EV Digest 6140
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Changing Output Voltage on Zivan NG3 Battery Chargers
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Batteries
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Changing Output Voltage on Zivan NG3 Battery Chargers
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Changing Output Voltage on Zivan NG3 Battery Chargers
by "paul compton \(RRes-Roth\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Water heaters
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lead acid terminal types
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EBEAA Meeting - next Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 10-12 in Alameda
by Ed Thorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Batteries - now: speed down a hill
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Batteries
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lead acid terminal types
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Batteries - now slope of a hill
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) motor and primary reduction drag-
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Batteries - now slope of a hill
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas - THE VIDEO
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) large NIMH available?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Water heaters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EVLN(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Lead acid terminal types
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have a schematic diagram of the circuit used in the Zivan NG3
battery chargers?
I would be interested in learning how they work. $80 to change a
resistor...
_________________________________________________________________________
Ben wrote:
> typical method is to send it back to Greg in California to be modified for
> change in voltage.
> $40 shipping and $40 for Greg to change the resistor.
> you may be able to do it yourself, but I don't know where to direct you.
> let me know how you fare. In case I ever change voltage I'd like to know.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"My car's (Echo) terminal velocity at a 10 degree slope would be about
170 MPH"
How did you figure this number out? I only ask because a skydiver in a
standing freefall gets to 160-180mph, seems a little high.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm going to have to second this. GEM's used Zivan chargers for a while. The
original factory charge curves programmed in to them were not aggressive enough
to fully recharge the batteries. In response to this Elcon (www.zivanusa.com
btw) figured out the proper charge profile and started reprograming the
chargers for a nominal fee.
In the field you seem to be able to get about an extra year out of the packs
when they were properly charged, so the reprogram seems to have been paying
for itself. In particular I put a no-name gel pack in one where the owner was
getting about a years life out of a flooded pack (they were abused pretty
badly), so far about two years later he says they're still goin good. Basically
any time I go to work on one that doesn't have the Elcon sticker on the charger
indicating it's been updated I highly recommend it to the owner.
I hope this isn't an issue with the NG3's, but on the NG1's, which GEM's have,
the line input fuse holder has a known melt down issue. The fix is to remove
the holder and solder in a fuse to eliminate the resistance. I did my own and
it's been good so far, but they can do this as well at Elcon. I'm sure they'll
advise if there is any issue with them.
Later,
Ricky
Original Message:
Bruce,
typical method is to send it back to Greg in California to be modified
for
change in voltage.
$40 shipping and $40 for Greg to change the resistor.
you may be able to do it yourself, but I don't know where to direct
you.
let me know how you fare. In case I ever change voltage I'd like to
know.
I changed from 192 Volts and Nicad setting to 156 volts and lead acid
setting, so it only made sense to send it back to California
(especially
since the chager had been sitting on a friend's shelf for 4 year, so
having
Greg test it was a good feeling.
Ben
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - $150,000 loan for $579 a month.
Intro-*Terms
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch! What's the name of the mountain you live on.
Well, that is going to be tough. To be honest, I don't think you can do
it with your budget.
If you used Lead-Acid batteries, then you will need about 75-100 kw to
make itup the hill at a reasonable speed (40-50mph), maybe 50kw to do it
slowly(30mph).
At 30 mph, it will take 10 minutes to climb the hill and use almost the
whole charge just to climb the hill.
So lead-acid is out.
NiCads are out to, the only ones that might be suitable (Saft) can't
handle the power requirements for that hill. They don't have the
continuous power density needed for this hill. Well maybe, if you could
figure out how to load 50ea STM5-100's on the car. But at over $600 ea,
this many is way over your budget anyway.
NiMH is out too, since you basically can't buy EV size ones. The patent
is owned by Chevron/Texaco and (what a surprise) they won't let anyone
build EV size batteries.
That pretty much leaves LiIon/LiPol and they are WAY out of your price range.
Sorry, but I don't see an electric vehicle in your imediate future.
Perhaps a plug in Hybrid?
> My daily commute is 20 miles each way with a 5 mile 10 degree uphill leg
> on the return. I can recharge the batteries prior to the return leg for 6
> hours, 115v @ 20 amps. It has been recommended to use 20 US Battery 200
> ahr golf cart batteries but I am concerned about the return trip which is
> mostly uphill, gradual grades with the exception of the big one
> mentioned. My battery budget is $10K. The 75 mile range would be for
> occasional driving. Suggestions?
>
> Howard
>
>
> Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, the first question is, why do you need 75 miles range? Is this
> your
> daily commute or just the maximum distance you want to go on the rare
> occasion?
>
> Second important question; how deep are your pockets? LiIOn could do that
> easily, but it might be cheaper to buy a Porsche.
>
>> I am new to this list and I'm sure this question has been asked many
>> times
>> in the past. I am building a Wombat Kitcar on a VW Beetle chassis and I
>> initially thought I could get a reliable 75 mi range at 55 mph using
>> golf
>> cart batteries. After much research it does not look like I will achieve
>> this range using lead acid batteries of any kind. I need some help in
>> learning what options are available to give me this range. Any
>> suggestions are appreciated.
>>
>> Howard
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Sponsored Link
>>
>> Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Mortgage for $1,698/mo -
>> Calculate new house payment
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sponsored Link
>
> $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/month - Think You Pay Too Much For Your
> Mortgage? Find Out!
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Does anyone have a schematic diagram of the circuit used in the Zivan
NG3
> battery chargers?
> I would be interested in learning how they work. $80 to change a
> resistor...
That would be to change the resistor, set up the charger correctly and
test it.
I reverse engineered the NG series control board some time ago. It's a
strange beast and they seem to have gone out of their way to make it
inflexible despite having an ST6 microcontroller. I don't have the
diagram in an easily read format (unless you have Protel), but some
people did convert it to pdf. There used to be a copy on the Sparrow
group (not sure how up to date) and I sent Otmar a version.
Paul Compton
www.evguru.co.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.bvs.org.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
Rothamsted Research is a company limited by guarantee, registered in
England under the registration number 2393175 and a not for profit
charity number 802038.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It would seem a more likely failure that the blower stops working while the
unit is on heat mode. Would convective cooling then prevent meltdown.
----- Original Message ----
From: Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:08:25 PM
Subject: Re: Water heaters
>From: Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Water heaters
>Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:29:55 -0800 (PST)
>
>Blocking all airflow seems an extreme test. How did they fare with
>convective flow?
The reason I asked about what happens with no air flow is that some car
heater systems ( including mine) are set up so that if the temp control is
on "cold" , all airflow is blocked to the heater element. (flaps close off
on both the inlet and outlet to the heater chamber),
With the original coolant heater, the max temp of the coolant is limited by
the radiator pressure cap to the mid- to high- 200's Farenheit. There is no
similar temp limit with an electric powered heater.
Phil
>It sounds like the voltage should be dropped to like 120v? What would be
>the best way to do this?
>Thanks,
>storm
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:32:20 AM
>Subject: Re: Water heaters
>
> >> Hot enough to melt plastic air ducts and start fires!
>
>canev wrote:
> > Have you had this experience?
>
>I've melted down a couple inexpensive ceramic heaters in testing them at
>their limits. But I haven't had any of Randy Holmquist's elements or
>heaters to test.
>
>The inexpensive ones were in $20-$40 heaters. I found that the plastic
>frame used to hold the ceramic element, the fan blades, and other
>related parts were NOT able to withstand the peak temperature that the
>heater could produce. They melted! But, they had thermal fuses and
>cutouts that (in theory) prevented them from getting this hot.
>
>In anticipation of using one in my EV, I tried blocking all airflow and
>running it on 132vdc (my pack voltage at the time). Going by memory, it
>got up to about 250 deg.F where it melted its plastic support.
>
>The ceramic element's current does indeed fall as it gets hotter. When
>completely blocked, it fell from a peak of 9 amps to under 0.5 amps at
>120vac and nearly 300 deg.F.
>
>Another thing to watch out for is the effect of higher voltage. At these
>very high temperatures, a small increase in voltage caused a large
>increase in current. When I tried 132vdc, the current went up to 1 amp
>and got even hotter, but my thermometer didn't go past 300 deg.F.
>
> > I had a fleet customer with a Nissan pick up a few years (12 years)
> > ago that had a defective heater relay... It had done no damage to
> > any of the duct or the element...
>
>It is good to hear that he had a safe outcome. It may have been due to a
>superior heater design, or just plain luck.
>
>All I'm saying is that the cheap ceramic elements I tested were *easily*
>capable of getting hot enough to melt all the plastic in their mounting,
>and the ductwork in your car.
>--
>Ring the bells that still can ring
>Forget the perfect offering
>There is a crack in everything
>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>--
>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://get.live.com/messenger/overview
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Roland,
Thanks much. I really do appreciate the help. These posts are giving me the
willies. As I have the UTL posts now, it sounds like the mod you did would
work for me. Im just unclear about what happens to the the existing post. Do
I cut that off which just leaves the pad (3/8" by 1" as you described sounds
about right). Anyway I could get a pic of what yours look like now so I can
visualize?
Thanks again for the info.
Regards, Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
Hello Mike,
No, these are not a flag type of post, they are a very low round pad about
3/8 inch high and 1 inch in diameter with a stud. I was able to clamp
the all positive battery clamps around this pad and using the stud to put
downward pressure on this clamps to give more contact area.
A standard size battery clamp was too high and wide to fit these pad.
I had to replace the battery clamp bolt with a 1/4 inch longer one because
I had to expand the ring with one of those battery expander plyers.
They are a low profile UTL type but is not a flag type.
It was better than have the post remanufacture, where no one here does
this. I could remold post on myself, but I found this much easier. I can
install this battery clamps while they are in the EV. To install auto
post, I would have to remove the hatch back, the battery covers, remove
all the batteries with a lifting crane and have the EV out of commission
for about a month or two. I can install about 6 of these battery clamps a
day without any interrupting my EV usage.
Anyway they all work fine for the last 4.5 years, no shrink back, no
re-tighting, and no corrosion at all.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Harvey<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
Roland,
So it sounds like you removed the flag and bolted these directly to the
stud. Is that correct? Because I have an existing pack with what USB
describes on their site as the UTL. Can I retrofit these 22206 by
removing
the UTL posts? Or am I stuck with these posts until they die.
Thanks, Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
> Hello Lee,
>
> The flag type terminals were on my 2 nd battery pack from 1985 to 1991.
> They were the large ones with a 3/8 hole. The post with the hole was
> given to a me which I gave them to a EE friend of my to run his VW
bug,
> but they did not last long.
>
> On my Trojan T-145's which are a low profile post, which I should have
> never got, the studs started to pull out at 75 in.lbs.
>
> These post pads are about 1 inch in diameter and only 3/8 inch high. So
> WirthCo send me several samples to try. The 22206 which are all
positives
> can be expanded to one inch with out breaking. All the others were too
> high and could not be expanded to 1 inch ID without breaking.
>
> This terminal not only makes contact around the pad, but also contacts
the
> top surface of the L pad and can torque to over 100 inch lbs with
> additional downward pressure by using the top stud and washer tool.
>
> These are now running about 5 years with no problem. Think as it as a
> large terminal lug, but is 1 inch in diameter instead of 5/15 in.
These
> battery terminals are still as bright today as when they were new.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee
Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To:
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
>
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > I have used three different type of battery post. The L terminal,
> > the post with a hole in it, and the standard auto post with a stud.
> > In all three, I used a 2/0 size cable lug with a 3/8 hole.
> >
> > The L terminal post had a recommended torque of 90 in.lbs, but would
> > not stand up to the pressure. They would continue to shrink, and the
> > post would keep flattening more until the post developed cracks.
>
> A clarification please, Roland. You were using a ring terminal with a
> 3/8" bolt hole, and 2/0 wire, on all of these terminals?
>
> - The L terminal has no stud; it is just a vertical square tab
> with a 5/16" bolt hole in it. Did you bolt your ring terminal
> to it with a 5/16" bolt, or drill it out for a 3/8" bolt?
>
> - Likewise for the round automotive post with two flat sides an
> a hole through it. That hole is even smaller, 1/4" at the most.
> What size bolt did you use?
>
> - The auto post with a stud has a 5/16" stud, so you have no
> choice here.
>
> I'm trying to figure out why you used a ring terminal with a 3/8" hole
> when none of these battery terminals is built for this size bolt.
>
> One set of batteries I had, back then in 85, had two different size
> studs, a 5/16 for the negative and 3/8 for the positive. So I used a
very
> heavy duty plated mil spec. terminal lug which is about 1 inch in
diameter
> surface contact.
>
> In general, my own results match yours:
>
> The L terminal is good for ease of use and low cost, but it isn't
> particularly good for high currents (anything over 200 amps
continuous).
> There's no point in using 2/0 cable with an L terminal, because the
> terminal is your weak point.
>
> The automotive post with two flats and a hole drilled in it is a
Mickey
> Mouse setup that works equally bad at everything. I wouldn't even use
it
> at 100 amps.
>
> The terminals with a 5/16" stud are intended for low current loads,
like
> 75 amp golf carts. You should never use it for high currents; it will
> quickly fail and give you lots of trouble.
>
> The old automotive post is the best high-current connector. They hold
up
> to at least 300 amps continuous, and survive peaks over 1000 amps. But
> for it to work, you need a good terminal. Not the cheap cast lead
ones,
> or made out of bent sheet metal! I like the solid copper ones, though
> brass is also good.
>
> Both copper and brass need to be completely covered, or they will
> corrode. I prefer lead-dipped, but tin or gold also work. Note that
the
> gold plating on terminals is usually cosmetic only; the gold is too
thin
> to have any real effect on corrosion.
>
> > To solve this problem, I ordered ring type battery connectors from
> > Wirthco.com. These are like the marine type but is forged brass,
> > with a removable bolt that is gold plated... part #22205
>
> Do you mean
>
>
http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401%3Chttp://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401>>
>
> This is a showy cheap terminal, of the temporary repair type; not one
> built for good performance.
>
> I'd suggest #22120 instead, and then lead-dip it after the wire is
> installed. Notice the thicker cross section, larger contact area, two
> bolts instead of one, etc.
>
>
http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399%3Chttp://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399>>
>
> These did not work, because these T-145 pads are 1 inch in diameter
and
> would not set all the down against the pad L bar. Need the thinner one
> which fit just right.
>
> Trojan offer to install the auto post on them, but It would cost me
about
> $1000.00 to ship them back to them and back to me. So I will make do,
> with these until I get new batteries, which may not be the lead type.
>
> Roland
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reminder -
East Bay EAA meeting this Saturday (on 3rd Saturday
rather than usual 4th Saturday due to Thanksgiving
holiday). No meeting in December, so this is our last
meeting of the year.
-Ed Thorpe
EBEAA Secretary & webmaster
www.ebeaa.org
> *********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
> Topic: EVs for Dummies: The Electrathon
> Date: Saturday, Nov, 18, 2006
> Time: 10 am to 12 noon.
> Site: Alameda First Baptist Church
> 1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
> Visitors welcome, open to the public.
>
> This will be our last Chapter meeting of 2006.
> Besides
> holding our usual election / selection of Chapter
> leadership for 2007, we also have a special
> presentation by Chapter member Bob Cooley on new
> efforts in the East Bay to introduce Electrathons.
>
> Bob has been instrumental in getting a couple of
> local
> High Schools started with this great hands-on
> educational and sports activity. Electrathons have
> been around for many years. It is a type electric
> marathon race of High School age students, in which
> the winner is determined by how far you go in a
> certain time with a given amount of battery power.
> In
> addition to creating races and competitions between
> schools, each school creates a class for students to
> be involved with the building, testing and
> refinement
> of these vehicles.
>
> Come see what an Electrathon is all about and how we
> can support efforts to educating our students
> through
> this medium.. Also other EVs will be on-hand and
> informal Q&A can take place in the parking lot.
>
> See you there.
>
> http://www.ebeaa.org
>
> *********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:37:56 -0800
"My car's (Echo) terminal velocity at a 10 degree slope would be about
170 MPH"
How did you figure this number out? I only ask because a skydiver in a
standing freefall gets to 160-180mph, seems a little high.
Hi, Jeff
Here's the numbers: ( I was estimating last night - now I'll do the
calculations more carefully)
My car weighs 2900 lbs, so the thrust due to a 10 degree grade is 2900 *
tangent (10 degrees) = 511 lbs. This force is constant.
The tire drag ( and brake drag) is 29 lbs. This force is constant (
independent of speed)
This is calculated as : tire drag = 0,085 ( published data for my tires -
NRT2's ) * 2900 = 24 lbs
I guessed at a brake/bearing drag of 5 lbs.
So, the car will reach terminal velocity when the air drag plus the
tire/brake drag equals the thrust due to the slope.: Air drag = 511-29 =
483 lbs.
The Echo has a frontal area of 20 ft^2 (my rough measurement) and a Cd of
0.29 ( published).
Air drag (force) = 0.5 * air density * Cd * frontal area * speed squared.
Putting in the numbers:
Air drag force = 0.5 * 0.078 lbm/ft^2 * (1/32.2 lbf/lbm - ft/s^2) * 0.29 *
20 ft^2 * V ^2)
Where - V in is ft/sec. (The 1/32.2 term is a units conversion from
force units to mass units for the air density.
Simplifying : Air drag force (lbs) = 0.00702 * V^2 ( where V is in ft/s)
Converting units to MPH: Air drag force ( lbs) = 0.0151 * V^2 (
V in MPH)
Solving this ( setting the air drag force to 483 lbs) results in a speed of
179 MPH. This is a little higher than my earlier estimate.
As to your question : sky divers generally have a very poor Cd. ( and often
wear very loose jump suits with lots of extra fabric to make it even
higher). And, they generally have more frontal area per pound of weight
than a car. Plus, there would be a lot of surface drag if you slid one
down a 10 degree road.
Phil
By the way, a 10 degree road is VERY steep. Maybe he meant 10% grade. That
would only be about 6 degrees.
_________________________________________________________________
Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://get.live.com/messenger/overview
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, it would. But he said 10 degrees, not 10%, so that would be 4600 feet
in elevation.
Maybe he meant to say 10%. 10 degress is really steep.
Phil
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:09:22 EST
5 miles at 10% is that like 2600 feet in elevation?
Don
>From: howard maroz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Batteries
>Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:06:51 -0800 (PST)
>
>My daily commute is 20 miles each way with a 5 mile 10 degree uphill leg
on
>the return. I can recharge the batteries prior to the return leg for 6
>hours, 115v @ 20 amps. It has been recommended to use 20 US Battery 200
>ahr golf cart batteries but I am concerned about the return trip which
is
>mostly uphill, gradual grades with the exception of the big one
mentioned.
> My battery budget is $10K. The 75 mile range would be for occasional
>driving. Suggestions?
>
> Howard
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from
Microsoft Office Live
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Harvey<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
Hey Roland,
Thanks much. I really do appreciate the help. These posts are giving me the
willies. As I have the UTL posts now, it sounds like the mod you did would
work for me. Im just unclear about what happens to the the existing post. Do
I cut that off which just leaves the pad (3/8" by 1" as you described sounds
about right). Anyway I could get a pic of what yours look like now so I can
visualize?
Thanks again for the info.
Regards, Mike
Hello Mike,
Look at the US Battery Terminal WEB site, and you will see what at UTL
battery terminal looks like. There is two types, either a low profile pad
that is about 1 inch in diameter and 3/8 inch high with a stud and a higher
large diameter with a stud.
These are not the L post type.
If you have the large L post, I bolt your terminal lugs right to these L
post. If you have the hole through a negative and positive post, then use the
positive & negative pair battery clamp by making up new cables with plated
brass units. You can get these from EV Parts or KTA.
To bolt a all positive battery clamp around the 1 inch diameter UTL pad
which is only 3/8 inch high, you also have to provide some down pressure to
prevent them from popping off. This requires using the stud to do this. If you
do not have a stud, then you cannot use this of clamp around a pad.
On my UTL low profile with stud, I cannot use a standard size battery clamp,
the only thing that work for me was using the all positive type #22206 that
clamp around the pad which use grooves in the ring, plus using the stud to
provide downward pressure.
If you go to the wirthco . com site, you will see a picture on how a lug type
battery cable connects to these battery clamps.
The UTL post pads with stud on my Trojan batteries are mounted on a offset
lead bar that is about 2 inches long that is welded to the battery post, so
this pad is off the surface of the by about 3/4 inch, so there was enough
clearance to use this type of clamp.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
10 Degrees, that nothing.
The road I went to work every day rose 600 feet per mile which is about 15
degrees. To get up this hill, I had a down hill run first, that I can get up
to 80 mph, so I can roller coast up this hill which I was still doing 35 mph at
the exit.
Coming down this hill, the EV would get up to 80-90 mph for about 2 miles and
than I had a run out for another 3 miles roller coasting smaller hills and go
right into my garage after a five mile run without any additional power.
Going to the Sun road, you rise about 8000 feet in 10 miles. I can coast down
this hill for about 13 miles with out any additional power using my ICE.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: Batteries
Ouch! What's the name of the mountain you live on.
Well, that is going to be tough. To be honest, I don't think you can do
it with your budget.
If you used Lead-Acid batteries, then you will need about 75-100 kw to
make itup the hill at a reasonable speed (40-50mph), maybe 50kw to do it
slowly(30mph).
At 30 mph, it will take 10 minutes to climb the hill and use almost the
whole charge just to climb the hill.
So lead-acid is out.
NiCads are out to, the only ones that might be suitable (Saft) can't
handle the power requirements for that hill. They don't have the
continuous power density needed for this hill. Well maybe, if you could
figure out how to load 50ea STM5-100's on the car. But at over $600 ea,
this many is way over your budget anyway.
NiMH is out too, since you basically can't buy EV size ones. The patent
is owned by Chevron/Texaco and (what a surprise) they won't let anyone
build EV size batteries.
That pretty much leaves LiIon/LiPol and they are WAY out of your price range.
Sorry, but I don't see an electric vehicle in your imediate future.
Perhaps a plug in Hybrid?
> My daily commute is 20 miles each way with a 5 mile 10 degree uphill leg
> on the return. I can recharge the batteries prior to the return leg for 6
> hours, 115v @ 20 amps. It has been recommended to use 20 US Battery 200
> ahr golf cart batteries but I am concerned about the return trip which is
> mostly uphill, gradual grades with the exception of the big one
> mentioned. My battery budget is $10K. The 75 mile range would be for
> occasional driving. Suggestions?
>
> Howard
>
>
> Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> Well, the first question is, why do you need 75 miles range? Is this
> your
> daily commute or just the maximum distance you want to go on the rare
> occasion?
>
> Second important question; how deep are your pockets? LiIOn could do that
> easily, but it might be cheaper to buy a Porsche.
>
>> I am new to this list and I'm sure this question has been asked many
>> times
>> in the past. I am building a Wombat Kitcar on a VW Beetle chassis and I
>> initially thought I could get a reliable 75 mi range at 55 mph using
>> golf
>> cart batteries. After much research it does not look like I will achieve
>> this range using lead acid batteries of any kind. I need some help in
>> learning what options are available to give me this range. Any
>> suggestions are appreciated.
>>
>> Howard
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Sponsored Link
>>
>> Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Mortgage for $1,698/mo -
>> Calculate new house payment
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sponsored Link
>
> $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/month - Think You Pay Too Much For Your
> Mortgage? Find Out!
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:56:56 -0700
10 Degrees, that nothing.
The road I went to work every day rose 600 feet per mile which is about 15
degrees.
Roland,
600 feet per mile is 6.5 degrees, not 15 degrees.
Here's how to calculate this:
Angle = arc tangent ( 600 feet/5280 feet) = arctan (0.114) = 6.48 degrees.
The grade of the same slope (in per cent) would be 600/5280 * 100 = 11.3% (
This means that for every 100 feet of horizontal travel, you go up 11.3
feet)
15 degrees would be 1415 feet of rise per horizontal mile ( or, 27% slope)
. That WOULD be pretty steep.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered
by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 10 Degrees, that nothing.
>
> The road I went to work every day rose 600 feet per mile which is about 15
> degrees.
No it's not. 600 ft per mile is only about 6.5 degrees or a little over
11 percent. That's pretty steep, but nowhere near as steep as a 10 degree
slope.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
wondered if anyone has played with magnetic particle clutches- belts are
such a drag,(for milage), chains are so noisey, freewheel coasting extends
range, will a direct coupled, pulsed, magnetic particle clutch work as a torque
multiplier / cvt? I understand of course that larger vehicles incorporate
standard transmissions, I was thinking about something on a smaller scale-
thanx.
frank walker.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree that a rise of 15 feet per 100 is 15%. The average would be 6.5
degrees, but there is one section that for .9 of a mile that is twice as steep
as that.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Marino<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: Batteries - now slope of a hill
>From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
>Subject: Re: Batteries
>Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:56:56 -0700
>
>10 Degrees, that nothing.
>
>The road I went to work every day rose 600 feet per mile which is about 15
>degrees.
Roland,
600 feet per mile is 6.5 degrees, not 15 degrees.
Here's how to calculate this:
Angle = arc tangent ( 600 feet/5280 feet) = arctan (0.114) = 6.48 degrees.
The grade of the same slope (in per cent) would be 600/5280 * 100 = 11.3% (
This means that for every 100 feet of horizontal travel, you go up 11.3
feet)
15 degrees would be 1415 feet of rise per horizontal mile ( or, 27% slope)
. That WOULD be pretty steep.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered
by Pandora
http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001<http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yahh... I've watched the video a half dozen times.
I SECOND the question... "What are all the SPARKS.. at the end of the
Run ????"
?
Could it be that at 145 mph as the track goes UP-Hill... Some metal
part of the bike scraped the ground HARD..
Or maybe it is a bit of show-man-ship.... an intentional sparks - n -
fire as the bike crosses the line.. That would be cool too..
But Seriously... What Was It..???
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just looking for some E-bike batteries and in searching turned up these:
http://www.eurobatteries.com/sitepages/description1.asp?id=1243&cat=NIMH
80AH Nimh cells! The data sheet is for the wrong model but it
mentions the manufacturer (Chinese of course!):
http://www.peacebay.com/en/product_view.asp - which lists cells up to
200AH.
I don't know if these are actually any use or good value, but thought
I'd pass it on as I haven't seen a mention of actual, buyable EV-size
NiMH for a while.
Actually, perhaps I shouldn't have posted this here, someone will
probably run off to tell Texaco-Chevron about those bad Chinese patent
infringers again..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
Blocking all airflow seems an extreme test.
It is; but it can happen in the real world. What if there's an ice storm
and the air intake is completely iced shut? What if fall leaves get
sucked into the air intake, and completely block it? What if a mouse
builds a nest (of nice combustible materials) in your air duct, right on
top of the heater?
How did they fare with convective flow?
The more air, the cooler they run.
It sounds like the voltage should be dropped to like 120v?
I'm sure that at a low enough voltage, the ceramic element's temperature
should not get hot enough even worst case to melt the plastics or start
a fire. However, I don't know what that voltage is. Maybe 120v is OK;
maybe less. If it's much lower, you won't get useful amounts of heat
under normal conditions.
> What would be the best way to do this?
PWM (on/off switching at some duty cycle) might work. But it might also
be that the ceramic behaves in a nonlinear fashion with respect to
voltage (i.e. a small increase in voltage causes a large increase in
temperature). If that were the case, you'd have to use some method that
literally reduces the voltage -- adding an inductor and capacitor to
your PWM to make it a true buck converter, or wiring the heater elements
in series instead of parallel if the temperature exceeded "X".
In my case, I chose to have a working thermal fuse just in case
something went seriously wrong (like the above scenarios).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
I find it fascinating that it was financially viable to tool up an
entire vehicle production line based on copied plans, when they had to
have known full well that it was likely that the real mfg would kill
them before too long. When you think about it, being able to tool up
and build an entire car as a "bandit" operation is actually pretty
impressive.
Being China, they probably thought they could get away with it. There
are vast numbers of products being copied in China, and sold worldwide
despite all actions by the product's originators.
In this case though, the auto companies are working hard to build
factories and sell their cars *in China*. Daimler/Chrysler probably has
a Chinese partner that is setting up a factory to sell the Smart in
China. This means there are two *Chinese* companies producing the same
product, and fighting over who has the rights to do it. The Chinese
government and courts are much more sympathetic to this situation.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
The flag type terminals were on my 2nd battery pack from 1985 to
1991. They were the large ones with a 3/8 hole.
Aha... now the 3/8" ring terminal makes sense.
The post with the hole... used to run his VW bug... did not last long.
Was this a low-voltage, high-current EV setup? If so, no wonder!
my Trojan T-145's are a low profile post... about 1 inch in diameter
and only 3/8 inch high... WirthCo #22206 which are all positives can
be expanded to one inch without breaking. All the others were too
high and could not be expanded to 1 inch ID without breaking.
This terminal not only makes contact around the pad, but also
contacts the top surface of the L pad and can torque to over 100
inch lbs with additional downward pressure by using the top stud
and washer tool.
OK, that makes sense. It'a a way to make the most of a bad situation.
You essentially have half an automotive post, plus a 5/16" stud terminal
in parallel. Neither by itself would do the job, but both together works.
These battery terminals are still as bright today as when they were new.
That's good. How do you keep the acid off them from your flooded batteries?
Most gold plated stuff only has a few microinches of plating; that's
enough to look good, but is porous and lets corrosives get under it to
corrode the base metal.
Gold itself doesn't corrode; but whatever metal is in contact with it
will corrode instead.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
