EV Digest 6150
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) (no subject)
by "Colin McKay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Simple Isolation Question
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: ACRX damage
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Circuit board protection
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW- Misinformation?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: ACRX damage
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW- Misinformation?
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: KillaCycle - SPARKS - at end of Video
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ACRX damage
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Eliminate Reversing Contactors
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ACRX damage
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Eliminate Reversing Contactors
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Myers Motors Qui Moto
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW- Misinformation?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: KillaCycle - SPARKS - at end of Video
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: KillaCycle - SPARKS - at end of Video
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
set EV mail digest
-----=====-----
I reject your reality, and substitute my own.
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--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
> > How long will a pack like this last?
>
> Much longer than the lead acid. Definitely longer shelf life and
> safer than the LiIon. We are testing cycle life in the real world
> condition at this moment.
I disagree with that !
opposite to nicad (20-30 years), nimh have a short shelf life !
usually admitted point is less than 10 years so i would not say "Much
longer" but similar to lead acid !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
> On 11/18/06, Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > How much would a system at 120 volts for a vw sized vehicle cost
> > including bateries and is it available today?
>
> Depending on volume.
>
> > How long will a pack like this last?
>
> Much longer than the lead acid. Definitely longer shelf life and
> safer than the LiIon. We are testing cycle life in the real world
> condition at this moment.
>
> > Bill
> >
> > Edward Ang wrote:
> >
> > > I just want to clarify the mis-infomation circling in the recent posts
> > > here. We have designed and tested management system for using Nimh
> > > cells in parallel. It works and it is currently being used on the
> > > road everyday. It is called the GAIA I.
> > >
> > > See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
> > >
> > > You CANNOT use Nimh cells in parallel without a management system.
> > > AND, WE HAVE DEVELOPED SUCH A SYSTEM. SO, STOP SAYING IT IS NOT
> > > POSSIBLE TO USE SMALL NIMH CELLS IN EV'S UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE YOUR
> > > HOMEWORK!
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> President
> AIR Lab Corp
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The TDK series is also a really great bunch of parts:
http://www.tdk.co.jp/tefe02/ea335_cc_e.pdf
Now the rated input in 9v-18v, which is good for a 12v battery.
Another thing I found out from these parts is they're super-low
quiescent current, those DCRs were like 15-20mA and my testing showed
that was completely accurate. I think the TDK parts were like 6mA or
something though. Won't matter much if you're only turning it on while
power an e-meter or whatever. I was planning it for an isolated shunt
with on-board ADC for long term current monitoring and the quiescent
draw was an issue.
They're still only 500VAC for 1 min. Like Lee says, it's hard to
compare breakdown ratings, the specific meaning of the rating (one-time
vs normal use) is in question for one. Also temp, dV/dT, and age have a
huge impact on breakdown rating. I mean are they projecting/testing a
5/10-yr aging factor and then showing it can sustain 500VAC for 1 min at
the max rated temp for 1000x cycles? (of course that's kind of unlikely
the mfg did that pessimistic a test to establish the rating) Or do they
test a brand new part at room temp to 1000VAC for a 1 sec duration once
and that's all they intend to specify?
I gotta say the TDK sure looks like a remarkably well constructed module
esp for the price. Under the metal shielding cap, there are a bunch of
tiny components very neatly packed in there. And the 1.5W modules are
just under $10. There are 2.5W modules for just a bit more.
Danny
Chet Neeley wrote:
Another option for inexpensive, isolated DC/DCs are the DCP, DCV and DCR
series from Texas Instruments. These are relatively inexpensive (sub $12 @
qty 1), reasonably friendly packaging-wise (DIPs available in most all
parts), have 1KV or more of isolation and are typically stocked by Digikey
and thus available for purchase in single piece quantities.
The only caveat with the non-regulated ones is that if you're load is going
to be very small, you may want to add a resistive load of ~15% of the
nominal rated output so the output voltage of the 12V versions isn't >
~13.5V.
An example part is:
DCP021212P ($11.58 Qty 1 Digikey)
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dcp020503.pdf
This series is also available in 12V --> 5V, 5V --> 12V, etc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Hower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 5:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Simple Isolation Question
You can use the DC/DC that the NMG or Sparrow uses for
isolation of the Emeter 12V power supply
http://www.coselusa.com/pdf/product/SFE_ZUS.pdf
or
http://www.coselusa.com/product.asp?Id=148
Rod
--- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi, Don -
Can you supply more info about these?
For example, does Digi-key sell these? Or Jameco or
Mouser? Do you have a
part number?
I need isolated power for my home-brew voltage and
current instrumentation (
not for an e-meter).
The only isolated DC-DC converters I've been able to
find are single-IC
devices for about $8, and, according to Lee, these
generally have poor
isolation. I would gladly buy something for $20 if
it would reliably do the
job.
Thanks,
Phil
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Simple Isolation Question
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 07:17:51 -0800
The transformer will not work with DC. You can get
a small, inexpensive
DC-DC converter that will isolate the EMeter. The
units are about 3/4"
square and cost about $20. As at your local
electronics shop.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: November 18, 2006 7:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Simple Isolation Question
I have a simple question about isolating my eMeter.
I want to run the
eMeter
off the house battery and want to avoid letting the
smoke out. Is it as
simple as putting a small transformer between the
battery and the eMeter?
No
stepping up or down of the voltage, just isolation.
The eMeter is the only
thing running off this transformer. I'll have a
dc-dc providing a charge
from the pack to the house battery, and that is
isolated too.
Thanks
Dave Cover
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
Glad to hear that you are not seriously hurt and your daughter is fine.
My conversion was total last year. So, I understand how you are
feeling. Right now, I am sure your emotional injury is much more
serious than your physical one. It is so hard to even look at the car
because of the countless hours you put on it.
I just kept reminding myself that it is just a car, but it didn't seem
to help much. So, I remind myself that it could have been much worse.
On 11/18/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thursday I was involved in an accident in ACRX.
It was actually nasty accident of two cars in front of me -
what looked like mid size black Pontiac ran at about
50mph into a driver door of smaller red car (I think
Saturn or such). I was following this read one at
about 60 feet distance, and when Pontiac hit it, it
was thrown backward (right toward me) and turned across
the road. I was could not avoid the collision into
it a second after it was ruined by the Pontiac.
In about 5 min all the police, fire fighter trucks, sirens,
ambulances, flashing lights, all that jazz. But, no
explosions, fires or any spectacular effects. Just loud
bang, broken glass, leaking antifreeze and scattered debris
of metal scrap all over.
Both are totaled. No fatalities I think,
but there was half of that Pontiac left - the front
part up to the wind shield was missing. Either on the
road, or inside the cabin. Driver did not have insurance.
Lady in Saturn sitting in front of deployed air bag kept
asking "what had happened to me" - she could not think
straight, cried and could not comprehend policeman's
questions. I haven't seen Pontiac's driver at all.
I was driving with my 9 year old daughter. I walked away with
just broken finger and lost glasses; and she only got scared,
not a single scratch.
For those familiar with Portland OR, it happened on intersection
of Foster and 58th street, around 5pm.
ACRX's damage will need to be assessed. By that it looks from
outside, it's not much front bumper, hood and head light.
All electrical systems work, inverter starts and motor
runs, no problem. But, engaged in gear, the car does not move.
Like there is no half shafts.
We towed her home using hard linkage, and on turns front wheels
did not follow the towing vehicle - they kept turn outwards
and scrub. So I had to sit in and steer. Apparently front suspension
geometry is off and perhaps bent. My suspicion is the motor/tranny
got shifted from the impact and one half-shaft may have popped out.
Left side is sitting so low that almost scrub the road and I can't
see much underneath without jacking it up.
It is likely restorable, but I'll have to decide if it worth the effort.
The AC drive, battery and all the guts can be transplanted into a new
donor, but everyone knows
how much effort it is to start from scratch. I suspect entire front
has to be straightened and mechanical components replaced, likely
at my cost. When I'm done, I'll still have cool but now 15 years old
CRX with no airbags. Something to think about.
I consider myself very lucky - if that Pontiac would hit ACRX as it did
Saturn 60 feet in front of me, may be I wouldn't be alive - '95 model
is not equipped with airbags. No matter how defensively you drive, there
can always be someone running into you - something about impossible
to be prepared for.
Anyway, when I can hold tools again, I'll report more on ACRX's
condition and post photos on my site. Be careful out there...
Typing with one hand Victor
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where I live in western Washington. Water is constant problem in the low
voltage systems I work on. Especially lately. I have found that anything
you do that works to keep the water out makes the device unrepairable in the
future. But if you can keep the water out. Why would you ever need to
service it anyway. The best products I have found are the direct burial kits
made by 3M. I have seen these kits live under water for 20 years with out
any problems. Usually the insulation on the wire breaks down before the
splice kit. The water wicks up the wire between the insulation and the
conductor.
Here is the link to the 3M product line. < http://tinyurl.com/yfq2sw > I get
these at Graybar electrical supply. Any electrical supply house should carry
them. If you don't use the housing that comes with some of the full kits.
You can then take the compounds and put them in sandwich bag with the device
your protecting. Mush it around to get the air out. Put a zip tie around the
end of the bag where the wires come out to keep the compound from leaking
out. The compounds take about 24 hours to setup and will get warm to the
touch during this time. It will be hard as rock after it sets up.
There was one other time I needed to water proof a board with LEDs on it up
in the Quinalt rain forest. The first thing I tried was to coat the board
with a water based clear bathroom chalk. This lasted about three years which
was pretty good considering this is all I had on my truck and no supply
stores near by. I found the water based chalk reacted with the copper and
corroded. This summer I rebuilt the board and used solvent base chalk.
Solvent based chalks are the best and hopefully will not cause corrosion
like the water base chalk. They do have a strong smell so keep them outside
the car. I'm hoping this will last longer. Only time will tell. Do use a
clear chalk so you can see any corrosion if it does happen.
I once thought of dipping the whole board in paraffin wax used for canning.
Letting the device sit in the hot wax to let it really adhere to the board
and components. Then if you needed to repair it later you could melt the wax
coating off. I haven't tried this yet. But it sounds good on paper.
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
Thank GOD for Thomas Edison. Without him we would all be watching TV by
candle light.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 6:45 AM
Subject: Circuit board protection
Is it a good idea to somehow protect any circuit boards which are
underhood ( or in-dash)?
All of the underhood electronics in my car will be inside a box (made of
polycarbonate sheet) but there still might be some condensation,etc,
because it won't be perfectly sealed. I also live in a place where they
use a lot of road salt and it gets everywhere.
Especially since there will be pack voltages on some boards, it seems like
some kind of protection might be a good idea.
What does eveyone use ( if anything)? I notice that Jameco sells a spray
urethane "conformal coating"., but I coudn't find anything in the Digi-Key
catalog. I assume you would just spray the copper side, and not the
component side (for single-sided boards), right?
I've never coated etched circuit boards with anything (and never had any
problems) , but everything I've done so far has been used indoors (audio
stuff, etc)
Phil
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not what I am saying Edward. I am just saying that
being exclusive to OEM and saying it is available now
is misinformation. GM did that with the EV1. They
actually never sold it.
However have you ever thought that the EV community
might jump at the chance to get battery pack that is
half the weight of a lead pack. And last longer.
I am not saying don't deal with OEM's. I am saying
include the hobbiest to help with the payoff of the
R&D. Don't exclude them from the equation. Otmar, Rich
and Victor don't exclude us. That's Cafe Electric,
Manzanita Micro, and Metric Mind.
--- Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thank you, David. I couldn't have said it better.
>
> The misinormation I was trying to correct was that
> many kept saying we
> will never see a Nimh powered EV on the road. But,
> we have put 3 on
> the road now! And, we are continuing to put more on
> the road.
>
> Simply put, are we better off not having Tesla
> Motors, Myers Motors,
> AIR Lab etc. and keep doing what the EV hobbyists
> have been doing over
> the last 30 years? At this moment, if a company
> starts its business
> by focusing on the small EV hobbyist market, it is
> likely that it will
> go out-of-business before a significant number of
> EV's are put on the
> road. Or, it will just give up trying. There are
> too many examples
> to count.
>
> But, if a few companies work together, we might just
> put enough units
> on the road to bring the cost down to benefit the
> hobbyists. Also, if
> we show that companies could make money in EV's, I
> assure you others
> would jump in and competitions will benefit
> everyone.
>
> Bruce, how about you hire a group of engineers to
> design a system for
> the EV hobbyist market and swallow the R&D cost and
> sell the system at
> cost? If you think you can't do that, why should
> you think others
> could? Worse, if you try to do that, you are
> preventing others from
> making money by undercutting them. Do you think you
> are helping?
>
> On 11/19/06, David Roden (Akron OH USA)
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 19 Nov 2006 at 5:56, Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> >
> > > I am tire of all the great
> > > technology being presented and then not being
> > > available to anyone but a select few or in the
> > > experimental stage.
> >
> > I suppose we all are, but that's the way it is.
> Maybe it would be better if we
> > just didn't hear about these developments that we
> can't have. ;-)
> >
> > I'm sure that at least one of the EV parts vendors
> will chime in here, but it's a
> > sad fact of life that we EV hobbyists represent
> one of the most demanding
> > (costly) and least profitable markets for vendors.
> >
> > We require lots of hand-holding (which costs
> vendors time and money).
> > Worse, we're spoiled by high levels of customer
> service from mass market
> > retailers (often delivered with $8 per hour or
> less labor). We expect someone
> > at the other end of the phone 24 hours a day. We
> raise hell if an EV parts
> > vendor doesn't provide the same level of service
> with their $100 per hour
> > engineers and their $30 per hour techs. I see
> people complaining about this
> > on the EV list every week.
> >
> > And of course we want the parts to be as cheap as
> possible - ideally about
> > the same as we pay for ICE parts. In an era when
> we can buy a desktop
> > computer for $300 (!), it's something of a shock
> to see prices that actually
> > and accurately reflect the cost of engineering and
> production amortized over
> > a few hundred units, instead of a few hundred
> thousand or million. That's why
> > controllers and chargers can easily cost $5-10k
> each.
> >
> > My hat's off to folks like Rich, Otmar, and
> Victor. They're building, selling,
> > and supporting EV parts at prices that are tough
> to sustain. We'll be lucky if
> > they don't burn out doing this. I don't think
> they get enough recognition for
> > what they do.
> >
> > And they are a rarity. Most people understandably
> want to make a good
> > living without having to spend, effectively, 24
> hours a day on the job. How
> > about you?
> >
> > Many of the parts we use in our EVs were designed
> for other purposes -
> > forklifts, industrial vehicles, boats, and even
> various ICEs. Their relatively low
> > cost is made possible by - you guessed it - mass
> production. EV hobbyists
> > are NOT a mass market, but some of the above
> markets are (relatively
> > speaking). We get to ride along.
> >
> > When some industrial vehicle manufacturer, golf
> car builder, or even an
> > automaker contracts with Edward's company to buy a
> quantity of his NiMH
> > modules, then we'll have an in. We'll eventually
> be able to buy them from
> > that user or automaker as spares. Who knows, a
> few years down the road
> > they may even be available at Autozone as
> remanufactured parts.
> >
> > I don't speak for Edward, but my guess is that if
> you want them before then,
> > all you have to do is find a way to make it worth
> his while financially to build
> > them for you.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> President
> AIR Lab Corp
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
Thanks for kind words. I'll be fine and build (or re-build)
the EV ASAP.
Thanks for offer to help, I don't know what that can be.
The only thing I can think of is software development
I really need help with, but this is not directly related
to the ACRX.
The embedded programming of EVision and BMS I work on is done
by my partner who is in UK. Remotely it works well over Skype and
emailing code back and forth until it comes to debugging
and I have to fly him here or go there... And even with
him locally it's not enough time that he can commit to it.
So I'm looking for a willing programmer. If you happen to know
anyone enthusiastic enough, let me know. That would be terrific
help.
Hope your beetle runs fine and your AC drive does not disappoint
you.
BTW, did you finally receive your package?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the record, we are also working with a few individuals to put our
system on their vehicles. However, in this stage, we would only
consider individuals who live close to us or who are willing to pay a
premium for remote support. Even that, we are finding it very
difficult. We are stretching our resources too thin.
On 11/19/06, Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Not what I am saying Edward. I am just saying that
being exclusive to OEM and saying it is available now
is misinformation. GM did that with the EV1. They
actually never sold it.
But, we are selling it.
However have you ever thought that the EV community
might jump at the chance to get battery pack that is
half the weight of a lead pack. And last longer.
We are constantly thinking about this. But, we also have to evaluate
the best approach so that we won't go out-of-business trying. Try
putting you in my shoes, and you would understand.
I am not saying don't deal with OEM's. I am saying
include the hobbiest to help with the payoff of the
R&D. Don't exclude them from the equation. Otmar, Rich
and Victor don't exclude us. That's Cafe Electric,
Manzanita Micro, and Metric Mind.
Like I said, we are open to that, but we are over-stretched even
dealing only with OEM's. If I have to spend a few hours a day on the
phone supporting the end users, I would not have time for anything
else.
I can't speak for Otmar, Rich, and Victor, but, have you ever thought
about how the situation would be different if they focused on OEM's at
the beginning? We might all be driving EV's from the OEM's by now.
Or, we might already have the PFC chargers for less than $1000, the
Zilla for less than $1500, and an AC system for less than $5000. As
an example, the Zilla now has a 6-month lead time. Otmar has always
been trying hard to deliver controllers. But, how can OEM's like
Myers Motors afford to wait that long? I respect Otmar's dedication
to the hobbyists, but I think we all would benefit more if he focuses
on OEM's first. Don't you think so?
Would you rather me selling systems to the hobbyists and delay the
entire process of refining the system, supplying the OEM's with a
solution, and to bring the cost down? And, worse, risking possibly
over-work myself and give up? I don't want to repeat the history.
I made AIR Lab's Vreg available to the public. So, I know what I am
facing. I truly think AIR Lab would be dead if I made the complex
GAIA I available to the public at this stage.
Please bear with AIR Lab. I promise we will try our best to
eventually help the hobbyists with the GAIA I. But, I know our limits
and I cannot promise something that we cannot deliver.
--- Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thank you, David. I couldn't have said it better.
>
> The misinormation I was trying to correct was that
> many kept saying we
> will never see a Nimh powered EV on the road. But,
> we have put 3 on
> the road now! And, we are continuing to put more on
> the road.
>
> Simply put, are we better off not having Tesla
> Motors, Myers Motors,
> AIR Lab etc. and keep doing what the EV hobbyists
> have been doing over
> the last 30 years? At this moment, if a company
> starts its business
> by focusing on the small EV hobbyist market, it is
> likely that it will
> go out-of-business before a significant number of
> EV's are put on the
> road. Or, it will just give up trying. There are
> too many examples
> to count.
>
> But, if a few companies work together, we might just
> put enough units
> on the road to bring the cost down to benefit the
> hobbyists. Also, if
> we show that companies could make money in EV's, I
> assure you others
> would jump in and competitions will benefit
> everyone.
>
> Bruce, how about you hire a group of engineers to
> design a system for
> the EV hobbyist market and swallow the R&D cost and
> sell the system at
> cost? If you think you can't do that, why should
> you think others
> could? Worse, if you try to do that, you are
> preventing others from
> making money by undercutting them. Do you think you
> are helping?
>
> On 11/19/06, David Roden (Akron OH USA)
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 19 Nov 2006 at 5:56, Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> >
> > > I am tire of all the great
> > > technology being presented and then not being
> > > available to anyone but a select few or in the
> > > experimental stage.
> >
> > I suppose we all are, but that's the way it is.
> Maybe it would be better if we
> > just didn't hear about these developments that we
> can't have. ;-)
> >
> > I'm sure that at least one of the EV parts vendors
> will chime in here, but it's a
> > sad fact of life that we EV hobbyists represent
> one of the most demanding
> > (costly) and least profitable markets for vendors.
> >
> > We require lots of hand-holding (which costs
> vendors time and money).
> > Worse, we're spoiled by high levels of customer
> service from mass market
> > retailers (often delivered with $8 per hour or
> less labor). We expect someone
> > at the other end of the phone 24 hours a day. We
> raise hell if an EV parts
> > vendor doesn't provide the same level of service
> with their $100 per hour
> > engineers and their $30 per hour techs. I see
> people complaining about this
> > on the EV list every week.
> >
> > And of course we want the parts to be as cheap as
> possible - ideally about
> > the same as we pay for ICE parts. In an era when
> we can buy a desktop
> > computer for $300 (!), it's something of a shock
> to see prices that actually
> > and accurately reflect the cost of engineering and
> production amortized over
> > a few hundred units, instead of a few hundred
> thousand or million. That's why
> > controllers and chargers can easily cost $5-10k
> each.
> >
> > My hat's off to folks like Rich, Otmar, and
> Victor. They're building, selling,
> > and supporting EV parts at prices that are tough
> to sustain. We'll be lucky if
> > they don't burn out doing this. I don't think
> they get enough recognition for
> > what they do.
> >
> > And they are a rarity. Most people understandably
> want to make a good
> > living without having to spend, effectively, 24
> hours a day on the job. How
> > about you?
> >
> > Many of the parts we use in our EVs were designed
> for other purposes -
> > forklifts, industrial vehicles, boats, and even
> various ICEs. Their relatively low
> > cost is made possible by - you guessed it - mass
> production. EV hobbyists
> > are NOT a mass market, but some of the above
> markets are (relatively
> > speaking). We get to ride along.
> >
> > When some industrial vehicle manufacturer, golf
> car builder, or even an
> > automaker contracts with Edward's company to buy a
> quantity of his NiMH
> > modules, then we'll have an in. We'll eventually
> be able to buy them from
> > that user or automaker as spares. Who knows, a
> few years down the road
> > they may even be available at Autozone as
> remanufactured parts.
> >
> > I don't speak for Edward, but my guess is that if
> you want them before then,
> > all you have to do is find a way to make it worth
> his while financially to build
> > them for you.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> President
> AIR Lab Corp
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sponsored Link
Mortgage rates near 39yr lows.
$510k for $1,698/mo. Calculate new payment!
www.LowerMyBills.com/lre
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This raising an interesting point.
How prone to picking up street metal are electric vehicles?
Do the motor magnets pick up any metal within a certain number of
inches?
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 10:22 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The near-total darkness made it look a LOT more spectacular than it
really was.
There is no direct path from the tire to the motor. The bolt (or nut)
zigged, zagged, and bounced past the edge of the fender, under the
plasma shield, along the top of the motor, and slipped into the brush
rigging. There is no direct path, so we didn't even realize it was
possible until it actually happened. (We will definitely correct this
for the next race.)
I think the "firefly" you see is a hot blob of something that the rear
tire picked up from the track and tossed into the air. Again, there is
no direct path in that trajectory from the motors.
The motor commutators are shielded on all sides, as per NHRA and NEDRA
requirements. The bike has passed tech inspection countless times
without a problem because it is 100% compliant with the rules.
Bill Dube'
At 10:30 AM 11/18/2006, you wrote:
several posts mentioned that bolts were found on the track and that
one must have been picked up by the tire and thrown through the back
motor and exited in a different state of matter :op
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Lough"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:09 AM
Subject: KillaCycle - SPARKS - at end of Video
Thought I have combed through the last few days of EVDL posts quite
carefully.. But
NO ANSWER as to what the sparks were. BILL ?? Can you tell us. ??
Im speaking of the video on YouTube, of your record runs last week..
And as the bike goes up the exit run,, there is a shower of sparks.
Two folks have asked... if you know what they were caused
by....Could you let us know.?
(maybe it is a secret weapon... a Plasma JET gone bad ? )
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all replied on and off list!
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> OK, how about having a series cntroller that
> has 3 or 4 motor outputs and drives the field
> separately, much like the SepEx?
Sure; all you need is to have the controller offer connections to each
of the motor's 4 terminals, how the controller manipulates them is up to
you.
Myself, I would put a beefed up GC reversing contactor inside the
controller use that to reverse the field connections in response to a
FWD/REV command from the micro. Thw micro can make sure that the
FWD/REV contactor is never opened under load, no matter when the user
asks the micro to reverse direction.
The contactor is cheaper than enough FETs to implement a DPDT function
capable of handling full motor current and more efficient than PWMing
full pack voltage down to the ~1V or so that the series field requires.
Finally, it avoids the complexity associated with trying to coordinate
the field drive to deliver very nearly the same current to the field as
to the armature... Remember, the motor is designed from the assumption
that the field and armature currents will be the same, and if they are
not kept nearly the same most series motors will exibit more arcing and
will wear the brushes prematurely.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whoops, sorry all,
This email below was intended to be sent off list to
Don Cameron.
--------------------------------
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Hi Don,
Thanks for kind words. I'll be fine and build (or re-build)
the EV ASAP.
...
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
> Do I have the 8" ADC motor I've been testing hooked up wrong?
> I have S1 jumpered to A2. Positive battery to S2 and negative to A1
> spins the motor, if I reverse polarity on the A1 and S2 it
> spins in reverse.
It sounds like the hookup is fine, but if the motor spins in the same
direction when you reverse polarity to the motor, then something is
wrong. A series motor will not reverse direction when you do this...
BTW, it really isn't that much more complicated to reverse a series
motor than one (like PMDC) that reverses direction when you reverse the
polarity of the applied voltage. Both cases require a DPDT switch to
reverse the polarity, the difference is merely that the "easy" case can
locate the switch inside the controller and run a single pair of power
cables to the motor while the "difficult" case must run 4 power cables
to the motor if the switch is located inside the controller (but only 2
if the switch is located near/at the motor). The AC motor case
typically has 3 power cables between the motor and controller (since
3-phase motors are used), and requires 6 power switches. The series DC
case requires 5 power switches and 4 cables to achieve the same thing.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like it has 4 wheels to me. As a four wheeler it might be more
dificult to liscense?
Mark Grasser
78 #358
BIG REDs
http://members.rennlist.com/mgrasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 1:04 PM
Subject: Myers Motors Qui Moto
Here's a mention of who designed it in clay: Goes back to 1991 as gas
engined design. Not new at all, just planned as an electrified version.
"Stringer built a full-size, two-seat performance road car called the Qui
Moto to demonstrate just how clay modeling is accomplished. Not intended
for
production, the car was built as a theme for a sports tourer of the future
that would lean into a turn like a motorcycle. It would use active
suspension, a motorcycle engine, and a Kevlar and carbon fiber composite
body over a honey- comb and aluminum monocoque chassis tub." from
http://www.chavant.com/new_site/files/pdf/chavant_news01.pdf
http://www.3wheelers.com/projgal4.html
---- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: Was: Patent revocation, Now: Myers Motors Qui Moto
Qui Moto is a concept vehicle, a 2-seater tandem sitting. It is now
at the San Francisco Auto Show. In fact, I was just there this
afternoon.
On 11/18/06, Jay Snable <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Ed,
>
> Your post led me to revisit the AIR Lab site, then Myers. What the
> heck is the Qui Moto?! I knew they were working on a next generation
> but I haven't seen any mention until I stumbled upon this:
>
> http://www.myersmotors.com/Poster4.htm
>
> Jay
>
> On Nov 18, 2006, at 4:41 PM, Edward Ang wrote:
>
> > On 11/17/06, Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> So, no, NiMH can't be used for EV's. Period.
> >
> > I had to jump in now. Are you saying our Nimh powered Sparrow that
> > has been running since Jan is not real? Many on this list have seen
> > it in person. We now have 3 Nimh powered Sparrows on the road.
> >
> > See www.airlabcorp.com for details.
> >
> > Yes, you cannot parallel Nimh cells without a management system.
> > But,
> > wait, we have a mangement system!
> >
> > --
> > Edward Ang
> > President
> > AIR Lab Corp
> >
>
>
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David wrote:
> We require lots of hand-holding (which costs vendors time and money).
> Worse, we're spoiled by high levels of customer service from mass market
> retailers (often delivered with $8 per hour or less labor). We expect
> someone at the other end of the phone 24 hours a day.
> We raise hell if an EV parts vendor doesn't provide the same level of
> service with their $100 per hour engineers and their $30 per hour techs.
> I see people complaining about this on the EV list every week.
>
> And of course we want the parts to be as cheap as possible - ideally about
> the same as we pay for ICE parts. In an era when we can buy a desktop
> computer for $300 (!), it's something of a shock to see prices that
> actually
> and accurately reflect the cost of engineering and production amortized
> over
> a few hundred units, instead of a few hundred thousand or million. That's
> why
> controllers and chargers can easily cost $5-10k each.
Well David: I guess you speak for yourself ;) I am sure a lot of folks
wouldn't mind spending serious money for the products we would like to
see. But - the unfortunate truth is: Most EV dealers sell the same stuff.
What about a 'regen' module, an a/c system (or at least a motor/compressor
combo), what about a range extender generator, a combination dc-dc battery
charger system?
I bought the parts in my EV based on value and NEED, not based on price.
Just my two cents.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill /Jim have you looked at the comm yet for mech. damage?Also were there
any sparking events on the slower runs? Dennis Berube
In a message dated 11/19/2006 3:37:14
PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >
> >The motor commutators are shielded on all sides, as per NHRA and NEDRA
> >requirements. The bike has passed tech inspection countless times
> >without a problem because it is 100% compliant with the rules.
> >
> >Bill Dube'
> >
> >At 10:30 AM 11/18/2006, you wrote:
> >>several posts mentioned that bolts were found on the track and that
> >>one must have been picked up by the tire and thrown through the back
> >>motor and exited in a different state of matter :op
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Lough"
> >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>
> >>Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:09 AM
> >>Subject: KillaCycle - SPARKS - at end of Video
> >>
> >>
> >>>Thought I have combed through the last few days of EVDL posts quite
> >>>carefully.. But
> >>>
> >>>NO ANSWER as to what the sparks were. BILL ?? Can you tell us. ??
> >>>
> >>>Im speaking of the video on YouTube, of your record runs last week..
> >>>And as the bike goes up the exit run,, there is a shower of sparks.
> >>>
> >>>Two folks have asked... if you know what they were caused
> >>>by....Could you let us know.?
> >>>(maybe it is a secret weapon... a Plasma JET gone bad ? )
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes I have talked about the IB D-cell battery before, it looks to me as
the current best battery prospect for EVs.
If I know anything about business (and I do) its a losing effort to try
to convince people they need a product, you need to fill demand that
already exists. It seemed there was demand for a better battery, but I
don't think that is truly the case, not if it costs more than the
cheapest flooded lead option.
I have been testing the IB cells, I have built a 48v pack.
As I've posted about before, I am working on an electric Jetski.
It has a BLDC motor, I've created a 48v controller for it, put it
together, it blows air out the back very well. I bought a kiddie pool to
test it in the water, but the sales window for it has closed for now, so
I've mostly set it aside and am working on something else which I've not
talked about and probably won't. I'm still working on the high voltage
version of the motor controller and the NiMH batteries.
It seems a 120v DC motor controller is what is really needed and would
have customers. I've got a working controller using IGBT modules, but it
isn't a product. I suspect you'll see some new DC controllers coming out
of the woodwork and not sure I want to compete with them.
Hope that helps,
Jack
David Roden wrote:
On 18 Nov 2006 at 21:42, Jack Murray wrote:
For a car that uses 10 Optimas for 120v the NiMH would then be $2300,
and weigh 1/3 less.
Seems very reasonable to me.
Jack -
I could be misremembering, but I think I recall your writing about this
battery several times before, citing a number of potential advantages. Of
course the proof is in the building, and in fact I suspect a lot of us on
this list are very keen to see you build a car with this battery. I know I
am.
You would be a real pioneer. If you made a successful EV with this battery,
it could open up some very interesting options for people. It could also be
a business for you, should you choose to pursue it.
What's your progress so far? Are you working on a proof of concept, perhaps
a scooter or bike?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:34 PM 11/19/2006, you wrote:
This raising an interesting point.
How prone to picking up street metal are electric vehicles?
Do the motor magnets pick up any metal within a certain number of inches?
The magnetic field is quite well contained (and internally
canceled.) You would surely deflect a compass, but you wouldn't
attract anything from any distance.
In our case, the rear tire is a racing slick and is
EXTREMELY sticky. These tires pick up _everything_. The bike returns
to the pits with a coating of gravel on the rear tire.
Only a rube would stand behind a drag vehicle while it is
doing a burn-out, because the rear tires pick up _everything_ they
run over. If you were to stand behind any dragster during a burn-out,
you would be pelted with stones, etc. while you choked on the smoke
and steam. You would also be coated with sticky black rubber
particles shed from the tire. (I think that the track crew would drag
you out of the way if you even attempted to stand there.)
This is probably why they require a special wristband (and
liability sign-off) for you to enter this area of the track. :-)
Minimum crew are allowed close to the vehicle during the burn-out and
the race itself.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
