EV Digest 6130
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV suppliers
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: [BULK] Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV suppliers
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Vacuum pump switch oscillations
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Water heaters
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Water heaters
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: motor paint
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: motor paint
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: subscribe ev Ben Apollonio
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Vacuum pump switch oscillations
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: go kart ideas and parts sources
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV A program for the Dems: Energy Independence, free NiMH, oil tax
by Mike Swift <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Water heaters
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Water heaters
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Raptor issues?
by "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Maybe one to rescue in NY?
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: [BULK] Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Harvey wrote:
Might you be referring to Electro Auto. Has anyone heard from them in
person? I have a kit outstanding (ordered in August). They have not
returned calls or email for over a month. Frustrating....
there was bit of a lag, but i receive a response from them today about
an adapter order. it seems they have been crushed with orders...for what
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Transformer oil is well-tested and fairly inexpensive. This makes it a
good choice for a common-person's inverter. I'm using some Shell
Diala-AX given to me by a friend (who builds Tesla coils using it).
http://www.shell-lubricants.com/products/pdf/DialaAX.pdf
A few weeks ago I just finished building an IGBT inverter. I found out
how inefficient it was, and abandoned it. Why waste precious energy in
an electric car? The MOSFETs I'm hoping to use are at least ten times
as efficient at city cruising speeds (and up to 100 times less
conduction loss!). MOSFETs can be run closer to their rated voltage
because avalanche failure is not as sudden ("purely a thermal
phenomenon", says IR). That said, I'm attempting to put them in series.
I'll be doing lots of testing to prove the concept.
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irf2907zs-7ppbf.pdf
By my recent measurements, a 1/16" wide by 2" long "one ounce outer
copper" trace with 10A through it has a reduced thermal resistance of
12C/W in still oil compared with 20C/W in still air. The temperature is
reduced from about 90C to 60C. This is quite a small trace to handle
10A. In water, this trace can handle half-second bursts of up to 50A!
Water is terrible for the MOSFETs / IGBTs. It's their quickest failure
mode (source: IR website, reliability). But the dried, purified, and
inert mineral oil will hopefully protect them. Dipping the inverter in
oil greatly extends the life of the components with regard to
temperature rise and thermal expansion; imagine any other way to cool a
C-core inductor with windings on both sides! The oil flow is mainly
unobstructed, so high rates will be possible.
- Arthur
On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 15:10 -0600, Lawrence Lile wrote:
> Neat trick with the transformer oil. If you are using silicone oil, it
> is not too flammable, and probably a great heat transfer fluid.
> (Theoretically distilled water would work for this also, but it'd suck
> all the copper out of your traces trying to become ionized water, then
> it would be a fine conductor)
>
> I would usually think about IGBT's for a 450V controller. Good luck
> with this, keep us posted.
>
>
> Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 1:38 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [BULK] Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> Importance: Low
>
> Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
> > I'm currently attempting to build a 450V, 100kW AC controller from 75V
> > MOSFETs. It will be immersed in transformer oil to increase the PCB
> > traces' current rating (try it in water, it's neat).
> >
> >
> 450V controller from 75V mosfets? How'd you do that?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Sandman wrote:
Mike Harvey wrote:
Might you be referring to Electro Auto. Has anyone heard from them in
person? I have a kit outstanding (ordered in August). They have not
returned calls or email for over a month. Frustrating....
there was bit of a lag, but i receive a response from them today about
an adapter order. it seems they have been crushed with orders...for what
...it's worth...lol...email got cut off :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
When did these oscillations occur?
Are your vacuum switch contacts dirty
and/or without spring pressure so they
open/close constantly when they should
be "ON", from random vibrations?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 12:51 PM
To: EVDL; US Electricar
Subject: Vacuum pump switch oscillations
Gents,
I tried 3 different circuits to see if they would get rid of the vacuum
pump relay oscillations. The first one with a 555 timer. It would not
start the count down correctly. The second one was a simple
capacitor/resistor/fet circuit that worked on the bench perfectly. It
is adjustable from .5 to 4 seconds of delay time after the vacuum
switch opens. The third circuit was just a 1000uf electrolytic cap
across the relay coil, not the contacts. According to my scope, there
are no more oscillations from the pump relay with this cap. The voltage
just does a quick downward taper. There were dozens, maybe hundreds of
oscillations per second without the cap according to the scope. So, I
installed the cap this morning and will drive it around to see how it
does. I also tried 220, 47 and .10 uf caps too. They helped, but were
not 100% effective like the 1000uf cap.
Don, you might give the cap a try and see if it helps your truck.
I checked Eddies Saturn vacuum pump, and it operated perfectly, of
course.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Nov 2006 at 13:53, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> I meant out of all pure EVs demonstrated, there was none with ceramic
> heater (unless I missed it).
I suppose it doesn't really count, since it's really a conversion, but the
Solectria Force used a ceramic element.
Intriguingly, though, my Force - literally the first one made - came with a
liquid heater, with PWM to control heat output. I'm sure they had some
reason for switching to ceramic elements - cost? Reliability?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The ceramic heater element's resistance is highly dependent on temperature.
The effect is that the hotter it gets, the less current it draws.
It is not completely a constant-power device, but ceramic heaters can be
used over a wide variety of voltages without problems, as long as
you guarantee a minimum air flow to avoid overheating, so as many
EV'ers have done, it is wise to either defeat the "off" setting
on the fan an have it run always at low setting, or switch the
element off when the fan is switched off.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 12:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Water heaters
The switch used on the stock heater control is a thyristor which will
not work on DC. It won't be able to turn off. You can replace that
with a relay or MOSFET.
The thermal overload may be a mechanical on-off switch (rare) or a
one-time thermal fuse. In either case there is a concern about their
ability to interrupt a DC current.
There's a bit of an issue to worry about in terms of voltage vs power.
With the heater resistance more or less constant (not sure how true this
is for a water heater) the power output varies with the square of the
voltage. So a pack at 144V is 171% of the heat at 110V. This can be
significant. Presumably you'd use a temp control to turn the power off
as it heats up, but without a PWM scheme it can confuse the Peukert
capacity for the pack by drawing large currents for a few sec or minutes
then shutting off. A more constant draw is preferrable to long-period
on-off cycles.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
> Mark McCurdy wrote:
>
>> oooo, I like this one, full bridge so it can take ac or dc, diodes
>> for isolation?
>> need someone to ascii out a diagram that I can wrap my mind around :op
>
>
> There is nothing in a heater that necessarily cares whether it is
> powered from AC or DC. The circuit for a water heater is just a
> heating element in series with a thermostat switch, and an
> overtemperature cutout switch.
>
> The simplest scheme would be to use DC-rated switches for each of
> these, and connect it directly across the battery pack. It is DC
> powered while you are driving, and AC powered (via your charger) while
> parked and charging.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correct, speeding up for a tailgater
(how much that goes against your feeling)
is not the right thing, as it will give the
wrogn signal to the tailgater (his bad behavior
pays off) as well as he usually does not back off
anyway and tailgating at high speed is more
dangerous than at low speed, so the universal
recommendation when tailgated is to not change
your speed.
If I see that someone "sticks" behind me even
while there are enough opportunities to pass me,
they invariably are on the cell phone.
Only if I judge that they a dangerously close to
me in their absent-mindedness, I may engaged the
emergency flashers to indicate that my judgement
is they are posing a threat to me.
Usually they get the message.
If not, well - usually they hang up after a while
and suddenly come storming past, realizing the way
is clear once their mind has returned to the road.
I continue with my 55 to 60 mph speed in the truck
lane and pass them when they are in line for the
next off-ramp.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 1:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
On 13 Nov 2006 at 8:21, David Brandt wrote:
> The usual method is to tailgate to force you to go faster.
This subject seems to crop up on the list every few months. Although it
often generates a long and partly off-topic thread, I don't think it's an
inappropriate subject. This IS of concern to many EVers, those who choose
to drive lower-powered EVs. It's also of uinversal concern to anyone who
chooses a more efficient, lower powered vehicle, regardless of fuel.
What it boils down to is that it's a violation of traffic law to tailgate.
You can hope that a police officer spots the antisocial behavior, but it's
not likely to happen. If the person causes a collision, it'll be his fault,
but that's rather cold comfort when you're looking at $25k worth of smashed
lithium batteries (or whatever). Carry good insurance.
Of course you want to prevent a collision. It may be a controversial
position, but I don't think speeding up helps. All it does is encourage the
tailgater, and often he falls back only a little. (And with some EVs
speeding up isn't an option anyway. ;-)
As for me, when someone tailgates me, I do nothing. I don't speed up or
slow down. I don't make obscene gestures. I don't flash the brakelights.
I act as if I don't know he's there. Eventually the tailgater will either
exit the freeway (that's why he's usually in the right lane, where I hang
out), or pass with a roar and a belch of foul-smelling cat [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Which is
fine.
I suspect that very few of these people are actually nuts enough to cause an
accident that would scratch up their shiny new $40k metal monster machines.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:13 PM
Subject: motor paint
For painting DC motor, Is high temp rustoleum black sufficient? (after
taping inlets and terminals with tape)
Some of the high temp Rustoleum paint goes on flat and frosty looking. some
of these high temperature paint need a high temperature to cure, otherwise they
will not get hard. Other paints will need a primer, that why I prefer the
Rustoleum appliance epoxy paints that I use in a satin for rough finishes and a
high gloss for smooth finishes and stainless steel for aluminum finishes which
gets hard as porcelain. They are easier to keep clean.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I appreciate your concerns.
There are many block heater outlets that aren't being
used at all. Even today at -30F there were plenty
around. Now, if I was in a busy parking lot I
wouldn't to do it.
It seems perhaps the safer thing to do is to get a bad
boy circuit out of 240vac to produce more amps than
the typical 120vac bad boy?
Today, was a disaster. Yeah I left fully charged, but
I didn't have a chance to increase the amps on my
charger,(from low to high on my bad boy). I had a
physics exam, and I didn't have chance to get back to
my truck to flip the switch. So I had to stop halfway
from the house to do some opportunity charging. It
took 3 hours. I did some shopping, but it would have
been better if I could have done it 1.5 hours. I was
plugged at a parking lot that was empty.
I ran out of juice about a mile before my house. So I
rode in really slowly.
I don't plan to be impolite. Several weeks ago, my
truck also ran out of juice. There I sat about a mile
away from home. Then some helpful neighbor came out of
nowhere with a can of gasoline. I said thanks but...he
finished what I was trying to say. He said,"it's
electric." He then offered to tow it, but I told him
it would come back to life...and he left realizing I
was correct...
so there are different degrees of being (im)polite.
One other way I have extended my range is by driving
slower. However, even this will upset people...so by
using an under utilized block heater outlet is not
such a big deal...perhaps I can make it safer.
If I could design a circuit that would address the
issues.
Also the 20 amp breakers are not GFIs, but they are 20
amps, that tend to trip at 18.5 amps.
So again thanks for your comments so I can explain
myself a little more.
Michael
Fairbanks, AK
--- "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On 9 Nov 2006 at 12:06, mike golub wrote:
>
> > If I double the outlets I could charge at ~30amps.
>
> I think someone made the point that his could be
> hazardous (to you, possibly
> to bystanders, and to your vehicle). But another
> concern occurs to me.
> What about the other guy who can't plug his block
> heater in because you're
> using the receptacle next to his parking space?
> Seems like it might be
> considered impolite.
>
> Besides, without isolation transformers, the person
> could pull your plug to
> plug in his heater, and get a possibly fatal shock
> from it.
>
> Also, if these receptacles are protected by GFIs,
> they may trip when you try
> to use the receptacles this way.
>
> With isolation transformers things are certainly
> safer. However, there is still
> a (rather remote) possibility of shock hazard should
> both rectifiers fail shorted
> in a particular way.
>
> I think this is a rather risky enterprise you're
> contemplating.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 10:13 PM
Subject: motor paint
> For painting DC motor, Is high temp rustoleum black sufficient? (after
> taping inlets and terminals with tape)
> Hi EVerybody;
I have used Rust Olium for battery boxes, motors, that sort of thing.
But I have branched out to Spray Auto Hy Temp Engine enamel, the Ford Green,
Chevy? Orange and GM, I think dark green. They dry to a nice hard finish.
Have sandblasted aluminum trannys, and motors to get them nice an' clean,
for painting. But Diuct tape all openings on a tranny, AFter ya change out
all the oil seals, while ya have it on the bench! Then stuff stays super
clean in the car's afterlife.Washing stuff with soapy water a paintbrush,
and hose and EVerything is fresh painted enamal, it will give youan EV grin
standing still.Guess I should move onto Epoxy paint but I have had good luck
sopraying a;ll the battery box area with undercoating over the Rust Olium.
My two spray cans worth.
Bob
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/531 - Release Date: 11/12/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This mean Ben is joining the living? Hoo Hah! BEN wherethehell ya been?
Welcome back, guy!Car running yet? Get us up to speed here<g>!
Seeya?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 10:12 PM
Subject: subscribe ev Ben Apollonio
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/531 - Release Date: 11/12/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The pump is a Gast. It works fine. I thought about the Square D
switch, but it is huge for the space I have and pricey. So I added a
relay to the run the pump. Then fixed the oscillation with the cap.
Right now it shuts off perfectly and it only cost me $20. We'll see
how it lasts.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm apparently coming into this thread late, and I am
> not an EE. That said, I'd replace the relay, and make
> certain that my vacuum pump switch is a Square-D,
> courtesy of KTA services. It is much more expensive,
> but worth it on the chatter & reliability end. Ie, too
> many vac. pump switches have the on-off points too
> close to work effectively with a Thomas pump. Better
> yet, get a GAST. Set it at 10 mmHg, and 22 mm Hg.
> Use a decent reservoir, and get up to 4 actuations per
> pull from the pump!
> My 0.02.
> peace,
>
> --- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Gents,
> >
> > I tried 3 different circuits to see if they would
> > get rid of the vacuum
> > pump relay oscillations. The first one with a 555
> > timer. It would not
> > start the count down correctly. The second one was a
> > simple
> > capacitor/resistor/fet circuit that worked on the
> > bench perfectly. It
> > is adjustable from .5 to 4 seconds of delay time
> > after the vacuum
> > switch opens. The third circuit was just a 1000uf
> > electrolytic cap
> > across the relay coil, not the contacts. According
> > to my scope, there
> > are no more oscillations from the pump relay with
> > this cap. The voltage
> > just does a quick downward taper. There were dozens,
> > maybe hundreds of
> > oscillations per second without the cap according to
> > the scope. So, I
> > installed the cap this morning and will drive it
> > around to see how it
> > does. I also tried 220, 47 and .10 uf caps too. They
> > helped, but were
> > not 100% effective like the 1000uf cap.
> >
> > Don, you might give the cap a try and see if it
> > helps your truck.
> >
> > I checked Eddies Saturn vacuum pump, and it operated
> > perfectly, of
> > course.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> http://new.mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Couldn't you put one isolation transformer on each 120 volt outlet?
Then connect 2 of the 4 wires together and use the other 2 wires to power a
220 volt charger?
mike golub wrote:
If I double the outlets I could charge at ~30amps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Something else concerns me here. You mentioned you have a "bad boy" charger
on the truck, presumably onboard. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.
These by nature aren't isolated from the line. If there should be some
leakage current in the battery wiring, your truck could be "hot" with
respect to ground. If you should happen to be plugged in to a receptacle
whose ground is open (or you cheated and didn't ground the cord), someone
could be shocked or even electrocuted. I've read that children can be
killed or injured by currents that would only be an annoyance to adults, so
this is nothing to be careless about. I can just see the headline - "Boy,
7, electrocuted by electric car."
Please get an isolated charger, or an isolation transformer. I hope you at
least have a GFI. If not, get one right away - and use it every time you
charge.
It's one thing to use a "bad boy" charger in your own garage. But without
wanting to upset or insult you, I have to say that I have some problems with
the ethics of using an unisolated and unprotected charging system in a
public place.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, see the go-karts at www.evalbum.com. They have their own section.
I have a fast 48V setup. I used a kit from KTA for most of the parts, but got
a smaller motor. There is an excellent 50V, 2000A lever operated emergency
disconnect switch available from www.waytekwire.com. I also usually buy
crimp-on battery lugs and terminals there. Also, sprockets, axles, bearings,
brake bands, etc. can be had at www.gokartsupply.com. There are more, just
google for go kart parts. These folks just had the particular kartco parts I
needed.
On mine, the controller and batteries were from www.surpluscenter.com, and the
cart itself, as well as some of the building materials, were surplus.
It's fast, but is down while I put in stronger supports for the batteries that
don't hang down so far - my daughters hit something last time out and buckled a
support. On the bright side, one held everything up without problems.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Joe Vitek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 10:11:21 PM
Subject: go kart ideas and parts sources
I know this may have been discussed in the recent past, but since I am on the
digest, I probably missed it.
I would like to use a go-kart as a test bed for smaller motors and controllers
(my own project with a friend). The side benefit being that my daughter will get
to have some fun with an electric go-kart. I think Lee is involved with stuff
like this.
1. Who, on here, has built an electric go-kart that performs as well or better
than the ones you can get with the 5hp Briggs&Stratton? Details?
2. What are some good parts sources for chassis, wheels, brakes, axles, etc.?
3. What size series motor would be good for an app like this?
4. This will be for an asphalt/concrete track.
I am thinking of doing a 48V setup with two batts between the leg area and two
behind the driver. I would like something really torquey and fun, but not
something that necessarily will do wheelstands (well, wheelstands would be fun
too ;).
Any ideas, suggestions, links to manufacturers, or flames are welcome. :)
--
joe vitek
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good information. Thanks.
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Something else concerns me here. You mentioned you
> have a "bad boy" charger
> on the truck, presumably onboard. Correct me if I'm
> wrong about this.
>
> These by nature aren't isolated from the line. If
> there should be some
> leakage current in the battery wiring, your truck
> could be "hot" with
> respect to ground. If you should happen to be
> plugged in to a receptacle
> whose ground is open (or you cheated and didn't
> ground the cord), someone
> could be shocked or even electrocuted. I've read
> that children can be
> killed or injured by currents that would only be an
> annoyance to adults, so
> this is nothing to be careless about. I can just
> see the headline - "Boy,
> 7, electrocuted by electric car."
>
> Please get an isolated charger, or an isolation
> transformer. I hope you at
> least have a GFI. If not, get one right away - and
> use it every time you
> charge.
>
> It's one thing to use a "bad boy" charger in your
> own garage. But without
> wanting to upset or insult you, I have to say that I
> have some problems with
> the ethics of using an unisolated and unprotected
> charging system in a
> public place.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while
> you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how:
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> = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses
> will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email
> address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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> = = = = = = =
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Once isolated can they be added to make
30amps-120volts?
--- Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Couldn't you put one isolation transformer on each
> 120 volt outlet?
> Then connect 2 of the 4 wires together and use the
> other 2 wires to power a
> 220 volt charger?
>
> mike golub wrote:
> If I double the outlets I could charge at ~30amps.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 11, 2006, at 3:44 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: November 11, 2006 9:02:49 AM PST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: A programme for the Dems: Energy Independence, free
NiMH, oil tax
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I'd be happy if they'd just quit subsidizing the oil companies.
amen!
The price of gas has already started to rise; there's no reason to
believe that the oil companies won't use the excuse of "peak
oil" to
jack prices as high as they wish, and reduce competition and
regulation
while they can.
Yup. After years of keeping the price of gasoline lower than bottled
water, they have finally allowed it to go up to near it's real cost.
Right now, however, it's falling back to previous levels. A shame
really,
while it was at $3 a gallon even the republicans were talking about
electric cars.
i suspect that since the elections are over, will see a price
correction back toward the real cost. might even go much higher
this time. it would be in the interest of the republican
constituents (i.e. oil companies and such) to push the prices very
high in an attempt to show the voting public that they made a
mistake in changing the guard--a silly tactics but one can hope.
this might be a win for EVs, IMHO. when gas passes $4/gal and
starts sneaking up on $5, americans will start demanding
"something" be done. this "something" could be EVs if a few other
things fall into place.
For those on the list who don't know approximately 6% of world oil is
owned by private oil companies, i.e. Standard Oil, Texaco Oil,
Exxon, Shell, etc. Another ~20% is controlled by private oil
companies in the form of short to long term contracts with the oils
owners, mostly governments. The rest, approximately 74%, is
controlled by governments directly like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq,
Mexico, Argentina, Russia, Kuwait, UAE. By far the largest share of
money from oil pumped goes to governments. As an example Alaska, and
the U.S. government take 66% of Alaskan oil sales. Mexico takes 60%
of Pemex's income from oil, and Argentina takes 82%. So people who
rail against "the oil company profits", or "they are lowering prices
to help the Republicans", and are silent on the government windfalls
show that they more anti-capitalist than wanting to solve a problem.
We are now at Peak Oil, and no amount of subsidies will increase
production. Especially as the private oil companies are at best only
25% of the market. This combined with the GM announcement that there
future will be electric vehicles with a "fuel converter" for
extending range bodes well for electric autos.
Mike Swift
Two things only the people anxiously desire, bread and circuses.
Decimus Junius Juvenalls
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Water heaters
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:42:05 -0800
The ceramic heater element's resistance is highly dependent on temperature.
The effect is that the hotter it gets, the less current it draws.
And, at least for the one I bought from KTA, the current is also lower when
it's cool ( for instance, when first turned on) .
The ceramic heater element, when mounted in my car, draws less current at
very low AND very high blower speeds. There is a "sweet spot" in the middle
of the blower range where it draws the most current ( and, produces the most
heat).
One beneficial side effect is that it is easier on the relay to make the
initial connection at low current.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What should be done with the ground leg when using a bad boy charger? Grounding
the chassis would seem to be a very bad idea. I don't want to be the battery to
ground bridge, and having a good ground available would make that more likely.
The GFI makes sense. FWIW, GFI doesn't require a ground.
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:44:20 AM
Subject: Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
Good information. Thanks.
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Something else concerns me here. You mentioned you
> have a "bad boy" charger
> on the truck, presumably onboard. Correct me if I'm
> wrong about this.
>
> These by nature aren't isolated from the line. If
> there should be some
> leakage current in the battery wiring, your truck
> could be "hot" with
> respect to ground. If you should happen to be
> plugged in to a receptacle
> whose ground is open (or you cheated and didn't
> ground the cord), someone
> could be shocked or even electrocuted. I've read
> that children can be
> killed or injured by currents that would only be an
> annoyance to adults, so
> this is nothing to be careless about. I can just
> see the headline - "Boy,
> 7, electrocuted by electric car."
>
> Please get an isolated charger, or an isolation
> transformer. I hope you at
> least have a GFI. If not, get one right away - and
> use it every time you
> charge.
>
> It's one thing to use a "bad boy" charger in your
> own garage. But without
> wanting to upset or insult you, I have to say that I
> have some problems with
> the ethics of using an unisolated and unprotected
> charging system in a
> public place.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while
> you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses
> will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email
> address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = =
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does this mean that the recent paranoia about burning up my car with one is
somewhat overblown? What happens to one of these if the only airflow is
convective currents. How hot will they get if there is no fan running?
----- Original Message ----
From: Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:53:35 AM
Subject: RE: Water heaters
>From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: Water heaters
>Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:42:05 -0800
>
>The ceramic heater element's resistance is highly dependent on temperature.
>The effect is that the hotter it gets, the less current it draws.
>
And, at least for the one I bought from KTA, the current is also lower when
it's cool ( for instance, when first turned on) .
The ceramic heater element, when mounted in my car, draws less current at
very low AND very high blower speeds. There is a "sweet spot" in the middle
of the blower range where it draws the most current ( and, produces the most
heat).
One beneficial side effect is that it is easier on the relay to make the
initial connection at low current.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Nick and Bob, I appreciate the help. I'm
guessing the Cherokee is a somewhat more demanding
vehicle than my little Mazda pickup. At this point I'm
thinking I'll just leave the controller stock and see
what happens. If it quits, then I guess I'll just have
to eat the cost and/or find a new (less expensive)
hobby. At this point, on my limited budget, I think
I'll chance it.
Thanks!
Andrew
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Andrew A. wrote:
> > So, has anyone else out there had issues with the
> > Raptor? If so, what was the application (i.e.,
> > voltage, amp draw, type of vehicle, etc.)? Any
> help
> > would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I had a Raptor 600 in my Jeep Cherokee for a while
> running off of a
> 160-Volt nominal system. The only major problem I
> had with it was that
> the pin connectors between the control board and
> power board in the case
> became corroded and as a result a pin in one of the
> sockets broke.
>
> This then intermittent connection between the boards
> caused all sorts of
> weird problems, from the controller providing no
> power to the motor, to
> cutting in and out abruptly, to thinking it was
> overheating and severely
> throttling back the motor current, etc. Several
> talented friends from
> AustinEV helped me by replacing both pin socket
> connectors on the
> control board, and that fixed all of the problems I
> was having.
>
> Though I did later upgrade to a Zilla 1K controller
> because I wanted a
> higher-current controller mainly so I could increase
> my low-end torque
> and thus acceleration.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> --
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> http://www.ACEAA.org/
> --------------------------
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.flickr.com/photos/franklynch/276816517/in/pool-artgineering
It's apparently here:
Concord Street. Brooklyn, NY.
Anyone in that area know anything about it? Looks like a commutacar?
Regards
Nikki
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like you've done your homework on this. It's true that MOSFETS
are extremely efficient - as close as we have come to an ideal switch. I
knew that they could be easily paralleled, but didn't realize that they
can be series connected as well! Agreed that water is terrible as a
practical electronics coolant.
Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Arthur W. Matteson
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 9:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [BULK] Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
Transformer oil is well-tested and fairly inexpensive. This makes it a
good choice for a common-person's inverter. I'm using some Shell
Diala-AX given to me by a friend (who builds Tesla coils using it).
http://www.shell-lubricants.com/products/pdf/DialaAX.pdf
A few weeks ago I just finished building an IGBT inverter. I found out
how inefficient it was, and abandoned it. Why waste precious energy in
an electric car? The MOSFETs I'm hoping to use are at least ten times
as efficient at city cruising speeds (and up to 100 times less
conduction loss!). MOSFETs can be run closer to their rated voltage
because avalanche failure is not as sudden ("purely a thermal
phenomenon", says IR). That said, I'm attempting to put them in series.
I'll be doing lots of testing to prove the concept.
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irf2907zs-7ppbf.pdf
By my recent measurements, a 1/16" wide by 2" long "one ounce outer
copper" trace with 10A through it has a reduced thermal resistance of
12C/W in still oil compared with 20C/W in still air. The temperature is
reduced from about 90C to 60C. This is quite a small trace to handle
10A. In water, this trace can handle half-second bursts of up to 50A!
Water is terrible for the MOSFETs / IGBTs. It's their quickest failure
mode (source: IR website, reliability). But the dried, purified, and
inert mineral oil will hopefully protect them. Dipping the inverter in
oil greatly extends the life of the components with regard to
temperature rise and thermal expansion; imagine any other way to cool a
C-core inductor with windings on both sides! The oil flow is mainly
unobstructed, so high rates will be possible.
- Arthur
On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 15:10 -0600, Lawrence Lile wrote:
> Neat trick with the transformer oil. If you are using silicone oil,
it
> is not too flammable, and probably a great heat transfer fluid.
> (Theoretically distilled water would work for this also, but it'd suck
> all the copper out of your traces trying to become ionized water, then
> it would be a fine conductor)
>
> I would usually think about IGBT's for a 450V controller. Good luck
> with this, keep us posted.
>
>
> Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 1:38 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [BULK] Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> Importance: Low
>
> Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
> > I'm currently attempting to build a 450V, 100kW AC controller from
75V
> > MOSFETs. It will be immersed in transformer oil to increase the PCB
> > traces' current rating (try it in water, it's neat).
> >
> >
> 450V controller from 75V mosfets? How'd you do that?
--- End Message ---
