EV digest 6144

Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:23:02 -0800 

                            EV Digest 6144

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Patent revocation for public good
        by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) RE: Suspension/Spring Supplier
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Batteries
        by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Suspension/Spring Supplier
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
  5) Re: Patent revocation for public good
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  6) Re: EV digest 6138
        by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
On 17 Nov 2006 at 12:10, Geopilot wrote:

> What do people think about the idea that patent law should be modified 
> so that patents can not only be revoked if issued in error ...

I think the subject is too general for the EV list.  

I think I know what you're trying to do here - it has to do with NiMH 
batteries - and I think it's counterproductive.  It will lead to a thread 
which will be nothing but a gripe session.

Folks, there's nothing we can do to fix the NiMH restrictions. The situation 
is what it is.  Alternatives are emerging even as we speak, and the problem 
will resolve itself.  Unless the restrictions are relaxed, NiMH for EVs will 
simply not be a factor in the EV market, and Cobasys will miss out on the 
revenue from that segment.  That's exactly what they deserve.

We can't have NiMH.  It's regrettable, but let's leave it at that.  Let's 
move on and build outstanding EVs with batteries we >can< get our hands on, 
instead of wringing those hands over batteries that are denied to us by 
foolhardy, short-sighted, backward-looking corporate executives and 
attorneys.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi Martin,

You could first take measurement of your current springs
and go to the local junkyards, often they have heavier
vehicles in the same manufacturing line that have the
same outer dimensions but stiffer spings (thicker steel)
or you can scrounge pickup/SUVs.

Is there a Corolla in the EV Album already modified?
Is there a Corolla fan/tune club? Ask the ones that were
there before how they solved it.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of martin emde
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Suspension/Spring Supplier


Hi,
Does anyone know of a company/supplier for enhanced performance (stiffer)
springs.  I remember seeing a name on the list a few months back.  I'm
converting a 1988 Toyota Corola.  You can email me off list.
Thanks.
Martin

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Here's a chart I made comparing sever different batteries.  Hope you
can find something to your liking.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA

Brandon Kruger

On 11/16/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> 10 Degrees, that nothing.
>
> The road I went to work every day rose 600 feet per mile which is about 15
> degrees.

No it's not.  600 ft per mile is only about 6.5 degrees or a little over
11 percent.  That's pretty steep, but nowhere near as steep as a 10 degree
slope.


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hello Martin:

Coil Spring Specialties, LLC
PO Box G
632 West Bertrand
Saint Marys, KS 66536

Don't have their phone number handy.

If you're looking to support some extra weight, just tell them how much over 
stock and they'll wind them up for you.
Price is reasonable, too and very nice to deal with.

Good luck.

Dana


 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "martin emde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hi,
> Does anyone know of a company/supplier for enhanced performance (stiffer)
> springs.  I remember seeing a name on the list a few months back.  I'm
> converting a 1988 Toyota Corola.  You can email me off list.
> Thanks.
> Martin
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
 
In a message dated 11/17/2006 1:48:21 PM Mountain Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Big  money for 
a  few corporations as well as federal and state  government. Things that are 
bad  for you can be overlooked if the  government gets its share. States that 
did not  allow gambling now  have the government advertising it to keep sales 
up. 

This is not a  political statement just a reality check.  



As Lilli Tomlin once said: "No matter how cynical you are, you can't keep  
up!"  

Matt  Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph  on the flat, 35 mile range

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Couple of SITES to check out for weights and measures:

http://electricmotorcycles.net/modules/wordpress/
http://www.killacycle.com/

Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:

                            EV Digest 6138

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Water heaters
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Lead acid terminal types
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Water heaters
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: go kart ideas and parts sources
        by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas
        by Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Optima & Orbital Dimensions
        by Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 12-3pm Biodiesel Workshop and Alt Fuel Car Show by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  9) Re: Water heaters- and production EV ceramics
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: Water heaters
        by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Water heaters
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: EVLN(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)
        by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
        by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) RE: EVLN(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Lead acid terminal types
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: Parallel packs.
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Video is on YouTube (was: KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas)
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Video is on YouTube (was: KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas)
        by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
        by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
        by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 23) micro-CHP another way to charge?
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) RE: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
From:
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:01:22 -0600
To:
[email protected]


Paul G. wrote:


There are 3 ways to protect from ground path shocks...
For public charging PLEASE use any TWO...
Isolation, chassis grounding, and ground fault circuit protection.



Roger Stockton wrote:


I agree with your summary... but David is correct in emphasizing
isolation... *No* production EV/NEV uses a non-isolated charger,
and many with isolated chargers back that up with GFCI protection.
If OEMs could get away with a cheaper non-isolated charger, they would.
I agree with Paul and Roger on having at least two ways to protect against ground paths. Things go wrong; redundancy is good!
But I will point out that the vast majority of AC powered products are not isolated. Manufacturers (with goading from lawyers, government, the various safety agencies) have worked out methods of construction that insure safety even without isolation transformers.
Safety without isolation is commonly achieved with double insulation. The product is made with no exposed metal, or with all exposed metal grounded. All parts inside (*all* parts!) are mounted and insulated in such a way that it is impossible for the user to touch them whenever these parts might be "live". And, there are two independent insulation systems, either of which is sufficient by itself to protect against shocks.
You'll find this non-isolated double-insulated construction in electric drills, shavers, UPS power supplies, refrigerators, electric stoves, and almost all other consumer products. I think it will inevitably come to EVs too, if they ever achieve sufficient production volume. The relentless drive for "cheap, cheaper, cheapest" will force manufacturers to do it! 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Water heaters
From:
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:02:01 -0600
To:
[email protected]


Cor van de Water wrote:


Another thread talking about transformer oil suddenly made
my brain jump: if the amount of water in the heater system makes the EV heater slow to respond, due to the heat 
capacity of the water, as that needs to be heated up first,
then why not use _oil_ in the heater system?



Hey, that's a neat idea. I like it!


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Lead acid terminal types
From:
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:44:45 -0600
To:
[email protected]


Roland Wiench wrote:


I have used three different type of battery post. The L terminal,
the post with a hole in it, and the standard auto post with a stud.
In all three, I used a 2/0 size cable lug with a 3/8 hole.

The L terminal post had a recommended torque of 90 in.lbs, but would
not stand up to the pressure. They would continue to shrink, and the
post would keep flattening more until the post developed cracks.
A clarification please, Roland. You were using a ring terminal with a 3/8" bolt hole, and 2/0 wire, on all of these terminals? 

 - The L terminal has no stud; it is just a vertical square tab
   with a 5/16" bolt hole in it. Did you bolt your ring terminal
   to it with a 5/16" bolt, or drill it out for a 3/8" bolt?

 - Likewise for the round automotive post with two flat sides an
   a hole through it. That hole is even smaller, 1/4" at the most.
   What size bolt did you use?

 - The auto post with a stud has a 5/16" stud, so you have no
   choice here.
I'm trying to figure out why you used a ring terminal with a 3/8" hole when none of these battery terminals is built for this size bolt. 

In general, my own results match yours:
The L terminal is good for ease of use and low cost, but it isn't particularly good for high currents (anything over 200 amps continuous). There's no point in using 2/0 cable with an L terminal, because the terminal is your weak point.
The automotive post with two flats and a hole drilled in it is a Mickey Mouse setup that works equally bad at everything. I wouldn't even use it at 100 amps.
The terminals with a 5/16" stud are intended for low current loads, like 75 amp golf carts. You should never use it for high currents; it will quickly fail and give you lots of trouble.
The old automotive post is the best high-current connector. They hold up to at least 300 amps continuous, and survive peaks over 1000 amps. But for it to work, you need a good terminal. Not the cheap cast lead ones, or made out of bent sheet metal! I like the solid copper ones, though brass is also good.
Both copper and brass need to be completely covered, or they will corrode. I prefer lead-dipped, but tin or gold also work. Note that the gold plating on terminals is usually cosmetic only; the gold is too thin to have any real effect on corrosion. 


To solve this problem, I ordered ring type battery connectors from
Wirthco.com. These are like the marine type but is forged brass,
with a removable bolt that is gold plated... part #22205
Do you mean http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401
This is a showy cheap terminal, of the temporary repair type; not one built for good performance.
I'd suggest #22120 instead, and then lead-dip it after the wire is installed. Notice the thicker cross section, larger contact area, two bolts instead of one, etc. 
http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Water heaters
From:
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:20:32 -0600
To:
[email protected]


Danny Miller wrote:


I was told a series-wound motor won't work for regen because the
voltage generated will generally be below battery voltage (not
clear on whether this is true).
No; this is not true. A series motor is useful because it does NOT have a clearly-defined voltage versus speed relationship. You can apply a fixed voltage (like a battery pack), and get just about any speed out of it, depending on the load.
But when you try to use it as a series generator, this lack of a speed-voltage relationship is a problem. It's hard to get a predictable voltage at a given speed. So, you pretty much always need a controller to use a series generator.
From an engineering viewpoint, a series motor acts like a resistor. It has a positive resistance proportional to rpm when used as a motor. And, it has a NEGATIVE resistance proportional to rpm when used as a generator.
A positive resistor absorbs power. In this case, it turns this electrical power into mechanical power instead of heat.
A negative resistor GENERATES power; it acts like a power supply. However, it has the awkward characteristic that it does not produce a constant voltage or a constant current; instead, it produces an amount of power defined by the load and Ohm's law. Negative resistors are notoriously difficult to stabilize. 


I'm wondering if routing the power to a hot water heater would be
possible, since a heating element can be set up to operate on a
 lower voltage.
Play with Ohm's law a little where R is negative. You'll find that the volts and amps go up together; if one doubles, the other doubles as well. So, systems that use series motors as generators all boost the voltage, to get the current to also go up, to get sufficient power for adequate braking. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: go kart ideas and parts sources
From:
"Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 21:09:33 +0100
To:
<[email protected]>


i use the tiny PMG, very efficient/strong motor as his big brother BUT tiny
one will smoke fast on a gokart if overloaded.

Be careful not putting more than 70A continuous at 24V !!! or it will die
fast ! using a powerfull fan to cool it at brushes side will give you about
100A continuous but you are on the danger zone here.

have fun

cordialement,
Philippe

Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
 http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: go kart ideas and parts sources




I'm using the 140-01-4005 motor, available from KTA services, evparts, and


other EV dealers.  I'm running a 275 amp curtis with 48 battery volts.
Don't have any experience with PM motors for a go-kart.  David Roden is
using some BLDC motors, I believe.






David Brandt


----- Original Message ----
From: Joe Vitek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 3:01:58 PM
Subject: Re: go kart ideas and parts sources


Thanks to all who responded! This is putting me well on my way to building


a


nice kart test bed.



 I have done this with a 6.6 inch diameter series motor and Curtis 275


amp


control with 48 volts of battery.


SNIP<<


Could probably get by with
smaller electric motor, but 6.6 inchers are common.


Does anyone have an example or a link to a 6.6" motor? I am thinking about


using


the Perm Motor PMG 080 one for high performance (bottom of this link):

http://www.robotmarketplace.com/marketplace_motors_perm.html

It looks like it would be a badass and very light (expensive, though).


Anyone


have any experience with these motors?

--
joe vitek




------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas
From:
Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:22:01 -0500
To:
[email protected]



We set a new record! (More on that later.)



Bill, can I repost your message on my site?

Mike

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Optima & Orbital Dimensions
From:
Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:13:36 -0500
To:
[email protected]


Hello,
I just measured 2 different Optima SC34DA batteries and got the following: 

A= 9 9/16
B= 6 1/16
C= 6 3/4
D= 10
F= 6 3/4
G= 6 13/16
I'm in Watertown, Ma and my EV is currently off the road so if you need to borrow an example optima, one is available... 

            -Jeremy

On Nov 14, 2006, at 6:18 PM, Ben Apollonio wrote:


Hi all!
I'm re-joining the list after a couple years of inactivity (thanks, college!) and with a new email address. I'm now living in Worcester, MA and my car is living in Berlin, MA, where I've been able to make progress once again.
One question that still nags me is how big to make battery boxes. I'm trying to cram 16 Optima YT's or Orbitals into a Porsche 914 with a T-Rex 1000 and a 9" ADC FB-4001. I've seen the pictures of how Otmar built boxes with an 8" ADC, but my fit is a little tighter, so I want to be sure I get it right. Could someone with an Optima and/or Orbital dig out their ruler and calipers and take some measurements for me? To simplify discussion, I've labeled the dimensions I need at http://bapollo.com/battery.jpg
Also, last time I was reading the list, Orbitals were a pretty new thing. Their cost advantage is highly tempting. What has peoples' experience been with regard to range and durability in comparison to the Optima? 

Thanks!
-Ben Apollonio



------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
12-3pm Biodiesel Workshop and Alt Fuel Car Show
From:
"Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:49:29 -0800
To:
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "SFEVA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 



To all bring your alt vehicle (electric, veggie, cng etc.......) Potluck and have 
fun in Golden Gate Park.  This is partly sponsered by a band of musicians that use 
veggie oil to run their bus.  HotButteredRum.net I'll be there with my Soyburban 
& various electric scooters.  Lawrence Rhodes....

SATURDAY COMMUNITY PICNIC:
A short bus/bike-ride, or drive from the venue will bring you to the Pioneer Log Cabin Field in Golden Gate Park. The field is located on the south side of JFK just east of the turnoff to Stow Lake.
12-3pm Biodiesel Workshop and Alt Fuel Car Show - Come see the future of sustainable travel! Or show off your alternative fuel vehicle! Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] to reserve a space.
1pm Acoustic Kids Set with the Overall Experience - This young eager band from Lodi, CA is gaining a reputation for their fun old-timey sound and bold stage presence. Bring a kid!
1:45 pm Kickball and Potluck BBQ - bring food & drink to share. Help us make this a waste free event. BRING YOUR OWN REUSABLE UTENSILS, CUPS, AND PLATES. We will provide charcoal and ice. Wear good shoes for running and kicking!
There is no rain contingency for the Community Picnic. If it is drizzling, check HotButteredRum.net for the status of the event.
Please let me know if your plans change at 510 219-7438. 

Thanks,


Sienna
http://www.greenmeansgocars.com


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Water heaters- and production EV ceramics
From:
Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:57:33 -0800
To:
[email protected]


Rod Hower wrote:



The Dodge TEVan had a ceramic heater that provided
excellent heat for the winters in North Carolina.  Not
real cold there, but it does go below freezing.
It was espescially nice when I could provide almost
instant heat when taking my infant daughter over to
grandma Molly's before work.
Rod



David Roden wrote:
...
> Solectria Force used a ceramic element.
>

Yes, good to know. I didn't say I know no OEM EV with
ceramic heaters, I said I saw none at EVS22 a month
ago, and EVS is no small gathering - about 30 different (new
for this year) EVs were demonstrated. Check out www.evs22.org
Either liquid or heat pump style were used at least for those.

Victor

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
RE: Water heaters
From:
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:53:30 -0800
To:
[email protected]


Speak with Victor at metricmind.com  He has MES water heating units that can
handle that voltage.




Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada

see the New Beetle EV project   www.cameronsoftware.com/ev

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Zach
Sent: November 11, 2006 8:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Water heaters

Quick question: There is a manufacturer that makes water heaters for EVs in
the 300 volt range. I need some heat in the truck this winter (for
defrosting if nothing else) and need a unit, pref with an integrated pump
and control.

Any idea what it is?

Chris


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Water heaters
From:
Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:09:46 -0800
To:
[email protected]


If you have 6 kW heater, by all means use it, it of course will be
quicker than 4 kW. Are you asking for my blessing?

Victor

Chris Zach wrote:
A question: What do you think about the 6kw unit instead of the 4kw? I have a 300 volt pack and 6kw is really only about 20a draw. I could handle that with 10 gauge wiring and a 40a 300vdc relay. 

Chris



------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: EVLN(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)
From:
GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 13:05:39 -0800
To:
[email protected]


Just how much did it look like it?

It must have been a LOT.


On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:44 am, bruce parmenter wrote:
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles. 

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
From:
Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:00:46 -0600
To:
[email protected]


So, Who Killed The Electric Car this time?

Danny

Evan Tuer wrote:


Looks like you got your wish, the company making the Smart Car copy
has been threatened with a lawsuit by Daimler Chrysler and has stopped
production
http://202.101.38.80/art/2006/11/14/297044/Lawsuit_pulls_plug_on_electric_car.htm 

[..]
The City Spirit, which is powered by lithium batteries and has a range
of 300 kilometers and top speed of 60 kilometers an hour, was priced
from 38,000 yuan (US$4,750) to 80,000 yuan in China
[..]


On 9/26/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I got a bright idea and contacted Smart USA,
they will pass this infringement on to Mercedes.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)


Yep, that is the same CMEC that was reported earlier this week.

NOTE that the contact for this company is the same Jerry Chen
that answered the email to the Ebay listing!
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/htm.php?nowmenuid=29

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:03 PM
To: evlist
Subject: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)


Just as was POSTed this China company is making a Smart looking
knock-off with a nEV performance:
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/cp_detail.php?id=1993&nowmenuid=23&cpath=027 
2:0275:0280:&catid=280

If one did buy it, would the owner's local DMV register it?

Could they drive it on U.S. streets?

...

What is next? Knock-off EV parts/components for sale?
www.evparts.cn ???





Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter

' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere

__________________________________________________
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
From:
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:39:04 -0800
To:
"'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>


They did this to themselves by copying someone
else's design and riding on the advertisement,
name and fame of another manufacturer, until
the other became aware of the copy and shut them
down. Not very "Smart".

Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: 11/15/2006 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)

So, Who Killed The Electric Car this time?

Danny

Evan Tuer wrote:



Looks like you got your wish, the company making the Smart Car copy
has been threatened with a lawsuit by Daimler Chrysler and has stopped
production




http://202.101.38.80/art/2006/11/14/297044/Lawsuit_pulls_plug_on_electri
c_car.htm 

[..]
The City Spirit, which is powered by lithium batteries and has a range
of 300 kilometers and top speed of 60 kilometers an hour, was priced
from 38,000 yuan (US$4,750) to 80,000 yuan in China
[..]


On 9/26/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I got a bright idea and contacted Smart USA,
they will pass this infringement on to Mercedes.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)


Yep, that is the same CMEC that was reported earlier this week.

NOTE that the contact for this company is the same Jerry Chen
that answered the email to the Ebay listing!
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/htm.php?nowmenuid=29

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:03 PM
To: evlist
Subject: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)


Just as was POSTed this China company is making a Smart looking
knock-off with a nEV performance:



http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/cp_detail.php?id=1993&nowmenuid=23&cpath
=027 
2:0275:0280:&catid=280

If one did buy it, would the owner's local DMV register it?

Could they drive it on U.S. streets?

...

What is next? Knock-off EV parts/components for sale?
www.evparts.cn ???





Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter

' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
RE: EVLN(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)
From:
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:47:59 -0800
To:
"'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>


All the body panels were an exact copy cat.
Even to the point that they copied the typical
Smart half-moon door handles, although their
basis underneath did have regular rectangle
handles, which they cut out in the Smart panels.
Several other details from their basis differed,
like wipers and such, see the archives for the full list that I posted some time ago. 

Regards,
Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 11/15/2006 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: EVLN(DaimlerChrysler stops Chinese knock offs)

Just how much did it look like it?

It must have been a LOT.


On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:44 am, bruce parmenter wrote:
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles. 

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Lead acid terminal types
From:
"Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:54:20 -0700
To:
<[email protected]>
Hello Lee, The flag type terminals were on my 2 nd battery pack from 1985 to 1991. They were the large ones with a 3/8 hole. The post with the hole was given to a me which I gave them to a EE friend of my to run his VW bug, but they did not last long. On my Trojan T-145's which are a low profile post, which I should have never got, the studs started to pull out at 75 in.lbs. These post pads are about 1 inch in diameter and only 3/8 inch high. So WirthCo send me several samples to try. The 22206 which are all positives can be expanded to one inch with out breaking. All the others were too high and could not be expanded to 1 inch ID without breaking. This terminal not only makes contact around the pad, but also contacts the top surface of the L pad and can torque to over 100 inch lbs with additional downward pressure by using the top stud and washer tool. 
These are now running about 5 years with no problem.   Think as it as a large 
terminal lug, but is 1 inch in diameter instead of 5/15 in.  These battery 
terminals are still as bright today as when they were new.
----- Original Message ----- From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:44 AM 
 Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types


 Roland Wiench wrote:
 > I have used three different type of battery post. The L terminal,
 > the post with a hole in it, and the standard auto post with a stud.
 > In all three, I used a 2/0 size cable lug with a 3/8 hole.
 >
 > The L terminal post had a recommended torque of 90 in.lbs, but would
 > not stand up to the pressure. They would continue to shrink, and the
 > post would keep flattening more until the post developed cracks.
A clarification please, Roland. You were using a ring terminal with a 3/8" bolt hole, and 2/0 wire, on all of these terminals? 

   - The L terminal has no stud; it is just a vertical square tab
     with a 5/16" bolt hole in it. Did you bolt your ring terminal
     to it with a 5/16" bolt, or drill it out for a 3/8" bolt?

   - Likewise for the round automotive post with two flat sides an
     a hole through it. That hole is even smaller, 1/4" at the most.
     What size bolt did you use?

   - The auto post with a stud has a 5/16" stud, so you have no
     choice here.
I'm trying to figure out why you used a ring terminal with a 3/8" hole when none of these battery terminals is built for this size bolt. 

 One set of batteries I had, back then in 85, had two different size studs, a 
5/16 for the negative and 3/8 for the positive.  So I used a very heavy duty 
plated mil spec. terminal lug which is about 1 inch in diameter surface contact.

 In general, my own results match yours:
The L terminal is good for ease of use and low cost, but it isn't particularly good for high currents (anything over 200 amps continuous). There's no point in using 2/0 cable with an L terminal, because the terminal is your weak point.
The automotive post with two flats and a hole drilled in it is a Mickey Mouse setup that works equally bad at everything. I wouldn't even use it at 100 amps.
The terminals with a 5/16" stud are intended for low current loads, like 75 amp golf carts. You should never use it for high currents; it will quickly fail and give you lots of trouble.
The old automotive post is the best high-current connector. They hold up to at least 300 amps continuous, and survive peaks over 1000 amps. But for it to work, you need a good terminal. Not the cheap cast lead ones, or made out of bent sheet metal! I like the solid copper ones, though brass is also good.
Both copper and brass need to be completely covered, or they will corrode. I prefer lead-dipped, but tin or gold also work. Note that the gold plating on terminals is usually cosmetic only; the gold is too thin to have any real effect on corrosion. 

 > To solve this problem, I ordered ring type battery connectors from
 > Wirthco.com. These are like the marine type but is forged brass,
 > with a removable bolt that is gold plated... part #22205
Do you mean http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/401>
This is a showy cheap terminal, of the temporary repair type; not one built for good performance.
I'd suggest #22120 instead, and then lead-dip it after the wire is installed. Notice the thicker cross section, larger contact area, two bolts instead of one, etc. 
 
http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399<http://www.wirthco.com/product_info.php/cPath/7_98/products_id/399>
These did not work, because these T-145 pads are 1 inch in diameter and would not set all the down against the pad L bar. Need the thinner one which fit just right. Trojan offer to install the auto post on them, but It would cost me about $1000.00 to ship them back to them and back to me. So I will make do, with these until I get new batteries, which may not be the lead type. Roland -- Ring the bells that still can ring 
 Forget the perfect offering
 There is a crack in everything
 That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
 --
 Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
RE: Parallel packs.
From:
"Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:11:02 -0700 (MST)
To:
[email protected]


Except that Peukert takes a bigger bite out if you run the two packs
separately.  You'll get more range running the two packs in parallel.

As long as you watch your voltage, the nature of lead acid batteries will
insure that you don't over discharge one pack or the other.



I would do it as mentioned before - with a switch to bring in the other
pack.  But what I would do is completely switch OUT the depleted pack.
Run completely on one pack and then switch to another pack for extended
range.  If you parallel the packs the discharged pack will be partially
charged by the other pack instead of the total current going to the
motor.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:21
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Parallel packs.

Would this just be for occasional use?  If so, then I wouldn't carry the
extra weight around unless you think you're going to need it.

Are the ones in the El right now flooded or gel cells?
If they are flooded, then the 66AH gel cells probably have a higher
internal resistance.  This means that, early on most of the current will
come from the flooded batteries.  As the flooded get discharged their
internal resistance will rise and more current will come from the gel
cells.

If the current pack is gel cells, then the current distribution should
be a bit more even.

Either way, they should work OK on dischare.
Charging is a different matter, they should be disconnected and charged
as separate strings.



Hi guys and gals.

After an initial few days with the Mini El I've discovered that it
will, at a push, do 25 miles on the current lead acid pack of 3x12V,
75Ah (at C/5) batteries.

In my garage I have some 12v 66AH sealed gel batteries which I could
put in the trunk to further the range. I'd be connecting the second
set in parallel to the first.

While I know it's not a great way to increase my range (of course I'm
going to increase the weight) but the car had these batteries in when
I got it - they're  only a few months old and the ones I have in the
garage were given to me a few weeks ago. They seem to hold their
charge without a problem.

Any comments or ideas as to the best way to do this? Is it wise? I
can't afford a nice new pack yet (we'll probably go for some nice
Yellow Tops for a 48 V pack along with a new controller /charger when
the current cells have had it). It would be nice to get the range
nudging 35 or 40 miles rather than 25.  It also means I can run the
heater on shorter trips without risking running out! (Although I've
never got back home with a pack voltage under 35V!)

I'd appreciate any comments, good or bad!

Thanks

Nikki.




_______________________________
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Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Video is on YouTube (was: KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas)
From:
"Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:17:01 -0700 (MST)
To:
[email protected]


Very cool!

What caused the plasma splash at the end of the run?



Scot Colburn just put up the awesome video on YouTube. (Scotty
Pollacheck's girlfriend, Susan, took this fantastic video.)

Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dRpAZci9m0

And a better way to put the link on your website:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie"
value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3dRpAZci9m0";></param><embed
src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3dRpAZci9m0";
type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="600"
height="350"></embed></object>

Bill Dube'







------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Video is on YouTube (was: KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas)
From:
David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:15:03 -0800 (PST)
To:
[email protected]


Yay, Bill Dube's Killacycle's record run got a YouTube honor for being a "Top 
Rated" video.



Scot Colburn just put up the awesome video on YouTube. (Scotty
Pollacheck's girlfriend, Susan, took this fantastic video.)

Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dRpAZci9m0









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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
From:
"Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:08:42 -0800
To:
[email protected]


On Nov 14, 2006, at 7:01 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:


Hey Neon, you talkin' to me? ;^>

I didn't even participate in this thread until now...
My apologies Roger. I totally botched something... somewhere... lost in my head <g>. I was talking to David Roden. 


For what its worth, I agree with your summary (3 ways, use any two,
etc.), but will point out that David is correct (IMNSHO) in emphasising
isolation.  You will find that *no* production EV/NEV uses a
non-isolated charger, and many with isolated chargers back that up with
GFCI protection.  If OEMs could get away with a cheaper non-isolated
charger, they would. ;^>
And I will point out that hot tub manufacturers don't seem to choose isolation. They all seem to rely on grounding and GFCI as their 2 levels of safety while you sit in water connected to the heating elements. Just something to think about... 

Paul "neon" G.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
From:
Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:06:45 -0800
To:
[email protected]


On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 04:08:42PM -0800, Paul G. wrote:
And I will point out that hot tub manufacturers don't seem to choose isolation. 


Does isolation even make sense in the context of hot tubs? What would that
even mean?

The control panel on my parents hot tub is a series of air lines coming out
of a sealed box up to a series of user assessable buttons.

When you press one of the buttons, this causes a pressure increases in
the tubes which propagates back to the box inside the unit. This seems
like total isolation :)

Besides, this whole conversation is not really honest.

It's ok to say, I'm willing to sacrifice safety to save a bunch of money.
That's what we're really talking about right?

Powerful, safe, cheap...  Pick any two.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
Re: KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:07:21 EST
To:
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/15/2006 11:05:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
ubj: Re: KillaCycle Team, Back from Las Vegas Date:11/15/2006 11:05:36 AM Pacific Standard Time 
From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to:[email protected]
To:[email protected]
Received from Internet: 


Hello to Bill and All,
The scoreboard lit up showing: 8.760 @ 145.44 mph Bill Dube'
Whoa....congrats on that run! I assume you didn't get a back-up run to make that scorching time a new NEDRA record? In any EVent, I believe that's the quickest 1/4 mile run of any EV in the world! Dennis, you got a time slip for anything that quick?
Bill, you should get in touch with Brooks at DragTimes.com asap, and send him a fresh picture of the Bike (like the side profile pics I've seen from Joliet) along with a copy of that time slip. I know he'll be right on it to change the current window showing Killacycle as this month's featured TimeSlip vehicle. You should also send him a copy of the video you've got, too. I imagine a revised photo, that incredible 8.7 ET, and that video with an exciting burnout followed by a hot ET will really turn the gasser dudes' heads! 

From Dennis back in August of this year:
I already have the ALL OUT ET EV record 8.801 seconds...Someday someone will blow that 8.8 record away...I will at that point go heads up with anyone...I will step back up to the line. Until that time I ENJOY bracket racing not heads up style racing...(test lane is NOT racing)
Well, an 8.760 against your 8.801 isn't what anybody would call 'blowing you away'...geesh, we're looking at a scant .05 seconds difference! If Bill doesn't have a backup run to make that 8.7 an official NEDRA record, Dennis, your 8.801 record still stands...but the handwriting is certainly on the wall, and official NEDRA record or not, test lane or not, an 8.760 beats an 8.801 making Bill's 8.760 the world's quickest recorded ET for an electric vehicle (corrections, Mr. Berube?). *1 correction Bills record is a BIKE Record.But HE DOES have the qt.miles quickest ev. Dennis, perhaps it's time to stop 'playing around in the bracket racing ****John I really like to go bracket racing. scene' and get back to some serious heads up style racing :-) Perhaps it's time to rejoin NEDRA, step back up to the line, and kick some sand back in Bill's face. I'd be honored to return to the Phoenix desert and have you kick some sand in my face with your S10 street truck, which I'm sure could make me go back home crying to my mama! You'd better get that truck tuned up just right though, 'cause White Zombie's going to be running 11's this year. *At this point with 24 hawkers (128hp)the CE is not a match for Bills bike.Lets see what happens in 07.The s10 is now being worked on,it should be in your class hopefully I also can run in the 11s in 07. Man, this is smelling like NEDRA '97 again...only this year it's gonna be NEDRA '07! 

See Ya....John Wayland

Again, congrats to Bill!


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
micro-CHP another way to charge?
From:
Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:14:54 -0800 (PST)
To:
[email protected]


I never heard of these until now.
Thought it might be another efficient way to charge
the EV (if the utilities won't buy back the power it
goes into your EV)
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1114/p01s02-usec.html


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:
RE: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
From:
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:27:44 -0800
To:
"'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>


Isn't this the old issue of why we ever got the
inductive charging idea - so that you could
charge your car under water?

I agree that with grounding and GFCI you have
safety and a backup layer of safety, just as
industry standards prefer a well engineered
system. There is not really a need for isolation
to make it safe, even though some people may feel
like it is more safe, just like riding in a high
car feels safe. (It isn't, you are more likely
to get in a single vehicle crash from roll over)

Another reason to go for inductive charging may
be that this makes for a nice proprietary
interface - anybody can cut up a cable and attach another plug. Hacking up a new inductor 
is another story.

(There are other, technical reasons of course,
like no dirty contacts and no risk of touching
contacts that in a failure could still be powered)

Anyways - two layers of safety is enough.
Isolation is usually the most expensive solution.
Also the most inefficient one.
Why go there if it's not needed?

Cor.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: 11/15/2006 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F

On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 04:08:42PM -0800, Paul G. wrote:
And I will point out that hot tub manufacturers don't seem to choose isolation. 


Does isolation even make sense in the context of hot tubs? What would
that
even mean?

The control panel on my parents hot tub is a series of air lines coming
out
of a sealed box up to a series of user assessable buttons.

When you press one of the buttons, this causes a pressure increases in
the tubes which propagates back to the box inside the unit. This seems
like total isolation :)

Besides, this whole conversation is not really honest.

It's ok to say, I'm willing to sacrifice safety to save a bunch of
money.
That's what we're really talking about right?

Powerful, safe, cheap...  Pick any two.


--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 850-8535
Eve:  206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org

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