant!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/4/2006 9:26:11 PM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL
> PROTECTED]
> writes:
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 8:40 PM
> Subject: speedometer replacement
>
>
>
>>After tearing my dash board apart in 86 toyota pu, I
>>was wondering about the speedometer. It takes up lots
>>of space, and gives very little information.
>>Is there a ev replacement part that would snap into
>>place for the speed and odometer?
>> What options do I have?
>>
>
>
>
>
> I instrumented my trike with a Sigma bicycle speedometer. Cost - $23
> dollars, delivered.
> Uses a magnet pickup that clips to the spokes. I set the input once on set
> up by calculating the circumference of the wheel involved. Runs off an
> internal lithium battery that's supposed to be good for three years. Also
> tells
> time, total miles, trip miles, speed, top speed achieved since it was last
> cleared. I clear it each night as I plug the charger in. Allows easy KwH
> per
> days' miles calculations.
>
> Matt Parkhouse
> Colorado Springs, CO
> BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
> 1.6 cents a mile
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an opportunity to purchase a VW Vanagon (water-cooled flat four
engine) with a bad automatic transmission for $500. The body, rolling parts
and
steering is sound.
Would this be a practical vehicle for an EV? Should I wait for a standard
transmission vehicle?
Thanks
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can't get changes in elevation on the speedo either
:)
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid Pedestrian
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not this one. It seems as useful as my speedometer. It's a great
> way to
> find out the error of your speedometer and it's an amazing trip
> odometer.
> Lawrence Rhodes.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 10:54 AM
> Subject: Re: speedometer replacement
>
>
> > At 09:57 AM 11/5/2006, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > >A down and dirty speedometer is a GPS. I got an Explorist 300
> from
> > >Walmart.com for 126 dollars. It is very accurate. These would be
> easy
> to
> > >use on motorcycles and scooters or cars with the optional clamp
> holder.
> >
> > That might work as long as you don't change speed quickly or
> > often. GPS tend to respond quite slowly.
> >
> > --
> > John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Nov 2006 at 11:02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have an opportunity to purchase a VW Vanagon (water-cooled flat four
> engine) with a bad automatic transmission for $500.
Check the weight. I may be thinking of a newer generation VW van, but I
seem to recall that these were pretty heavy and had all the aerodynamics of
a brick. They had about the lowest MPG among all minivans at the time.
Some successful conversions have been made of earlier VW Microbuses.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good, then you do not have to bug Otmar, we did all the bugging and we
don't want Otmar to be too buggee or we will never get our Zillas. Roland
Yes we don't want to take Otmar away for the work bench , so any questions
are better answered by the list . I got my 2k a little while ago , and
just got it in the Porsche 912 , that I have 2 9" net gains motors in .
Since the car still has the tranny I don't need reversing contactors but I
would like the series parallel switching . I can do the series / parallel
motor switching with just one set or reversing contactors but I didn't see
this set up in the manual . Has anybody set up the their set up this way .
If I do the s/p switching instead of the controller and take my foot off
the go peddle when switching will this be ok for now .
Steve Clunn
PS O YA i got that ev grin again .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Random thought here: What about doing series in 1st and 2nd gear, and parallel
in 3rd and 4th gear? Then do the switching while shifting.
----- Original Message ----
From: steve clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 9:28:02 AM
Subject: Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
...
I got my 2k a little while ago , and
just got it in the Porsche 912 , that I have 2 9" net gains motors in .
Since the car still has the tranny I don't need reversing contactors but I
would like the series parallel switching . I can do the series / parallel
motor switching with just one set or reversing contactors but I didn't see
this set up in the manual . Has anybody set up the their set up this way .
If I do the s/p switching instead of the controller and take my foot off
the go peddle when switching will this be ok for now .
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- steve clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Since the car still has the tranny I don't need reversing contactors but I
> would like the series parallel switching . I can do the series / parallel
> motor switching with just one set or reversing contactors but I didn't see
> this set up in the manual . Has anybody set up the their set up this way .
Mine is definitely a one motor, one controller car, but I did see some
series/parallel settings
while I was configuring mine last night. The software seems to want to support
series/parallel.
The first diagram in the back of the Zilla manual shows a series/parallel
schematic. Does your
hairball have the second row of connections for the added contactors?
Dave Cover
PS My eMeter prescaler is in, I''ll be charging like a real EVer soon!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hate to beat this dead horse to death, but I have a Vicor unit I'd like to
use and I'm just
double checking to see if it will work. My situation is a little different, so
I don't know if the
same rules apply. I have a Vicor unit (VI-262) that is rated for 300 volt input
(200-400) and 15
volts, 75w output. I'd like to use it to power my eMeter, but I want to make
sure it won't cut out
due to undervoltage. My pack may go as low as 150 volts when discharged. But
since the eMeter
doesn't draw much, will the Vicor handle this Ok?
I realize that a 12v-12v dc-dc hooked up to my house battery would be better,
but I don't have one
of those, and they are not cheap compared to the Vicor I already have (unless
it fries my eMeter.)
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike Willmon wrote:
> > The down side to running without the control as Lee alluded to is that
> > there is no control on the output current as the input voltage sags.
> > In my case the V300A15 module can put out ~40A and I will only be
> > pulling ~18A with headlights, heater fan and accessories.
>
> The Vicors regulate the output voltage. The output current will be
> whatever the load draws at that voltage.
>
> The Vicors have an internal current limit, which on the modules over 5v
> will limit the maximum current to about 105%-125% of rated current. If
> you apply too heavy a load, the voltage sags until the current is within
> this range. So, the *output* is self-protecting.
>
> But when you reduce the input voltage, the input current has to go up as
> it tries to maintain its full power output. This high input current
> causes the module to run hotter. It will fail if asked to do this for
> very long. Vicor specs it at 75% of minimum rated voltage for 1 second
> (170v for a 300v nominal module). They will actually last several
> minutes at full load under this condition (from expensive experience)!
>
> What I was suggesting was not to change the Vicor output; but to change
> its input. Vicors have two input pins; GateIn and GateOut. GateIn is
> normally left open; the module operates normally, at its full rated
> power, with a regulated voltage and current limited output.
>
> If you short GateIn to Input-, it turns the module off. This is how the
> undervoltage shutdown works; they sense the input voltage, and hold
> GateIn low until it rises above the minimum spec. If you cut the wire to
> the GateIn pin, then the module starts working immediately upon
> application of input voltage, even if this voltage is too low. As stated
> above, it will work on low voltages, but will overheat if you try to
> draw full load current at reduced input voltage.
>
> There are several ways to protect the module.
>
> - Pick an fuse that will blow if the input current stays too high
> for too long, indicating excessive output load for that input
> voltage.
> - Pick an output fuse or circuit breaker, to prevent drawing too
> much output current.
> - Put a temperature sensor on the module, to shut it down (short
> GateIn to Input-) if it gets hot. This isn't as good because it
> may respond too slowly to work.
> - Add circuitry to trim the output voltage down when the input
> voltage is low, tailored to prevent high output current with low
> input voltage. For example, the 28v module being discussed in this
> thread would be used at 14v, so it never delivers more than half
> power.
>
> >> maybe the uc3906
> >> http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/uc3906.pdf
> >> I still can't believe it costs that much...
>
> I've used this chip. It's neat -- a complete lead-acid battery charger
> controller. A bit tricky for people with a digital mindset, as it is an
> analog part. It's expensive because sales volumes are low, and there is
> no second source (no competition). The main drawback is that it has no
> safety timers. It won't shut off if the battery stays too long in any
> particular mode.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
38 pounds and 44 ah for the Odyssey & 40 pounds and 55 ah for the Exide.
I'm sure this doesn't tell the whole story. Might the Odyssey be more
robust? There has to be some reason for such a disparity. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 8:24 PM
Subject: RE: Sealed lead battery comparison?
> Tehben Dean,
>
> If you want to compare the Exide Orbital and the Odyssey batteries, check
> out my spreadsheet at
> http://www.evdl.org/docs/odyssey_battery_comparison.xls
>
> Curtis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Tehben Dean
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 8:48 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Sealed lead battery comparison?
>
> I am planning on doing a conversion of a Toyota pickup, probably
> using electroautomotive's 312v AC kit.
> So that would be 26 12v batteries.
> electroautomotive recommends Deka Dominator's.
>
> If we compared Deka Dominator's, Optima yellotop's, Odyssey batteries
> and anything else what would be the pro's and con's of each? or,
> which is best?
>
> Thanks,
> Tehben
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's another supercap source:
http://www.tavrima.com/home.html
The website has info on usage of their parts in busses, an electric
dragster, etc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tehben Dean [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 10:55 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Ultra capacitor's
>
> I have heard talk about "Ultra capacitor's" (basically a gigantic
> capacitor) being used to capture braking energy and rapidly discharge
> it for speedy acceleration.
> Is there such thing as an "Ultra capacitor" available? Has anyone
> ever tried it?
>
> -Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave,
After a little frantic last minute scrambling and help from the list, my EV
grin is officially
installed!
Hey, this is great! Way to go Dave!
BUT, I'll
get the charging straightened out,
With BEVs, this is surely the challenge! Get a good charge with every
cycle, and don't over-discharge, and you're in for a fun experience.
Fail to master the charging or excessive discharging ... and it won't be
quite as enjoyable of an experience.
Good luck, and congrats! Perseverance pays!
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> LOL, from reading the definitions of trailers from several states, almost
> all trailers fail to meet the definition of a "trailer".
Yep, you have to watch the definitions closely. For instance, here there
are several classes of trailer. One class falls under self balancing (no
weight on tongue... dual/triple axle trailers, for example) and balancing
(single axle.) They may be calling the balancing trailers something
different.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Exide Orbital is 50ah not 55ah. The Exide is 41 lbs (deep cycle
model-blue top),
So Exide Orbital DC is 41lbs, 50ah.
On Nov 6, 2006, at 11:15 AM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
38 pounds and 44 ah for the Odyssey & 40 pounds and 55 ah for the
Exide.
I'm sure this doesn't tell the whole story. Might the Odyssey be
more
robust? There has to be some reason for such a disparity. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 8:24 PM
Subject: RE: Sealed lead battery comparison?
Tehben Dean,
If you want to compare the Exide Orbital and the Odyssey
batteries, check
out my spreadsheet at
http://www.evdl.org/docs/odyssey_battery_comparison.xls
Curtis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tehben Dean
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 8:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Sealed lead battery comparison?
I am planning on doing a conversion of a Toyota pickup, probably
using electroautomotive's 312v AC kit.
So that would be 26 12v batteries.
electroautomotive recommends Deka Dominator's.
If we compared Deka Dominator's, Optima yellotop's, Odyssey batteries
and anything else what would be the pro's and con's of each? or,
which is best?
Thanks,
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The forward pressure on the tongue when operating in pusher mode is
> relatively small compared to the forward pressure in braking mode. That
> should pretty well negate concern about the switch and the concern about
> the hitch operating backwards from its design. The amount of force
> generated on the hitch by your pusher is insignificant compared to
> stopping a 5000 pound trailer. Compare your 0-60 time with your 60-0 time.
> F=MA
That is very true. My concern was that all the weight was negative...
lifting the hitch off the ball. (Braking power shoves the hitch *down* on
the ball & only a small amount of that force is taken by the locking
tongue.)
Driving w/ a hitch would be lifting, so perhaps it'd be wise to balance
the trailer with a bit more weight on the tonge than you'd normall use.
For one of our utility trailers, we also used a couple short chains. Thus,
even if the tongue unlatched itself, the chains would keep the hitch from
lifting completely off the ball. (My boss started doing that when a new
hitch tongue broke and a trailer/bulldozer tried to drive over the top of
his PU. <g>)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Subject: Re: Pusher Trailer
Why not look at this from the point of view that a trailer is designed for
carrying passengers or property......anything fixed to the structure cannot be
deemed to be carried, but is instead an integral part of the structure of the
trailer......therefore you have a device for which no legislation prevents
you from using, because no legislation exists for it....
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:41 PM 11/6/2006, Michael wrote:
For one of our utility trailers, we also used a couple short chains. Thus,
even if the tongue unlatched itself, the chains would keep the hitch from
lifting completely off the ball. (My boss started doing that when a new
hitch tongue broke and a trailer/bulldozer tried to drive over the top of
his PU. <g>)
Last I knew, the chains were required by law. Not using them is both
illegal and stupid.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can see how pushing a car on the highway would work, but if you had
an electric pusher pushing an ICE car around town, it seems like it
might be a little awkward say.. doing a right angle turn from a
stoplight? especially if you have a light vehicle. ...maybe if you
accelerate very slowly?
Anyone have experience in this situation?
Just throwing that out there.
-Tehben
On Nov 6, 2006, at 11:41 AM, Michael wrote:
The forward pressure on the tongue when operating in pusher mode is
relatively small compared to the forward pressure in braking mode.
That
should pretty well negate concern about the switch and the concern
about
the hitch operating backwards from its design. The amount of force
generated on the hitch by your pusher is insignificant compared to
stopping a 5000 pound trailer. Compare your 0-60 time with your
60-0 time.
F=MA
That is very true. My concern was that all the weight was negative...
lifting the hitch off the ball. (Braking power shoves the hitch
*down* on
the ball & only a small amount of that force is taken by the locking
tongue.)
Driving w/ a hitch would be lifting, so perhaps it'd be wise to
balance
the trailer with a bit more weight on the tonge than you'd normall
use.
For one of our utility trailers, we also used a couple short
chains. Thus,
even if the tongue unlatched itself, the chains would keep the
hitch from
lifting completely off the ball. (My boss started doing that when a
new
hitch tongue broke and a trailer/bulldozer tried to drive over the
top of
his PU. <g>)
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--- Begin Message ---
Indeed! I have a friend (I won't comment on his intelligence) who was
driving along, and noticed a loose trailer passing him on the highway.
"Wow! I wonder who lost that trailer?" he asked, then he looked in his
rear view mirror, which was suspiciously empty. The trailer lost
control at that point and spun into the ditch.
>Last I knew, the chains were required by law. Not using them is both
illegal and stupid.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Vicor DC-DC Converter
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:08:38 -0800 (PST)
I hate to beat this dead horse to death, but I have a Vicor unit I'd like
to use and I'm just
double checking to see if it will work. My situation is a little different,
so I don't know if the
same rules apply. I have a Vicor unit (VI-262) that is rated for 300 volt
input (200-400) and 15
volts, 75w output. I'd like to use it to power my eMeter, but I want to
make sure it won't cut out
due to undervoltage. My pack may go as low as 150 volts when discharged.
But since the eMeter
doesn't draw much, will the Vicor handle this Ok?
I realize that a 12v-12v dc-dc hooked up to my house battery would be
better, but I don't have one
of those, and they are not cheap compared to the Vicor I already have
(unless it fries my eMeter.)
Thanks
Dave Cover
How much power does the E-meter need? You can get single-chip isolated
DC/DC converters in the 1 to 2 watt range for about $10. You could power
one from your 12V aux battery.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Add a Yahoo! contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free
trip!
http://www.imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/yahoo/default.aspx?locale=en-us&hmtagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:16 PM 11/6/2006, Phil Marino wrote:
How much power does the E-meter need? You can get single-chip
isolated DC/DC converters in the 1 to 2 watt range for about
$10. You could power one from your 12V aux battery.
I've seen universal input 12v supplies for as little as $7. One of
those would probably work, AND be better isolated than the little
DC-DC converters.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA
Brandon Kruger
On 11/6/06, MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The Exide Orbital is 50ah not 55ah. The Exide is 41 lbs (deep cycle
model-blue top),
So Exide Orbital DC is 41lbs, 50ah.
On Nov 6, 2006, at 11:15 AM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> 38 pounds and 44 ah for the Odyssey & 40 pounds and 55 ah for the
> Exide.
> I'm sure this doesn't tell the whole story. Might the Odyssey be
> more
> robust? There has to be some reason for such a disparity. Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 8:24 PM
> Subject: RE: Sealed lead battery comparison?
>
>
>> Tehben Dean,
>>
>> If you want to compare the Exide Orbital and the Odyssey
>> batteries, check
>> out my spreadsheet at
>> http://www.evdl.org/docs/odyssey_battery_comparison.xls
>>
>> Curtis
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Tehben Dean
>> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 8:48 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Sealed lead battery comparison?
>>
>> I am planning on doing a conversion of a Toyota pickup, probably
>> using electroautomotive's 312v AC kit.
>> So that would be 26 12v batteries.
>> electroautomotive recommends Deka Dominator's.
>>
>> If we compared Deka Dominator's, Optima yellotop's, Odyssey batteries
>> and anything else what would be the pro's and con's of each? or,
>> which is best?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tehben
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 10:27:31 -0800 (PST)
Random thought here: What about doing series in 1st and 2nd gear, and
parallel in 3rd and 4th gear? Then do the switching while shifting.
The shift to parallel has a similar effect to a shift to a higher gear. So,
doing both at once might not be the best thing to do. That would be like
shifting up two (or more) gears at the same time.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and moreĀ
then map the best
route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
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Thats a tough one. The spec sheet for my 300V unit (the V300A15T) lists an
under voltage cut out of ~147.4V. The Spec sheet for the VI-2xx units list a
range "200-400V" and "*** Brownout 75% of rated load" but doesn't list an
actual cut off. It might be worth a call to Vicor to talk to an Applications
Engineer.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, November 6, 2006 10:11 am
Subject: Re: Vicor DC-DC Converter
To: [email protected]
> I hate to beat this dead horse to death, but I have a Vicor unit
> I'd like to use and I'm just
> double checking to see if it will work. My situation is a little
> different, so I don't know if the
> same rules apply. I have a Vicor unit (VI-262) that is rated for
> 300 volt input (200-400) and 15
> volts, 75w output. I'd like to use it to power my eMeter, but I
> want to make sure it won't cut out
> due to undervoltage. My pack may go as low as 150 volts when
> discharged. But since the eMeter
> doesn't draw much, will the Vicor handle this Ok?
>
> I realize that a 12v-12v dc-dc hooked up to my house battery would
> be better, but I don't have one
> of those, and they are not cheap compared to the Vicor I already
> have (unless it fries my eMeter.)
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
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--- Begin Message ---
LEM sensors are good for AC controllers, but not really necessary for a
DC motor controller. The current sensor in a DC motor controller just
has two jobs:
1. Detect the instantaneous peak current, and shut down FAST if it gets
too high.
2. Measure the average motor and/or battery current, so it can produce
smooth torque in proportion to the throttle position.
LEM sensors are too slow for #1 -- in the case of a short or stalled
motor, the current would ramp up so fast that the transistors would be
destroyed before the LEM sensor reported the problem.
For #2, LEMs are not all that accurate for DC or low currents. Even a
500amp Curtis can smoothly regulate at 0.5 amps of battery current. That
would be difficult with a LEM.
The usual methods of current sensing on a DC motor controller are with a
resitive shunt, or the voltage drop across the transistors (MOSFET or
IGBT). They tend to be cheap, simple, and fairly accurate.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Not this one. It seems as useful as my speedometer. It's a great way
to find out the error of your speedometer and it's an amazing trip
odometer.
Isn't this because the Defense Dept. has enabled high accuracy due to
the war in Iraq? They need to use civilian GPS units because there
aren't enough of the military ones? This accuracy is likely to go away
when they get enough equipment, as they've found that the enemy is also
using the civilian GPS units.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Heck the power part is what I was concerned about.
Then, you just need some controllers to look at. I have several, but no
digital camera or way to post pictures. Can anyone post photos of some
typical controllers, so folks can see how they are built?
Here's how Curtis does it. View with a fixed-width font. All parts mount
to an aluminum extrusion shaped like this:
_ _
| | | |<--extrusion
| | | |
____| |____| |____
|__________________|
The bottom has an insulating sheet of plastic over it, and slides into
the box-shaped outside case. Six or eight screws with plastic insulating
washers screw the extrusion and case together.
____________________
| _ _ |
| | | | | |<--outside case
| | | | | |
| ____| |____| |____ |
||__________________||
| ================== | <--insulating sheet
--------------------
_| |_ _| |_ <--plastic washers
| | <--screws
= =
The transistors, diodes, and capacitors are mounted to a large PC board
that sits on top of the extrusion. The capacitors are all between the
two vertical parts of the extrusion. The transistors and diodes are
screwed to the left and right sides of the vertical parts of the extrusion.
================== <--PC board
| _|_ |
| | _ | | _ | |
=- | || || || || | -= <--screws
|_|| ||___|| ||_|
____| |_____| |____
|___________________|
^ ^ ^
| | |
diodes capacitors MOSFETs
The exposed surface of the MOSFET transistors is the drain. The exposed
surface of the diodes is the anode. These two are connected directly
together, so they are screwed directly to the extrusion, with no
insulation needed. The diodes and MOSFETs alternate lengthwise; not all
on one side. A piece of buss bar is screwed to the extrusion and comes
out the end as the M- terminal.
The B+ and B- leads are pieces of buss bars screwed to the top of the PC
board, and coming out the ends of the case. The A2 terminal has just two
diodes between it and the extrusion.
___ ___
B- busbar--> |___| |___| <--B+ busbar
=================== <--PC board
_ _
M- --> ||| | | |_|| <--A2 busbar, with diodes
busbar ||| | | |_|| between it and extrusion
____| |_____| |____
|___________________|
Finally, the logic board stands vertically along the left side. It
connects to the power board with a couple of pin headers or connectors.
This setup is simple, but has problems.
- The capacitor-diode-MOSFET loop is rather long.
- There aren't enough diodes to handle max motor current.
- The A2 diodes (used only for plug braking) are especially weak.
- The long busbars, connected at only one end, means that the
closer diodes, capacitors, and resistors hog more of the current.
- They depend on foil on the PC board to carry high current.
- Heatsinking is poor. Heat has to flow edgewise down the vertical
part of the extrusion, then through the plastic sheet, to get to
the case. Then it has to flow edgewise around the sides of the
case to get to the (negligible) fins, or through yet another
interface to get to the actual heatsink bolted to the bottom.
I was just going to use a PWM uController for the control section,
do all the tuning and limits in software.
Did you notice the thread on problems getting the Zilla's micro set up
and figuring out its error codes? This is the sort of thing people run
into with micros. What seems obvious and easy to the programmer can be
obscure and frustrating to a user.
Is a LEM sensor good enough for battery, motor (freewheel) current
sensing? It has the advantage of being isolated, but I'm concerened
about it's response.
I'd say no. A LEM sensor is expensive, and doesn't do anything we need
here. The current sensor has to respond *instantly*, which means it
shuts off the transistors *right now*. You can't wait for a micro to
respond.
Otmar says mosfets don't have to be matched, but diodes do. Is diode
matching simply a matter of making sure their forward drop is within
a certain range of each other?
MOSFETs behave like resistors. If they aren't matched, the current
divides between them according to their on-resistances. A 10% difference
means the current will split 45-55 instead of 50-50. The one that gets
10% more current will run hotter. But a MOSFET's resistance rises as it
gets hotter; this tends to narrow the imbalance to maybe 5%. Thus, you
can get away without matching if you size all the parts big enough.
Diodes and IGBTs are quite different. Their on-state voltage drop is
relatively constant with current, but varies between devices. The one
that happens to have the lowest voltage drop hogs most of the current; a
10% voltage imbalance can cause a 50% current imbalance. Worse, the
voltage drop goes down as the part gets hotter; this makes the imbalance
even worse. So, you have to carefully match diodes or IGBTs in parallel
to get anywhere near their rated current limits.
But in any case, you still have to worry about balancing issues. If one
part has a worse solder conneciton, or a poorer connection to the
heatsink, it will still die long before the others. With many devices in
parallel, this can easily start a chain reaction that causes them all to
fail.
Other than water sensitivity, what causes the Curtis failure modes?
Poor cooling. Too high a voltage. Trying to "lug" the motor at low speed
and high current. Too big a motor for the controller size. No precharge
resistor. Trying to use its plug braking feature with a heavy EV.
An advantage of this design is that all of the parts are simple,
inexpensive, and generic.
Yeah, and a PWM PIC is about $6. Considering the cost of the rest of it
... not a big deal.
The important point is that the micro is not an essential part; it is an
"extra". You don't need a $6 PIC to get PWM. A $1 PWM chip can do it;
and it won't need programming, or regulated power supplies, or crash
from noise, or respond too slowly to save expensive transistors.
I'm keeping my eye on the 1200V, 600A IGBT modules on Ebay -- $85.
Trying to find a reason not to use it!
How about... You can't get more than about 300 amps out of an advertised
"600 amp" part. It will have a voltage drop of 2-3 volts, which would
produce twice as much heat as a MOSFET based controller. You aren't
going to be using a pack voltage anywhere near high enough to need a
1200v part. Most IGBTs switch so slowly that you won't be able to run
them at inaudible frequencies.
device I'm looking at (http://tinyurl.com/u7v93)
This is a Powerex CM600HA-24H IGBT. It has a 2.5-3.4v on-state voltage,
and a junction-to-heatsink resistance of about 0.07 deg.C/watt. Assume
your heatsink is at 50 deg.C (121 deg.F), and has a thermal resistance
of 0.1 deg.C/watt (which is very good), your total thermal resistance is
0.17 deg.C/watt.
You don't want the IGBT junction to be over 100 deg.C for reasonable
life. So, the most you can have is 100-50= 50 deg.C from junction to
ambient. How many watts can you dissipate?
Power = 50 deg.C / (0.17 deg.C/w) = 294 watts
How much current is this with the nominal 2.5v drop?
Current = 294 watts / 2.5v = 118 amps
So, the most this part can dissipate on a continuous duty basis is only
118 amps. It would be even less when you add switching losses, or you
you were unlucky and got a part that had the maximum 3.4v on-state drop.
See what I mean about the huge gap between advertised marketing numbers
and real-world performance?
Mr. Borges schematic is (literally) unreadable, scanned at too low
a resolution.
you can also get the original book.
Any idea what book it is? I just ordered "Motor Control Electronics
Handbook" by Valentine, at Otmar's suggestion
That's the one!
Problem is, most people *can't* contribute.
If they truly can't contribute anything, neither skill nor time nor
money, then they are not likely to get anything in return.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
