EV Digest 6139
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Water heaters
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: watthour meter AC side
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Batteries
by howard maroz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Email or Web address doubles up.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: shunt motor controller help
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: go kart ideas and parts sources
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lead acid terminal types
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EVLN(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Changing Output Voltage on Zivan NG3 Battery Chargers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: go kart ideas and parts sources
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EVLN(Nay sayers said Tom Carpenter's EV conversion was a
no go)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EVLN(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Batteries
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Water heaters
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Battery chemistry questions
by "R Patterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lead acid terminal types
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: micro-CHP another way to charge?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Why do they Bother? WAS(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Blocking all airflow seems an extreme test. How did they fare with convective
flow?
It sounds like the voltage should be dropped to like 120v? What would be the
best way to do this?
Thanks,
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:32:20 AM
Subject: Re: Water heaters
>> Hot enough to melt plastic air ducts and start fires!
canev wrote:
> Have you had this experience?
I've melted down a couple inexpensive ceramic heaters in testing them at
their limits. But I haven't had any of Randy Holmquist's elements or
heaters to test.
The inexpensive ones were in $20-$40 heaters. I found that the plastic
frame used to hold the ceramic element, the fan blades, and other
related parts were NOT able to withstand the peak temperature that the
heater could produce. They melted! But, they had thermal fuses and
cutouts that (in theory) prevented them from getting this hot.
In anticipation of using one in my EV, I tried blocking all airflow and
running it on 132vdc (my pack voltage at the time). Going by memory, it
got up to about 250 deg.F where it melted its plastic support.
The ceramic element's current does indeed fall as it gets hotter. When
completely blocked, it fell from a peak of 9 amps to under 0.5 amps at
120vac and nearly 300 deg.F.
Another thing to watch out for is the effect of higher voltage. At these
very high temperatures, a small increase in voltage caused a large
increase in current. When I tried 132vdc, the current went up to 1 amp
and got even hotter, but my thermometer didn't go past 300 deg.F.
> I had a fleet customer with a Nissan pick up a few years (12 years)
> ago that had a defective heater relay... It had done no damage to
> any of the duct or the element...
It is good to hear that he had a safe outcome. It may have been due to a
superior heater design, or just plain luck.
All I'm saying is that the cheap ceramic elements I tested were *easily*
capable of getting hot enough to melt all the plastic in their mounting,
and the ductwork in your car.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody tried the TriMetric? http://www.bogartengineering.com/trimetric.htm
They suggest that a resistor could be used to divide input voltage by 10. That
could make it usable from 120-480v. I believe it handles 400 amps. For under
$200.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:04:35 AM
Subject: Re: watthour meter AC side
mike golub wrote:
> What do you use to measure watts when dealing with more than 15amps.
> The killowatt, and wattsup, don't go that high. Perhaps I could beef
> one up?
I have several old analog wattmeters in various sizes. The "old
standard" method of measuring AC amps and watts is with a current
transformer. They look like a big donut. The wire whose current is to be
sensed goes thru the hole in the center. The secondary is wound to
produce 5 amps at the full-scale current for the current transformer.
Let's start with current. Just as DC ammeters are typically 50
millivolts full scale, AC ammeters are typically 5 amps full-scale; they
depend on the current transformer to convert whatever current you want
to measure to this 5 amps.
Analog AC wattmeters have two coils; a voltage sensing and a current
sensing coil. The current sensing coil is exactly as described above;
built for 5 amps AC full-scale. The voltage sensing coil is usually
wound for some arbitrarily high AC voltage, with a resistor in series
with it to give you the desired maximum voltage (120vac, 240vac or
whatever).
The useful thing about analog meters is that they can be trusted not to
lie on the high side. Weird waveforms, odd frequencies, and high peaks
are either accurately displayed, or the meter reads low (ignores them).
Digital meters can produce bizarre results, either high or low, with odd
waveforms and high crest factors.
The Kill-a-Watt measures AC watts with an internal shunt. You could
replace this shunt with a different one to get a higher full-scale
reading for current, watts, and watthours. For example, you can replace
it with a shunt of 1/10th the resistance, and multiply all the displayed
values for current, watts, and watthours by 10. Note that this new shunt
will generate 10 times the heat; you'd have to mount it externally to
get adequate cooling.
The Watts-Up only measures DC volts and amps. It also has an internal
shunt, which could be changed. One additional limitation of the Watts-Up
is that it only counts positive amps; you have to physically rewire it
to get both charge and discharge current.
>> Does anyone recommend an AC side WattHour Meter? I am specifically
>> looking for something that I can mount on the car so I can
>> accurately track input power wherever I charge.
The classic glass cased watthour meters you have on the side of your
house work fine for this. They are available used from many sources at
good prices.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My daily commute is 20 miles each way with a 5 mile 10 degree uphill leg on the
return. I can recharge the batteries prior to the return leg for 6 hours, 115v
@ 20 amps. It has been recommended to use 20 US Battery 200 ahr golf cart
batteries but I am concerned about the return trip which is mostly uphill,
gradual grades with the exception of the big one mentioned. My battery budget
is $10K. The 75 mile range would be for occasional driving. Suggestions?
Howard
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well, the first question is, why do you need 75 miles range? Is this your
daily commute or just the maximum distance you want to go on the rare
occasion?
Second important question; how deep are your pockets? LiIOn could do that
easily, but it might be cheaper to buy a Porsche.
> I am new to this list and I'm sure this question has been asked many times
> in the past. I am building a Wombat Kitcar on a VW Beetle chassis and I
> initially thought I could get a reliable 75 mi range at 55 mph using golf
> cart batteries. After much research it does not look like I will achieve
> this range using lead acid batteries of any kind. I need some help in
> learning what options are available to give me this range. Any
> suggestions are appreciated.
>
> Howard
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
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>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
$420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/month - Think You Pay Too Much For Your
Mortgage? Find Out!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Nov 2006 at 8:11, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Do you notice that sometimes the Email address in the T0: ev @ list ..... is
> double for some reason and at other times it is not.
I think in some cases the listserver may be adding the "human readable" part
of the name. Email addresses can take the form of
"Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Where the part in quotation marks is ignored for routing purposes. It isn't
uncommon to see the email address duplicated there. It is of no
consequence.
> Some times when I or
> other's send a E-mail and comes back it may be double or not.
>
> Also the same thing happens when listing a WEB address in the email.
Similar effect here. The mail client is trying to create a link in the
email, usable in html mail, but it is reproduced as plain text. It might be
better if you could configure the mail client to NOT do this.
I'm not sure what your concern is here. AFAIK, these effects cause no harm,
aside from using a trivial amount of additional list bandwidth.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Nov 2006 at 11:01, steve clunn wrote:
> >The controller is made by PMC out of Berkley, CA with a disconnected phone
> >number. It is rated at 96v, and 400 amp max. Model looks like DCC96v and
> >Serial 1423.
That's an ancient controller. The DCC range was build in the mid to late
1970s. Some of them went into Bradley GT factory electrics and a few were
fitted to Comuta-Cars and Comuta-Vans. I used to have the series motor
version in my Comuta-Car (not factory fitted).
The DCC-xx controllers used bipolar transistors and chopped at 4kHz. I was
told that as these transistors age, their on resistance increases, which
reduces their current handling capacity (fortunately the current limit
measures voltage drop across the transistors, so it cuts back the current to
more or less protect them - unless you decide to try trimming it back up
again!). The transistors do eventually fail, as mine did, and I think that
type are now long out of production.
PMC was purchased by Curtis, which I think used PMC designs in the PMC-xx
range of controllers in the mid-1980s. (I had one of those too. ;-)
However, Curtis has long since stopped supporting these controllers. Most
likely the best they will do for you (and they might not even do this any
more) would be to give you a few bucks for it on a trade-in.
It might be possible to find someone who could reverse engineer the
controller, but fixing it would be a major undertaking, and probably cost
more than it's worth.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Nov 2006 at 8:00, David Brandt wrote:
> David Roden is using some
> BLDC motors, I believe.
No, that must be someone else.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
So it sounds like you removed the flag and bolted these directly to the
stud. Is that correct? Because I have an existing pack with what USB
describes on their site as the UTL. Can I retrofit these 22206 by removing
the UTL posts? Or am I stuck with these posts until they die.
Thanks, Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
Hello Lee,
The flag type terminals were on my 2 nd battery pack from 1985 to 1991.
They were the large ones with a 3/8 hole. The post with the hole was
given to a me which I gave them to a EE friend of my to run his VW bug,
but they did not last long.
On my Trojan T-145's which are a low profile post, which I should have
never got, the studs started to pull out at 75 in.lbs.
These post pads are about 1 inch in diameter and only 3/8 inch high. So
WirthCo send me several samples to try. The 22206 which are all positives
can be expanded to one inch with out breaking. All the others were too
high and could not be expanded to 1 inch ID without breaking.
This terminal not only makes contact around the pad, but also contacts the
top surface of the L pad and can torque to over 100 inch lbs with
additional downward pressure by using the top stud and washer tool.
These are now running about 5 years with no problem. Think as it as a
large terminal lug, but is 1 inch in diameter instead of 5/15 in. These
battery terminals are still as bright today as when they were new.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
Roland Wiench wrote:
> I have used three different type of battery post. The L terminal,
> the post with a hole in it, and the standard auto post with a stud.
> In all three, I used a 2/0 size cable lug with a 3/8 hole.
>
> The L terminal post had a recommended torque of 90 in.lbs, but would
> not stand up to the pressure. They would continue to shrink, and the
> post would keep flattening more until the post developed cracks.
A clarification please, Roland. You were using a ring terminal with a
3/8" bolt hole, and 2/0 wire, on all of these terminals?
- The L terminal has no stud; it is just a vertical square tab
with a 5/16" bolt hole in it. Did you bolt your ring terminal
to it with a 5/16" bolt, or drill it out for a 3/8" bolt?
- Likewise for the round automotive post with two flat sides an
a hole through it. That hole is even smaller, 1/4" at the most.
What size bolt did you use?
- The auto post with a stud has a 5/16" stud, so you have no
choice here.
I'm trying to figure out why you used a ring terminal with a 3/8" hole
when none of these battery terminals is built for this size bolt.
One set of batteries I had, back then in 85, had two different size
studs, a 5/16 for the negative and 3/8 for the positive. So I used a very
heavy duty plated mil spec. terminal lug which is about 1 inch in diameter
surface contact.
In general, my own results match yours:
The L terminal is good for ease of use and low cost, but it isn't
particularly good for high currents (anything over 200 amps continuous).
There's no point in using 2/0 cable with an L terminal, because the
terminal is your weak point.
The automotive post with two flats and a hole drilled in it is a Mickey
Mouse setup that works equally bad at everything. I wouldn't even use it
at 100 amps.
The terminals with a 5/16" stud are intended for low current loads, like
75 amp golf carts. You should never use it for high currents; it will
quickly fail and give you lots of trouble.
The old automotive post is the best high-current connector. They hold up
to at least 300 amps continuous, and survive peaks over 1000 amps. But
for it to work, you need a good terminal. Not the cheap cast lead ones,
or made out of bent sheet metal! I like the solid copper ones, though
brass is also good.
Both copper and brass need to be completely covered, or they will
corrode. I prefer lead-dipped, but tin or gold also work. Note that the
gold plating on terminals is usually cosmetic only; the gold is too thin
to have any real effect on corrosion.
> To solve this problem, I ordered ring type battery connectors from
> Wirthco.com. These are like the marine type but is forged brass,
> with a removable bolt that is gold plated... part #22205
Do you mean
http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401>
This is a showy cheap terminal, of the temporary repair type; not one
built for good performance.
I'd suggest #22120 instead, and then lead-dip it after the wire is
installed. Notice the thicker cross section, larger contact area, two
bolts instead of one, etc.
http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399>
These did not work, because these T-145 pads are 1 inch in diameter and
would not set all the down against the pad L bar. Need the thinner one
which fit just right.
Trojan offer to install the auto post on them, but It would cost me about
$1000.00 to ship them back to them and back to me. So I will make do,
with these until I get new batteries, which may not be the lead type.
Roland
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe that was the electric Smart car we talked about after it came
up on eBay. It took awhile for someone to say it's not a Smart car but
the Chinese knockoff, we couldn't tell from the exterior pics. I doubt
anyone who's not an expert (such as an observant Smart owner) would
recognize the difference.
From what I can tell, they didn't just make a car that copied their
styling. I think they took apart a Smart and straight copied the
individual parts themselves, at least the visible ones. I don't know if
they copied the internal components too.
I find it fascinating that it was financially viable to tool up an
entire vehicle production line based on copied plans, when they had to
have known full well that it was likely that the real mfg would kill
them before too long. When you think about it, being able to tool up
and build an entire car as a "bandit" operation is actually pretty
impressive.
Danny
GWMobile wrote:
Just how much did it look like it?
It must have been a LOT.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce,
typical method is to send it back to Greg in California to be modified for
change in voltage.
$40 shipping and $40 for Greg to change the resistor.
you may be able to do it yourself, but I don't know where to direct you.
let me know how you fare. In case I ever change voltage I'd like to know.
I changed from 192 Volts and Nicad setting to 156 volts and lead acid
setting, so it only made sense to send it back to California (especially
since the chager had been sitting on a friend's shelf for 4 year, so having
Greg test it was a good feeling.
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you confused David with my go-cart
http://www.qsl.net/w8rnh/gocart/gocart.html
It has my BLDC motor/control. These motors are used
on commercial transit and tour busses for the
evaporator and condenser cooling systems.
They are rated up to 2.2 Hp continuous.
Just like many forklift motor ratings, they can put
out much higher power for short periods on EV's like
go-carts. The carts in this picture have 3" stack
stators and I was able to go 30MPH. I'm currently
designing some 6" stack motors for another bus
application and will probably have an 'extra' that can
be tried out on the go-cart.
I'll report back with the progress when the motor
design is finished.
Rod
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 15 Nov 2006 at 8:00, David Brandt wrote:
>
> > David Roden is using some
> > BLDC motors, I believe.
>
> No, that must be someone else.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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> address from
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:29 PM 11/15/2006, you wrote:
EVLN(Nay sayers said Tom Carpenter's EV conversion was a no go)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5672838&nav=0Rce
Man's electric car offers `nice smooth ride'
If you want to see more of Tom's EV, its in the Album at:
http://evalbum.com/719
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course, we don't even know if the car existed... or was a knock-off
photo-shopped into production. The seller's claims (100 mile range, freeway
speeds, off of 6 batteries) was not even close to reality.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: EVLN(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)
> I believe that was the electric Smart car we talked about after it came
> up on eBay. It took awhile for someone to say it's not a Smart car but
> the Chinese knockoff, we couldn't tell from the exterior pics. I doubt
> anyone who's not an expert (such as an observant Smart owner) would
> recognize the difference.
>
> From what I can tell, they didn't just make a car that copied their
> styling. I think they took apart a Smart and straight copied the
> individual parts themselves, at least the visible ones. I don't know if
> they copied the internal components too.
>
> I find it fascinating that it was financially viable to tool up an
> entire vehicle production line based on copied plans, when they had to
> have known full well that it was likely that the real mfg would kill
> them before too long. When you think about it, being able to tool up
> and build an entire car as a "bandit" operation is actually pretty
> impressive.
>
> Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: howard maroz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:06:51 -0800 (PST)
My daily commute is 20 miles each way with a 5 mile 10 degree uphill leg on
the return. I can recharge the batteries prior to the return leg for 6
hours, 115v @ 20 amps. It has been recommended to use 20 US Battery 200
ahr golf cart batteries but I am concerned about the return trip which is
mostly uphill, gradual grades with the exception of the big one mentioned.
My battery budget is $10K. The 75 mile range would be for occasional
driving. Suggestions?
Howard
First, I expect you might have a hard time controlling your speed on that 5
mile long downhill stretch without an ICE engine to supply engine braking.
The brakes wouldn't help much - they'd vaporize in the first mile.
My car's (Echo) terminal velocity at a 10 degree slope would be about 170
MPH, based on its weight, tire rolling resistance, and air drag. Of course,
the tires would blow up well before I reached that speed.
My next comment would be that, with 20 GC batteries ( each good for about
2.5 HP max to the wheels) you would have at most 50 HP available. If your
vehicle's total weight is 4000 lb, the fastest you could travel up a 10
degree slope would be about 22 MPH. And, it would almost certainly overheat
your motor to do that for the 15 minutes or so it would take to climb that
mountain on your way home.
You're in a tough location for an EV.
Phil
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Water heaters
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:29:55 -0800 (PST)
Blocking all airflow seems an extreme test. How did they fare with
convective flow?
The reason I asked about what happens with no air flow is that some car
heater systems ( including mine) are set up so that if the temp control is
on "cold" , all airflow is blocked to the heater element. (flaps close off
on both the inlet and outlet to the heater chamber),
With the original coolant heater, the max temp of the coolant is limited by
the radiator pressure cap to the mid- to high- 200's Farenheit. There is no
similar temp limit with an electric powered heater.
Phil
It sounds like the voltage should be dropped to like 120v? What would be
the best way to do this?
Thanks,
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:32:20 AM
Subject: Re: Water heaters
>> Hot enough to melt plastic air ducts and start fires!
canev wrote:
> Have you had this experience?
I've melted down a couple inexpensive ceramic heaters in testing them at
their limits. But I haven't had any of Randy Holmquist's elements or
heaters to test.
The inexpensive ones were in $20-$40 heaters. I found that the plastic
frame used to hold the ceramic element, the fan blades, and other
related parts were NOT able to withstand the peak temperature that the
heater could produce. They melted! But, they had thermal fuses and
cutouts that (in theory) prevented them from getting this hot.
In anticipation of using one in my EV, I tried blocking all airflow and
running it on 132vdc (my pack voltage at the time). Going by memory, it
got up to about 250 deg.F where it melted its plastic support.
The ceramic element's current does indeed fall as it gets hotter. When
completely blocked, it fell from a peak of 9 amps to under 0.5 amps at
120vac and nearly 300 deg.F.
Another thing to watch out for is the effect of higher voltage. At these
very high temperatures, a small increase in voltage caused a large
increase in current. When I tried 132vdc, the current went up to 1 amp
and got even hotter, but my thermometer didn't go past 300 deg.F.
> I had a fleet customer with a Nissan pick up a few years (12 years)
> ago that had a defective heater relay... It had done no damage to
> any of the duct or the element...
It is good to hear that he had a safe outcome. It may have been due to a
superior heater design, or just plain luck.
All I'm saying is that the cheap ceramic elements I tested were *easily*
capable of getting hot enough to melt all the plastic in their mounting,
and the ductwork in your car.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
5 miles at 10% is that like 2600 feet in elevation?
Don
In a message dated 11/15/2006 8:04:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>From: howard maroz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Batteries
>Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:06:51 -0800 (PST)
>
>My daily commute is 20 miles each way with a 5 mile 10 degree uphill leg on
>the return. I can recharge the batteries prior to the return leg for 6
>hours, 115v @ 20 amps. It has been recommended to use 20 US Battery 200
>ahr golf cart batteries but I am concerned about the return trip which is
>mostly uphill, gradual grades with the exception of the big one mentioned.
> My battery budget is $10K. The 75 mile range would be for occasional
>driving. Suggestions?
>
> Howard
>
>
First, I expect you might have a hard time controlling your speed on that 5
mile long downhill stretch without an ICE engine to supply engine braking.
The brakes wouldn't help much - they'd vaporize in the first mile.
My car's (Echo) terminal velocity at a 10 degree slope would be about 170
MPH, based on its weight, tire rolling resistance, and air drag. Of course,
the tires would blow up well before I reached that speed.
My next comment would be that, with 20 GC batteries ( each good for about
2.5 HP max to the wheels) you would have at most 50 HP available. If your
vehicle's total weight is 4000 lb, the fastest you could travel up a 10
degree slope would be about 22 MPH. And, it would almost certainly overheat
your motor to do that for the 15 minutes or so it would take to climb that
mountain on your way home.
You're in a tough location for an EV.
Phil
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--- Begin Message ---
The electrolyte is where the charge is held. In the case of a Pb-acid
battery this would be sulfuric acid, with hydrogen ions providing the source
of positive ions. Unfortunately nothing is for free, so eventually a
battery basically kills itself as precipitates form resulting in either a
short between the dis-similar metal electrodes or the electrodes erode
away. The distance between plates affects the rate at which ions can
diffuse. A course in electro-chemistry, or an analytical chemist can
provide greater details.
On 11/15/06, GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am curious about something.
What actually holds the charge in a battery?
Is it a chemical transformation ie a chemical in the electrolyte that
changes composition to a different actual compound during charged and
discharged state or is the elctrolyte never changing chemical
composition but simply storain hydrogen oins and releasing them or is it
more a capacitor effect of the plates with the electrolyte acting as a
dieelectric ?
And is it a substance suspended in the electrolyte doing the work? Is
the substance actually holding the charge a solid suspended in a a
liquid or gel or is it a liquid itself?
Lastly what effect does the distance between plates have on internal
resistance and is internal resistance the primary limiter of rapid
charging?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--
Victory belongs to the most persevering.
--Napoleon Bonaparte--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have no secrets, so post away!
Bill D.
At 10:22 AM 11/15/2006, you wrote:
We set a new record! (More on that later.)
Bill, can I repost your message on my site?
Mike
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
Electric Motorcycle Listserv
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
No, these are not a flag type of post, they are a very low round pad about 3/8
inch high and 1 inch in diameter with a stud. I was able to clamp the all
positive battery clamps around this pad and using the stud to put downward
pressure on this clamps to give more contact area.
A standard size battery clamp was too high and wide to fit these pad.
I had to replace the battery clamp bolt with a 1/4 inch longer one because I
had to expand the ring with one of those battery expander plyers.
They are a low profile UTL type but is not a flag type.
It was better than have the post remanufacture, where no one here does this. I
could remold post on myself, but I found this much easier. I can install this
battery clamps while they are in the EV. To install auto post, I would have to
remove the hatch back, the battery covers, remove all the batteries with a
lifting crane and have the EV out of commission for about a month or two. I
can install about 6 of these battery clamps a day without any interrupting my
EV usage.
Anyway they all work fine for the last 4.5 years, no shrink back, no
re-tighting, and no corrosion at all.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Harvey<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
Roland,
So it sounds like you removed the flag and bolted these directly to the
stud. Is that correct? Because I have an existing pack with what USB
describes on their site as the UTL. Can I retrofit these 22206 by removing
the UTL posts? Or am I stuck with these posts until they die.
Thanks, Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
> Hello Lee,
>
> The flag type terminals were on my 2 nd battery pack from 1985 to 1991.
> They were the large ones with a 3/8 hole. The post with the hole was
> given to a me which I gave them to a EE friend of my to run his VW bug,
> but they did not last long.
>
> On my Trojan T-145's which are a low profile post, which I should have
> never got, the studs started to pull out at 75 in.lbs.
>
> These post pads are about 1 inch in diameter and only 3/8 inch high. So
> WirthCo send me several samples to try. The 22206 which are all positives
> can be expanded to one inch with out breaking. All the others were too
> high and could not be expanded to 1 inch ID without breaking.
>
> This terminal not only makes contact around the pad, but also contacts the
> top surface of the L pad and can torque to over 100 inch lbs with
> additional downward pressure by using the top stud and washer tool.
>
> These are now running about 5 years with no problem. Think as it as a
> large terminal lug, but is 1 inch in diameter instead of 5/15 in. These
> battery terminals are still as bright today as when they were new.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
>
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > I have used three different type of battery post. The L terminal,
> > the post with a hole in it, and the standard auto post with a stud.
> > In all three, I used a 2/0 size cable lug with a 3/8 hole.
> >
> > The L terminal post had a recommended torque of 90 in.lbs, but would
> > not stand up to the pressure. They would continue to shrink, and the
> > post would keep flattening more until the post developed cracks.
>
> A clarification please, Roland. You were using a ring terminal with a
> 3/8" bolt hole, and 2/0 wire, on all of these terminals?
>
> - The L terminal has no stud; it is just a vertical square tab
> with a 5/16" bolt hole in it. Did you bolt your ring terminal
> to it with a 5/16" bolt, or drill it out for a 3/8" bolt?
>
> - Likewise for the round automotive post with two flat sides an
> a hole through it. That hole is even smaller, 1/4" at the most.
> What size bolt did you use?
>
> - The auto post with a stud has a 5/16" stud, so you have no
> choice here.
>
> I'm trying to figure out why you used a ring terminal with a 3/8" hole
> when none of these battery terminals is built for this size bolt.
>
> One set of batteries I had, back then in 85, had two different size
> studs, a 5/16 for the negative and 3/8 for the positive. So I used a very
> heavy duty plated mil spec. terminal lug which is about 1 inch in diameter
> surface contact.
>
> In general, my own results match yours:
>
> The L terminal is good for ease of use and low cost, but it isn't
> particularly good for high currents (anything over 200 amps continuous).
> There's no point in using 2/0 cable with an L terminal, because the
> terminal is your weak point.
>
> The automotive post with two flats and a hole drilled in it is a Mickey
> Mouse setup that works equally bad at everything. I wouldn't even use it
> at 100 amps.
>
> The terminals with a 5/16" stud are intended for low current loads, like
> 75 amp golf carts. You should never use it for high currents; it will
> quickly fail and give you lots of trouble.
>
> The old automotive post is the best high-current connector. They hold up
> to at least 300 amps continuous, and survive peaks over 1000 amps. But
> for it to work, you need a good terminal. Not the cheap cast lead ones,
> or made out of bent sheet metal! I like the solid copper ones, though
> brass is also good.
>
> Both copper and brass need to be completely covered, or they will
> corrode. I prefer lead-dipped, but tin or gold also work. Note that the
> gold plating on terminals is usually cosmetic only; the gold is too thin
> to have any real effect on corrosion.
>
> > To solve this problem, I ordered ring type battery connectors from
> > Wirthco.com. These are like the marine type but is forged brass,
> > with a removable bolt that is gold plated... part #22205
>
> Do you mean
>
>
http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401%3Chttp://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401>>
>
> This is a showy cheap terminal, of the temporary repair type; not one
> built for good performance.
>
> I'd suggest #22120 instead, and then lead-dip it after the wire is
> installed. Notice the thicker cross section, larger contact area, two
> bolts instead of one, etc.
>
>
http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399%3Chttp://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399>>
>
> These did not work, because these T-145 pads are 1 inch in diameter and
> would not set all the down against the pad L bar. Need the thinner one
> which fit just right.
>
> Trojan offer to install the auto post on them, but It would cost me about
> $1000.00 to ship them back to them and back to me. So I will make do,
> with these until I get new batteries, which may not be the lead type.
>
> Roland
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod,
Indeed if you charge at home and need the heat, then you
can either use the electricity in the house or if it's
more than you need, you can recharge from it.
In fact, I have recently been scouting for co-generation
units, as I am structurally over the 130% baseline that
my electricity company PG&E uses as a threshold and which
is charged at the base rate, above which they charge way
more per kWh.
I used to be around 80-90% but now I am around 160% and
that 30% over the 130% limit costs almost as much as
what I used to pay.
Anyway, I only found 20 kW units that generate enough for
a school or a small hospital or so. The 1 kW unit sounds
interesting - it can either make hot water or heat the
house a little constantly while cranking out 24 kWh a day,
about 700 kWh per month if we need all the heat - otherwise
it better shut off at times.
With the meter either slightly negative (I use about 600
kWh per month with every night charging) or much lower if
the unit switches off half the time when we don't need
more heat, we shoudl be paying MUCH less for the
electricity - with the E9B rate it's now $60 to $65 per
month, so we are still close to the 10c per kWh due to the
vast majority of the use being in the cheap night rate at
5c, so the 30% over base rate makes the large dent to bump
it up to an average 10c again.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 5:15 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: micro-CHP another way to charge?
I never heard of these until now.
Thought it might be another efficient way to charge
the EV (if the utilities won't buy back the power it
goes into your EV)
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1114/p01s02-usec.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:47 PM
Subject: RE: EVLN(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)
> All the body panels were an exact copy cat.
> Even to the point that they copied the typical
> Smart half-moon door handles, although their
> basis underneath did have regular rectangle
> handles, which they cut out in the Smart panels.
> Several other details from their basis differed,
> like wipers and such, see the archives for the
> full list that I posted some time ago.
> Hi EVerybody:
Why are the Chinese wasting their time with this!!!!!!?????? They have
some EV-1's! Lets have a knockoff here!I'm sure they could reverse engineer
one? They copy ships, subs, planes even 1918 Steam Loco designs, they made a
copy 2-8-2 Mikado, til about 10 years ago. How many would you like, if you
are starting up a commuter rail service?It was, I'm sure a "Face" thing that
they are getting rid of Steam power, with Rail Fans coming to China to see
the old steam trains. You tube has a bunch of China Rail clips, you can go
crazy.Check it out in You Tube after ya watch Bills bike! They sure have
alota nice trim electric lokies, flying by with about 20 car pass trains.
But to get back to the point; They COULD copy a EV-1I don't think GM could
patent the body style?Or anything else? Seems they are wasting their talent
with the damn NEV crap?We don't NEED any slow gloryfied Golf Carts. we need
EV-1's and Zombies<g>!
My two steamers worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
