EV Digest 6113
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Power Trailer, was EV pusher Trailer
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Solectria Force on ebay
by "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "Jacques Goyet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Power Trailer, was EV pusher Trailer
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: one more done
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) New England EAA Meeting, location change
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Solectria Force on ebay
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Solectria Force on ebay
by "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) A Very Interesting Quote - from Automotive News - and GM's Lutz
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: A Very Interesting Quote - from Automotive News - and GM's Lutz
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Tesla mentioned in the IEEE Institute Online Newsletter
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Phoenix Motorcars Takes SEMA Show by Storm
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: A Very Interesting Quote - from Automotive News - and GM's Lutz
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: A Very Interesting Quote - from Automotive News - and GM's Lu
tz
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) AirFoil X-36 electric carbon fiber bike
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Was motor roughness - Now Raptor Issue?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: Was motor roughness - Now Raptor Issue?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Was motor roughness - Now Raptor Issue?
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> But one must be realistic about the goals. It is doing little if any
> better than the original engine for efficiency when your motive power
> comes from the Capstone, you'd get far better results buying a hybrid!
>
While most of the discussions about range extending trailers tend to evoke as
much emotion as the
AC vs. DC issue, I tend to disagree with the popular opinion. Here's my angle.
(Danny, I'm not
picking on you.)
The way I see it, the majority of people could commute year round with an EV
that get's 40-50
miles from their pack. Even less for a lot of people. Not everybody, but a
large majority of
people. But there's always that weekend when you want to go visit Grandma in
the next state, or
take a vacation to a place that 8 hours away, as I do every year. Should I
drive a hybrid 51 weeks
a year so I can take that 8 hour drive once a year? Doesn't make sense.
So if I have a range extending trailer that only get's as good a mileage as a
regular car, that's
perfect! On an annual basis I'm waaaaaaay ahead of any hybrid. It is a waste to
have it sit all
year round, but I could go in on it with a few others to make it more
practical. And if I have it,
I'll probably go to more EVents to show off the car that would have been out of
range. And built
right, my range will be unlimited. Drive to Woburn, no problem. I could still
be cleaner than half
the vehicles out there.
I'm still finishing up my car, but you know I'm keeping my eyes open for a
small, efficient, clean
engine to go in my trailer. Maybe diesel, maybe a small motorcyle engine. Not
sure, but I'm
optomistic.
Dave Cover, keeping the EV faith.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike
Wish I had the $ I'd "buy it now" Much less expensive than trying to make my
two electrics run (1980 Jet ElectraVan or 1983 Bradley GT Electric). But would
I get as much satisfaction driving it or gain valuable knowledge purchasing it
from you that I would obtain restoring what I have? I wonder.........
Don Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: mike young<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:53 AM
Subject: Solectria Force on ebay
I have listed a 97 solectria force on ebay item # 330047260763 located near
Rochester ny.this one runs strong and i took it 28 miles the other day with no
problem.it came from transoptions in nj.
mike young
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK good points... both your's and Pete's about my truck not being a car.
2003 Dodge Ram Quad Cab Short box. 360 Hemi Automatic 4WD. No, it is not my
commuter vehicle "if it ain't workin', it ain't moving" (generally).
"I" average 14.3 mpg combined with the tonneau cover on (that is a
"surprisingly consistant" figure btw). My wife averages 12.5.... hmmm....
Anyway, cover off, "my" mileage drops to less than 13. This is off subject
but thought I would inject just one more datapoint into the tailgate up/down
wars.
While towing a load of batteries, about 3600lbs worth, in a 8x12 Y'all haul
at 70 mph my mileage dropped to 12.8, IIRC.
While towing a load of empty shipping containers ~500lbs laid flat on a
flatbed landscape trailer @ 70mph I averaged 15.1 mpg. Load did not go above
the tailgate.
While towing the same trailer with ~3000lbs of lumber at ~55mph I averaged
14.3mpg.
My 1994 Silverado went from 18 average to 20.5 while towing a Ford Aerostar
at highway speeds. Same thing happened while towing a popup camper.
The point of all this which I purposely didn't come right out and say (I was
hoping someone else would pick up on it) was, that a pusher trailer could be
designed so that it, when coupled to the lead vehicle could result in a
lower cd. Some have said that a pusher trailer will increase the drag on the
lead vehicle. I say, "not necessarily".
Yes Pete, a truck is not a car. My point was that a trailer that sticks out
side the envelope of the lead vehicle will be bad but one that is within it
is not so bad and may actually be beneficial. Car or truck, doesn't matter.
I'm pretty sure you agree with me on this, I might just not be saying it
right.
OK, Why don't I tow a trailer all the time then? Simple, it's a pain in the
ass to park these trucks even without the trailers, I'm not going to tow one
all the time for 1 or 2 mpg. Now, double my mileage and I'll think about
it.....
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
GE I-5
Blossvale, NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:39 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: EV pusher Trailer
>
> MPG loss does not say anything without specifying where you started.
> The inverse, gallons per 100 miles does give a very good and exact
> indication, but cannot be calculated unless you stated where you started.
>
> This is the old question: What is better?
> 1. Improve a 10 MPG SUV to get 11 MPG? (add 1 mpg)
> 2. or to improve a 50 MPG Prius to 60 MPG? (add 10 mpg)
>
> The unexpected answer is that 1 is far better in total energy consumptoin
> and you can easily see this when inverting the numbers to gallons per 100
> miles (gphm):
>
> 1. from 10 gphm to 9.1 gphm (0.9 saved)
> 2. from 2 gphm to 1.7 gphm (0.3 saved)
>
> So, when you say that adding a trailer only causes 1 MPG drop that could
> mean that it costs 1 gallon extra per 100 miles for a 10 MPH vehicle (now
> getting 9 MPG) but the same extra
> 1 gallon per 100 miles for an efficient EV is comparable to the hit that a
> Prius gets, when normally using 2 gallon per 100 miles then adding one for
3
> gallon per 100 miles means the familiar number of 50 MPG becomes 33 MPG,
> which means that the range is reduced by 33%!
>
> As I said, an efficient EV will be hit equally hard by a
"slight" reduction
> in aerodynamics.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
http://www.evsource.com - Professional EV components and resources
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You don't keep chocolates in your car!?!?! I'm not riding with you, period!
Jacques Goyet
Unicorn Services Group
Hamtramck, Michigan 48212-3739
313/875-5405 (24/7, USA) Voice
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: Cor van de Water
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:00 AM
Subject: RE: EV pusher Trailer
Michael,
the conversion of a brand new Yaris has been all over this list,
since the Palo Alto EV show and rally.
Most people doing a conversion are like me though.
If I can get a very decent and recent car with little rust and
still a lot of life for under $2000, why should I pay almost 10 times
more only to get brand new, which wears off quickly and a working
engine and emissions control that I am not going to use, plus
a headache in modern computers which seems to be designed to
lock anybody out of the ICE business but the insiders?
Give me a 10 year old sedan with blown engine, straight body and
clean interior, preferably low miles, so I do not need to worry
about upcoming brake/bearing/tranny and other common issues,
while giving me a neat family car and I have the donor that I
dream of to convert.
I did already buy a 91 BMW 325i with blown head gasket, but found
myself in the trap of needing a commute vehicle so I could not
start the conversion, I needed a car. Replacing the gasket fixed
the issue of the commuter, but I could not start converting it as
I was driving it daily. When I found an electric truck, I did not need
the BMW any more and someone else did need a car, so it has moved on.
I actually prefer not to buy new, as too much waste is already
produced and I will do what I can to avoid adding to it.
I hate to see people buy things only to discard half of it
immediately because it is only used to help sell it, not to
contribute to the actual product, such as a 12" gold-colored
plastic dish to hold a handful of chocolats. But I digress.
The phrase from Electro Automotive comes to mind, I think
it goes along the lines of why discard a perfectly good car
just because it's engine is a total loss?
To approach it from a different angle - many people love to
restore old cars. What is wrong with a beautifully restored
Karmann Ghia?
There is a possible donor on SF Craigslist at the moment for $1900
which looks in perfect shape from the pictures. I bet it will
sell quickly for a car with such a design.
You can do a new car conversion if you like, nobody tells you
you can't. That the majority here does not do that means that
there is a good reason for not using new cars for conversions.
But the factory EVs were mostly conversions at heart, with
a few exceptions.
All I can suggest is:
get the car you like,
then make it into an EV you like.
Otherwise you won't be driving it.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 8:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV pusher Trailer
>From what I've seen, an EV pusher makes more sense than an ICE pusher...
but
that's just me, I guess, and everyone's need would be different.
For the comment "there are modern cars converted"... mostly I've been seeing
cars that are 1/2 worn out that are converted. I've never seen a brand new
car that underwent an EV conversion. Perhaps your mileage differs.
For the next comment, drop it by the side of the road? Nope, I can't see any
reason to take an EV out of the driveway/garage, if it can't make the trip
on EV power. (The exception being when you are taking it to a distant show.)
For normal commuting, why use an EV if it can't get the range needed for the
daily drive... and have to rely on an ICE to take up the balance? Why drag
along ICE, just to make a daily journey? Leave it at home, and go with ICE
the whole trip. I'm sure you can explain the reason. To me, a drop of 20% in
ICE range (per gallon) as well as the electric cost... well, it doesn't make
much sense.
There are vehicles out there that compete quite well with EV for "world
saving." If one isn't concerned about heat in the cab (or having an
alternate system) something like the Bajaj might do well. Or go with the
diesel engine, running on bio? Those get around 80MPG on gas, slightly
better on diesel... and have much the same hardships many EVs have. <g>
Of course, it may not even be possible to use an EV pusher with today's ICE
cars, when you look at all the systems involved. Nothing works unless the
computer is running.
...just my thoughts... awaiting rebuttals.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Nov 2006 at 5:04, Dave Cover wrote:
> But there's always that weekend
> when you want to go visit Grandma in the next state, or take a vacation to a
> place that 8 hours away, as I do every year. Should I drive a hybrid 51 weeks
> a
> year so I can take that 8 hour drive once a year? Doesn't make sense.
I'm not sure it makes any more sense to keep an APU around 51 weeks of the
year, in order to use it once. Why not rent an ICE car for that one time a
year that you need it?
I'm a sort of wistful fan of the Station Car concept. What I like about it
is not so much the idea of basing it at a train station, but the fact that
the users can take home whatever vehicles they need. Most of the time you
take home a little commuter EV. For that weekend when you want to go to
Grandma's house, take home an all-gas hybrid sedan. If you need to get some
lumber, take home a pickup. If you're going on a family vacation, take home
a minivan. Return your mini-monster the following day or week, and get back
an EV.
Here's an old article about the concept :
http://www.evworld.com/archives/conferences/naevi99/mbernard.html
Marty Barnard has been a proponent of this idea for a long time - I think I
first read his writings on station cars at least 10 years ago.
The station car concept had a website, stncar.com, for a long time (the
domain was registered in 1995). It used to be a good resource for reading
about the idea, but a year or so ago they (Marty?) took down the website and
put up a placeholder page, which is still there.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Nov 2006 at 4:51, Storm Connors wrote:
> 1. Do you strap the batteries into pairs (buddies) and put the buddies in
> series, or hook together 2 series strings?
The photos of their conversions show that these are 6 volt golf car
batteries, so they are all in one string.
Their website : http://electricblue14.tripod.com
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
A change of scenery here;
November 11, 2006 meeting of New England Electric Auto Association to
be held at address below at home of David Maloney.
See emails below for address and directions.
my address is
222 Forest Ave, Warren, MA 01083
413-436-9828
Your 100' cord will reach from the garage to the dryer outlet easily.
Directions are "pretty easy"
Masspike or Rte 84N to Sturbridge exit, follow route 20 West through
town
turn right onto Rte 149N
turn left at fork in road onto Warren Road
pass Cheney Apple Orchards
follow til road ends, turn right and stay right on Southbridge Road-
intersection with big Cow farm will be on your right
pass Breezeland apple orchard, go up and down some hills
2nd left is Forest Ave, #222 grey house with black shutters, about 5th
house
on right
If Bob can bring the "Who Killed" movie, I can show it, but I
apologize I
don't have a lot of living room space.
I hava bootleg copy I'll bring along. I don't know if iyt will play on
ALL DVD players. Have ordered 2 legit copies, one for my local library, the
other for thre rest of us.Have decent copies, back to back" Trolley, the car
thast built our cities" and "Taken for a Ride"Or how General Murders helped
kill off trolley systems in our major cities.Bring it along, too, for yur
viewing pleasure, or discomfort, if the case may be<g>!
Since I've gottn back from Florida, haven't gotten much done with the
Bug;
been dealing with leaves replacement windows and other fun stuff.
All your wood stacked yet?
Yeah! Same issue here, hauled off 5 van loads of leaves 'WAY out in the
woods where they can't blow back! Gotta hook up something to vacuum them up
towed with an Electrac, into a trailer to haul away and dump! Alota other
stuff that needs to be done around the house before winter, too.
Oh yeah!? Bill Glickman, should I bring the Bad Boy so ya can charge at
30 amps at Daves?No PFC, back YET (Hint hint Rich Rudman?)Dave Cover? Ya up
for this run, too? Gees! TWO EV's in one place? I hear the Left coasters
chuckling here?We have to work on the EV deficiency here.
Seeya there?
Bob
PS I'm Guessing, correct Me if I'm wrong? Time TWO PM??or so?
________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it would accelerate your love for ev's to be driving one and push
you to make your other ones run . Also there is that famous ev grin you
would be sportin immediately.That is my sales pitch to try to get more ev
drivers/owners in upstate Ny mike y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Solectria Force on ebay
Mike
Wish I had the $ I'd "buy it now" Much less expensive than trying to
make my two electrics run (1980 Jet ElectraVan or 1983 Bradley GT
Electric). But would I get as much satisfaction driving it or gain
valuable knowledge purchasing it from you that I would obtain restoring
what I have? I wonder.........
Don Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: mike young<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:53 AM
Subject: Solectria Force on ebay
I have listed a 97 solectria force on ebay item # 330047260763 located
near Rochester ny.this one runs strong and i took it 28 miles the other
day with no problem.it came from transoptions in nj.
mike young
--- End Message ---
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 08:44:36 -0800
From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <[email protected]>
Subject: A Very Interesting Quote - from Automotive News - and GM's Lutz
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Again... This guy from GM, Lutz, ( or should we pronounce it CLutz...)
just blows me away...
You can read the whole Automotive News article here:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061107/FREE/61106014/1024/STATIC
But it is his last line ....
.... "what started as a fuel cell project is now an electric vehicle
project."
W H A T ? ? ?
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: RE: A Very Interesting Quote - from Automotive News - and GM's Lutz
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:28:01 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
GM will never wake up to an electric vehicle until they understand that
heavy gas guzzling SUVs are not the direction they need to be heading
in.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steven Lough
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
Subject: A Very Interesting Quote - from Automotive News - and GM's Lutz
Again... This guy from GM, Lutz, ( or should we pronounce it CLutz...)
just blows me away...
You can read the whole Automotive News article here:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061107/FREE/6110601
4/1024/STATIC
But it is his last line ....
.... "what started as a fuel cell project is now an electric vehicle
project."
W H A T ? ? ?
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 09:15:10 -0900
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Tesla mentioned in the IEEE Institute Online Newsletter
To: [email protected]
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-language: en
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Good radio report except for the fuel cell part...academia just can't let go of
fuel cells. They still bestow all the benefits of the electric vehicle on a
"fuel cell" powered one. Still all in all a good report. Here'e the direct
link: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/radio?date=03.11.06&segStart=1
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
<snip from IEEE Institute Online Newsletter>
10. Driving the Cars of the Future Today Ready to switch from gasoline-fueled
cars to cleaner electric cars? Listen to an exclusive report by IEEE Spectrum's
car expert, John Voelker, just back from a test drive of the Chevrolet Sequel,
a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle. Tune in to Spectrum Radio at
http://bmsmail3.ieee.org:80/u/4327/41420167
<snip>
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 09:17:56 -0900
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Phoenix Motorcars Takes SEMA Show by Storm
To: [email protected]
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Phoenix Motorcars Takes SEMA Show by Storm
10:00 a.m. 11/07/2006 Provided by
ONTARIO, Calif., Nov 07, 2006 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Phoenix Motorcars, exhibiting
their new zero emission, all-electric, freeway-ready sports utility truck,
received substantial media attention at the SEMA show last week. SEMA is the
Specialty Equipment Market Association ( www.sema.org ) show attended by over
200,000 automobile industry buyers.
Phoenix Motorcars introduced a zero emission, all-electric sport utility truck,
which is powered by a revolutionary Altairnano NanoSafe(TM) battery pack
(ALTI), and the truck targets the fleet vehicle owner market. The Phoenix
Motorcars sport utility truck exceeds all specifications for a Type III ZEV,
having a driving range of 130 miles, it can be recharged in less than 10
minutes and the battery pack has a life of 12 years or more. Surprisingly, the
cost to recharge the battery pack is less than $3.00!!
The Phoenix Motorcars zero emission, all-electric sport utility truck can
cruise on the freeway at up to 95 mph while carrying 5 passengers and a full
payload. The Phoenix Motorcars Sport Utility Truck has a low cost maintenance
schedule and will be introduced in early 2007. The Phoenix Motorcars SUV will
be introduced in late 2007 with two configurations, having a range of either
130 or 250 miles and both configurations can be recharged in less than 10
minutes.
Phoenix Motorcars is receiving a solid market response with over 600
expressions of interest from fleet vehicle owners and great press coverage with
over 50 media briefings conducted in the past week, including two press
conferences held by the actor and environmental activist Ed Begley Jr. An
excellent media story was a lead article on the Popular Mechanics website at:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4201003.html
"The Phoenix Motorcars Sport Utility Trucks and Vehicles astound people because
these vehicles are full sized vehicles which carry five people at freeway
speeds, unlike the public perception of an electric vehicle which is a golf
cart sized, low speed, two passenger vehicle. There is tremendous pent up
demand for a real zero emission, all-electric vehicle and we are well
positioned to satisfy this market demand," comments Phoenix Motorcars CEO Dan
Elliott.
Phoenix Motorcars will introduce our Sport Utility Truck for the Fleet Vehicle
Market in early 2007 and plan to produce at least 500 zero emission, all
electric trucks in 2007. The SUV will be introduced in late 2007. Vehicle
orders are being taken for the Phoenix SUT now for delivery in early 2007 and
for the SUV for delivery in late 2007, at affordable pricing.
ABOUT PHOENIX MOTORCARS, INC.
Phoenix Motorcars Inc., headquartered in Ontario, California, has been an
industry leader in the development of battery electric freeway speed vehicles
since 2001. The mission of Phoenix Motorcars is to manufacture zero emission
vehicles including Sport Utility Trucks and Sport Utility Vehicles to reduce
the toxic emissions from the largest contributor to air pollution, personal
automobiles. For additional information visit: www.phoenixmotorcars.com .
Phoenix Motorcars Inc.
Jana White, +1-909-987-0815
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Copyright Business Wire 2006
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:28:37 -0000
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Steven Lough <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: A Very Interesting Quote - from Automotive News - and GM's Lutz
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
At least it's progress in the way these fools think.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Again... This guy from GM, Lutz, ( or should we pronounce it CLutz...)
> just blows me away...
>
> You can read the whole Automotive News article here:
>
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061107/FREE/61106014/1024/STATIC
>
> But it is his last line ....
>
> .... "what started as a fuel cell project is now an electric vehicle
> project."
>
> W H A T ? ? ?
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 12:24:15 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Powerex CM600HA-24H IGBT, 2.5-3.4v on-voltage, Tjc 0.07 deg.C/watt...
>> Assume heatsink at 50 deg.C (121 deg.F), Tca 0.1 deg.C/watt...
>> total thermal resistance is 0.17 deg.C/watt.
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
> But this resistance shouldn't be included here, because we aren't
> saying the ambient temperature is 50*C.
I'm assuming your ambient air temperature really is 121 deg.F, as it
would be in the Arizona summer sun. I'm aiming for the worst-case
situation, not the typical or best-case.
>> How many watts can you dissipate?
>> Power = 50 deg.C / (0.17 deg.C/w) = 294 watts
>>
>> How much current is this with the nominal 2.5v drop?
>> Current = 294 watts / 2.5v = 118 amps
> The 2.5V drop is for 600A, not for 286A. It's also for 25*C junction,
> which is obviously not true.
Yes; I was just doing a quick calculation. The data sheet doesn't give
curves for worst-case on-state voltage drop; only typicals. So we have
to guess.
2.5v is typical at 25 deg.C and 600a. Worst-case is 3.4v (0.9v higher).
It goes down to 2v (0.5v lower) at 100 deg.C and 300a. So a reasonable
(and easy) guess is that the worst case is still 2.5v at 100 deg.C and
118 amps.
> Let's look at 350A. The graphs show less than 2V of drop for this
> current at 100*C junction:
>
> Current = 714 watts / 2.0v = 357 amps
>
> So more than three times 118A would be okay for a typical module.
No; it's only OK if you're lucky (didn't get a worst-case part) and when
you're driving on a nice cool day. If you design like this, you have a
controller that usually works, but will fail on a hill on a hot day.
> Sometimes you have to look a little more deeply into the datasheets!
Very true! The more time you spend with the data sheet, and with
measuring the real parts, the better your understanding of what their
real limitations are.
The key point is that you can't blindly accept the advertised ratings.
They are wildly optimistic! Even the "mizzible Cursit" controller that
everyone complains about uses 35 BUZ30A 200v 21a MOSFETs for a 72-120v
400a controller. These parts would imply a 35 x 21a = 735a rating; but
they only get about half of this, and only with the controller stone cold.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 12:41:15 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
>> These are the heatsinks we use at work:
>> http://www.d6industries.com/HeatSinks.htm
>> Even the worst on that page is 0.15*C/W, and it can fit in a 5" cube!
Ah, but that is using a huge 4.7" square fan and a very high airflow
rate of 600 feet per minute. Also, I suspect this heatsink costs more
than the IGBT module.
And, I was assuming a 0.1 deg.C/watt heatsink, which is better than this
anyway.
>> The water-cooled heatsink I'm using for my project is around 0.006*C/W
Except that with a water cooled heatsink, you have additional thermal
resistances in series before it gets to the air. You have to include the
resistance of the heat radiator, with its fan, the contribution of the
water pump and its plumbing, etc.
I appreciate your comments, Arthur. But be aware that you are using
best-case and typical marketing figures, and I am using worst-case figures.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: A Very Interesting Quote - from Automotive News - and GM's Lu
tz
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 11:01:35 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Let's just say that they have come full circle,
that is - their statements have never indicated anything else,
but the deeds have been the opposite of their statements
for several years now, so with the focus on a HFC vechicle,
which is *in the first place* an EV and secondly an on-board
recharge facility (I am happy that they recognise that now)
they have no other choices that either make an efficient car
or abandon the project, as even the Lithium battery technology
still imposes restrictions on the amount of energy you can
carry with you in the vehicle.
Seen the unlikeliness of the latter, I think that they may be
ready to bring us a new.... EV1.
The main statement I picked up from the article:
"GM executives believe electric vehicles are the future."
It makes me hopeful that they recognise that we have been blazing
the trail already so many years and recent successes from tiny
companies like Tesla successfully releasing a serious EV has
hurt them enough to officially adjust their statements.
Now I am eager to see if the deeds follow the words, as I have
learned that actions speak truth where words can be so hollow.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:29 AM
To: Steven Lough
Subject: Re: A Very Interesting Quote - from Automotive News - and GM's
Lutz
At least it's progress in the way these fools think.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Again... This guy from GM, Lutz, ( or should we pronounce it CLutz...)
> just blows me away...
>
> You can read the whole Automotive News article here:
>
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061107/FREE/61106014/10
24/STATIC
>
> But it is his last line ....
>
> .... "what started as a fuel cell project is now an electric vehicle
> project."
>
> W H A T ? ? ?
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
To: EV Discussion List <[email protected]>
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: AirFoil X-36 electric carbon fiber bike
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:27:07 -0500
Hi all,
Just finished building a new electric bike.
http://www.skootercommuter.com/
It's carbon fiber including the custom made battery pod which holds
20 A123 Li-Po batteries. The battery pod is self contained and easily
removed from the bike. It's teardrop shaped for less wind resistance.
The left front brake handle is now the throttle for the bike and the
right brake handle still operates the rear brake. The motor is a 500
watt Heinzmann hub motor mounted in the rear rim. Total weight
including the hubmotor and batteries is just under 30 pounds.
Jay at GoWheel.com is making a battery pack for it with 2 strands of
A123s. At the moment the bike is using a single strand of A123's from
a DeWalt Power tool pack that I took apart to get the bike running
for the GreenFestival. I just had enough time to test ride the bike
in the basement but it was pretty quick and I almost hit a wall.
We had it on display at the GreenFestival with the bike lifted off
the table so the rear hubmotor could run. It received quite a bit of
attention at the show.
Chip Gribben
SkooterCommuter
http://www.skootercommuter.com
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 13:38:47 -0500
From: Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
View http://www.pwrx.com/pwrx/curves/439.pdf
Find your device and current rating, and multiply by frequency to get
average mW dissipated. Turn-on and turn-off are close enough for our
purposes; pick one and double the number to get total losses.
I estimate 70W at 1kHz and 1400W at 20kHz. This is extremely
conservative, just to see if using it is in the realm of possibility.
As both Arthur and I have stated before, these modules aren't really
designed for low losses and/or high switching frequencies.
Cory Cross
Danny Miller wrote:
> Wow, truly those are some exceptional heatsinks. What kind of
> device-to-sink thermal impedance can you achieve?
>
> I did agree with your note that the device on-state voltage drop would
> be a better case than Lee estimated, btw.
> Now also you're not taking into account switching losses though. Do
> you have any estimate on those?
>
> Danny
>
> Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
>
>> Lee said the heatsink temperature was 50*C. Given that parameter, I
>> calculated the current correctly. Even if he had said that the ambient
>> temperature were 50*C, his current calculation is still too low because
>> it doesn't account for the lower voltage drop due to the lower-than-600A
>> current and the higher-than-25*C junction temperature.
>>
>> Clearly, a brief websearch is not going to teach you much (at least if
>> you interpret the results incorrectly). The heatsink in question is
>> obviously larger than that of a CPU.
>>
>> These are the heatsinks we use at work:
>> http://www.d6industries.com/HeatSinks.htm
>>
>> Even the worst on that page is 0.15*C/W, and it can fit in a 5" cube!
>> This would barely hold the module anyway. The water-cooled heatsink I'm
>> using for my project is around 0.006*C/W, and could fit about four
>> modules. This would still be one-quarter of the thermal resistance Lee
>> quoted (but the value doesn't matter anyway, as I said above).
>>
>> - Arthur
>>
>>
>>
>
Subject: Re: Was motor roughness - Now Raptor Issue?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 14:48:15 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dana and Roger,
The sad news remains after some trials last night and today.
symptoms better described.
1) If I start in 1st gear and give it some acceleration, I get past the
roughness real quick.
If I try to creep real slow, the truck Oscillates Lurch forward/slow down/
lurch forward/slow down. until I accelerate better. Then it goes fine.
2) Last night I coasted to a stop with no brakes (boy that took a good 3
minutes from 45 mph); so resistance is not a problem. The truck easily
gains speed on a down slope and will crawl at a stop with slight incline
and no brakes applied (even after I just applied them to stop).
3) yes motor spins by hand in neutral fine; first thing I checked
4) mechanic freed up my calipers during brake job.
Perhaps a controller issue?
Yes, I have the Raptor 600. Approximately last November the last owner
blew it and Peter (from Raptor) out in California repaired it and upgraded
it. Maybe I haven't given it the love and attention it wants :)
I don't have the rev limit or tach installed and haven't changed any
settings since purchase last May.
Thoughts?
I could install my GE-EVT15 controller (at 120 Volts to see if that works
differently than the Raptor).
that would be a nice day long project.
I might even try to lower voltage to 144 just for the sake of trying it
with the Raptor.
Thanks for more help,
where's that MadMan controller
Ben
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:04:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Was motor roughness - Now Raptor Issue?
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Throttle pot?
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Dana and Roger,
>
> The sad news remains after some trials last night and today.
>
> symptoms better described.
> 1) If I start in 1st gear and give it some acceleration, I get past the
> roughness real quick.
> If I try to creep real slow, the truck Oscillates Lurch forward/slow down/
> lurch forward/slow down. until I accelerate better. Then it goes fine.
>
> 2) Last night I coasted to a stop with no brakes (boy that took a good 3
> minutes from 45 mph); so resistance is not a problem. The truck easily
> gains speed on a down slope and will crawl at a stop with slight incline
> and no brakes applied (even after I just applied them to stop).
>
> 3) yes motor spins by hand in neutral fine; first thing I checked
>
> 4) mechanic freed up my calipers during brake job.
>
> Perhaps a controller issue?
> Yes, I have the Raptor 600. Approximately last November the last owner
> blew it and Peter (from Raptor) out in California repaired it and upgraded
> it. Maybe I haven't given it the love and attention it wants :)
>
> I don't have the rev limit or tach installed and haven't changed any
> settings since purchase last May.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> I could install my GE-EVT15 controller (at 120 Volts to see if that works
> differently than the Raptor).
> that would be a nice day long project.
> I might even try to lower voltage to 144 just for the sake of trying it
> with the Raptor.
>
> Thanks for more help,
> where's that MadMan controller
> Ben
>
>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:05:41 -0700
To: [email protected]
From: Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Was motor roughness - Now Raptor Issue?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
First let me start with a disclaimer.....
I've never owned a Raptor, so have not been really focused on Raptor
particulars...
Also my memory ain't what it used to be....
Now,
I think I recall, years ago, someone reporting very similar symptoms from a
Raptor. I also seem to believe the cause was corrosion inside it.
Remember, this is coming from someone who should be regarded as to "having
listened in on a conversation, a long time ago". I may be way off here!!
Good luck!!
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
GE I-5
Blossvale, NY
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:48 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Was motor roughness - Now Raptor Issue?
>
> Dana and Roger,
>
> The sad news remains after some trials last night and today.
>
> symptoms better described.
> 1) If I start in 1st gear and give it some acceleration, I get past the
> roughness real quick.
> If I try to creep real slow, the truck Oscillates Lurch forward/slow down/
> lurch forward/slow down. until I accelerate better. Then it goes fine.
>
> 2) Last night I coasted to a stop with no brakes (boy that took a good 3
> minutes from 45 mph); so resistance is not a problem. The truck easily
> gains speed on a down slope and will crawl at a stop with slight incline
and
> no brakes applied (even after I just applied them to stop).
>
> 3) yes motor spins by hand in neutral fine; first thing I checked
>
> 4) mechanic freed up my calipers during brake job.
>
> Perhaps a controller issue?
> Yes, I have the Raptor 600. Approximately last November the last owner
blew
> it and Peter (from Raptor) out in California repaired it and upgraded it.
> Maybe I haven't given it the love and attention it wants :)
>
> I don't have the rev limit or tach installed and haven't changed any
> settings since purchase last May.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> I could install my GE-EVT15 controller (at 120 Volts to see if that works
> differently than the Raptor).
> that would be a nice day long project.
> I might even try to lower voltage to 144 just for the sake of trying it
with
> the Raptor.
>
> Thanks for more help,
> where's that MadMan controller
> Ben
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
http://www.evsource.com - Professional EV components and resources
--- End Message ---
