EV Digest 6146
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Patent revocation for public good
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: VW Rabbit Transmission
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Suspension/Spring Supplier
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Connectors - Power Wheels type
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Eliminate Reversing Contactors
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Why NIMH? Re: Patent revocation for public good
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Suspension/Spring Supplier
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Connectors - Power Wheels type
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Simple Isolation Question
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Simple Isolation Question
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: GE LXT Meter
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Simple Isolation Question
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Simple Isolation Question
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Simple Isolation Question
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Suspension/Spring Supplier
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Eliminate Reversing Contactors
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) KillaCycle - SPARKS - at end of Video
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Battery Advice Needed (LONG)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: KillaCycle - SPARKS - at end of Video
by Jim Walls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Eliminate Reversing Contactors
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: KillaCycle - SPARKS - at end of Video
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Simple Isolation Question
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Ceramic heaters
by canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Water heaters
by canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Battery Advice Needed (LONG)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'm afraid any solution to disconnect paralleled cells would be quite
expensive, more than the cells themselves. There would be like 800
cells here. The switching element will add its own resistance.
But as noted it's relatively difficult to determine SOC in a NiMH.
There is no "simple" circuit here. In fact if we have 8 D-cells in
parallel, then they all have the same voltage. You would need a current
shunt on each battery to know anything about what each cell is doing.
Note that the recommended charging alogithm is to more or less to
provide a known current and watch the cell voltage. Using the same
algorithm with unbalanced cells, the paralleled cell's voltage is
gradually rising during charge, but the current per cell will not be
evenly divided. Since the voltage on the cell varies with lesser regard
to that particular cell's SOC the cell current will not be constant.
Danny
GWMobile wrote:
The parts cost to balance such small power cells shouldn't be much.
A simply circuit mesh between each cell that measured relative
strength and shunted power between cells is a common design task and
done everyday in a million other circuits.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: VW Rabbit Transmission
> I can sweeten the pot! Found the flywheel/clutch assy, a driveshaft/CV
joint, and a diesel fuel distributor (which probably has a proper name).
> Gees! Keep lookin'! Maybe ya can find a 82 or so two door sedan body?Miss
my Rabbit!
Bob
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 1:36:53 PM
> Subject: Re: VW Rabbit Transmission
>
> The diesels were all 4 speed in that era as far as I know. The ratios are
> better for electric too. Lawrence Rhodes......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: VW Rabbit Transmission
>
>
> > I might have use for it. Four speed or Five? And what do you want for
it?
> >
> > Regards, Mike
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "List EV" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 11:57 AM
> > Subject: VW Rabbit Transmission
> >
> >
> > >I have an 80's era transmission from a diesel Rabbit. I'm told they fit
> > >regular Rabbit, just lower ratios. Anybody have use for it?
> > > storm
> > > Barkhamsted, CT
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.6/536 - Release Date: 11/16/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had good luck with Coil Spring Specialties of St Mary's Kansas. Google
them!
Happy hunting
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "martin emde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 3:00 PM
Subject: Suspension/Spring Supplier
> Hi,
> Does anyone know of a company/supplier for enhanced performance (stiffer)
> springs. I remember seeing a name on the list a few months back. I'm
> converting a 1988 Toyota Corola. You can email me off list.
> Thanks.
> Martin
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.6/536 - Release Date: 11/16/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Did anyone on the list find a source to buy these Power Wheels
type connectors? I need a total of 18 to finish my project.
I believe these are (similar to) Anderson PowerPole connectors:
<http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pp/pp.html>
In particular, the PP15 (15A version).
You can buy them direct from Anderson for $7.10/10 housings, e.g.:
Or from http://www.Waytekwire.com for about .30$ per housing and .15$
each for the 15 amp pin. (the 30amp pins are ,13$, go figure)
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I like it - a simple DPDT switch, the only issue would be
when someone would throw it at load/speed.
BTW, the fact that 4 contactors are used is also because
there is no "systems" approach, but the controller
manufacturer is optimizing the controller by itself,
which always causes a sub-optimum in almost all applicatoins
of the controller.
Would he look at the non-transmission EVs as a system, the
controller would have a bridge output and reverse by its
electronics, or at least have a push-pull (for example all
MOSFETs instead of switch and diode) output, which would
reduce the nr of contactors from 4 to 2, which can then
be replaced by one single pole that switches the other
motor contact between +batt and -batt.
(the first side of the motor is on the push-pull output).
The contactor for the heater is unnecessary if a simple
PWM control is used, which can be much cheaper than the
contactor.
Between the main battery contactor (when will that become
a fail-safe electronic switch?) and the single reversing
contactor (if no electronic bridge drive is used) we have
saved a lot of expensive contactors by looking at the system.
BTW: if I were to design a controller, I would be very
tempted to integrate a simple extra PWM output for a heater
as that costs only a single extra MOSFET and one pin on the
microcontroller.
With one more A/D input pin, the heater can even be
thermostat-controlled, so you could have an electronic
climate control in your EV.
I would also integrate the pre-charge and main contactor
functionalty by some additional MOSFETs that are current
limited for the precharge, then full-on.
Now, before you start "and what if the controller fails
full-on and you want to have a throttle switch that
drops the contactor, but if the electronic contactor is
also full-on...." Simple. When the throttle is released
(or whenever the contactor control is dropped) you fire
a TRIAC across the motor outputs to short them.
If the controller works, its output should be zero and
nothing happens. If the controller has failed, the
TRIAC will short the batteries through the failing
controller and the breaker or fuse will blow and stop
the vehicle.
As I said - you can make things fail-safe.
While we are at it,
the 12V DC/DC and the battery pack chargers can also
be integrated into one master brain, which would need
a selection/programming of charge algorithms but make
an EV real simple.
Hook up the main battery pack via a fuse/breaker
Hook up the 12V aux battery (note: can be omitted)
Hook up the motor
hook up the throttle and other controls/displays
if wanted, hook up the ceramic heater
Install the water cooling tubes and pump
Install a charge plug,
Done.
Why can the aux battery be eliminated?
Well - since there is no more chicken-and-egg
problem with how to energize the main contactor
to get the power to make 12V, as a standby power
supply can easily make 12V very efficiently
(not use the main 100+ Amp DC/DC converter, but
rather have a small, efficient 1Amp DC/DC
always-on, this will allow it to run 2 or 3 months
before the main pack gets empty at that power,
while it can be sufficient to start the controller
enough to engage pre-charge and close the
'contactor' MOSFETs to provide power for the main
DC/DC. With the DC/DC converter powerful enough to
survive the largest loads, there is no need for
the aux battery.
Note: I'd integrate the functionality of an Emeter
as well, so no more pack voltages running into the
dashboard with the risk of shorting pack to ground
but simply hooking up a display with ground/12V aux
as references.
No more shunts, no more contactor arrays.
An all-transistor EV!
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 8:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Eliminate Reversing Contactors
Edward Ang wrote:
> I just got an idea of eliminating the reversing contactors.
> Or, more accurately reducing the number from 4 to 1. I am
> using the Sparrow as an example of an EV without a transmission.
There have been EVs that used a separate motor to implement reverse. It
can be done if you are talented mechanically. But overall, it feels like
a kluge (something that works, but is doing things the hard way).
Given that you have a series motor, I think a set of reversing
contactors (or switches) is the easiest way to do it.
Roger Stockton asked:
>> Does the Sparrow actually use 4 SPST contactors to implement the
>> reversing function, or does it use the more conventional paired
>> SPDT set as a DPDT reversing contactor?
> It uses 4 Kilovac contactors at around $100 a piece. Another for
> the main contactor. Another one for the heater. How can an EV be
> affordable if it needs $600 of contactors.
Sounds like a bad implementation of a good solution. :-)
Reversing contactors are never switched under load; so they don't have
to break a worst-case fault. There are always two contacts in series, so
they only have to be rated for half the pack voltage. These factors
greatly reduce the size of contacts needed.
The most economical solution is a single reversing switch (not a
contactor). Just provide a "gearshift" lever that is really a big switch.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee and All,
Good points Lee. But I wonder why we
should care about NiMH batts as they never will be a useful
EV battery!!
Why is they are too expensive from their
material costs which won't change, they are barely better
than Ni-cads!! Nicads are almost as good and cost 1/4 NiMH
price!
Any batt with a cell voltage of 1.2vdc
which requires many more cells added to it's needed high
materials, BMS prices mean NiMH will never be practical
compared to Li-ions, ect batts with a 3.7vpc and many times
less expensive materials. The higher cell voltage of 2.12vpc
is why Lead batts are still the leader in batts.
I seem to remember Texaco/Chevron put
their NiMH batts up for sale as they still are I think but
no one bought any because of their nessasarily rediculessly
high prices. Any of you EVer's want to buy any at those
prices? I won't.
We should concentrate on getting better
Li-ion, Li-poly, ect batteries which have many times more
promise to cost effectively power EV's.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Patent revocation for public good
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 22:02:19 -0600
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>> What do people think about the idea that patent law
>> should be modified so that patents can not only be
>> revoked if issued in error or if prior invention was
>> proved but also if the patent is being used by a
>competitive player solely to ensure the technology is NOT
>> developed or deployed.
>
>This is already a part of patent law, although it is
>awkward and difficult to do in practice.
>
>If you have a patent, and someone violates your patent,
>your legal remedy is to sue them for damages. It's not
>uncommon for a court to award you treble damages if you
>can show that the violation was deliberate.
>
>But... if you have been doing NOTHING with the patent
>except sitting on it, you will have a difficult time
>convincing a judge that you have suffered any damages.
>Therefore, you might win the case... but be awarded $1 as
>compensation. The patent infringer has to cease using the
>patented idea; but he gets to keep all his profits up to
>that point.
>
>At least, that's how it worked in the past. But nowdays,
>you will hire sharp lawyers to argue that you were
>spending a fortune on R&D to develop the patent, or were
>engaged in expensive negotiations to sell or license the
>patent to someone; and thanks to the infringer, all your
>precious money is lost. You can invent millions of dollars
>of "losses" for these efforts, even though you never
>produced anything.
>
>--
>Ring the bells that still can ring
>Forget the perfect offering
>There is a crack in everything
>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>--
>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
>leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may also consider air shocks. You can adjust the height even if you change
the
weight/batteries. These guys seemed to have good prices on name brand products.
http://www.shockshopusa.com/
Dave Cover
--- martin emde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> Does anyone know of a company/supplier for enhanced performance (stiffer)
> springs. I remember seeing a name on the list a few months back. I'm
> converting a 1988 Toyota Corola. You can email me off list.
> Thanks.
> Martin
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
I use hundreds of these or close to a 1000 in my EV. Again I purchase them
through my local wholesale electrical supply house. They purchase them in a
minimum order of 1000 connectors from Anderson Power. They normally combine
this order with other Anderson Power products of which I combine with a cable
set and 200 amp at 480 power plug for ground power units for aircraft starting.
If a electrical job is specific to used this type of gangable plug/connector
for drop in light fixtures, comm systems, terminal strips, then any of our
electrical supply houses can order them from Anderson Power.
I used over 200 of these connectors which are gang, in my console, so all I
have to do is to unplug the console to remove it.
Over 90 percent of the items that everybody was looking for on this EV list,
can be bought from a electrical supply house or motor shop. I can order any
type of traction motor from my local motor shop plus all the high power
electronics items you want. You do not have to find a item that a person
thinks it has to be order from just that one specialized dealer.
I just use the last of the connector pins last month, so I won't being order
any more, until it can be combine with a larger Power Anderson order.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Farver<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Connectors - Power Wheels type
Roger Stockton wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>> Did anyone on the list find a source to buy these Power Wheels
>> type connectors? I need a total of 18 to finish my project.
>>
>
> I believe these are (similar to) Anderson PowerPole connectors:
>
>
<http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pp/pp.html<http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pp/pp.html>>
>
> In particular, the PP15 (15A version).
>
> You can buy them direct from Anderson for $7.10/10 housings, e.g.:
>
Or from http://www.Waytekwire.com<http://www.waytekwire.com/> for about .30$
per housing and .15$
each for the 15 amp pin. (the 30amp pins are ,13$, go figure)
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a simple question about isolating my eMeter. I want to run the eMeter
off the house battery
and want to avoid letting the smoke out. Is it as simple as putting a small
transformer between
the battery and the eMeter? No stepping up or down of the voltage, just
isolation. The eMeter is
the only thing running off this transformer. I'll have a dc-dc providing a
charge from the pack to
the house battery, and that is isolated too.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Transformer won't work with DC.
----- Original Message ----
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:07:39 AM
Subject: Simple Isolation Question
I have a simple question about isolating my eMeter. I want to run the eMeter
off the house battery
and want to avoid letting the smoke out. Is it as simple as putting a small
transformer between
the battery and the eMeter? No stepping up or down of the voltage, just
isolation. The eMeter is
the only thing running off this transformer. I'll have a dc-dc providing a
charge from the pack to
the house battery, and that is isolated too.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What type of information do you need?
I have error codes for various controls (GE used this
same meter for many different controls including
series, sepex, MOSFET, IGBT and SCR, so the error
codes vary according to the control type).
I also have the pinouts for some of these controls.
Also, are you looking for info on the round display
meter or the handset that can program the control
card?
Rod
--- Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does any one have any information on the above
> meter?
>
> Peter
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Transformer won't work with DC.
>
That's that whole wire moving through a field to induce a current thing. So to
get isolation (in
DC), I still need a simple 12v to 12v dc-dc?
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The transformer will not work with DC. You can get a small, inexpensive
DC-DC converter that will isolate the EMeter. The units are about 3/4"
square and cost about $20. As at your local electronics shop.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: November 18, 2006 7:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Simple Isolation Question
I have a simple question about isolating my eMeter. I want to run the eMeter
off the house battery and want to avoid letting the smoke out. Is it as
simple as putting a small transformer between the battery and the eMeter? No
stepping up or down of the voltage, just isolation. The eMeter is the only
thing running off this transformer. I'll have a dc-dc providing a charge
from the pack to the house battery, and that is isolated too.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Don -
Can you supply more info about these?
For example, does Digi-key sell these? Or Jameco or Mouser? Do you have a
part number?
I need isolated power for my home-brew voltage and current instrumentation (
not for an e-meter).
The only isolated DC-DC converters I've been able to find are single-IC
devices for about $8, and, according to Lee, these generally have poor
isolation. I would gladly buy something for $20 if it would reliably do the
job.
Thanks,
Phil
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Simple Isolation Question
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:17:51 -0800
The transformer will not work with DC. You can get a small, inexpensive
DC-DC converter that will isolate the EMeter. The units are about 3/4"
square and cost about $20. As at your local electronics shop.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: November 18, 2006 7:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Simple Isolation Question
I have a simple question about isolating my eMeter. I want to run the
eMeter
off the house battery and want to avoid letting the smoke out. Is it as
simple as putting a small transformer between the battery and the eMeter?
No
stepping up or down of the voltage, just isolation. The eMeter is the only
thing running off this transformer. I'll have a dc-dc providing a charge
from the pack to the house battery, and that is isolated too.
Thanks
Dave Cover
_________________________________________________________________
Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered
by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin, I had mine custom made by Coil Spring Specialists in Kansas for
approx $170.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of martin emde
Sent: November 17, 2006 12:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Suspension/Spring Supplier
Hi,
Does anyone know of a company/supplier for enhanced performance (stiffer)
springs. I remember seeing a name on the list a few months back. I'm
converting a 1988 Toyota Corola. You can email me off list.
Thanks.
Martin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI-
I know it's fun for computer jockeys to dream up complex systems to reverse
a
series motor, but why not just go to EV Parts and get a golf cart reversing
switch
for $ 61.and change,then replace the bus bars with heaver ones. Warning, do
not
switch this unit under load!
I have used this unit at 1200 amps on a 120 volt pack of Exide Orbitals.
FT.
> [Original Message]
> From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Date: 11/17/2006 2:31:48 PM
> Subject: Re: Eliminate Reversing Contactors
>
> You could use a small AC motor, they can run at high rpms, and work
> better for regen. But this would be an expensive setup compared to
> reversing contactors. A full H-bridge controller would be good,
> although also probably expensive, not sure who even has them.
> Jack
>
> Edward Ang wrote:
> > Then, like I mentioned, a electric clutch might be used to decouple
> > the small motor when driving forward. Or use 2 small motors in
> > parallel and a smaller gear ratio.
> >
> > On 11/17/06, John G. Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> At 11:30 AM 11/17/2006, Edward Ang wrote:
> >> >If this works, we might be able to come out with a clever way to use
> >> >the permanent magnet motor to do some regen.
> >> >
> >> >Did I miss something?
> >>
> >> Well, since the small motor has a much bigger gear ratio, when
> >> running in Forward it would probably over-rev.
> >>
> >> --
> >> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> >> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thought I have combed through the last few days of EVDL posts quite
carefully.. But
NO ANSWER as to what the sparks were. BILL ?? Can you tell us. ??
Im speaking of the video on YouTube, of your record runs last week..
And as the bike goes up the exit run,, there is a shower of sparks.
Two folks have asked... if you know what they were caused by....Could
you let us know.?
(maybe it is a secret weapon... a Plasma JET gone bad ? )
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Back in Sept I mentioned that I was having battery problems and after
discharge testing my C&D Dynasty DCS-100L 12Volt AGMs, that I had
only a fraction of the rated capacity left. Though rated 100 AH at
20 Hours and 49.2 AH at 1 hour the best three only delivered 26.5 AH
under a 75 Amp load.
After a lot of delays I finally got two of the batteries shipped back
to C&D and after loosing them then relocating them they tested one
and cut the second up for internal exam. Their opinion was the
batteries were heavily sulfated due to chronic undercharging. These
batteries were purchased December 2nd, 2005 and I had my Zivan NG5
reprogrammed and updated specifically to match them.
I had been doing some data logging of charge and discharge cycles
using an old laptop plugged into the RS232 port on my E-meter. When
I reviewed that data, this is what I found from in January:
4:39:08 PM Turned Off Car Pack Volt 159.5 (12.27 Volts
per batt.) -20.7 AH
4:39:47 PM Plugged in Charger Pack Volt 161.5 (12.42 Volts
per batt.) -20.7 AH
4:39:48 PM Max Charge Current Pack Volt 164.0 (12.62 Volts
per batt.) -20.7 AH 25.1 Amps current
5:22:28 PM End Bulk Phase Pack Volt 190.0 (14.62 Volts
per batt.) - 5.5 AH 16.5 Amps current
6:14:49 PM End Constant Volt Pack Volt 190.0 (14.62 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH 2.1 Amps current
6:14:58 PM First Pulse Pack Volt 181.5 (13.96 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH 3.4 Amps Current
6:32:48 PM Last Pulse Pack Volt 183.5 (14.12 Volts
per batt.) .3 AH 3.3 Amps Current
6:32:49 PM Unplugged Charger Pack Volt 180.5 (13.88 Volts
per batt.) .3 AH -.1 Amps Current
6:33:58 PM Turned On Car Pack Volt 174.5 (13.42
Volts per batt.) .3 AH -2.2 Amps Current
6:34::48 PM Meter Reset AH Pack Volt 167.0 (12.85 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH -26.7 Amps Current
6:39:38 PM Turned Car Off Pack Volt 164.5 (12.65 Volts
per batt.) - 4.1 AH - 1.5 Amps Current
6:51:21 PM Turned Car On Pack Volt 167.0 (12.85 Volts
per batt.) - 4.1 AH - 1.6 Amps Current
7:00:38 PM Turned Car Off Pack Volt 164.0 (12.62 Volts
per batt.) - 11.2 AH -0.4 Amps Current
7:00:56 PM Plugged Charger In Pack Volt 166.5 (12.81 Volts
per batt.) -11.2 AH 21.2 Amps Current
7:00:57 PM Peak Charge Current Pack Volt 167.5 (12.88 Volts
per batt.) -11.2 AH 24.7 Amps Current
7:21:40 PM End Bulk Phase Pack Volt 189.5 (14.58 Volts
per batt.) - 3.6 AH 22.2 Amps Current
7:51:17 PM End Constant Volt Pack Volt 189.5 (14.58 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH 2.1 Amps Current
7:51:20 PM First Pulse Pack Volt 191.5 (14.73 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH 2.4 Amps Current
11:27:04 PM Highest Voltage Pack Volt 203.0 (15.62 Volts
per batt.) 2.4 AH -0.1 Amps Current
11:49:16 PM Last Pulse Pack Volt 201.5 (15.50 Volts
per batt.) 2.5 AH 1.3 Amps Current
11:49:17 PM Charger Shuts Off Pack Volt 199.5 (15.35 Volts
per batt.) 2.5 AH -0.1 Amps Current
12:49:17 AM Charger Off 1 hour Pack Volt 168.0 (12.92 Volts
per batt.) 2.4 AH -0.1 Amps Current
12:59:52 AM Meter Reset AH Pack Volt 168.0 (12.92 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH -0.1 Amps Current
1:49:17 AM Charger Off 2 hours Pack Volt 166.0 (12.77 Volts
per batt.) - 0.1 AH -0.1 Amps Current
2:49:17 AM Charger Off 3 hours Pack Volt 166.0 (12.77 Volts
per batt.) - 0.2 AH -0.1 Amps Current
3:49:17 AM Charger Off 4 hours Pack Volt 166.0 (12.77 Volts
per batt.) - 0.3 AH -0.1 Amps Current
4:49:17 AM Charger Off 5 hours Pack Volt 165.5 (12.73 Volts
per batt.) - 0.4 AH 0 Amps Current
5:49:17 AM Charger Off 6 hours Pack Volt 165.0 (12.69 Volts
per batt.) - 0.5 AH -0.1 Amps Current
6:49:17 AM Charger Off 7 hours Pack Volt 165.5 (12.73 Volts
per batt.) - 0.6 AH -0.1 Amps Current
7:49:17 AM Charger Off 8 hours Pack Volt 165.5 (12.73 Volts
per batt.) - 0.7 AH -0.1 Amps Current
8:49:17 AM Charger Off 9 hours Pack Volt 165.0 (12.69 Volts
per batt.) - 0.7 AH -0.1 Amps Current
9:49:17 AM Charger Off 10 hours Pack Volt 165.0 (12.69 Volts
per batt.) - 0.8 AH -0.1 Amps Current
10:49:17 AM Charger Off 11 hours Pack Volt 165.0 (12.69 Volts
per batt.) - 0.9 AH -0.1 Amps Current
11:49:17 AM Charger Off 12 hours Pack Volt 164.5 (12.65 Volts
per batt.) - 1.0 AH -0.1 Amps Current
I then pulled up a file from September and found virtually identical
results. I also check the September data on the 120 VAC modified
"Fair Radio" charger and found it tapered to .5 Amps at 194 Volts,
and 1 hour after shut off the voltage had dropped to 170.5
Volts. After 6 hours it was down to 165.0 Volts. After 12 hours it
was 164.5 Volts and after 24 hours it was 164 Volts.
So, can anyone tell me what they see in this? Does this look like
chronic under charging? Is my constant on DC/DC and the load from
driving the laptop for data logging distorting the results?
What am I doing wrong?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven Lough wrote:
Thought I have combed through the last few days of EVDL posts quite
carefully.. But
NO ANSWER as to what the sparks were. BILL ?? Can you tell us. ??
Im speaking of the video on YouTube, of your record runs last week..
And as the bike goes up the exit run,, there is a shower of sparks.
Two folks have asked... if you know what they were caused by....Could
you let us know.?
(maybe it is a secret weapon... a Plasma JET gone bad ? )
It's been answered several times here on the list. Short version is
some debris on the strip got up into the motor and caused a partial
fireball.
--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11/18/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
HI-
I know it's fun for computer jockeys to dream up complex systems to reverse
a
series motor,
Indeed
I did exactly that on some napkins over lunch a few weeks ago. The
conclusion was that a silicon based reversing motor controller with
regen for series motor will be about as complex and expensive as a
3phase controller and wouldn't be nearly as good.
The simplicity of the basic series motor chopper controller is what
makes it so useful, if you want to get fancy; go 3phase.
- Peter the computer jockey
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
several posts mentioned that bolts were found on the track and that one must
have been picked up by the tire and thrown through the back motor and exited
in a different state of matter :op
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:09 AM
Subject: KillaCycle - SPARKS - at end of Video
Thought I have combed through the last few days of EVDL posts quite
carefully.. But
NO ANSWER as to what the sparks were. BILL ?? Can you tell us. ??
Im speaking of the video on YouTube, of your record runs last week..
And as the bike goes up the exit run,, there is a shower of sparks.
Two folks have asked... if you know what they were caused by....Could you
let us know.?
(maybe it is a secret weapon... a Plasma JET gone bad ? )
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may be able to use one of the universal input power bricks that
you can get used from places like Marlin P Jones surplus. Generally
around $8. These are definitely well isolated as they are usually UL approved.
]At 08:42 AM 11/18/2006, Phil Marino wrote:
Hi, Don -
Can you supply more info about these?
For example, does Digi-key sell these? Or Jameco or Mouser? Do you
have a part number?
I need isolated power for my home-brew voltage and current
instrumentation ( not for an e-meter).
The only isolated DC-DC converters I've been able to find are
single-IC devices for about $8, and, according to Lee, these
generally have poor isolation. I would gladly buy something for $20
if it would reliably do the job.
Thanks,
Phil
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Simple Isolation Question
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:17:51 -0800
The transformer will not work with DC. You can get a small, inexpensive
DC-DC converter that will isolate the EMeter. The units are about 3/4"
square and cost about $20. As at your local electronics shop.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: November 18, 2006 7:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Simple Isolation Question
I have a simple question about isolating my eMeter. I want to run the eMeter
off the house battery and want to avoid letting the smoke out. Is it as
simple as putting a small transformer between the battery and the eMeter? No
stepping up or down of the voltage, just isolation. The eMeter is the only
thing running off this transformer. I'll have a dc-dc providing a charge
from the pack to the house battery, and that is isolated too.
Thanks
Dave Cover
_________________________________________________________________
Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio
powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We do stock a number of heaters in voltages from 36 - 120, 120-168 and
220-300 volts.
These are all available in our new thin plastic housing which is just 1
3/8" thick.
We also have the complete heater box assembly with any of these elements
installed which has two outlets, three speed fan, 4 feet of heater hose,
two dash outlets, fuse, fuse holder and Albright SW-60 contactor.
BFN
Randy
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It does not look like you read the previous post through.
The truck had power to the heating element 24/7 for a couple of months.
The driver felt the heat when they turned the blower on one day just to
get some airflow, at that point they called me and I replaced the
contactor for the heater.
I know this is just one isolated incident but I think the fact that we
have not heard of of any fires out of the 800 we have sold speaks well
of there durability.
BFN
Randy
From: canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Water heaters
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:57:10 -0800
Have you had this experience?
We have now sold over 800 of those ceramic heaters and never heard of
anyone having a problem? Apparently I'm always the last the hear.
I had a fleet customer with a Nissan pick up a few years (12 years)
ago that had a defective heater relay and was welded closed for a few
months in the summer before the customer noticed the extra warm air
coming out of the vents even with the "heat" switch turned off.
It had done no damage to any of the duct or the element and that
truck is still in his fleet with the same heater.
The old Nicrom wire heaters (hair dryers) would just get hotter and
hotter with no air flow until something burned up but the ceramic's
will heat up to a certain temp and then start to reduce current draw
if there is no airflow.
I just went out and checked on my Neon.
It draws about 17 amps at 144 volts. As soon as you turn the fan off
the current drops to about 5 amps in the first minute and down to
about 2.5 amps in the second minute.
With about 350 watts of heat you should not be causing anything to
catch fire?
350 watts is more than enough to melt or burn things if there is no
external airflow to take away the heat. Have you tried leaving the
heater on (with no air flow) for an hour? Any damage or fire then?
Let us know what happens.
Phil
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
Assuming that you have a 156 volt pack, the maximum charge is to be 14.1V x 13
= 183.3 volts. The float charge is 13.5V x 13 = 175.5 volts.
According to my battery manual, it said CAUTION: Never equalize a battery that
has VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) which is either a Gel or AGM type.
Overcharging causes excessive gassing (water break down), heat up, and battery
ageing. Will dry out and damage the battery.
Did they say how much electrolyte was in each cell as compare to a new cell?
You should be charging to 183.3 volts every time and not go above that voltage
for AGM batteries.
It is normal for the batteries to drop to 12.8V or 166.4 volts after setting 12
hrs and when applying a small initial load, like backing up slowly, should be
about 12.66 volts or 165.58 volts.
You need to balance the pack by using A BMS or charging each battery up to the
183.3 volt limit.
Also check for the dates on the batteries, when I purchase a pack of 30
batteries, some where one month old which was ship from the factory and some
where 9 months old setting in some warehouse. I blew up 10 of these batteries
right away when I apply a 200 amp load on them, because they were so sulfated.
I made them replaced the whole pack with new batteries that were not over 2
weeks old.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Chancey<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:45 AM
Subject: Battery Advice Needed (LONG)
Hi folks,
Back in Sept I mentioned that I was having battery problems and after
discharge testing my C&D Dynasty DCS-100L 12Volt AGMs, that I had
only a fraction of the rated capacity left. Though rated 100 AH at
20 Hours and 49.2 AH at 1 hour the best three only delivered 26.5 AH
under a 75 Amp load.
After a lot of delays I finally got two of the batteries shipped back
to C&D and after loosing them then relocating them they tested one
and cut the second up for internal exam. Their opinion was the
batteries were heavily sulfated due to chronic undercharging. These
batteries were purchased December 2nd, 2005 and I had my Zivan NG5
reprogrammed and updated specifically to match them.
I had been doing some data logging of charge and discharge cycles
using an old laptop plugged into the RS232 port on my E-meter. When
I reviewed that data, this is what I found from in January:
4:39:08 PM Turned Off Car Pack Volt 159.5 (12.27 Volts
per batt.) -20.7 AH
4:39:47 PM Plugged in Charger Pack Volt 161.5 (12.42 Volts
per batt.) -20.7 AH
4:39:48 PM Max Charge Current Pack Volt 164.0 (12.62 Volts
per batt.) -20.7 AH 25.1 Amps current
5:22:28 PM End Bulk Phase Pack Volt 190.0 (14.62 Volts
per batt.) - 5.5 AH 16.5 Amps current
6:14:49 PM End Constant Volt Pack Volt 190.0 (14.62 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH 2.1 Amps current
6:14:58 PM First Pulse Pack Volt 181.5 (13.96 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH 3.4 Amps Current
6:32:48 PM Last Pulse Pack Volt 183.5 (14.12 Volts
per batt.) .3 AH 3.3 Amps Current
6:32:49 PM Unplugged Charger Pack Volt 180.5 (13.88 Volts
per batt.) .3 AH -.1 Amps Current
6:33:58 PM Turned On Car Pack Volt 174.5 (13.42
Volts per batt.) .3 AH -2.2 Amps Current
6:34::48 PM Meter Reset AH Pack Volt 167.0 (12.85 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH -26.7 Amps Current
6:39:38 PM Turned Car Off Pack Volt 164.5 (12.65 Volts
per batt.) - 4.1 AH - 1.5 Amps Current
6:51:21 PM Turned Car On Pack Volt 167.0 (12.85 Volts
per batt.) - 4.1 AH - 1.6 Amps Current
7:00:38 PM Turned Car Off Pack Volt 164.0 (12.62 Volts
per batt.) - 11.2 AH -0.4 Amps Current
7:00:56 PM Plugged Charger In Pack Volt 166.5 (12.81 Volts
per batt.) -11.2 AH 21.2 Amps Current
7:00:57 PM Peak Charge Current Pack Volt 167.5 (12.88 Volts
per batt.) -11.2 AH 24.7 Amps Current
7:21:40 PM End Bulk Phase Pack Volt 189.5 (14.58 Volts
per batt.) - 3.6 AH 22.2 Amps Current
7:51:17 PM End Constant Volt Pack Volt 189.5 (14.58 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH 2.1 Amps Current
7:51:20 PM First Pulse Pack Volt 191.5 (14.73 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH 2.4 Amps Current
11:27:04 PM Highest Voltage Pack Volt 203.0 (15.62 Volts
per batt.) 2.4 AH -0.1 Amps Current
11:49:16 PM Last Pulse Pack Volt 201.5 (15.50 Volts
per batt.) 2.5 AH 1.3 Amps Current
11:49:17 PM Charger Shuts Off Pack Volt 199.5 (15.35 Volts
per batt.) 2.5 AH -0.1 Amps Current
12:49:17 AM Charger Off 1 hour Pack Volt 168.0 (12.92 Volts
per batt.) 2.4 AH -0.1 Amps Current
12:59:52 AM Meter Reset AH Pack Volt 168.0 (12.92 Volts
per batt.) 0 AH -0.1 Amps Current
1:49:17 AM Charger Off 2 hours Pack Volt 166.0 (12.77 Volts
per batt.) - 0.1 AH -0.1 Amps Current
2:49:17 AM Charger Off 3 hours Pack Volt 166.0 (12.77 Volts
per batt.) - 0.2 AH -0.1 Amps Current
3:49:17 AM Charger Off 4 hours Pack Volt 166.0 (12.77 Volts
per batt.) - 0.3 AH -0.1 Amps Current
4:49:17 AM Charger Off 5 hours Pack Volt 165.5 (12.73 Volts
per batt.) - 0.4 AH 0 Amps Current
5:49:17 AM Charger Off 6 hours Pack Volt 165.0 (12.69 Volts
per batt.) - 0.5 AH -0.1 Amps Current
6:49:17 AM Charger Off 7 hours Pack Volt 165.5 (12.73 Volts
per batt.) - 0.6 AH -0.1 Amps Current
7:49:17 AM Charger Off 8 hours Pack Volt 165.5 (12.73 Volts
per batt.) - 0.7 AH -0.1 Amps Current
8:49:17 AM Charger Off 9 hours Pack Volt 165.0 (12.69 Volts
per batt.) - 0.7 AH -0.1 Amps Current
9:49:17 AM Charger Off 10 hours Pack Volt 165.0 (12.69 Volts
per batt.) - 0.8 AH -0.1 Amps Current
10:49:17 AM Charger Off 11 hours Pack Volt 165.0 (12.69 Volts
per batt.) - 0.9 AH -0.1 Amps Current
11:49:17 AM Charger Off 12 hours Pack Volt 164.5 (12.65 Volts
per batt.) - 1.0 AH -0.1 Amps Current
I then pulled up a file from September and found virtually identical
results. I also check the September data on the 120 VAC modified
"Fair Radio" charger and found it tapered to .5 Amps at 194 Volts,
and 1 hour after shut off the voltage had dropped to 170.5
Volts. After 6 hours it was down to 165.0 Volts. After 12 hours it
was 164.5 Volts and after 24 hours it was 164 Volts.
So, can anyone tell me what they see in this? Does this look like
chronic under charging? Is my constant on DC/DC and the load from
driving the laptop for data logging distorting the results?
What am I doing wrong?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com<http://evalbum.com/>
My Electric Car at:
http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda<http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda>
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org<http://maeaa.org/>
Join the EV List at:
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html>
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
