EV Digest 6147
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Why NIMH? Re: Patent revocation for public good
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Circuit board protection
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Why NIMH? Re: Patent revocation for public good
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Simple Isolation Question
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: solectria bc 3300 charger repair
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Water heaters
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: GE LXT Meter
by Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Simple Isolation Question
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Transmission vs no transmission
by Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Why NIMH? Re: Patent revocation for public good
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) ACRX damage
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Simple Isolation Question
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Why NIMH? Re: Patent revocation for public good
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Patent revocation for public good
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) unsubscribe
by "Paul Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Why NIMH? Re: Patent revocation for public good
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Simple Isolation Question
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Ultracapacitors: Is 1,500 Volts enough?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Why NIMH? Re: Patent revocation for public good
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Simple Isolation Question
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry, which Lithium batteries are you using for your car?
jerryd wrote:
Hi Lee and All,
Good points Lee. But I wonder why we
should care about NiMH batts as they never will be a useful
EV battery!!
Why is they are too expensive from their
material costs which won't change, they are barely better
than Ni-cads!! Nicads are almost as good and cost 1/4 NiMH
price!
Any batt with a cell voltage of 1.2vdc
which requires many more cells added to it's needed high
materials, BMS prices mean NiMH will never be practical
compared to Li-ions, ect batts with a 3.7vpc and many times
less expensive materials. The higher cell voltage of 2.12vpc
is why Lead batts are still the leader in batts.
I seem to remember Texaco/Chevron put
their NiMH batts up for sale as they still are I think but
no one bought any because of their nessasarily rediculessly
high prices. Any of you EVer's want to buy any at those
prices? I won't.
We should concentrate on getting better
Li-ion, Li-poly, ect batteries which have many times more
promise to cost effectively power EV's.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Patent revocation for public good
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 22:02:19 -0600
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What do people think about the idea that patent law
should be modified so that patents can not only be
revoked if issued in error or if prior invention was
proved but also if the patent is being used by a
competitive player solely to ensure the technology is NOT
developed or deployed.
This is already a part of patent law, although it is
awkward and difficult to do in practice.
If you have a patent, and someone violates your patent,
your legal remedy is to sue them for damages. It's not
uncommon for a court to award you treble damages if you
can show that the violation was deliberate.
But... if you have been doing NOTHING with the patent
except sitting on it, you will have a difficult time
convincing a judge that you have suffered any damages.
Therefore, you might win the case... but be awarded $1 as
compensation. The patent infringer has to cease using the
patented idea; but he gets to keep all his profits up to
that point.
At least, that's how it worked in the past. But nowdays,
you will hire sharp lawyers to argue that you were
spending a fortune on R&D to develop the patent, or were
engaged in expensive negotiations to sell or license the
patent to someone; and thanks to the infringer, all your
precious money is lost. You can invent millions of dollars
of "losses" for these efforts, even though you never
produced anything.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
Is it a good idea to somehow protect any circuit boards which are
underhood (or in-dash)?
The automotive environment is a very difficult one for electronics. You
have temperature extremes, water, bugs, dirt, salt, shock and vibration.
There is a very high electrical noise level on the 12v system, and
even worse noise on an EV's propulsion system. And, you expect it to
keep working for 10 years or more, with no maintenance at all.
If you don't protect the circuit boards, you have an almost zero chance
that they will survive.
All of the underhood electronics in my car will be inside a box (made
of polycarbonate sheet) but there still might be some condensation
because it won't be perfectly sealed. I also live in a place where
they use a lot of road salt and it gets everywhere.
"Might" be condensation? I would say it is a certainty!
Study how the auto companies package their electronics. Anything outside
the passenger compartment is totally sealed and waterproof. They rarely
rely on gaskets; it is usually potted.
Electronics that are inside the cabin (radio, etc.) are less well
sealed. They rely on three things: a) it is a lot cleaner and drier
inside, b) it is all low voltage, low power circuitry, and c) it doesn't
stop the car if it breaks down (they don't care if it fails)! :-) Even
so, they generally have some limited amount of conformal coating on the
boards (the cheapest they can get).
Especially since there will be pack voltages on some boards, it seems
like some kind of protection might be a good idea.
I'd say it is vital. The higher the voltage, the worse the problem with
leakage currents due to moisture or contamination on the board.
What does eveyone use ( if anything)? I notice that Jameco sells a
spray urethane "conformal coating".
Acrylics are the cheapest. They are so thin that you can hardly tell
they are there, and only add a little protection. Acrylics bond weakly,
and so are easily scratched off.
Urethanes are better; they bond tighter, go on thicker, and resist
moisture penetration better. But they still only *slow* moisture
penetration; they don't stop it.
Epoxies are used when you want a very strong, thick coating that is
essentially impervious to water penetration. Besides cost, the other
disadvantage is that they are almost impossible to remove for repairs.
Silicones are soft thick rubbery coatings. They have good moisture
resistance, and can be peeled off if repairs are needed. But you can't
use them around electrical contacts (switches, connectors, relays, etc.)
because material from the silicone migrates into contacts and cause
contact failures. Silicones are also mechanically weak, and tend to be
cloudy or opaque.
Potting compounds are similar to the above conformal coatings, but with
fillers added so it costs less or to improve heat conductivity, etc.
Fillers can be metal dust, metal oxides, talc, gypsum, silica (sand), etc.
I assume you would just spray the copper side, and not the component
side (for single-sided boards), right?
It depends on what you are trying to achieve. The idea of a conformal
coating is to increase the over-the-surface spacing between electrically
"live" points. Some parts, like a thru-hole resistor, already have
0.250" or more space between the leads. Others, like an integrated
circuit, might have 0.050". Depending on your PC board layout, it may
have spacings of 0.010".
You decide how much spacing you can tolerate (which depends on the
voltage between points, and how sensitive the circuit is to leakage
between them, and how bad the environment will be). Then coat whatever
places on the board will have less spacing. This might be only a few key
spots, or the whole bottom of the PC board, or the both sides of the board.
Safety agencies have specifications for how much spacing is considered
"safe". For example, at 30-250v, they want 4mm between "live" circuitry,
and 8mm between "live" circuitry and anything a person can touch
(exposed connector pins, etc.)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerryd wrote:
I wonder why we should care about NiMH batts as they never will be
a useful EV battery!
Well, the Toyota Prius and Honda hybrids use nimh; they have
demonstrated an acceptable cost, life, and performance in hundreds of
thousands of vehicles, over untold millions of miles of usage in the
hands of ordinary drivers.
The recent GM EV1 and S10 EVs used nimh, and again they demonstrated
more than twice the range of lead-acids, and much longer life.
They are too expensive from their material costs which won't change
You pay the material cost when you buy the battery; you get it back when
you recycle it. The way metal prices are going, the scrap price of the
pack could be considerable! So the money is not "lost"; just invested.
And, nimh batteries can last a long time. 100,000 miles and more has
been demonstrated.
they are barely better than Ni-cads!
True; nimh is perhaps 50% better. But paranoia about cadmium has made
nicads virtually a dead end for the future.
Nicads are almost as good and cost 1/4 NiMH price!
Except that the higher price of nimh is largely a fiction of the patent
licensing situation. That will end when the patents expire.
BMS prices mean NiMH will never be practical compared to Li-ions
Except that BMS requirements for nimh are pretty mild. They generally
only monitor every 6 cells or so. With lithiums, you have to
aggressively monitor every single cell.
The higher cell voltage of 2.12vpc is why lead batts are still the leader
No; it's cost, cost, and cost. Lead acids are the cheapest, and that
trumps everything else.
We should concentrate on getting better Li-ion Li-poly batteries
which have many times more promise to cost effectively power EV's.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I'd rather concentrate on
batteries that work, right now, today, for EVs. That means lead-acid,
nicad, nimh, and THEN lithiums.
Lithiums hold a lot of promise, but so far haven't delivered. They have
high energy per pound, but short life. Cost is very high. A BMS is
required, and expensive. There are safety issues.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
One of the easiest and cheapest ways to get Emeter
(or other instumentation) DC with guaranteed isolation
is to look for an old laptop power brick.
Usually they are multi-voltage (90V - 265V AC) and they
have plenty of power - you will be loading it lightly.
Since it usually continues to work when the laptop dies,
they are plentiful and therefor cheap.
You want to have an output between 12V and the max your
meter can sustain, I think that's 30V.
This means that virtually all laptop supplies will work,
but take care to make sure it's multi-voltage so it will
work on a wide range of DC pack voltages, likely from
108V nominal up to the highest packs of 312V DC.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 8:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Simple Isolation Question
--- Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Transformer won't work with DC.
>
That's that whole wire moving through a field to induce a current thing. So
to get isolation (in
DC), I still need a simple 12v to 12v dc-dc?
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for comments David.
Solectria use to sell BRUSA NLG4 chargers with "Solectria" label
affixed to them, but no longer. Reasons are not technical and
not really relevant at this point.
Azure does not make their own chargers. As David pointed out, BRUSA
NLG5 series (NLG511-SA in your case) with special adapter cable
which makes new NLG5 electrically look like NLG4 for the rest of the
vehicle is your option, sort of "Plug and play" Solectria Force charger.
Yes, not cheap (and NLG4's were not cheap either), but you get what
you've paid for.
Adapter cable is the circuit re-scrambling and inverting some
signals to mimic NLG4 interface. I may publish the schematic
of it (with BRUSA'a permission).
Yes, you can reprogram from your PC every aspect of how NLG5
charges. It has facility to hold multiple charging profiles
so once in a while you can execute "maintenance" or other
profile - you need a flip a switch on the dash, and logic
input signal is part of the conditions directing charger to
run different profile. Building profiles is wizard driven and
trivial - you just need to know precisely what do you want
the charger to do.
Id you buy the charger from MME, I will program it for you
at no charge.
Victor
David Roden wrote:
On 17 Nov 2006 at 7:54, Electro Automotive wrote:
should i buy
a replacement from electro auto. shari from electro auto you are
excluded from answering this one.lol mike y
Sorry, I have to check in here. I can sell you a charger, but not a
Solectria/Azure Dynamics charger. Those are no longer availablE.
The closest replacement for your Solectria BC3300 (Brusa NLG4) will probably
be a Brusa NLG5 range charger from Metric Mind. Most likely your car will
use an NLG511-TA. I believe Victor stocks these or can get them quickly,
but I'll let him address that matter.
http://www.metricmind.com/charger.htm
Victor's price list says $3,338 for this charger. They're far from cheap!
However, they're fine quality, highly efficient, Swiss made devices, sort of
the Lotus of the EV charger world. They're controlled by a fairly
sophisticated microprocessor, with a dizzing array of parameters. You can
either use a canned charge profile from MM or Brusa, or (if you're brave)
configure the charge controller as you wish. Unlike most micro controlled
chargers, which can only be set up by a dealer or the factory, every setting
is user-accessible with their software and a PC.
No, this is not an ad! I have the earlier version of this charger
(equivalent to your old one) and really like the flexibility and
programmability.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
It does not look like you read the previous post through.
Hi, Randy
You wrote that he felt the heat, " even with the heat switch turned off".
That means that the heat was escaping through the vents ( and, would do
that, to a lesser extent, even with the blower off). That would keep the
temperature at the heating element down.
In some cars ( like mine) if the heat switch is off , the heating element is
completely sealed in its compartment, with no air flow at all ( there are
flaps that seal it off). So, you would not feel any heat coming out of
the vents unless you turned the temperature control to "heat" - even if the
blower was on.
I'm assuming your customer didn't do that ( in the summer) so his system
must allow air flow throught the heater element even with the heat switch
off.
My concern was that, in cars with the heater setup like mine, the
temperature could build up in that closed volume and cause a problem.
Phil
The truck had power to the heating element 24/7 for a couple of months.
The driver felt the heat when they turned the blower on one day just to get
some airflow, at that point they called me and I replaced the contactor for
the heater.
I know this is just one isolated incident but I think the fact that we have
not heard of of any fires out of the 800 we have sold speaks well of there
durability.
BFN
Randy
From: canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Water heaters
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 14:57:10 -0800
Have you had this experience?
We have now sold over 800 of those ceramic heaters and never heard of
anyone having a problem? Apparently I'm always the last the hear.
I had a fleet customer with a Nissan pick up a few years (12 years) ago
that had a defective heater relay and was welded closed for a few months
in the summer before the customer noticed the extra warm air coming out
of the vents even with the "heat" switch turned off.
It had done no damage to any of the duct or the element and that truck is
still in his fleet with the same heater.
The old Nicrom wire heaters (hair dryers) would just get hotter and
hotter with no air flow until something burned up but the ceramic's will
heat up to a certain temp and then start to reduce current draw if there
is no airflow.
I just went out and checked on my Neon.
It draws about 17 amps at 144 volts. As soon as you turn the fan off the
current drops to about 5 amps in the first minute and down to about 2.5
amps in the second minute.
With about 350 watts of heat you should not be causing anything to catch
fire?
350 watts is more than enough to melt or burn things if there is no
external airflow to take away the heat. Have you tried leaving the heater
on (with no air flow) for an hour? Any damage or fire then?
Let us know what happens.
Phil
--
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View Athletes Collections with Live Search
http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rod,
We appreciate your quick reply. We have this type of meter installed in
a project car and we also received an inquiry because we had the meter
type listed on our web site project car list of parts. I don't know the
exact type of our meter as the project car is locked up at the moment.
I will cc your response to our inquirer
The project car project is being revitalized and if it's alright with
you. we will contact you later as we get into the car and get to know
more about the meter
Thanks for your help.
Peter.
Rod Hower wrote:
What type of information do you need?
I have error codes for various controls (GE used this
same meter for many different controls including
series, sepex, MOSFET, IGBT and SCR, so the error
codes vary according to the control type).
I also have the pinouts for some of these controls.
Also, are you looking for info on the round display
meter or the handset that can program the control
card?
Rod
--- Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does any one have any information on the above
meter?
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One of the easiest and cheapest ways to get Emeter
> (or other instumentation) DC with guaranteed isolation
> is to look for an old laptop power brick.
> Usually they are multi-voltage (90V - 265V AC) and they
> have plenty of power - you will be loading it lightly.
Right now I have a Vicor module connected to the pack supplying 12 volts for
the eMeter. Generally
this arrangement is Ok, but I'm trying to work it differently and that's why
I've been asking
about isolation from the house battery. The problem is that my pack sometimes
dips below the low
end of the Vicor unit and the eMeter loses power. I will be adding more cells
and the voltage
should stay more in the Vicor range, but I wanted to see how I could work it
from the house
battery perspective.
I didn't want to leave a parasitic load like the Vicor (or any other power
supply) on the traction
pack all the time. The 12v house battery should ensure that the eMeter always
has power. I'll keep
the 12 volt battery charged with a dc-dc while the car is running and
disconnect the dc-dc from
the traction psck during charging.
So, I'm looking for a way to provide isolated 12 volts to my eMeter, from the
cars 12 volt
battery, without leaving a load on the traction pack around the clock.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone ever compared their max. ranges under these 2
conditions...keeping the route, wind, and outside temperature the same
with a mix of city & highway miles...say 50/50 and keep the braking
pattern the same:
#1) Drive using all forward gears in sequence while applying maximum
acceleration to attain maximum speed in each gear up to the posted
speed limit. What would be your max range = X miles.
#2) Leave in the one gear which allows for you to attain the same top
driving speed as above, using the same route as above and apply maximum
acceleration up to each posted speed limit. What would be your max
range = X miles.
It would be interesting to compare the driving experiences and range
performances between these two tests...one using the torque
multiplication of the transmission and the other, not.
My bet is that by using all the transmission gears your range will be much
higher and your acceleration much swifter; for an overall happier
experience.
Tim
P.S. Sure there are other minor factors that come into play but these
would never make up the differences between the two results.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Nov 2006 at 4:47, jerryd wrote:
> Nicads are almost as good and cost 1/4 NiMH
> price!
Nicads are indeed a very good EV battery, but that's probably a dead end.
I've read that the world supply of cadmium is not sufficient to build a
whole fleet of EVs even 10% of the ICE fleet, so it is limited and cost
would go up radically as the supply tightened. Also, cadmium is a highly
toxic heavy metal and is tightly regulated by the EU, so EVs with nicads
will probably eventually be banned there.
Even if not banned, cadmium is a big negative for the environmental aspect.
Whether you consider this an issue is not the point. Even if you don't, you
have to admit that nicad has a serious PR problem.
NiMH is like nicad without the poison, so it is useful from that standpoint.
But you are right that lithium will blast past them both. Cost will
continue to come down on lithium, and I think that is the future of EVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thursday I was involved in an accident in ACRX.
It was actually nasty accident of two cars in front of me -
what looked like mid size black Pontiac ran at about
50mph into a driver door of smaller red car (I think
Saturn or such). I was following this read one at
about 60 feet distance, and when Pontiac hit it, it
was thrown backward (right toward me) and turned across
the road. I was could not avoid the collision into
it a second after it was ruined by the Pontiac.
In about 5 min all the police, fire fighter trucks, sirens,
ambulances, flashing lights, all that jazz. But, no
explosions, fires or any spectacular effects. Just loud
bang, broken glass, leaking antifreeze and scattered debris
of metal scrap all over.
Both are totaled. No fatalities I think,
but there was half of that Pontiac left - the front
part up to the wind shield was missing. Either on the
road, or inside the cabin. Driver did not have insurance.
Lady in Saturn sitting in front of deployed air bag kept
asking "what had happened to me" - she could not think
straight, cried and could not comprehend policeman's
questions. I haven't seen Pontiac's driver at all.
I was driving with my 9 year old daughter. I walked away with
just broken finger and lost glasses; and she only got scared,
not a single scratch.
For those familiar with Portland OR, it happened on intersection
of Foster and 58th street, around 5pm.
ACRX's damage will need to be assessed. By that it looks from
outside, it's not much front bumper, hood and head light.
All electrical systems work, inverter starts and motor
runs, no problem. But, engaged in gear, the car does not move.
Like there is no half shafts.
We towed her home using hard linkage, and on turns front wheels
did not follow the towing vehicle - they kept turn outwards
and scrub. So I had to sit in and steer. Apparently front suspension
geometry is off and perhaps bent. My suspicion is the motor/tranny
got shifted from the impact and one half-shaft may have popped out.
Left side is sitting so low that almost scrub the road and I can't
see much underneath without jacking it up.
It is likely restorable, but I'll have to decide if it worth the effort.
The AC drive, battery and all the guts can be transplanted into a new
donor, but everyone knows
how much effort it is to start from scratch. I suspect entire front
has to be straightened and mechanical components replaced, likely
at my cost. When I'm done, I'll still have cool but now 15 years old
CRX with no airbags. Something to think about.
I consider myself very lucky - if that Pontiac would hit ACRX as it did
Saturn 60 feet in front of me, may be I wouldn't be alive - '95 model
is not equipped with airbags. No matter how defensively you drive, there
can always be someone running into you - something about impossible
to be prepared for.
Anyway, when I can hold tools again, I'll report more on ACRX's
condition and post photos on my site. Be careful out there...
Typing with one hand Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can use the DC/DC that the NMG or Sparrow uses for
isolation of the Emeter 12V power supply
http://www.coselusa.com/pdf/product/SFE_ZUS.pdf
or
http://www.coselusa.com/product.asp?Id=148
Rod
--- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, Don -
>
> Can you supply more info about these?
>
> For example, does Digi-key sell these? Or Jameco or
> Mouser? Do you have a
> part number?
>
> I need isolated power for my home-brew voltage and
> current instrumentation (
> not for an e-meter).
>
> The only isolated DC-DC converters I've been able to
> find are single-IC
> devices for about $8, and, according to Lee, these
> generally have poor
> isolation. I would gladly buy something for $20 if
> it would reliably do the
> job.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Phil
>
>
> >From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: RE: Simple Isolation Question
> >Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:17:51 -0800
> >
> >The transformer will not work with DC. You can get
> a small, inexpensive
> >DC-DC converter that will isolate the EMeter. The
> units are about 3/4"
> >square and cost about $20. As at your local
> electronics shop.
> >
> >
> >Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> >see the New Beetle EV project
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> >Behalf Of Dave Cover
> >Sent: November 18, 2006 7:08 AM
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Simple Isolation Question
> >
> >I have a simple question about isolating my eMeter.
> I want to run the
> >eMeter
> >off the house battery and want to avoid letting the
> smoke out. Is it as
> >simple as putting a small transformer between the
> battery and the eMeter?
> >No
> >stepping up or down of the voltage, just isolation.
> The eMeter is the only
> >thing running off this transformer. I'll have a
> dc-dc providing a charge
> >from the pack to the house battery, and that is
> isolated too.
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Dave Cover
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I had stock in a company that mines lithium, in Chili I think, prices
were going up, I sold it and haven't looked back. Of course, nickel is
used for stainless steel and is very much in demand, prices have gone
way up (400% in 4 years) If anything Nickel prices might come down just
from having rocketed up so much recently.
I would not bet on Lithium battery prices going down too much,
they are still in high demand (not for EVs) even at high prices for
portable electronics.
That foam-lead battery from the CAT spin-off looked very promising for
the near term, if you can cut weight in half with same capacity and same
price, that will be big boon for EVs.
But NiMH batteries are available TODAY at reasonable cost, I've gone
through the numbers on the list multiple times.
Jack
David Roden wrote:
On 18 Nov 2006 at 4:47, jerryd wrote:
Nicads are almost as good and cost 1/4 NiMH
price!
Nicads are indeed a very good EV battery, but that's probably a dead end.
I've read that the world supply of cadmium is not sufficient to build a
whole fleet of EVs even 10% of the ICE fleet, so it is limited and cost
would go up radically as the supply tightened. Also, cadmium is a highly
toxic heavy metal and is tightly regulated by the EU, so EVs with nicads
will probably eventually be banned there.
Even if not banned, cadmium is a big negative for the environmental aspect.
Whether you consider this an issue is not the point. Even if you don't, you
have to admit that nicad has a serious PR problem.
NiMH is like nicad without the poison, so it is useful from that standpoint.
But you are right that lithium will blast past them both. Cost will
continue to come down on lithium, and I think that is the future of EVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 11/17/06, Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So, no, NiMH can't be used for EV's. Period.
I had to jump in now. Are you saying our Nimh powered Sparrow that
has been running since Jan is not real? Many on this list have seen
it in person. We now have 3 Nimh powered Sparrows on the road.
See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
Yes, you cannot parallel Nimh cells without a management system. But,
wait, we have a mangement system!
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
unsubscribe, too much email
Subject: RE: EV Suppliers - A View From The Other Side
I apologize to anyone who has been frustrated by delays in
service. For what it's worth, I am also frustrated that I am not able to
respond as promptly as I would like. From the things I hear from other EV
suppliers, we are all putting in very busy hours and long days. Here's a
little context:
Although Electro Automotive started in 1979, it wasn't until the mid-90s
that there was enough demand for it to be a full time, self-supporting,
quit-your-day-job business, but even then not enough to support actual
employees. The gas prices of 2005 created a phenomenal surge of interest,
and it has continued to grow. But as sales - and cash flow - increase in a
linear fashion, inquiries and workload increase geometrically. The workload
is increasing faster than the cash flow to hire employees to handle it. And
much of what we do cannot be easily delegated. Mike is the only one doing
design work here. We had been grooming a young man to take over much of the
CADD work, but just as we were looking forward to getting some serious
production out of him, some computer company offered him $50k/year. We
can't compete with that. Phones and email (about 50 a
day) require an information base that Mike and I can tap instantly from 20+
years of living it day and night. You can't just drop someone in front of
the phone and have them take that over. I am going to attempt to train
someone to handle some of the easier communications, but even that will take
considerable time - which is exactly what I am short of. We have been
through more than half a dozen employees in the past year, trying to find
ones with the aptitutde for the job that we can afford to hire. Then there's
parts that have always been available next day which suddenly are
backordered for weeks. Or out of production. Or altered, requiring
redesign for our kits. Then there's the customer
whose donor car has been messed with by a previous owner, and doesn't
really have the transmission he thinks it has. Or the car manufacturer who
changed flywheels for just two months of one production year. Or the
supplier who ships the wrong parts. Or UPS that damages or loses them. Or
the "simple little redesign" that turns out to be a major project, with all
sorts of hidden complications. Etc.
In short, we are working diligently to try to meet everyone's needs, and
also trying to improve our processes and hire and train people to make
things flow more smoothly and efficienly. But it's sort of like trying to
re-tune a gas car for better performance while driving it at 90 mph.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I went back and checked, it was Sociedad Quimica y Minera de Chile
(Chemical & Mining Co. of Chile) Inc. (SQM), its stock price has gone
from $20 to $125 in 4 years, just in case anyone was wondering.
Jack Murray wrote:
I had stock in a company that mines lithium, in Chili I think, prices
were going up, I sold it and haven't looked back. Of course, nickel is
used for stainless steel and is very much in demand, prices have gone
way up (400% in 4 years) If anything Nickel prices might come down just
from having rocketed up so much recently.
I would not bet on Lithium battery prices going down too much,
they are still in high demand (not for EVs) even at high prices for
portable electronics.
That foam-lead battery from the CAT spin-off looked very promising for
the near term, if you can cut weight in half with same capacity and same
price, that will be big boon for EVs.
But NiMH batteries are available TODAY at reasonable cost, I've gone
through the numbers on the list multiple times.
Jack
David Roden wrote:
On 18 Nov 2006 at 4:47, jerryd wrote:
Nicads are almost as good and cost 1/4 NiMH
price!
Nicads are indeed a very good EV battery, but that's probably a dead
end. I've read that the world supply of cadmium is not sufficient to
build a whole fleet of EVs even 10% of the ICE fleet, so it is limited
and cost would go up radically as the supply tightened. Also, cadmium
is a highly toxic heavy metal and is tightly regulated by the EU, so
EVs with nicads will probably eventually be banned there.
Even if not banned, cadmium is a big negative for the environmental
aspect. Whether you consider this an issue is not the point. Even if
you don't, you have to admit that nicad has a serious PR problem.
NiMH is like nicad without the poison, so it is useful from that
standpoint. But you are right that lithium will blast past them
both. Cost will continue to come down on lithium, and I think that is
the future of EVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
In the end there is very little difference, as the power
to recharge the house battery is coming from the pack anyway.
Lee pointed out many times that the small/cheap DC/DC
converters for 12V-12V do not have much isolation, so the
risk is that they fail and you have your pack's neg lead
grounded to chassis through the Emeter.
There may be good 12V DC/DC but they likely are expensive.
Why would you want to avoid the DC/DC on the pack and
why are you disconnecting it during charging, I do not
understand.
If it's for high voltage - that's why I suggested the
multi-voltage laptop supply. It will continue to work up
to about 400V so charging should not be a problem.
When the load is light, I would guesstimate the power
draw by the brick around 20 mA, lower than the self-
discharge of the batteries.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 1:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Simple Isolation Question
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One of the easiest and cheapest ways to get Emeter
> (or other instumentation) DC with guaranteed isolation
> is to look for an old laptop power brick.
> Usually they are multi-voltage (90V - 265V AC) and they
> have plenty of power - you will be loading it lightly.
Right now I have a Vicor module connected to the pack supplying 12 volts for
the eMeter. Generally
this arrangement is Ok, but I'm trying to work it differently and that's why
I've been asking
about isolation from the house battery. The problem is that my pack
sometimes dips below the low
end of the Vicor unit and the eMeter loses power. I will be adding more
cells and the voltage
should stay more in the Vicor range, but I wanted to see how I could work it
from the house
battery perspective.
I didn't want to leave a parasitic load like the Vicor (or any other power
supply) on the traction
pack all the time. The 12v house battery should ensure that the eMeter
always has power. I'll keep
the 12 volt battery charged with a dc-dc while the car is running and
disconnect the dc-dc from
the traction psck during charging.
So, I'm looking for a way to provide isolated 12 volts to my eMeter, from
the cars 12 volt
battery, without leaving a load on the traction pack around the clock.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are these of any use?
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/news-events/release.asp?PRID=226
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart Sez,
You pay the material cost when you buy the battery; you get it back when
you recycle it. The way metal prices are going, the scrap price of the
pack could be considerable! So the money is not "lost"; just invested.
SO-
Where can lead acid batteries get recycled? I'm looking for someone who will
pay me for 1000 pounds of batteries. I keep hearing the price of lead is high.
Scrap batteries ought to have some value.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lee pointed out many times that the small/cheap
> DC/DC
> converters for 12V-12V do not have much isolation,
> so the
> risk is that they fail and you have your pack's neg
> lead
> grounded to chassis through the Emeter.
If this DC/DC is fused, what's the problem.
Furthermore, has anybody seen this failure mode?.
I've been on the list since 1996 and have never seen a
failure on a DC/DC that has caused major problems.
Not saying it can't happen, but it seems like a minor
risk.
I have done independent contract engineering work for
Myers Motors and have never seen a problem with the
ZUS31212 DC/DC converter that provides isolated power
for the emeter from the main 13.8Vdc supply.
Just my 2 isolated watts worth....
Rod
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> In the end there is very little difference, as the
> power
> to recharge the house battery is coming from the
> pack anyway.
>
> Lee pointed out many times that the small/cheap
> DC/DC
> converters for 12V-12V do not have much isolation,
> so the
> risk is that they fail and you have your pack's neg
> lead
> grounded to chassis through the Emeter.
>
> There may be good 12V DC/DC but they likely are
> expensive.
> Why would you want to avoid the DC/DC on the pack
> and
> why are you disconnecting it during charging, I do
> not
> understand.
>
> If it's for high voltage - that's why I suggested
> the
> multi-voltage laptop supply. It will continue to
> work up
> to about 400V so charging should not be a problem.
> When the load is light, I would guesstimate the
> power
> draw by the brick around 20 mA, lower than the self-
> discharge of the batteries.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Dave Cover
> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 1:04 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Simple Isolation Question
>
>
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > One of the easiest and cheapest ways to get Emeter
> > (or other instumentation) DC with guaranteed
> isolation
> > is to look for an old laptop power brick.
> > Usually they are multi-voltage (90V - 265V AC) and
> they
> > have plenty of power - you will be loading it
> lightly.
>
> Right now I have a Vicor module connected to the
> pack supplying 12 volts for
> the eMeter. Generally
> this arrangement is Ok, but I'm trying to work it
> differently and that's why
> I've been asking
> about isolation from the house battery. The problem
> is that my pack
> sometimes dips below the low
> end of the Vicor unit and the eMeter loses power. I
> will be adding more
> cells and the voltage
> should stay more in the Vicor range, but I wanted to
> see how I could work it
> from the house
> battery perspective.
>
> I didn't want to leave a parasitic load like the
> Vicor (or any other power
> supply) on the traction
> pack all the time. The 12v house battery should
> ensure that the eMeter
> always has power. I'll keep
> the 12 volt battery charged with a dc-dc while the
> car is running and
> disconnect the dc-dc from
> the traction psck during charging.
>
> So, I'm looking for a way to provide isolated 12
> volts to my eMeter, from
> the cars 12 volt
> battery, without leaving a load on the traction pack
> around the clock.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
--- End Message ---
