EV Digest 6148
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Was: Patent revocation, Now: Myers Motors Qui Moto
by Jay Snable <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV digest 6147
by Mike Swift <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Was: Patent revocation, Now: Myers Motors Qui Moto
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Batteries
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Batteries
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Eliminate Reversing Contactors
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ACRX damage
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: US 8V-GC or Trojan T-875
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Transmission vs no transmission
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Transmission vs no transmission
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Simple Isolation Question
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Simple Isolation Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Simple Isolation Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Why NIMH? Re: Patent revocation for public good
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Eliminate Reversing Contactors
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Simple Isolation Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Test... Test... Test....
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: ACRX damage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Why NIMH? Re: Patent revocation for public good
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW- Misinformation?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Simple Isolation Question
by "Chet Neeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Patent revocation, Now: Myers Motors Qui Moto
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ed,
Your post led me to revisit the AIR Lab site, then Myers. What the
heck is the Qui Moto?! I knew they were working on a next generation
but I haven't seen any mention until I stumbled upon this:
http://www.myersmotors.com/Poster4.htm
Jay
On Nov 18, 2006, at 4:41 PM, Edward Ang wrote:
On 11/17/06, Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So, no, NiMH can't be used for EV's. Period.
I had to jump in now. Are you saying our Nimh powered Sparrow that
has been running since Jan is not real? Many on this list have seen
it in person. We now have 3 Nimh powered Sparrows on the road.
See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
Yes, you cannot parallel Nimh cells without a management system. But,
wait, we have a mangement system!
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just want to clarify the mis-infomation circling in the recent posts
here. We have designed and tested management system for using Nimh
cells in parallel. It works and it is currently being used on the
road everyday. It is called the GAIA I.
See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
You CANNOT use Nimh cells in parallel without a management system.
AND, WE HAVE DEVELOPED SUCH A SYSTEM. SO, STOP SAYING IT IS NOT
POSSIBLE TO USE SMALL NIMH CELLS IN EV'S UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE YOUR
HOMEWORK!
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How much would a system at 120 volts for a vw sized vehicle cost
including bateries and is it available today?
How long will a pack like this last?
Bill
Edward Ang wrote:
I just want to clarify the mis-infomation circling in the recent posts
here. We have designed and tested management system for using Nimh
cells in parallel. It works and it is currently being used on the
road everyday. It is called the GAIA I.
See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
You CANNOT use Nimh cells in parallel without a management system.
AND, WE HAVE DEVELOPED SUCH A SYSTEM. SO, STOP SAYING IT IS NOT
POSSIBLE TO USE SMALL NIMH CELLS IN EV'S UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE YOUR
HOMEWORK!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think that if you look at their web site that while these ultra-
capacitors can supply very high power densities the energy density is
only 3.2 Wh/kg. A posable drag car battery, but not viable for any
range. Another thing about ultra-capacitors is for energy storage
they make Li-ion look real inexpensive.
On Nov 18, 2006, at 6:11 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: November 18, 2006 12:38:42 PM PST
To: EVDL <[email protected]>
Subject: Ultracapacitors: Is 1,500 Volts enough?
Are these of any use?
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/news-events/release.asp?
PRID=226
Mike Swift
Two things only the people anxiously desire, bread and circuses.
Decimus Junius Juvenalls
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11/18/06, Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How much would a system at 120 volts for a vw sized vehicle cost
including bateries and is it available today?
Depending on volume.
How long will a pack like this last?
Much longer than the lead acid. Definitely longer shelf life and
safer than the LiIon. We are testing cycle life in the real world
condition at this moment.
Bill
Edward Ang wrote:
> I just want to clarify the mis-infomation circling in the recent posts
> here. We have designed and tested management system for using Nimh
> cells in parallel. It works and it is currently being used on the
> road everyday. It is called the GAIA I.
>
> See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
>
> You CANNOT use Nimh cells in parallel without a management system.
> AND, WE HAVE DEVELOPED SUCH A SYSTEM. SO, STOP SAYING IT IS NOT
> POSSIBLE TO USE SMALL NIMH CELLS IN EV'S UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE YOUR
> HOMEWORK!
>
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Qui Moto is a concept vehicle, a 2-seater tandem sitting. It is now
at the San Francisco Auto Show. In fact, I was just there this
afternoon.
On 11/18/06, Jay Snable <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Ed,
Your post led me to revisit the AIR Lab site, then Myers. What the
heck is the Qui Moto?! I knew they were working on a next generation
but I haven't seen any mention until I stumbled upon this:
http://www.myersmotors.com/Poster4.htm
Jay
On Nov 18, 2006, at 4:41 PM, Edward Ang wrote:
> On 11/17/06, Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> So, no, NiMH can't be used for EV's. Period.
>
> I had to jump in now. Are you saying our Nimh powered Sparrow that
> has been running since Jan is not real? Many on this list have seen
> it in person. We now have 3 Nimh powered Sparrows on the road.
>
> See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
>
> Yes, you cannot parallel Nimh cells without a management system. But,
> wait, we have a mangement system!
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> President
> AIR Lab Corp
>
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
I'd love to see the spreadsheet, but I sure won't join google... why don't you
put it up at http://www.evforge.net/news.php
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
ditto. i do not like google's viral marketing scheme's...
let's us know if you get it up on evforge!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or just make it a plain text file.
Mike Sandman wrote:
Rush wrote:
I'd love to see the spreadsheet, but I sure won't join google... why
don't you put it up at http://www.evforge.net/news.php
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
ditto. i do not like google's viral marketing scheme's...
let's us know if you get it up on evforge!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As discussed before the Optima isn't really 45Ah because at 1C rate and
50% DOD to get 500 cycle life, it is more like 24Ah useable capacity.
The IB D-Cell 9Ah can do 100% DOD at 1C rate with 700 cycle life. So a
more direct comparison is a 30 cell pack (27Ah) at 13lbs (cells only,
add wt for housing,etc), that looks like 1/3 the weight of the Optima.
At $6 per 9Ah D-cell, a 30-cell 12v 27Ah pack is $180,
If you add BMS costs of $50 per 12v pack, you have $230 per 12v pack.
For a car that uses 10 Optimas for 120v the NiMH would then be $2300,
and weigh 1/3 less.
Seems very reasonable to me.
Is it available today? Are their buyers available today?
I think most don't compare to a Optima Yellow Top, they compare to a
T-105 6v 100Ah (C/1) flooded golf-cart battery at $100 ea, you buy 20
for 120v at $2,000, and get 2-3 times the range for less money. But it
weighs 1200lbs and can't output much current to accelerate all the
weight, takes up lots of space and mounting, has a lot of cabling,
outputs fumes and corrosion, and requires regular watering. Cheap wins.
Jack
Bill & Nancy wrote:
How much would a system at 120 volts for a vw sized vehicle cost
including bateries and is it available today?
How long will a pack like this last?
Bill
Edward Ang wrote:
I just want to clarify the mis-infomation circling in the recent posts
here. We have designed and tested management system for using Nimh
cells in parallel. It works and it is currently being used on the
road everyday. It is called the GAIA I.
See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
You CANNOT use Nimh cells in parallel without a management system.
AND, WE HAVE DEVELOPED SUCH A SYSTEM. SO, STOP SAYING IT IS NOT
POSSIBLE TO USE SMALL NIMH CELLS IN EV'S UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE YOUR
HOMEWORK!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> I like it - a simple DPDT switch, the only issue would be
> when someone would throw it at load/speed.
This is a major issue, both for the manual DPDT and Father Time's
suggestion of 'beefing' up a GC reversing contactor set. Another issue
for both is that they need to carry full motor current.
> BTW, the fact that 4 contactors are used is also because
> there is no "systems" approach, but the controller
> manufacturer is optimizing the controller by itself,
> which always causes a sub-optimum in almost all applicatoins
> of the controller.
> Would he look at the non-transmission EVs as a system, the
> controller would have a bridge output and reverse by its
> electronics, or at least have a push-pull (for example all
> MOSFETs instead of switch and diode) output, which would
> reduce the nr of contactors from 4 to 2, which can then
> be replaced by one single pole that switches the other
> motor contact between +batt and -batt.
> (the first side of the motor is on the push-pull output).
Unfortunately, this is not possible with a series motor: it is
impossible to reverse the direction of rotation by reversing the
polarity of the power applied to the motor. The direction of rotation
can only be reversed by reversing the connections to either the field or
armature, but not both.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Nov 2006 at 21:42, Jack Murray wrote:
> For a car that uses 10 Optimas for 120v the NiMH would then be $2300,
> and weigh 1/3 less.
>
> Seems very reasonable to me.
>
Jack -
I could be misremembering, but I think I recall your writing about this
battery several times before, citing a number of potential advantages. Of
course the proof is in the building, and in fact I suspect a lot of us on
this list are very keen to see you build a car with this battery. I know I
am.
You would be a real pioneer. If you made a successful EV with this battery,
it could open up some very interesting options for people. It could also be
a business for you, should you choose to pursue it.
What's your progress so far? Are you working on a proof of concept, perhaps
a scooter or bike?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch, sorry to hear of the misfortune. I hope your hand heals quickly and
the car is easily repairable!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
OK my turn to be a downer. My truck used 120V worth of 8VGC batteries.
Max range to 80% DOD was about 35-40 miles. THe truck was extensively
lightened (custom built frame, etc.) and only weighed ~3200 lbs complete
with batteries, so it might be lighter than your finished bug.
The bug probly has better aerodynamics, but not hugely better. Bugs (old
or new) have pretty poor aerodynamics.
i believe my friction coef. is something like .38 which like you said,
not bad, but not great either. my weight will be higher, closer to
3700lbs. lucky i have flat terrain and very little start/stop driving
to work. i am very curious what my KW/mi will be at 55MPH.
The point of all of this is, I think your max range will be similar to
mine (35-40 miles). So your planned commute will run the pack down to
about 70% DoD on a daily basis. I doubt you'll even get 2 years out of
the pack, maybe not even one year before they can't make the 30 miles
anymore.
If so, that means you'll be spending a couple thousand dollars every year
or so on batteries.
Are you prepared for that?
i can't say i am prepared for anything, since i really have no idea what
to expect from the project. i can say that i am financially able to
absorb that cost if needed. also, my company is "open" to the idea of
me plugging in at work. so i maybe be able to top-off at work.
hopefully they'll let me. that should help my battery life a bit.
basically, i view this first go-round as research. what i tell my
friends is "if i can drive it around the block and not burst into
flames, i will consider the project a complete success."
thanks for the feedback!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think your assumptions would be the case for every low voltage cars like
mine. I wish i had a workable gearbox, i am stuck to one gear while in
motion cause my gearbox is stuffed and doesn't like changing to 2nd or 3rd,
only 4th woks well.
I believe i could get more range if i had a clutch and working gearshifts.
Less I2R losses even though its not that much comapred to the power output
of the controller.
Cheers
On 19/11/06, Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Has anyone ever compared their max. ranges under these 2
conditions...keeping the route, wind, and outside temperature the same
with a mix of city & highway miles...say 50/50 and keep the braking
pattern the same:
#1) Drive using all forward gears in sequence while applying maximum
acceleration to attain maximum speed in each gear up to the posted
speed limit. What would be your max range = X miles.
#2) Leave in the one gear which allows for you to attain the same top
driving speed as above, using the same route as above and apply maximum
acceleration up to each posted speed limit. What would be your max
range = X miles.
It would be interesting to compare the driving experiences and range
performances between these two tests...one using the torque
multiplication of the transmission and the other, not.
My bet is that by using all the transmission gears your range will be much
higher and your acceleration much swifter; for an overall happier
experience.
Tim
P.S. Sure there are other minor factors that come into play but these
would never make up the differences between the two results.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Tim wrote:
Has anyone ever compared their max. ranges under these 2
conditions...keeping the route, wind, and outside temperature the same
with a mix of city & highway miles...say 50/50 and keep the braking
pattern the same:
#1) Drive using all forward gears in sequence while applying maximum
acceleration to attain maximum speed in each gear up to the posted
speed limit. What would be your max range = X miles.
#2) Leave in the one gear which allows for you to attain the same top
driving speed as above, using the same route as above and apply maximum
acceleration up to each posted speed limit. What would be your max
range = X miles.
Yes...sort of. I did it years ago, but not for reasons concerning range.
I did it for reasons concerning acceleration.
It would be interesting to compare the driving experiences and range
performances between these two tests...one using the torque
multiplication of the transmission and the other, not. \
Been there, done that.
My bet is that by using all the transmission gears your range will be
much
higher and your acceleration much swifter; for an overall happier
experience.
On the issue of acceleration (if the vehicle isn't too heavy) you'd lose
that bet. When I installed the first prototype Godzilla in my little
Datsun 1200 sedan back in '97 with a strong pack of Optimas at 180V, an
ADC 9 inch motor, and a 5 speed tranny backed up by beefed up rear end,
the car was suddenly turned into an animal with insane acceleration. The
first three gears were almost useless as the car would blister the tires
and wildly fishtail. I tried 4th gear from a dead stop not using the
clutch and the tires still spun but in a more controlled fashion as the
car accelerated like crazy! The car was clearly quicker as a direct
drive (4th being 1 to 1 ratio) into the rear end than when using the 5
forward gears. After the 'experiment' I redesigned the car as a direct
drive transmission-less affair, and never looked back...having improved
acceleration and not breaking transmissions and or clutches anymore was
definitely a happier experience! Upgrading to a single 11 inch motor and
even higher voltages and currents continued the performance increase.
Today of course, the car has the equivalent of twin 8 inch motors
(Siamese 8), a 2000 amp controller, and 360V @ 1000 amps from the
battery pack. Given adequate power while keeping the vehicle weight
light, going direct drive and doing without a tranny gives the swiftest
acceleration.
Of course, this comparison test depends on how much motor, how much
battery, how much controller you have, and how much vehicle you have to
accelerate up to speed...something you left out of the equation. If your
test is using an average EV with an average battery pack (power density
wise), an average size single motor, and and average power level
controller (500-600 amps), then the results would be completely different.
I have the advantage of having two identical cars, both '72 Datsun 1200
sedans. My other one has less motor, less battery, and less controller.
This car still has the 4 speed tranny and clutch. Because even at half
the power of the Z2k, its Z1k can still send 1000 amps into the motor,
there is still quite a bit of torque developed. I drive it often in the
lazy man's mode as direct drive leaving it in 4th gear and simply
driving it around without shifting. Because the car only weighs 2340
lbs. it really performs quite well this way. However, using the tranny
and taking off in 2nd gear, then doing the 3-4 upshifts, the car is way
quicker. I've also compared the range on similar runs with the car left
in 4th and with using the gears of the tranny, and the range is better,
but not 'much higher' and only about 10% improved when using the tranny
vs driving it left in top gear.
The scales definitely tilt in favor of the tranny as the
motor/controller/battery pack gets weaker while the vehicle gets
heavier. For example, if you were stuck with a 500 amp Curtis and had a
3000+ lb. EV to lug around, the results would be more dramatic, and
driving around in 4th gear from rest would be awful. Acceleration will
be glacial, You'll probably blow the controller up eventually, and or
over-heat the traction motor as it struggles to move everything with so
low of an amperage input...you would not have enough amps to get the job
done, but you 'would' have enough amps to fry the motor.
Once you get to the higher performance levels that a large single motor
or multiple motors can provide when fed juice from an aggressive high
powered controller pushed by an aggressive high voltage battery pack, a
transmission becomes obsolete and is just extra weight and extra
spinning mass to deal with.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave, give Randy at canev.com a call. He was the guy who supplied me
with mine.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: November 18, 2006 7:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Simple Isolation Question
The transformer will not work with DC. You can get a small, inexpensive
DC-DC converter that will isolate the EMeter. The units are about 3/4"
square and cost about $20. As at your local electronics shop.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: November 18, 2006 7:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Simple Isolation Question
I have a simple question about isolating my eMeter. I want to run the eMeter
off the house battery and want to avoid letting the smoke out. Is it as
simple as putting a small transformer between the battery and the eMeter? No
stepping up or down of the voltage, just isolation. The eMeter is the only
thing running off this transformer. I'll have a dc-dc providing a charge
from the pack to the house battery, and that is isolated too.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
I want to run the E-Meter off the house battery and want to avoid
letting the smoke out. Is it as simple as putting a small transformer
between the battery and the E-Meter?
As folks have said, a transformer won't work on DC. But there are lots
of little DC/DC converters. The main problem is that most have poor
isolation.
Here's one that looks very good. It is 12-16vdc input, 24vdc 2w output,
and has 3000vac isolation for 1 minute.
Powerex VLA106-15242 (Newark #20K4388, $19.56)
I ordered a couple to test. Although Newark listed them as 'stock',
*after* ordering they quoted me Feb 1 2007 delivery :-(
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
You can use the DC/DC that the NMG or Sparrow uses for
isolation of the Emeter 12V power supply
http://www.coselusa.com/pdf/product/SFE_ZUS.pdf
or
http://www.coselusa.com/product.asp?Id=148
This is an example of one with very poor input/output isolation. Read
their data sheet carefully!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
Where can lead acid batteries get recycled? I'm looking for someone
who will pay me for 1000 pounds of batteries. I keep hearing the
price of lead is high. Scrap batteries ought to have some value.
I haul old lead acid batteries to my local scrapyard; they pay me $2 per
battery, regardless of size. This is not actually a good price, but it's
convenient.
If you have 1000 lbs of batteries, that's probably enough to "shop
around" for a better deal. If you live in a larger city, check the phone
book for "Scrap Metal Processing and Recycling".
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger,
Thanks for setting me straight - I forgot that
little tidbit about the series motor.
OK, how about having a series cntroller that
has 3 or 4 motor outputs and drives the field
separately, much like the SepEx?
With a small buck converter it is easy to get
a high current, low voltage output that the
series motor needs.
Reversing and field weakening for high speed
would be all electronic controlled from the
buck converter for the field, while the
armature can be driven by the full power
from the main controller that would normally
drive the entire series motor.
In theory this results in higher output power
due to the armature receiving a slightly higher
voltage, as the field is seperately excited.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Eliminate Reversing Contactors
Cor van de Water wrote:
> I like it - a simple DPDT switch, the only issue would be
> when someone would throw it at load/speed.
This is a major issue, both for the manual DPDT and Father Time's
suggestion of 'beefing' up a GC reversing contactor set. Another issue
for both is that they need to carry full motor current.
> BTW, the fact that 4 contactors are used is also because
> there is no "systems" approach, but the controller
> manufacturer is optimizing the controller by itself,
> which always causes a sub-optimum in almost all applicatoins
> of the controller.
> Would he look at the non-transmission EVs as a system, the
> controller would have a bridge output and reverse by its
> electronics, or at least have a push-pull (for example all
> MOSFETs instead of switch and diode) output, which would
> reduce the nr of contactors from 4 to 2, which can then
> be replaced by one single pole that switches the other
> motor contact between +batt and -batt.
> (the first side of the motor is on the push-pull output).
Unfortunately, this is not possible with a series motor: it is
impossible to reverse the direction of rotation by reversing the
polarity of the power applied to the motor. The direction of rotation
can only be reversed by reversing the connections to either the field or
armature, but not both.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
If this DC/DC is fused, what's the problem?
Furthermore, has anybody seen this failure mode?
This is a bit like saying, "I use a 100-pound-test rope to pick up 200
lbs, and it didn't break." The problem is that a 100 pound test rope is
*usually* good for more than 100 lbs -- when new, clean, and dry. But
100 lbs is all the manufacturer will guarantee that it can consistently
carry. And, the spec will get worse as the product ages or wears.
You can find the data sheet for the Cosel ZUS31212 DC/DC at:
http://www.cdiweb.com/datasheets/cosel/ZUS_series.pdf
It says it is UL listed according to standard UL60950-1, and its
isolation spec is 500vac for 1 minute, 10ma maximum leakage.
But UL60950 is a telecommunications standard, for things connected to
the phone line; *not* to the AC power line. The UL standards for the AC
power line require at least 1250vac isolation at 5ma maximum.
If you use a non-isolated charger for your EV (K&W, Russco, Rudman PFC,
etc.) then your battery pack is connected directly to the AC line during
charging. The 12v accessory battery system is grounded to your car's
body. So, a DC/DC that powers the E-meter from the 12v accessory system
has ground on one side, and the power line on the other side, and should
have at least 1250vac minimum isolation.
If the DC/DC's isolation fails, it will trip a GFCI. If there is no GFCI
and the car body is grounded, it will blow a fuse or trip a circuit
breaker. If the car body is not grounded, it will connect the car body
to the AC power line. This produces a serious shock hazard!
The Sparrows came with isolated Zivan chargers (I don't know what the
Myers version uses). The Sparrows also had fiberglass bodies, so a
shorted DC/DC might not even be noticed.
My cautions are intended more for the average EVer, with a steel bodied
car and non-isolated charger.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is just a test.
The last four emails I have sent to the list did not make it to the list.
Just wondering what's up.
Ken
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh Man Victor Glad you are in one piece and that your Daughter is alright.
I got my Hybrid Escape rear ended a couple of weeks ago.. it's in the Body
shop no Hybrid damage.
Graft out the AC EV parts and start a new EV.. Better chassis new parts to
play with.
Bummer for shure,Glad you will heal.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 1:31 PM
Subject: ACRX damage
> On Thursday I was involved in an accident in ACRX.
> It was actually nasty accident of two cars in front of me -
> what looked like mid size black Pontiac ran at about
> 50mph into a driver door of smaller red car (I think
> Saturn or such). I was following this read one at
> about 60 feet distance, and when Pontiac hit it, it
> was thrown backward (right toward me) and turned across
> the road. I was could not avoid the collision into
> it a second after it was ruined by the Pontiac.
>
> In about 5 min all the police, fire fighter trucks, sirens,
> ambulances, flashing lights, all that jazz. But, no
> explosions, fires or any spectacular effects. Just loud
> bang, broken glass, leaking antifreeze and scattered debris
> of metal scrap all over.
>
> Both are totaled. No fatalities I think,
> but there was half of that Pontiac left - the front
> part up to the wind shield was missing. Either on the
> road, or inside the cabin. Driver did not have insurance.
>
> Lady in Saturn sitting in front of deployed air bag kept
> asking "what had happened to me" - she could not think
> straight, cried and could not comprehend policeman's
> questions. I haven't seen Pontiac's driver at all.
>
> I was driving with my 9 year old daughter. I walked away with
> just broken finger and lost glasses; and she only got scared,
> not a single scratch.
>
> For those familiar with Portland OR, it happened on intersection
> of Foster and 58th street, around 5pm.
>
> ACRX's damage will need to be assessed. By that it looks from
> outside, it's not much front bumper, hood and head light.
> All electrical systems work, inverter starts and motor
> runs, no problem. But, engaged in gear, the car does not move.
> Like there is no half shafts.
>
> We towed her home using hard linkage, and on turns front wheels
> did not follow the towing vehicle - they kept turn outwards
> and scrub. So I had to sit in and steer. Apparently front suspension
> geometry is off and perhaps bent. My suspicion is the motor/tranny
> got shifted from the impact and one half-shaft may have popped out.
> Left side is sitting so low that almost scrub the road and I can't
> see much underneath without jacking it up.
>
> It is likely restorable, but I'll have to decide if it worth the effort.
> The AC drive, battery and all the guts can be transplanted into a new
> donor, but everyone knows
> how much effort it is to start from scratch. I suspect entire front
> has to be straightened and mechanical components replaced, likely
> at my cost. When I'm done, I'll still have cool but now 15 years old
> CRX with no airbags. Something to think about.
>
> I consider myself very lucky - if that Pontiac would hit ACRX as it did
> Saturn 60 feet in front of me, may be I wouldn't be alive - '95 model
> is not equipped with airbags. No matter how defensively you drive, there
> can always be someone running into you - something about impossible
> to be prepared for.
>
> Anyway, when I can hold tools again, I'll report more on ACRX's
> condition and post photos on my site. Be careful out there...
>
> Typing with one hand Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check with some of the battery companies. US Battery pays $6 per battery
exchange. Maybe one of the companies will give you a lead. Car Quest
advertises that they recycle batteries. Don't know if they will buy batteries
without you purchasing another battery.
--
In Friendship, Ted
//ted.sanders.home.comcast.net
//ffni.home.comcast.net
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Lee Hart Sez,
> You pay the material cost when you buy the battery; you get it back when
> you recycle it. The way metal prices are going, the scrap price of the
> pack could be considerable! So the money is not "lost"; just invested.
> SO-
> Where can lead acid batteries get recycled? I'm looking for someone who will
> pay
> me for 1000 pounds of batteries. I keep hearing the price of lead is high.
> Scrap
> batteries ought to have some value.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward
The last time this subject came up you mentioned you
were building a system but is was too expensive to set
up to the individual hobbiest and all the Varied
voltages a pack sizes and that you were working with
the OEM's only. When Bill & Nancy asked about a VW
sized system you responded to them with "Depending on
volume".
So are you selling systems to hobbiest? Or to OEM's?
OR both? If to OEM only then your the Mis-information
because if your not selling to the individual and it
will not be available to the general EV population on
this list. But only to people purchasing the Myers
Motors and Phoenix Motor Cars.
This is the same type of Hype Metallic Power did with
their Zinc Fuel Cell. Then there is the TM4 wheel
motor and many others. We are looking for solution
which are available to the General EV community. The
individual is building a car due to the lack of
availability from any production facility. Myers
Motors what $34000.00 for their NMG. Tesla want
$100,000.00 as quote from Popular Mechanics.
So IF your GALIA is available to anyone please let us
know. In looking at your production photo you have
created an approx 12V pack in an acrylic box.
I am not putting you down or trying to get your goat.
I am basing questions and accusations based off
previous post by you. And I am tire of all the great
technology being presented and then not being
available to anyone but a select few or in the
experimental stage.
--- Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just want to clarify the mis-infomation circling
> in the recent posts
> here. We have designed and tested management system
> for using Nimh
> cells in parallel. It works and it is currently
> being used on the
> road everyday. It is called the GAIA I.
>
> See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
>
> You CANNOT use Nimh cells in parallel without a
> management system.
> AND, WE HAVE DEVELOPED SUCH A SYSTEM. SO, STOP
> SAYING IT IS NOT
> POSSIBLE TO USE SMALL NIMH CELLS IN EV'S UNTIL YOU
> HAVE DONE YOUR
> HOMEWORK!
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> President
> AIR Lab Corp
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sponsored Link
$420k for $1,399/mo.
Think You Pay Too Much For Your Mortgage?
Find Out! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another option for inexpensive, isolated DC/DCs are the DCP, DCV and DCR
series from Texas Instruments. These are relatively inexpensive (sub $12 @
qty 1), reasonably friendly packaging-wise (DIPs available in most all
parts), have 1KV or more of isolation and are typically stocked by Digikey
and thus available for purchase in single piece quantities.
The only caveat with the non-regulated ones is that if you're load is going
to be very small, you may want to add a resistive load of ~15% of the
nominal rated output so the output voltage of the 12V versions isn't >
~13.5V.
An example part is:
DCP021212P ($11.58 Qty 1 Digikey)
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dcp020503.pdf
This series is also available in 12V --> 5V, 5V --> 12V, etc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rod Hower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 5:57 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Simple Isolation Question
>
> You can use the DC/DC that the NMG or Sparrow uses for
> isolation of the Emeter 12V power supply
> http://www.coselusa.com/pdf/product/SFE_ZUS.pdf
> or
> http://www.coselusa.com/product.asp?Id=148
> Rod
>
> --- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi, Don -
> >
> > Can you supply more info about these?
> >
> > For example, does Digi-key sell these? Or Jameco or
> > Mouser? Do you have a
> > part number?
> >
> > I need isolated power for my home-brew voltage and
> > current instrumentation (
> > not for an e-meter).
> >
> > The only isolated DC-DC converters I've been able to
> > find are single-IC
> > devices for about $8, and, according to Lee, these
> > generally have poor
> > isolation. I would gladly buy something for $20 if
> > it would reliably do the
> > job.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> > >From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >To: [email protected]
> > >Subject: RE: Simple Isolation Question
> > >Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:17:51 -0800
> > >
> > >The transformer will not work with DC. You can get
> > a small, inexpensive
> > >DC-DC converter that will isolate the EMeter. The
> > units are about 3/4"
> > >square and cost about $20. As at your local
> > electronics shop.
> > >
> > >
> > >Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> > >
> > >see the New Beetle EV project
> > www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > >Behalf Of Dave Cover
> > >Sent: November 18, 2006 7:08 AM
> > >To: [email protected]
> > >Subject: Simple Isolation Question
> > >
> > >I have a simple question about isolating my eMeter.
> > I want to run the
> > >eMeter
> > >off the house battery and want to avoid letting the
> > smoke out. Is it as
> > >simple as putting a small transformer between the
> > battery and the eMeter?
> > >No
> > >stepping up or down of the voltage, just isolation.
> > The eMeter is the only
> > >thing running off this transformer. I'll have a
> > dc-dc providing a charge
> > >from the pack to the house battery, and that is
> > isolated too.
> > >
> > >Thanks
> > >
> > >Dave Cover
> > >
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio
> > with MSN Radio powered
> > by Pandora
> > http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Snable" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:43 PM
Subject: Was: Patent revocation, Now: Myers Motors Qui Moto
> Hi Ed,
>
> Your post led me to revisit the AIR Lab site, then Myers. What the
> heck is the Qui Moto?! I knew they were working on a next generation
> but I haven't seen any mention until I stumbled upon this:
>
> http://www.myersmotors.com/Poster4.htm
>
> Jay
>
> On Nov 18, 2006, at 4:41 PM, Edward Ang wrote:
>
> > On 11/17/06, Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> So, no, NiMH can't be used for EV's. Period.
> >
> > I had to jump in now. Are you saying our Nimh powered Sparrow that
> > has been running since Jan is not real? Many on this list have seen
> > it in person. We now have 3 Nimh powered Sparrows on the road.
> >
> > See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
> >
> > Yes, you cannot parallel Nimh cells without a management system. But,
> > wait, we have a mangement system!
> >
> > --
> > Edward Ang
> > President
> > AIR Lab Corp
> >
> Hi Ed;
Very nice website, AirLab, Your on the right track with the Nimh
stuff. It is all in the battery managment system. Eight dollar word for
charger, but needed to run Nimh's!No more Bad Boys an' 'stench chords!How
are the Sparrows doing? Must get 100 miles per charge?Maybe their still in
experimation? So ya can't really say?
How do ya get around the Chevron Held Patent?
> Can you come up with cells that are a tad different enough to get away
with it?But all this technology seems to be out of the Common Man's reach,
for now?I can't see an issue paralleling these things WITH the battery
Balencer thing on?
More Power to ya!
Bob Led Sled builder!
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.7/537 - Release Date: 11/17/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
