EV Digest 6118
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Curtis Sepex motor controllers up on Aussie Ebay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Dual outlet opportunity charging
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: ICE polution figures
by "Kip C Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Beware of this EV supplier
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Multiple NEDRA records
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) 8" ADC, no tailshaft in So. OR
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Multiple NEDRA records
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Solar EV power
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Solar EV power
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Solar EV power
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Beware of this EV supplier
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) RE: Solar EV power
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Multiple NEDRA Records and Production Class
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The Sepex has normal control from 0 to 100%, as it is
only one of the windings that receives the separate
control (the Field winding) so that will not move the motor.
It will only create the field that *can* move the rotor
as soon as there is current flowing through it.
It also prevents run-away (overspeeding) motors when
unloaded. Serial switching of the field and armature
causes a collapsing field when the RMP go up, this is
the famous "field weakening" for higher speed.
On an accidentally unloaded series motor, this will
make it self-destruct from too high RPM.
The Sepex motor has a constant field, generated by
the controller (well, the controller can change it
but it is not affected by the RMPs causing the
armature to generate a high EMF, so the current
collapses)
In a Sepex, unloading the motor will allow it to rev
up a little, but keep a safe speed.
Armature control is identical as in the series motor,
the field could even be controlled with a resistor and
the armature with a non-sepex controller.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Curtis Sepex motor controllers up on Aussie Ebay
At 01:38 AM 9/11/06 -0800, Cor van de Water wrote:
>Forklift. Or NEV / GolfCart.
>You could run a motor-cycle with such a controller,
>but for a car it is usually too little power,
>unless you are OK with a car that can't go on the Freeway
UUhhmm, How about I rephrase that.
What sort of motors are these set up for, knowing that they are NEV/Golf
cart/floor sweeper etc. in their original application. But would the motors
that they are designed for be readily available, and if so would they be up
to the job of (for example) a motorbike?
What kind of behaviour would be expected from these type of systems, do
they "idle" the motor (and so require a clutch) or do they PWM the armature
as well, and allow for pulling away from stop with the motor fully engaged
all the time?
Thank and Regards
[Technik] James
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Behalf Of James Massey
>Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:59 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Curtis Sepex motor controllers up on Aussie Ebay
>
>
>G'day all
>
>Aussie Ebay: ebay.com.au have a couple of Curtis Sepex controllers, 24 to
>36V 400A
>
>http://search.ebay.com.au/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=DC+motor+contr
o
>ller
>
>Item # 190048365243
>http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Curtis-Sepex-dc-electric-motor-controller_W0QQitemZ1
9
>0048365243QQihZ009QQcategoryZ294QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
>and item # 190048365314
>http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Curtis-Sepex-dc-electric-motor-controller_W0QQitemZ1
9
>0048365314QQihZ009QQcategoryZ294QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
>So what are they suitable for?
>
>Regards
>
>[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In theory, yes.
There may be practical issues, like if the resistance in
each of the two cables is not equal (one of the plugs has
a bad contact) then one will carry a higher current than the
other and trip its breaker, the other will try to get the
full current and also trip - now you are *not* charging
instead of charging twice as fast.
Note that any GFCI will automatically trip if you wire two
circuits together, no matter how good you try to balance the load.
So, better make sure that you *can* charge from one outlet at
16 or so Amps, then you may give it a try at 30A *after* you
verified that you can get at the breakers if they trip.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 12:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Dual outlet opportunity charging
I want to charge at C/4.
So if I plug into one outlet I can charge at about 15
amps...If I double the outlets I could charge at
~30amps.
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Correct.
> Why would you want to do that?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of mike golub
> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:15 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Dual outlet opportunity charging
>
>
> but if I'm on the same phase...I'll just get the 120
> vac...Right?
>
>
>
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Without knowing it they are on the same phase or
> > not,
> > you have no clue whether you are going to get 120
> > or 240V! when using two diode bridges.
> >
> > NOTE that with each cord feeding its own diode
> > bridge
> > (a great idea to avoid current flowing out one
> cord
> > when plugging in the other) then each of the two
> > bridges will provide the highest voltage it sees
> to
> > the + output of the bridge and the lowest voltage
> to
> > the - output of any bridge.
> >
> > With the two bridges' outputs connected + to + and
> -
> > to -
> > they can be supplying the same rectified 120V if
> the
> > two circuits are on the same phase.
> > However, if they are different phases, then only
> one
> > diode of each bridge conducts, from the highest of
> > the
> > two 120V phases to the + and from the lowest of
> the
> > two phases to the - output.
> > All other 3 diodes in each bridge will block.
> > This means that the two phases are added and you
> get
> > rectified 240V, approximately 340V, from the
> bridge.
> >
> > NOTE that the bridges must be 400V or higher types
> > or
> > they will fail.
> >
> > It depends on your charger if it can take the 340V
> > input or will fail as soon as you plug into two
> > different phases.
> >
> > NOTE there are so many failure cases with using
> two
> > sockets combined at the same time, that I would
> > advice
> > against it and use appropriate outlets and plugs
> to
> > get the power you want and that is safely
> available!
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> > http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567
> FWD#
> > 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of mike golub
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:56 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging
> >
> >
> > The block heaters typically have the 20amp breaker
> > where the outlet is. If not you can walk about 30
> > feet
> > to the clearly marked box. Most outlets are
> > numbered,
> > and are clearly written which outlet is which. So
> > sometimes you can walk the 30 feet look into the
> > circuit breaker box and see that they are both on
> > separate circuits and if they are on different
> > "phases".
> >
> > But the question remains is it ok to make
> something
> > universal that would use to extension cords to
> > separate diode bridges. I know each will have
> its
> > own 20 amp breaker, but not always on the same
> > phase.
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > --- steve clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "mike golub" >
> > > > I was wondering if I could connect each outlet
> > to
> > > a
> > > > separate diode bridge and then parallel the
> > output
> > > for
> > > > my 120v dc battery pack. (Take the +168v from
> > each
> > > > bridge and each -168v from each bridge, and
> > > applying
> > > > them to my batteries).
> > > >
> > > > Can that work?
> > > >
> > > Only if each out let is on the same leg and if
> > they
> > > both or on different
> > > brakers. You can tell if they are on the same
> leg
> > > buy using a meter and
> > > putting it across the two hot leads , if it
> reads
> > 0
> > > then your on the same
> > > leg , if not it will read 240 ( I would test all
> > > combinations incase the out
> > > let is miss wired ) . Telling if it has its own
> > > braker is going to be
> > > harder. How many watts dose a block heater use ?
> > > another way around this is
> > > with a isolation transformer. This will also let
> > you
> > > plug into 240 . The way
> > > I hooked this one for 240 was to have the ac go
> > > through the ac part of the
> > > bridge rectifier , then through the input of the
> > > isolation transformer , the
> > > other end of the input goes to the other 240 ac
> > wire
> > > . You'll need another
> > > bridge on the out put of the isolation
> transformer
> > > and both bridges have
> > > there out puts going to the batteries . I would
> > > also not just use 1 bridge
> > > but 2 or 3 , and heat sinks and fans .
> > > Steve Clunn ,,,, my spell checker says braker is
> > not
> > > a word hmmmm .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > thanks,
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> > ______________
> > > > Sponsored Link
> > > >
> > > > Talk more and pay less. Vonage can save you up
> > to
>
=== message truncated ===
____________________________________________________________________________
________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, just for semantics, I'll tie it in to EV relevant:
When cold starting our Escape hybrid, the ICE is basically in a high idle
mode at 1500 rpm until it begins to rise to a more efficient temperature.
Until then, the electric drive of the vehicle is the primary source of
motivation for anything but high throttle demand (although it ramps off
quickly after the first 30 seconds or so of driving).
It makes allot of sense when you think about it. The dirty ICE is kept at
low load until it can operate more cleanly and efficiently, and electric
motor is loaded much more heavily than it is during normal warm use, as it
is also at a low startup temperature.
I doubt that the current draw of the electric motor could be sustained very
long after the ICE begins to heat up, so it seems a good tradeoff.
- Kip
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: ICE polution figures
The problem is not just that the cat is not working yet, a cold engine
will be run somewhat rich until it warms up. Automakers are constantly
trying to reduce the startup pollution and I believe they've made
substantial improvements.
Appearance of carbon is not really that relevant anyways. While it's easy
to focus on "look, I can SEE it!" that doesn't necessarily indicate an
overall significance. Particulate carbon and CO/CO2/nitrogen emissions
are very different things.
What was this in regards to again? How's this an EV issue?
Danny
JS wrote:
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On big factor that alway gets left out is at what speed. My ev will go two
times as far on the same power and there for making the same pollution if
instead of driving 70 mph I drive 55.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Lile"
According to the link below, an electric vehicle on coal power would be
a loser as far as CO2 production versus a gasoline powered car. I
thought this was amazing. Electric vehicles reduce dependence on oil,
solve other pollution problems besides CO2, run cheaper per mile than
gas cars, but they don't reduce carbon emissions if the juice comes from
coal power. If it comes from wind or (dare I say it) Nuclear, then they
are much lower in carbon production.
http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=123&archi
ve=1
"A electric car charging from a coal powered grid ( 2.177 lbs C02/kwh)
would generate twice the C02 per mile over a new low emissions IC car.
If you lived in a nuclear or wind / hydro generated area a grid charged
EV car would generate 10 times less C02 per mile then in a coal powered
area and 1/5 the C02 of a IC vehicle."
"These high C02 numbers for a EV were a complete surprise to me. I
thoroughly researched the numbers and received similar numbers from
different qualified sources. Note these numbers represent a newer model
IC car and a small electric car with a 25 kwh battery pack getting about
60 miles from the charge"
Here are some representative numbers for carbon generation. No two
sites can give the same numbers, so you will google and find different
ones if you try:
Gas Cars - about .6KG carbon dioxide per mile (.5 to over 1)
Solar (amortizing the CO2 required to make the panel) .05 LB CO2 /KWHR
Coal Power - 2.177 LB CO2/KWHR
Average US power - 1.55 LB CO2/KWHR
Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and all ,,, I have talked to them or him from time to time . I
don't think he's intestinal trying to rob people . I don't think the Ev
business has worked out the way he though it would . He wanted to sell
some of my cars for me , and maybe have me convert some for people he could
find , So far he hasn't should anything for me , and no conversions jots ,
though I've put my time in , explaining why we can't have a fast 100 mile
distance Ev with lead . The ads for the ev stuff are very old . You
would think he would get tired of telling people "that's the old price ,
today its ,,,,,," but my guess is nobody has ordered anything , like that
zilla for $17xx , ya in my dreams . .
Steve Clunn www.grassrootsev.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "MARK DUTKO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:22 PM
Subject: Beware of this EV supplier
http://www.electrictransport.net
I would like to warn all on the lis regarding the above website. The fact
that they operate a business at all remains to be seen but for over a
month I have tried to get a response back from their website and the
customer service line. I also placed an order a long time ago for which
they have no record and only a customer number. They sell EV parts and
are NOT a authorized retailer for Netgain or other parts they sell. They
will process online orders and take the money but don't expect it to be
sent. I'm not out any money but I wanted to save anyone the frustration.
They do give the industry a very bad name IMO.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An excellent point, Steve. For many slow speed EVs, the mile-per-gallon is
even much less than 1/2 the rating... and 120MPG equivalency is not
uncommon.
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
> On big factor that alway gets left out is at what speed. My ev will go two
> times as far on the same power and there for making the same pollution if
> instead of driving 70 mph I drive 55.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would think the NEDRA folks would have an idea on that. I'm not
really sure for SC classes.
I do know for the Orange Juice dragster the focus has always been the
240 record time set by Circuit Breaker many years ago, so I guess for
us it would be 2 cars. I assume you were kidding about the world record
thing. I must say I've seen some real dog sleds out there along with
others that have unpleasantly surprised the ICE racers.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: Multiple NEDRA records
Yeah, I thought they have all those voltage classes so everyone with an
electric car can be a World Record Holder. It isn't fair if someone is
hogged them all.
How many cars compete in each class?
Jack
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I was just perusing the NEDRA sight and realized a current trend. A
few > vehicles are switching voltages up and down and gobbling up alot
of the > records. I understand in a free world to the victor goes the
spoils but > it makes me kinda sad. I always enjoyed checking out the
record list of > names from all different places, times, and
configurations. Maybe it's > just that I noticed my mother's 96 volt SC
record got wiped recently. > Are there any NEDRA limitations to how
many voltage classes can be held > by one vehicle? I have no doubt for
instance that Dennis could take the > CE dragster from top to bottom
any day of the week he chooses, (Oops I > forgot he's not a member),
but you get my point. I have time slips to > show the Orange Juice
running WAY faster than some of the lower voltage > records but since I
had my sights on Ken and Jim's 240 volt number I > never turned them
in. Does anyone else feel this way or am I just too > sentimental?
> Shawn Lawless
> PS: I guess it's out with the Zapi and lead, in with contactors and
> V28's, and down to Battery Beach with the Electropolitan to grab back
that 96 volt record. Wanna go to Florida mom?
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and >
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from >
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>
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Probably you're all like me, and scout the Trading
Post periodically. But the deal is that I thought my
motor was on the fritz, and a local friend who wanted
to do AC sold me his DC.
Well, I didn't need his DC series wound after all,
so it's up. And with a fried controller right now,
I'd love to unload it. Low hours on it.
$1K.
peace,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dennis,
My California trip has been postponed. I was really looking forward to
seeing the CE run again.
Keep us posted on future runs.
What was your best run in 2003? I thought I had the quickest at 10.80.
How much did you get me by?
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: Multiple NEDRA records
In a message dated 11/9/2006 8:22:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
: Multiple NEDRA records
Date:11/9/2006 8:22:03 AM Pacific Standard Time
From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to:[email protected]
To:[email protected]
Received from Internet:
Yeah, I thought they have all those voltage classes so everyone with
an
electric car can be a World Record Holder. It isn't fair if someone
is
hogged them all.
How many cars compete in each class?
Jack
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>I was just perusing the NEDRA sight and realized a current trend. A
few
>vehicles are switching voltages up and down and gobbling up alot of
the
>records. I understand in a free world to the victor goes the spoils
but
>it makes me kinda sad. I always enjoyed checking out the record list
of
>names from all different places, times, and configurations. Maybe
it's
>just that I noticed my mother's 96 volt SC record got wiped
recently.
>Are there any NEDRA limitations to how many voltage classes can be
held
>by one vehicle? I have no doubt for instance that Dennis could take
the
>CE dragster from top to bottom any day of the week he chooses, (Oops
I
>forgot he's not a member), but you get my point. I have time slips
to
>show the Orange Juice running WAY faster than some of the lower
voltage
>records but since I had my sights on Ken and Jim's 240 volt number I
>never turned them in. Does anyone else feel this way or am I just
too
>sentimental?
>
>Shawn Lawless
>
>PS: I guess it's out with the Zapi and lead, in with contactors and
>V28's, and down to Battery Beach with the Electropolitan to grab
back
>that 96 volt record. Wanna go to Florida mom?
>_______________________________________________
Well since my name is in this post I will reply.Shawn is correct in
posting
the CE dragster could take all the voltage class records(if I were to
become a
nedra member again)But you will not see me doing this,I do not think it
fair
to upcoming competitors.
I am
also
building a S10 pu to race in the SC class between 240 to 348 volts.I
plan on
using this pu as a daily ev driver.To race in the SC class however one
canot
have
a rear end other than the stock housing.I did not read all the rules
however
before I built the S10,so I did put in a 9in.ford already.So I assume
(if I
join nedra again in the future)that I will be in the pro street
class.After
reading about the current SC class record holders its come to my
attention that
they may indeed also have 9in ford rears.So my question to nedra can
the rules
be
bent?And how much? Dennis Berube
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I drive off of solar power. Indirectly. 21 panels on my roof at home
spinning my meter backwards. Hey another rule of thumb, that is about 1
panel per battery in my EV.
I have created enough power in one year to drive 14,000 miles in an EV
at 300wh/mile.
Put the panels on the roof of the house. or...How about asking your
employer if you can put up a shaded "carport" for your car. Get 4 panels
on that thing and plug your car in. Now you park in the shade and your
pack is healthier if not recharged.
Lets do a little math. (Assume 300wh/mile)
The sun hits the earth with a 1000W / sq meter (this is called 1 sun)
panels are about 17% effient so about 150W /panel
So if a panel sat in full sun for 2 hours, I could drive 1 more mile.
If I could get 2 sq meters for 300w(but it needs to face the sun)
("Excuse me sir, I'll be right back, i gotta go re-position my car?"), I
can get a mile for every hour parked. Now even in the central valley we
have a rating if 5 full sun hours a day. So... 5 mile to work and all
sunny days and you got it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wooo, hang on, modules are not that efficient. Commercial solar modules have
peak efficiencies of 13-14 % for multicrystalline. Take into account temp
derating, etc etc etc like optimal tilt, dirt, and the occasional bird
dropping which can reduce power prduction of a solar array by half or 100%
then we are talking very minimal gain. But its COOL.
A Carport would be great. Lets say i am a hard working employee, then if the
employer decides to install me a secial carport with a 1kW peak array, then
i will be cheering, charge up directly from solar, bypass all the losses
associated with inverters etc.
On my vehicle, my boost converter mppt the power from the solar panels. Its
very rough, but all it does is it keeps the modules at their Vmpp. And have
max current at this setting. I don't care of overcharge because what is 2
amps overcharging a 130 Ah @ c20 over a period of a working day.Cheers
On 10/11/06, Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I drive off of solar power. Indirectly. 21 panels on my roof at home
spinning my meter backwards. Hey another rule of thumb, that is about 1
panel per battery in my EV.
I have created enough power in one year to drive 14,000 miles in an EV
at 300wh/mile.
Put the panels on the roof of the house. or...How about asking your
employer if you can put up a shaded "carport" for your car. Get 4 panels
on that thing and plug your car in. Now you park in the shade and your
pack is healthier if not recharged.
Lets do a little math. (Assume 300wh/mile)
The sun hits the earth with a 1000W / sq meter (this is called 1 sun)
panels are about 17% effient so about 150W /panel
So if a panel sat in full sun for 2 hours, I could drive 1 more mile.
If I could get 2 sq meters for 300w(but it needs to face the sun)
("Excuse me sir, I'll be right back, i gotta go re-position my car?"), I
can get a mile for every hour parked. Now even in the central valley we
have a rating if 5 full sun hours a day. So... 5 mile to work and all
sunny days and you got it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your figures don't tell the real story.
A panel rate dto produce 150 watts is rated to produce them while cool, at
high noon, in the middle of summer, in Arizona, while pointed directly at
the sun.
The main problems are: the panel heats up when exposed to the sun, so
power drops. High noon only occures for a brief period of time, as the
sun moves power drops. As you move away from the middle of the year, power
drops. If you live further north, power drops. If the panel isn't
pointed directly at the sun, power drops.
Now the panel manufacturer knows all of this, so they compensate for it.
A panel designed to charge a 12V battery normally produces max power at
around 17 volts or so. However, the panel's rating assumes it will be
outputing 17 volts.
When you hook it up to a battery, the battery pulls the voltage down. The
current goes up a tiny bit, but not enough to maintain the rated power.
It might be rated to produce 8.8 amps at 17V, but you will only get maybe
9 amps at 13V.
So even if you have a cool panel, at high noon, etc. it doesn't produce
150 watts, it produces 13V * 9A (give or take) = 117 Watts, and this is
BEFORE you start loosing power for not pointing directly at the sun, not
being noon, not living in Arizona, etc. etc. etc.
So if you get 5 hours of sun, you don't EVER get 5 * 150 watts, you get
maybe 1/2 of that. That of course assumes you have them on a stationary
mount poinrting more or less towards the noon sun. Mount the panel on the
top of you vehicle, and you'll get even less.
Run you output through a DC-DC converter to charge the vehicle, and you'll
get even less.
You can overcome a few of these problems.
You compensate for the voltage difference between the panel and the
battery by using a MPPT, basically a DC-DC converter that tries to keep
the panel producing near is maximum output.
If you have the panels on a fixed mount, you can also add a sun tracker to
keep the panels pointed at the sun.
However even if you combine both of these options, you won't see full
rated output. Also both of these options are somewhat expensive, in fact
it's usually cheaper just to buy more panels.
> I drive off of solar power. Indirectly. 21 panels on my roof at home
> spinning my meter backwards. Hey another rule of thumb, that is about 1
> panel per battery in my EV.
> I have created enough power in one year to drive 14,000 miles in an EV
> at 300wh/mile.
>
> Put the panels on the roof of the house. or...How about asking your
> employer if you can put up a shaded "carport" for your car. Get 4 panels
> on that thing and plug your car in. Now you park in the shade and your
> pack is healthier if not recharged.
>
>
> Lets do a little math. (Assume 300wh/mile)
> The sun hits the earth with a 1000W / sq meter (this is called 1 sun)
> panels are about 17% effient so about 150W /panel
> So if a panel sat in full sun for 2 hours, I could drive 1 more mile.
>
> If I could get 2 sq meters for 300w(but it needs to face the sun)
> ("Excuse me sir, I'll be right back, i gotta go re-position my car?"), I
> can get a mile for every hour parked. Now even in the central valley we
> have a rating if 5 full sun hours a day. So... 5 mile to work and all
> sunny days and you got it.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info, if he can't respond to three e-mails and four v-
mails over three weeks, and can't process or confirm an order, then
he should find another business to be in. They only have an answering
service and it's the worst customer service I have ever encountered
on the web or otherwise. No wonder he has not sold anything for you...
Why process an order and take a customers money if you are not going
to ever ship?
One would be better shopping at a camera store in Brooklyn...
M
On Nov 9, 2006, at 7:24 PM, steve clunn wrote:
Hi Mark and all ,,, I have talked to them or him from time to
time . I don't think he's intestinal trying to rob people . I
don't think the Ev business has worked out the way he though it
would . He wanted to sell some of my cars for me , and maybe
have me convert some for people he could find , So far he hasn't
should anything for me , and no conversions jots , though I've put
my time in , explaining why we can't have a fast 100 mile distance
Ev with lead . The ads for the ev stuff are very old . You
would think he would get tired of telling people "that's the old
price , today its ,,,,,," but my guess is nobody has ordered
anything , like that zilla for $17xx , ya in my dreams . .
Steve Clunn www.grassrootsev.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "MARK DUTKO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:22 PM
Subject: Beware of this EV supplier
http://www.electrictransport.net
I would like to warn all on the lis regarding the above website.
The fact that they operate a business at all remains to be seen
but for over a month I have tried to get a response back from
their website and the customer service line. I also placed an
order a long time ago for which they have no record and only a
customer number. They sell EV parts and are NOT a authorized
retailer for Netgain or other parts they sell. They will process
online orders and take the money but don't expect it to be sent.
I'm not out any money but I wanted to save anyone the
frustration. They do give the industry a very bad name IMO.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm
"A electric car charging from a coal powered grid ( 2.177 lbs C02/kwh)
would generate twice the C02 per mile over a new low emissions IC car.
Is this counting the co2 produced in the production of gasoline and
coal?
Gas Cars - about .6KG carbon dioxide per mile (.5 to over 1)
Solar (amortizing the CO2 required to make the panel) .05 LB CO2 /KWHR
Remember that this is an unfair comparison unless you factor in the
co2 produced to make the gasoline?
-Tehben
On Nov 9, 2006, at 2:21 PM, Lawrence Lile wrote:
According to the link below, an electric vehicle on coal power
would be
a loser as far as CO2 production versus a gasoline powered car. I
thought this was amazing. Electric vehicles reduce dependence on oil,
solve other pollution problems besides CO2, run cheaper per mile than
gas cars, but they don't reduce carbon emissions if the juice comes
from
coal power. If it comes from wind or (dare I say it) Nuclear, then
they
are much lower in carbon production.
http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?
page=blogentry&authorid=123&archi
ve=1
"A electric car charging from a coal powered grid ( 2.177 lbs C02/kwh)
would generate twice the C02 per mile over a new low emissions IC car.
If you lived in a nuclear or wind / hydro generated area a grid
charged
EV car would generate 10 times less C02 per mile then in a coal
powered
area and 1/5 the C02 of a IC vehicle."
"These high C02 numbers for a EV were a complete surprise to me. I
thoroughly researched the numbers and received similar numbers from
different qualified sources. Note these numbers represent a newer
model
IC car and a small electric car with a 25 kwh battery pack getting
about
60 miles from the charge"
Here are some representative numbers for carbon generation. No two
sites can give the same numbers, so you will google and find different
ones if you try:
Gas Cars - about .6KG carbon dioxide per mile (.5 to over 1)
Solar (amortizing the CO2 required to make the panel) .05 LB CO2 /KWHR
Coal Power - 2.177 LB CO2/KWHR
Average US power - 1.55 LB CO2/KWHR
Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These figures p[roably are correct, but are a worse case scenario and don't
take several other factors into account.....there is no age to the figures,
and due to the fact that , presumably, the US is slowly inmplementing a
renweable energy policy the lb/kwh for 'US Power' is going to be continually
reducing....add to that the fact that more coal fired stations are being
converted
to run on gas, or they at least should be, this figure for CO2 from US Power
is one that Americans should not necessarily dispute but instead hold it up
to the governemnt declaring it to be disgraceful.........and be careful that
they don't start taxing you for CO2 production
Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) >
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Without quoting accurate sources for all the numbers given, blogs like
this are just one more persons unsubstantiated opinion.
Mike
>
> "A electric car charging from a coal powered grid ( 2.177 lbs C02/kwh)
> would generate twice the C02 per mile over a new low emissions IC car.
> If you lived in a nuclear or wind / hydro generated area a grid charged
> EV car would generate 10 times less C02 per mile then in a coal powered
> area and 1/5 the C02 of a IC vehicle."
>
> "These high C02 numbers for a EV were a complete surprise to me.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter,
"Full Sun hours" is something else as "Hours of sun".
The "Full Sun Hour" is a virtual term and defines the
amount of power you would get with the sun at noon position
for 1 hour long.
So, a 12 hour day can deliver between 5 and 6 Full Sun Hours
by accumulating all partial power received between dawn and
dusk and dividing the total energy by the power at noon,
on a perfect sphere and at the equator you would get exactly
6 hours Full Sun per day (irradiation on a rotating sphere
surface works out to be 1/4 of the total time in Full Sun hours.
Note that this assumes a steady panel, only adjusted for the
right inclination according latitude.
Solar tracking can deliver more than this, but never reaching
twice as much (12 hours of sun, but the sun is travelling through
an increasingly thicker layer of admosphere at low inclination,
so even a 2-axis tracker cannot compensate for the increasing
absorption loss at low angles.
You are absolutely correct with the wildly optimistic power
figures for solar panels.
Not ethat solar panels are guaranteed for a very long period of time,
for example 25 years, but they are guaranteed to have still 80%
of their output at any time and often does the manufacturer
guarantee that the new panel will deliver "not less than" a certain
power in standard test conditions (STC) and this percentage is
can be for example 90% of the specified power,
so a 150W panel delivers not less than 135W at room temp (25 deg C)
while being blasted with equator-noon sun.
In the real worlds, the temp does not stay anywhere near room temp
when anything is blasted with this power - it will quickly get hot.
Solar cells deliver lower voltage when they get hot.
That is one reason why they are designed for 17V to charge a 12V
battery - they will drop in voltage and deliver maybe 15.5V hot.
That leaves very little margin for voltage drop in cabling and
in the charge controller.
In fact, if you have any distance between the solar array and
batteries then you will see that the charge current is affected
when the panels are suppposed to deliver their max power, due to
the voltage not being sufficient to push enough current through
the (wire) resistance, as the panel voltage is hardly higher than
the battery voltage while charging.
MPPT trackers for 12V battery charging are often not worth their
cost as the resulting increase in charge current is so little, except
when you are in a cold climate.
In series-connected strings the MPPT becomes more important and is
often integrated into the inverter to which the stings connect
directly, either to charge batteries or to push the power back
into the grid.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 10:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Solar EV power
Your figures don't tell the real story.
A panel rate dto produce 150 watts is rated to produce them while cool, at
high noon, in the middle of summer, in Arizona, while pointed directly at
the sun.
The main problems are: the panel heats up when exposed to the sun, so
power drops. High noon only occures for a brief period of time, as the
sun moves power drops. As you move away from the middle of the year, power
drops. If you live further north, power drops. If the panel isn't
pointed directly at the sun, power drops.
Now the panel manufacturer knows all of this, so they compensate for it.
A panel designed to charge a 12V battery normally produces max power at
around 17 volts or so. However, the panel's rating assumes it will be
outputing 17 volts.
When you hook it up to a battery, the battery pulls the voltage down. The
current goes up a tiny bit, but not enough to maintain the rated power.
It might be rated to produce 8.8 amps at 17V, but you will only get maybe
9 amps at 13V.
So even if you have a cool panel, at high noon, etc. it doesn't produce
150 watts, it produces 13V * 9A (give or take) = 117 Watts, and this is
BEFORE you start loosing power for not pointing directly at the sun, not
being noon, not living in Arizona, etc. etc. etc.
So if you get 5 hours of sun, you don't EVER get 5 * 150 watts, you get
maybe 1/2 of that. That of course assumes you have them on a stationary
mount poinrting more or less towards the noon sun. Mount the panel on the
top of you vehicle, and you'll get even less.
Run you output through a DC-DC converter to charge the vehicle, and you'll
get even less.
You can overcome a few of these problems.
You compensate for the voltage difference between the panel and the
battery by using a MPPT, basically a DC-DC converter that tries to keep
the panel producing near is maximum output.
If you have the panels on a fixed mount, you can also add a sun tracker to
keep the panels pointed at the sun.
However even if you combine both of these options, you won't see full
rated output. Also both of these options are somewhat expensive, in fact
it's usually cheaper just to buy more panels.
> I drive off of solar power. Indirectly. 21 panels on my roof at home
> spinning my meter backwards. Hey another rule of thumb, that is about 1
> panel per battery in my EV.
> I have created enough power in one year to drive 14,000 miles in an EV
> at 300wh/mile.
>
> Put the panels on the roof of the house. or...How about asking your
> employer if you can put up a shaded "carport" for your car. Get 4 panels
> on that thing and plug your car in. Now you park in the shade and your
> pack is healthier if not recharged.
>
>
> Lets do a little math. (Assume 300wh/mile)
> The sun hits the earth with a 1000W / sq meter (this is called 1 sun)
> panels are about 17% effient so about 150W /panel
> So if a panel sat in full sun for 2 hours, I could drive 1 more mile.
>
> If I could get 2 sq meters for 300w(but it needs to face the sun)
> ("Excuse me sir, I'll be right back, i gotta go re-position my car?"), I
> can get a mile for every hour parked. Now even in the central valley we
> have a rating if 5 full sun hours a day. So... 5 mile to work and all
> sunny days and you got it.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn, Dennis, John and Steve
Thanks for letting us know about the NEDRA Records and Production
Class issues.
I have summarized the concerns and sent them to the NEDRA Board with
my proposed revisions to correct the typos on the website. As
webmaster, I will put up the changes as soon as the Board Members
(Brian, Father Time, Roderick and Ken Koch) are fully aware of the
concern and approve the corrections.
But in the meantime, I will discuss the typos in the site. And this
will help clear up Dennis' concern about the SC and PS class and
Steve's concern about the Production Class.
STREET CONVERSION AND PRO STREET CONVERSION
First typo and Dennis' concern: John Wayland's car is actually in the
"Pro-Street" class NOT the "Street Conversion" class. On the website
his record is incorrectly shown as "SC/A3" and it should be "PS/A3".
John and I have discussed the issue this evening.
I have made the change in Dreamweaver on my Mac, but like I said, I
need to make sure the NEDRA Board is fully aware of it before I post
it up. NEDRA President, Brian Hall, is responsible for the Records
page and he needs to be notified first before I post up the change.
Since John's car is in the Pro-Street class this should allay Dennis
concerns about his project. From what he has mentioned so far I
believe his truck is also in the Pro-Street class since he has a Ford
9-inch rear but we will have to know the full details about the specs
first. We welcome Dennis' new truck to race in 2007.
Second typo: In the "Description of Classes and Voltage Divisions"
table below the records we have "SP" for ProStreet and this should be
"PS". "SP" is actually for Street Production. That's my bad.
Third typo: My bad again. In the Class and Voltage table below the
Record Holders - in Voltage Division, A2 should be "301 to 348"
instead of "300 to 348". It is correct on the "Class Rules" page.
PRODUCTION CLASS
Which brings us to Steve's concern about the Production Class, we do
in fact have a class for OEM EVs and that is the "Street Production"
class. There are 6 NEDRA records in this class. But at this time we
have not yet written a detailed description of this class like we
have done for the "Street Classes". This class is for production EVs
like the Sparrow, the EV1 and RAV-4 EV.
We also have classes for Dragsters (DR), Motorcycles (MT) and (HS)
High School vehicles, but NEDRA still needs to write up detailed
descriptions for these classes.
We wrote up the "Street Class" descriptions first since this has
accounted for most of the questions concerning the technical issues
of these vehicles. It took us three months to write that up and get
the technical details ironed out.
Since we put up the new "Street Classes" NEDRA was in the process of
recruiting a new Technical Director. Now that Ken Koch from KTA
Services is on-board as Technical Director and as soon as he has
finished some other priorities he will help write up the new class
descriptions for the Street Production, Dragster, Motorcycle and High
School Classes.
These should be ready by the 2007 racing season.
So please bear with us. Like I said as soon as the NEDRA Board
discusses these latest concerns we will update the site ASAP. I made
the changes but have not put them up on the server until the other
Board members know and approve. It can't be done now because it's
4:00 am my time and the Board will probably not get to my email until
the weekend.
VEHICLES TAKING MULTIPLE RECORDS
In response to Shawn's concern NEDRA has in place a rule concerning
this issue which is at the bottom of the Record Holder's page
Briefly what this says is that you can only have one record per day.
This prevents racers from changing pack voltages in any single event.
"If you wish to submit a new record holder time, the rules are as
follows:
* You (the owner of the vehicle) MUST be a member of NEDRA at the
time the record is set.
* Send two time slips (the times must be within 1% of each other)
from runs made on the same day at any NHRA sanctioned track or a
NEDRA sanctioned event, information about the track, track contact,
event date, vehicle class and voltage division, vehicle specs, driver
and owner as well as a photo of the vehicle to . . ."
Since racers are allowed to get records on an approved NHRA track
there isn't anything we can do to prevent them from racing one
weekend and getting a record then the next weekend changing the
battery pack to a different voltage and to get another record. As
long as they don't do it in the same day that is fine.
Once we have more cars and bikes racing this should thin out the
field. But since we have so few vehicles actively racing today this
is going to be an issue.
I would suggest people build and race cars and bikes. Take a look at
the Records page and build a vehicle you feel can compete in a
particular class. We would love to see more vehicles on the Records
Page.
Hopefully this should clear some issues up.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
