EV Digest 6112
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Ultra Capacitors, Aluminum Batteries
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Solar EV power
by "Christie Cooksey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Power Trailer, was EV pusher Trailer
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Forklift motors with only 2 polarity bolts
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: VW Vanagon as Glider?
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: [BULK] Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV pusher Trailer
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Vacuum switch relayed, was: LED brakelights (Vacuum switch)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Heaters
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) unsubscribe
by Pat Mackey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 1966 Karmann Ghia on Craigslist $1900 looks in good state
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) A trip to Voltage Vehicles. Xebra Test drive.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Power Trailer, was EV pusher Trailer
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Solectria Force on ebay
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: one more done
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: 1966 Karmann Ghia on Craigslist $1900 looks in good state
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Danny,
I think the EEstor patent was mentioned often enough,
they have very many parallel capacitors (over 2000) so
the current to each one is very low - charging them to
3500V in 6 minutes involves over 1/2 MW, which translates
in around 150A at that voltage, which means that each
capacitor sees less than 100 mA.
Nobody said that you would be able to charge in minutes
>at your house<.
Very few people have 1/2MW service.
But likewise, very few people can supply thousands of
gallons of fuel from home.
Maybe a 40 gal drum of Biodiesel every other day...
The idea was that there would be electric service stations
that have the middle-voltage hookup to supply a few MegaWatt
for parallel fill-up of a few EVs, just like todays gas
station has 4 or 8 or sometimes 20 pumps, filling cars from
the large undergound tanks in minutes.
No real surprises and this technology exists today.
Think trains and you know how high-power electronics works
to deliver enough watts from a high V, high A hookup.
At home it would be interesting to fill up in an hour or so,
in case you get home for lunch and want to take off again
in the afternoon, or come back from work at dinner and
like to make a trip in the evening.
Recharging in 1 hour takes roughly 50kW which is over
200A at 240V. That is a lot, but not impossible at home.
It is not required though, if you have the electric service
station on your route - pull in and refill in minutes like
almost everyone does today. At home you can refill during
the night at reduced rate without taxing your existing service.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ultra Capacitors, Aluminum Batteries
"supercapactior" and "ultracapacitor" have no official meaning, and are
essentially meaningless. They do not specify any particular technology
or size.
There are a number of researchers working on the idea now. Unlike
batteries, there do not seem to be hard limits as to what is possible in
terms of capacity/power to size/weight ratios. I mean, there are no
credible claims that a person can make a li-ion with 10x the capacity
per unit weight, or even 5x. But with capacitors, the technical
limitations are unclear. Somebody claiming a capacitor 50x larger than
anything seen before, I'd be skeptical but wouldn't call it impossible
and bullsh*t right off the bat.
The claim of being able to recharge in minutes is problematic. The part
which is unclear is even if the cap could take astronomical charging
currents, where would you get that much current to do it that fast?
Even hooking directly up to your house's 220V mains is nowhere near
enough current to charge that fast before you'd pop the breakers.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
>George F. Hamstra is correct, they are Super capacitors, not ultra
>capacitors. They are a different chemistry.
>
>I brought the subject of super capacitors up about four years ago, and most
>everyone said that was impossible to drive a EV with a capacitor, because
it
>charge would only last seconds.
>
>People back in the 50's said it was impossible for electric cars to go over
>50 miles or to charge a battery in one hour.
>
>If you want to order super capacitors design for EV's (not the type for
>Hybreds) here is the address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>You tell them what voltage and ampere you need plus the weight of EV,
speed,
>acceleration and etc.
>
>For my EV, they said 15 modules of 17 volts each
>would be equal to about 50ah battery at a cost of $40,000.00 which would
>give me a range of 15 miles.
>
>They normally used these for electric buses that have a drive loop of 10
>miles and then they can quick charge them at the end of each loop.
>
>No, I will not used these, I will go back to a battery that is design for
>EV's that I had before. Not these 6 or 12 volts batteries. Something like
>the Exide Tuder EV cells I had before.
>
>Roland
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 7, 2006, at 9:42 PM, Michael Perry wrote:
I can't see any
reason to take an EV out of the driveway/garage, if it can't make the
trip
on EV power. (The exception being when you are taking it to a distant
show.)
I mostly agree with you, but I think the pusher trailer concept is
worth pursuing if:
1) your EV can handle a high percentage of your driving needs
2) a pusher trailer can handle most of the rest (e.g. you don't need a
huge pickup truck for towing a trailer)
Your definitions of "high" and "most" will vary.
Bonus points if you want to take the EV places to show it off. The
pusher trailer is much better than the trailer+tow vehicle you'd
otherwise need.
Even more bonus points if you can simply rent the pusher trailer from
U-Haul when you need it!
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you guys had a look at this:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/781
A little Fiat with a solar panel on top. Maybe you could ask his how he did
it.
Cheers
Christie :0)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NOTE that micro-turbines like the Capstone are
typically promoted (with good reason) to be co-gen units.
They generate heat AND electricity, which increases their
total efficiency if you need pretty constant heat, like
in a hospital, industrial process, ... and you can use or
sell the electricity.
They can meet or beat power plant's efficiency and I hope
also emissions, which are the reasons most of us do this.
Use a turbine in a car iso ICE is almost never efficient
and has unrelated drawbacks, as you indicated.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Power Trailer, was EV pusher Trailer
There is a point to the design if you want to try a radically different
power source like a Capstone Microturbine. They are supposed to have
good emissions and are fairly efficient at producing electricity with an
integrated DC generator head. However, the calculations I recall doing
some time ago suggested similar mpg to the original engine of an
"average" vehicle. Perhaps a bit better, on the order of maybe 20%, but
it was hard to say.
Ordinary generators, I have stated the same case as David on multiple
occasions. It will end up at best a bit poorer mpg (depends on what
vehicle you compare it to), and terrible emissions. It matters not
whether you want to use the gen to charge the batteries slowly while
parked or a big one to provide the motive power as you drive. At best,
if you make the case that using it 10% of the time makes the EV
practical and otherwise you wouldn't own an EV, there's sort of a value
in terms of fossil fuel consumption. In terms of pollution it's way
worse even if only a very minor portion of your driving is done off of
generator power.
Another note was that generators are inherently VERY loud. Adding a car
muffler to the exhaust has significant value, but exhaust noise is only
a portion of the problem.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
>On 6 Nov 2006 at 20:31, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
>
>
>>There is another way to use a EV Trailer, is to have a engine generator
with
>>enough power to drive the EV motor by itself ... It did 22.5 mpg ...
>>
>>
>
>This scheme and its variants has been discussed quite frequently on this
>list. It's very similar to what many EV neophytes hope to do with an APU.
>But while such a machine may indeed be suited to driving an EV cross
>country, it has some downsides for routine use.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
James Massey wrote:
Although Jim has responded already, it depends on what job on the fork
it was doing. If it was the traction motor it should be a series motor...
James, it couldn't have been a traction application series-wound motor,
as it would have had to have had (love the way that reads) 4 terminals,
2 for the armature and 2 for the field so it could be reversed.
As to series-wound in traction use, it's now about a 50-50 split between
the traditional series-wound with EV100 SCR controllers and SepEx with
forklift manufacturer designed SepEx controllers. Pallet Jacks too, have
mostly switched to SepEx systems and most major brands use Curtis SepEx
controllers. A few years back, Crown switched from using series-wound
with F-R contactors in pallet jacks, to SepEx systems, but they just
introduced their AC powered pallet jacks with Curtis AC controllers, so
perhaps the SepEx days are limited? All the jacks though, still use
series-wound for the lift pump work.
The fact that this motor just has the two power studs and is rated at 10
kw, indicates it was probably a lift pump motor. Lift pump motors never
need to be reversed and have to make high torque, so they are almost
always series-wound type and they always have just two power studs.
Raymond's 'ACR' narrow isle reach trucks are an exception and are
entirely AC motor powered, including the lift pump. I did an on-site
customer comparison test between Crown's competitive reach truck, the
RR5200, and the Raymond ACR truck, and measured lift time vs current
draw with identical loads and lift heights...the SepEx drive Crown with
its brawny series-wound lift pump motor easily out hoisted the Raymond
while using less total ahrs from the battery! Other than the Raymond,
most forklift manufacturers that have newer models employing AC traction
motors, still rely on the powerful series-wound motor for the heavy duty
work to be done....lifting! Crown makes the aforementioned RR5200 reach
truck also as an AC drive version, the RR5200S, but again, they keep the
series-wound motor for lifting duties.
>but if it was doing another job it may be a compound motor, like the
one I've fixed up for my trike >project.
Yes, some compound-wound type motors can be found in forklifts, though
they are not all that common. Crown uses compound windings on their low
pressure combination steer and tilt pump motor of the model SC4000
sit-down 3 wheel lift truck, but they use a hefty series-wound motor for
its main high pressure lift pump, and twin SepEx motors for the traction
system. I like to use this model truck for the hands-on portion when I'm
giving my motor/controller classes, because it has three different motor
types in one truck.
From Jeff:
Hey Jim, John,
Does 10 kW continuous for a 65 lb motor sound a bit fishy?
Yes, it does. Even the 7kw rated pump motors are limited to a 1 hr
rating. Most 10kw pump motors weigh about 80-90 lbs. and are rated for
15% duty, not continuous. I've never seen any high pressure lift pump
motor rated at 'continuous', though some do have a 1 hr. rating.
The fact that this two stud motor has a keyed shaft is interesting. Most
lift pump motors have splined shafts, not keyed shafts. Mechanical steer
motors (as opposed to hydraulic steer pump motors) do come with keyed
shafts, but they are nearly always smaller PM type motors, weigh about
30 lbs., and are in the 1kw range.
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used to own one, and I can confirm the aerodynamics of a brick. In
fact, they kinda look like one.
Somebody has done a conversion already:
http://www.renewables.com/ElectricVanConv.htm
A quick Google search supplies a curb weight from 3466 to 3622 pounds.
Jude Anthony
I have an opportunity to purchase a VW Vanagon (water-cooled flat four
engine) with a bad automatic transmission for $500.
Check the weight. I may be thinking of a newer generation VW van, but I
seem to recall that these were pretty heavy and had all the aerodynamics of
a brick. They had about the lowest MPG among all minivans at the time.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My brother and I briefly considered this as a hybrid configuration for
my Honda Civic 4x4 wagon. Unfortunately, getting enough batteries for a
decent EV range AND leaving the gas engine in would have greatly
exceeded the GVWR.
We also couldn't come up with a truly ingenious method of controlling
the thing. I figured the electric should be engaged when the tranny is
in neutral. But then you have to build some kind of accelerator cable
splitter.
Jude Anthony
David Roden wrote:
On 2 Nov 2006 at 8:27, Lawrence Lile wrote:
Another variant of this idea is to use a stock ICE with front wheel drive, and
add an EV motor to a hacked rear wheel drive section.
Some years back, Audi built a prototype like this.
I used to think about making such a conversion with a Honda Civic 4x4 wagon,
or maybe a Subaru Justy 4wd minicar. Just about all the examples are now
long gone to iron oxide here in the rustbelt, though.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>From what I've seen, an EV pusher makes more sense than an ICE pusher...
>> but
> that's just me, I guess, and everyone's need would be different.
>
Absolutely, different strokes for different folks.
If it makes sense to you, then go ahead and build it, let us know how it
works out.
> For the comment "there are modern cars converted"... mostly I've been
> seeing cars that are 1/2 worn out that are converted. I've never seen a
> brand new car that underwent an EV conversion.
I've heard of at least one guy that bought a brand new pickup and
converted it to an EV without EVER having driven it as an ICE. He did
this so that it would qualify for the IRS tax credit.
In fact I think the dealer bought the engine back off him, since it was
brand new, never used.
Another guy is converting a new Toyota Yaris.
There are also a couple folks who have converted, or are converting, some
Honda Insights that are fairly new.
A few have converted some of the New Beatles.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael,
the conversion of a brand new Yaris has been all over this list,
since the Palo Alto EV show and rally.
Most people doing a conversion are like me though.
If I can get a very decent and recent car with little rust and
still a lot of life for under $2000, why should I pay almost 10 times
more only to get brand new, which wears off quickly and a working
engine and emissions control that I am not going to use, plus
a headache in modern computers which seems to be designed to
lock anybody out of the ICE business but the insiders?
Give me a 10 year old sedan with blown engine, straight body and
clean interior, preferably low miles, so I do not need to worry
about upcoming brake/bearing/tranny and other common issues,
while giving me a neat family car and I have the donor that I
dream of to convert.
I did already buy a 91 BMW 325i with blown head gasket, but found
myself in the trap of needing a commute vehicle so I could not
start the conversion, I needed a car. Replacing the gasket fixed
the issue of the commuter, but I could not start converting it as
I was driving it daily. When I found an electric truck, I did not need
the BMW any more and someone else did need a car, so it has moved on.
I actually prefer not to buy new, as too much waste is already
produced and I will do what I can to avoid adding to it.
I hate to see people buy things only to discard half of it
immediately because it is only used to help sell it, not to
contribute to the actual product, such as a 12" gold-colored
plastic dish to hold a handful of chocolats. But I digress.
The phrase from Electro Automotive comes to mind, I think
it goes along the lines of why discard a perfectly good car
just because it's engine is a total loss?
To approach it from a different angle - many people love to
restore old cars. What is wrong with a beautifully restored
Karmann Ghia?
There is a possible donor on SF Craigslist at the moment for $1900
which looks in perfect shape from the pictures. I bet it will
sell quickly for a car with such a design.
You can do a new car conversion if you like, nobody tells you
you can't. That the majority here does not do that means that
there is a good reason for not using new cars for conversions.
But the factory EVs were mostly conversions at heart, with
a few exceptions.
All I can suggest is:
get the car you like,
then make it into an EV you like.
Otherwise you won't be driving it.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 8:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV pusher Trailer
>From what I've seen, an EV pusher makes more sense than an ICE pusher...
but
that's just me, I guess, and everyone's need would be different.
For the comment "there are modern cars converted"... mostly I've been seeing
cars that are 1/2 worn out that are converted. I've never seen a brand new
car that underwent an EV conversion. Perhaps your mileage differs.
For the next comment, drop it by the side of the road? Nope, I can't see any
reason to take an EV out of the driveway/garage, if it can't make the trip
on EV power. (The exception being when you are taking it to a distant show.)
For normal commuting, why use an EV if it can't get the range needed for the
daily drive... and have to rely on an ICE to take up the balance? Why drag
along ICE, just to make a daily journey? Leave it at home, and go with ICE
the whole trip. I'm sure you can explain the reason. To me, a drop of 20% in
ICE range (per gallon) as well as the electric cost... well, it doesn't make
much sense.
There are vehicles out there that compete quite well with EV for "world
saving." If one isn't concerned about heat in the cab (or having an
alternate system) something like the Bajaj might do well. Or go with the
diesel engine, running on bio? Those get around 80MPG on gas, slightly
better on diesel... and have much the same hardships many EVs have. <g>
Of course, it may not even be possible to use an EV pusher with today's ICE
cars, when you look at all the systems involved. Nothing works unless the
computer is running.
...just my thoughts... awaiting rebuttals.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My first guess is it is the relay. But the vacuum switch is too quiet
to hear.
Yes I have a couple of battery powered scopes.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You need to find why/where/when it oscillates,
> it sounds as if the switch opens, and closes a few times.
> Do you have a handheld scope available?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:18 AM
> To: Cor van de Water
> Subject: Re: LED brakelights (Vacuum switch)
>
>
> So I added a factory relay to the bracket on the firewall. It looks
> bone stock and very clean. The only problem is that the relay
> oscillates every time the vacuum switch opens. Can I put a cap
> somewhere to mellow out the oscillations?
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <ev@> wrote:
> >
> > That is how my vacuum is wired:
> > Vacuum Switch - relay - pump.
> > When your pump starts running 100% you only need to pull the
> > relay to stop it. (And _stand_ on the brake pedal)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: CWater@ Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ev@ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 7:52 AM
> > To: Lawrence Rhodes
> > Subject: Re: LED brakelights (Vacuum switch)
> >
> >
> > I remember seeing that one. It just didn't quite make the 5 amps I
> > needed. Although I really like microswitches. I suppose adding a
> > relay would fix it.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <ev@> wrote:
> > >
> > > EV parts has an inexpensive one. Gotta watch the connections.
> They are
> > > weak. Had to solder mine back on. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@>
> > > To: "Cor van de Water" <ev@>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 5:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: LED brakelights (Vacuum switch)
> > >
> > >
> > > > I didn't change the topic clearly enough. My vacuum switch for the
> > > > power brake vacuum pump is seized. I need a new one.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <ev@>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Huh, What is the vacuum switch going to do?
> > > > > Your brake pedal already has a brake light switch
> > > > > if that is what you want.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cor van de Water
> > > > > Systems Architect
> > > > > Email: CWater@ Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@
> > > > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: owner-ev@ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 11:27 PM
> > > > > To: Cor van de Water
> > > > > Subject: Re: LED brakelights (Vacuum switch)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the math. Still, if the hardware is available I
> might as
> > > > > well use it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Where can I get a vacuum switch that can handle 5 amps at 12v?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <ev@>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Normal brake light is 12V 21W
> > > > > > so with DC/DC inefficiencies the 65W can easily
> > > > > > draw more than 80W.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just how often are you braking?
> > > > > > I think that when I add all the time in my 20 - 25 min
> > > > > > commute that I am actually sitting on the brake, it
> > > > > > will total around 2 - 3 min (on level road I do not brake
> > > > > > once stopped, on slight upramp I keep the accelerator
> > > > > > a tiny bit depressed to hold the vehicle with an
> > > > > > unmeasurable amount of current from the pack.)
> > > > > > Just as unmeasurable as the brake light consumption:
> > > > > > If you brake for 3 min that will cost you 1/20 (3min/60min)
> > > > > > times the power consumption (=90W) or about 5Wh.
> > > > > > If your vehicle is well aligned and needs 200Wh/mi this
> > > > > > means that the brake lights cost you 1/40 mile range.
> > > > > > I do not think those 120 feet makes a real difference
> > > > > > that is so much of a cencern that you should worry
> > > > > > about them.
> > > > > > If you drive 1 mph less fast or take off 1/2 second slower
> > > > > > then you are going to gain much more range.
> > > > > > Better focus on tire rolling resistance, bearing quality,
> > > > > > brake drag, aerodynamics and all those other big energy
> > > > > > consumers, before paying attention to the issues below the
> > > > > > 0.1% line.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > YMMV.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cor van de Water
> > > > > > Systems Architect
> > > > > > Email: CWater@ Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > > > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@
> > > > > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > > > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > > > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > > > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: owner-ev@ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 9:35 PM
> > > > > > To: ev@
> > > > > > Subject: Re: LED brakelights
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The emeter shows a drop of .3 amps when I step on the brake
> pedal.
> > > > With
> > > > > > out more accuracy it could be .21 amps at 300v. 60w is close
> to 3
> > > > brake
> > > > > > lamp elements IIRC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 09:20 PM 10/5/2006, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > > > > > > >At 08:55 PM 10/5/2006, Mike Phillips wrote:
> > > > > > > >>I'm wanting to replace my 3 brake light bulbs as they pull
> > .3 amps
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > >>the 300v pack thru the dc-dc. That's just a plain waste.
> Then
> > > > there
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > >>the 2 running light elements as well.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Wow, you must have BRIGHT brake lights. 900W of power!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Somehow I don't think your brake lights are pulling 3A
> out of a
> > > > 300v
> > > > > > > pack.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oops, now I see the decimal point.
> > > > > > > I still doubt your brake lights are pulling 90W of power!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@
> > > > > > > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> > > > > > > http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > > > > The misfits.
> > > > > > The rebels.
> > > > > > The troublemakers.
> > > > > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > > > > The ones who see things differently
> > > > > > The ones that change the world!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark McCurdy wrote:
> don't batteries produce flamable gas?
Not while discharging (unless something is *very* wrong).
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
unsubscribe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found the ad again:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/car/231077034.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EV pusher Trailer
Michael,
the conversion of a brand new Yaris has been all over this list,
since the Palo Alto EV show and rally.
Most people doing a conversion are like me though.
If I can get a very decent and recent car with little rust and
still a lot of life for under $2000, why should I pay almost 10 times
more only to get brand new, which wears off quickly and a working
engine and emissions control that I am not going to use, plus
a headache in modern computers which seems to be designed to
lock anybody out of the ICE business but the insiders?
Give me a 10 year old sedan with blown engine, straight body and
clean interior, preferably low miles, so I do not need to worry
about upcoming brake/bearing/tranny and other common issues,
while giving me a neat family car and I have the donor that I
dream of to convert.
I did already buy a 91 BMW 325i with blown head gasket, but found
myself in the trap of needing a commute vehicle so I could not
start the conversion, I needed a car. Replacing the gasket fixed
the issue of the commuter, but I could not start converting it as
I was driving it daily. When I found an electric truck, I did not need
the BMW any more and someone else did need a car, so it has moved on.
I actually prefer not to buy new, as too much waste is already
produced and I will do what I can to avoid adding to it.
I hate to see people buy things only to discard half of it
immediately because it is only used to help sell it, not to
contribute to the actual product, such as a 12" gold-colored
plastic dish to hold a handful of chocolats. But I digress.
The phrase from Electro Automotive comes to mind, I think
it goes along the lines of why discard a perfectly good car
just because it's engine is a total loss?
To approach it from a different angle - many people love to
restore old cars. What is wrong with a beautifully restored
Karmann Ghia?
There is a possible donor on SF Craigslist at the moment for $1900
which looks in perfect shape from the pictures. I bet it will
sell quickly for a car with such a design.
You can do a new car conversion if you like, nobody tells you
you can't. That the majority here does not do that means that
there is a good reason for not using new cars for conversions.
But the factory EVs were mostly conversions at heart, with
a few exceptions.
All I can suggest is:
get the car you like,
then make it into an EV you like.
Otherwise you won't be driving it.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 8:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV pusher Trailer
>From what I've seen, an EV pusher makes more sense than an ICE pusher...
but
that's just me, I guess, and everyone's need would be different.
For the comment "there are modern cars converted"... mostly I've been seeing
cars that are 1/2 worn out that are converted. I've never seen a brand new
car that underwent an EV conversion. Perhaps your mileage differs.
For the next comment, drop it by the side of the road? Nope, I can't see any
reason to take an EV out of the driveway/garage, if it can't make the trip
on EV power. (The exception being when you are taking it to a distant show.)
For normal commuting, why use an EV if it can't get the range needed for the
daily drive... and have to rely on an ICE to take up the balance? Why drag
along ICE, just to make a daily journey? Leave it at home, and go with ICE
the whole trip. I'm sure you can explain the reason. To me, a drop of 20% in
ICE range (per gallon) as well as the electric cost... well, it doesn't make
much sense.
There are vehicles out there that compete quite well with EV for "world
saving." If one isn't concerned about heat in the cab (or having an
alternate system) something like the Bajaj might do well. Or go with the
diesel engine, running on bio? Those get around 80MPG on gas, slightly
better on diesel... and have much the same hardships many EVs have. <g>
Of course, it may not even be possible to use an EV pusher with today's ICE
cars, when you look at all the systems involved. Nothing works unless the
computer is running.
...just my thoughts... awaiting rebuttals.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got to test drive the Zap Xebra. It really needs to be geared down to
about 30mph.& classed as a moped. It's a little zippy off the line but it
really takes a while to get up to speed. The newer production run vehicles
are better fit and finish. It's cute and practical. Looks like it could
park at 90°. It is a typical conversion that many of us in the EV world
have done. Series motor with a fan to cool it. Altrax 275 amp controller.
Reversing contactor. Brake cutout of the controller on both the emergency
brake and main brakes. Nice emergency cutoff switch under the front seat.
Light and turn signals seem to work well no side marker lights just
reflectors. All the wiring harness are marked for easy spliceing in if you
want to add side marker and turn signals. It drove well and turned well.
I'm not sure about the range but probably close to what an NEV will do. The
speedo was way off by 10mph. There are some first generation vehicles
available for 7k. The cars come into the country without controller and
batteries. It would be really easy to reconfigure the batteries for a
system of higher voltage. I'm sure the motor would take it. A 120v Curtis
& 10 Exides would be a real hoot. You'd have to reconfigure the DC/DC &
charger but I was told the price for a glider would be 8.5k with wiggle
room. It's better than a Cushman with 4 seats, seat belts & shoulder
harnesses. It has glass windows that roll down. There is no trunk but you
could make one for a few things above or next to the motor. I liked it but
I'm checking out other options. Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to ask though, are Capstones with regen any more efficient than
an ICE with regen?
Capturing waste heat is hardly rocket science. It's a heat exchanger.
I couldn't see where a Capstone was any better, in fact if I understand
correctly its exhaust temp is considerably lower than a piston ICE due
to diluting it in a greater volume of air. That would be a lower
quality heat for the Capstone, and there's somewhat less capacity to
boil water before the temp gets too low to do the work.
IIRC the Capstone with its integrated generator head was considerably
better at producing electricity from fuel than a piston generator,
though keep in mind it's not an incredibly huge difference.
When combined with controller/motor losses, there did not appear to be a
remarkable mpg gain over a vehicle's original engine, if any. There are
many variables, not the least of which is the efficiency of the
vehicle's original engine you're replacing.
The Capstone is supposed to be fairly quiet, no jet turbine noise, just
a whoosh of air (box fan?). A piston generator is extremely loud.
If you're looking for a range extender, it's not a bad choice at all
compared to a piston ICE generator. It is still bulky but fairly light
and can produce enough power to keep a sedan cruising on the highway.
Efficiency is ok and the emissions are quite acceptable.
But one must be realistic about the goals. It is doing little if any
better than the original engine for efficiency when your motive power
comes from the Capstone, you'd get far better results buying a hybrid!
Well, you could accomplish the long-sought scheme of a plug-in hybrid
and you can achieve many miles of in-town driving on plug-in power
without sacrificing the capability to go long distances. And you do get
some serious coolness factor here if you can pull off a turbine-powered car.
Capstones had an EV version, which has shown up on ebay for several
thousand dollars in the past. There was a fleet of city buses powered
by these things that got scrapped and I think that was the major
source. However the supply seems to have mostly dried up.
Danny
Cor van de Water wrote:
NOTE that micro-turbines like the Capstone are
typically promoted (with good reason) to be co-gen units.
They generate heat AND electricity, which increases their
total efficiency if you need pretty constant heat, like
in a hospital, industrial process, ... and you can use or
sell the electricity.
They can meet or beat power plant's efficiency and I hope
also emissions, which are the reasons most of us do this.
Use a turbine in a car iso ICE is almost never efficient
and has unrelated drawbacks, as you indicated.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Power Trailer, was EV pusher Trailer
There is a point to the design if you want to try a radically different
power source like a Capstone Microturbine. They are supposed to have
good emissions and are fairly efficient at producing electricity with an
integrated DC generator head. However, the calculations I recall doing
some time ago suggested similar mpg to the original engine of an
"average" vehicle. Perhaps a bit better, on the order of maybe 20%, but
it was hard to say.
Ordinary generators, I have stated the same case as David on multiple
occasions. It will end up at best a bit poorer mpg (depends on what
vehicle you compare it to), and terrible emissions. It matters not
whether you want to use the gen to charge the batteries slowly while
parked or a big one to provide the motive power as you drive. At best,
if you make the case that using it 10% of the time makes the EV
practical and otherwise you wouldn't own an EV, there's sort of a value
in terms of fossil fuel consumption. In terms of pollution it's way
worse even if only a very minor portion of your driving is done off of
generator power.
Another note was that generators are inherently VERY loud. Adding a car
muffler to the exhaust has significant value, but exhaust noise is only
a portion of the problem.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
On 6 Nov 2006 at 20:31, Roland Wiench wrote:
There is another way to use a EV Trailer, is to have a engine generator
with
enough power to drive the EV motor by itself ... It did 22.5 mpg ...
This scheme and its variants has been discussed quite frequently on this
list. It's very similar to what many EV neophytes hope to do with an APU.
But while such a machine may indeed be suited to driving an EV cross
country, it has some downsides for routine use.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have listed a 97 solectria force on ebay item # 330047260763 located near
Rochester ny.this one runs strong and i took it 28 miles the other day with no
problem.it came from transoptions in nj.
mike young
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two questions:
1. Do you strap the batteries into pairs (buddies) and put the buddies in
series, or hook together 2 series strings?
2. Are you running the alternator full time off the tailshaft? If so, what
diameter pulleys are you using?
Thanx,
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2006 8:14:01 PM
Subject: one more done
We have #22 going to the new owner on Friday, Its done and tested, 86 S-10, 144
volt system, I have 20 batteries under the bed, and 4 up front by where the
radiator use to be, ,uses a Curtis 1231C controller, Warp 9 motor, and a RussCo
battery charger @ 3,000 watts, on 110 volts. Since I make my own adapter plates
and couplers, its faster than waiting for the UPS driver to show up, and a hell
of alot cheaper for me, than to buy them. all CNC machined. The springs had 3
leafs on each side added.
This one has A/C, Electric heat, power steering, Vacuum pump for the brakes
and vents. an Alternator for the 12 volt system.Total time was 6 weeks,not my
fastest.but I did have to do body work and paint it too.
# 23 has all the battery boxes made and installed, now the body work and
painting begins ,and still have one more out side, that i bought and was told,"
I changed my mind" after He told me to find a truck and buy it....dumb me, Oh
well one more 2.8 L that ends up in the junk yard.
Wayne & Sharon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: 1966 Karmann Ghia on Craigslist $1900 looks in good state
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 23:48:27 -0800
I found the ad again:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/car/231077034.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com(>Skype:
cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 11:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EV pusher Trailer
Michael,
the conversion of a brand new Yaris has been all over this list,
since the Palo Alto EV show and rally.
Most people doing a conversion are like me though.
If I can get a very decent and recent car with little rust and
still a lot of life for under $2000, why should I pay almost 10 times
more only to get brand new, which wears off quickly and a working
engine and emissions control that I am not going to use, plus
a headache in modern computers which seems to be designed to
lock anybody out of the ICE business but the insiders?
Give me a 10 year old sedan with blown engine, straight body and
clean interior, preferably low miles, so I do not need to worry
about upcoming brake/bearing/tranny and other common issues,
while giving me a neat family car and I have the donor that I
dream of to convert.
I did already buy a 91 BMW 325i with blown head gasket, but found
myself in the trap of needing a commute vehicle so I could not
start the conversion, I needed a car. Replacing the gasket fixed
the issue of the commuter, but I could not start converting it as
I was driving it daily. When I found an electric truck, I did not need
the BMW any more and someone else did need a car, so it has moved on.
I actually prefer not to buy new, as too much waste is already
produced and I will do what I can to avoid adding to it.
I hate to see people buy things only to discard half of it
immediately because it is only used to help sell it, not to
contribute to the actual product, such as a 12" gold-colored
plastic dish to hold a handful of chocolats. But I digress.
The phrase from Electro Automotive comes to mind, I think
it goes along the lines of why discard a perfectly good car
just because it's engine is a total loss?
To approach it from a different angle - many people love to
restore old cars. What is wrong with a beautifully restored
Karmann Ghia?
I'm converting ( about 80% completed) a 2001 Echo. This is very similar to
the current Yaris. The only differences are some sheet metal changes and a
couple of additional bells and whistles.
Here's my reasoning and comments:
1. In the Northeast, there's no such animal as a 10 year old car with no
rust. I did not want to have to deal with rusted out floor pans, rusted out
transmission tunnels, and the need to weld reinforcements onto quesionable
rusted steel ( and hope for the best) - especially since the car will be
carrying more weight than the original ICE version.
2. I wanted a modern, well designed, and roomy car. The Echo ( and, the
Yaris) fit the bill, there. It has a very low CD for a sedan (0.28) and the
ICE version is very efficient. I also have two ICE Echos. The manual (
with LRR tires) gets about 50MPG on the highway.
It also is very lightweight ( 2040 lbs for the original ICE car). For me,
who, like most people, will generally have only one or two people in the
car, a small, light car makes much more sense that a larger sedan or ( as
many people choose, apparently because it's easier to convert) a pickup
truck.
My goal is to reduce energy usage. Why start out with a 18 MPG vehicle when
I can with one that got 40 MPG in it's ICE version?
3. There have been absolutely no problems as far as the vehicle computer.
The computer ONLY operated the engine. I just pulled it out, along with all
of the engine/sensor wiring, and have had no difficulties at all. Everthing
else woks fine.
4. My goal here was to have an all-electric car with the least expenditure
of time and effort. Restoring a rusted hulk ( and I applaud those who do
that) might have taken me longer than the conversion itself.
And, I would still have an old, inefficient car.
5. I could not find a buyer for the engine from my 2001 Echo. All the
local mechanics and recyclers told me that it is VERY rare to ever find
Toyota with a blown engine less than 10 or 15 years old, so they had no use
for the engine. I tried for months but could not find an Echo with a blown
engine.
So, for the $6000 I spent on a modern, efficient car in great shape, I feel
it was well worth it. The alternative would have been a rusted hulk, which,
after restoration, would still be a less efficient car. SInce I bought
almost all of the major parts used ( and made my own adapter) I expect the
total converted cost to me ( including batteries) will be about $10,000.
Not bad.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your cash with
Live Search!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmtagline
--- End Message ---
