EV Digest 6171
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
by "Offgrid Engineering" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Duralast batteries?
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: How do decrease Wh/mile
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Duralast batteries?
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New website created
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Duralast batteries?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Duralast batteries?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Who killed the Electric Car in Ohio
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Duralast batteries?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Need isolation transformer
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New website created
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Need isolation transformer
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Need isolation transformer
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New website created
by "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New website created
by "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New website created
by "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Who killed the Electric Car in Ohio
by "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Who killed the Electric Car in Ohio
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Charging speed
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Wierd and Wonderful cars WAS Newbie question about batteries
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Need isolation transformer
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Wierd and Wonderful cars WAS Newbie question about batteries
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee:
Sorry I did not give a very complete reply earlier. I'll try to be more
thorough now that I have time. I'll use your numbers:
1. I totally agree array direct as soon and as long as possible will be the
best course. The car must peak power trace the array, and "peak efficiency
track" the motor to have max acceleration. And yes it is well understood
the panels peak power and continuous power, unlike batteries, is the same
thing.
2. Yep Vmp = 56V and 35.7 amps
3,4. The CVT is a solution that can keep the motor at the same RPM, and it
is a possible solution here. We have modeled the CVT using a number of
different pulley sizes and shapes. While we will continue to work on this,
we are a bit dubious that it will be reliable, efficient, give high
repeatability, have an operation curve close to what we need, be able to be
built by high school students. WE are interested if anyone has built a
simple efficient CVT, and we won't give up developing ours, thanks for the
ideas!
I was assuming a buck pwm would be the better choice, and my calculations
given earlier assume that to be the case, but this may turn out not to be
true. The motor needs to accerate to full rpm in the very beginning, and
would you like to use max array current of about 36 amps or maybe 150 amps,
given the same drive ratio? Now one could use a combination of say DC-DC
converter making 12V at 150 amps to get RPMS up and then switch to a CVT,
and we are looking at that too. But I do believe in KISS.
If a CVT were, used, I agree that the pmdc motor would be the better choice,
for the high efficiency, but if a pwm controller is used, using the
controller as the transmission, maybe the series motor is not such a bad
choice. Once I get the curves (have an email to ADC) I can put them in the
model to compare to AGNI.
Thanks again...
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
Offgrid Engineering wrote:
> I think PMDC is a good choice, but a series motor might be good too
Your solar dragster is a special-case problem, because your PV panels are
the only source of power, and they are a constant power device.
Loading them heavier or lighter than optimum produces less power, which
means you accellerate slower (and lose the race).
So, you want your motor/controller/transmission to load the panels at
(about) their peak power point throughout the race, as the car accellerates
from 0 to maximum speed.
Here's how I was approaching the problem:
1. The most efficient controller is NONE. A DC motor, connected
directly to the PV panels. The throttle is just an "on/off" switch.
2. The peak power point occurs at a particular voltage and curent.
3. So, the motor will run at a constant voltage and current. That
implies constant rpm and torque, regardless of vehicle speed.
4. And that implies a CVT (continuously variable transmission).
5. Do some calculations using your PV panel's peak power (2kw?),
motor efficiency at that power (90%?), and the weight of the
car+driver. Find the resultant wheel rpm vs. time with this
constant horsepower.
6. Now, using the motor's constant rpm at this power, you can compute
the CVT ratio as a function of time, to keep the motor loaded to
its correct speed and torque.
7. Design the pulleys of your CVT to achieve this change in ratios.
You can have the ratio change linearly by using a flat band, or
have it change exponentially with a wire that winds up zig-zag
fashion between two unequal-width spools.
> In Excel we modeled the "simple CVT" you suggest and it is a fairly
> linear proportion curve. When you overlay this curve over the
> exponential torque curve from a motor, the two do not line up very
> well.
You're missing that you have a fixed power from the PV panel. Therefore, the
motor has only one operating point. There is no torque-speed curve; just one
operating point for maximum accelleration.
Now, you could use a PWM controller to vary motor voltage while maintaining
peak power loading of the PV panels. But I think you will find that this
automatically means running the motor at points away from its peak
efficiency.
But, it still might "win" if the extra losses in the controller and motor
were less than losses saved by replacing the CVT with a fixed or X-speed
transmission.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
-- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It said "Reserve Capacity" and I took that for Ah. I could be
mistaken. I am kind of new to this.
Brandon Kruger
On 11/25/06, Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are you sure that was Ah and not "reserve minutes"?
It is unusual to find rating in Ah on these batteries.
Danny
Brandon Kruger wrote:
> I checked out my local Autozone today to check out their battery
> selection and found only the Duralast batteries. I looked at
> capacities and prices. I found the 65DLG. The specs seem to be 12V
> 165Ah $79.99 and didnt feel heavier than 40lbs. This seems too good
> to be true. Can someone find out more about these batteries?
>
>
> Brandon Kruger
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the great ideas. I have played with the front alignment,
I use to align my own cars with string gages and a set of 6 foot
calipers I made from square tubing. Unfortunately I always referenced
and assumed the rear was straight. This vehicle has 4 wheel independent
and may need rear alignment. For physical reasons I relly need to have
this done, it is difficult for me to do this on my sloped driveway. Cor
that is a great description of how to adjust the toe. I would only add
that taking a drive around the block between adjustments to help things
settle in before the next measurement also helps.
Because this driveway is not flat. I must have the E brake, but the only
time I saw a difference was when I pryed the rear brake pads apart,
pushing back a little fluid. This car is different than most I have had.
4 wheel disk with the parking brake acting on the caliper piston.
Front wheels spin and no wheel seems hotter than the rest after a drive.
but there is still a little feathering of the rubber on the front wheels
so I am gonna try more toe adjustments tomarrow. BUt I think it is
pretty close.
Rubber bushings and 230,000 miles before conversion. I now recommend
people change all the bushings after they get the ICE out and before
they add all the EV stuff.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Even if it's RC, that still seems too good to be true. Is it a deep
cycle battery? 40 pounds would be great! I can't find any info googling
this, did you get the model number exactly right? This would be a great
battery.
- Tony
Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It said "Reserve Capacity" and I took
that for Ah. I could be
mistaken. I am kind of new to this.
Brandon Kruger
On 11/25/06, Danny Miller wrote:
> Are you sure that was Ah and not "reserve minutes"?
> It is unusual to find rating in Ah on these batteries.
>
> Danny
>
> Brandon Kruger wrote:
>
> > I checked out my local Autozone today to check out their battery
> > selection and found only the Duralast batteries. I looked at
> > capacities and prices. I found the 65DLG. The specs seem to be 12V
> > 165Ah $79.99 and didnt feel heavier than 40lbs. This seems too good
> > to be true. Can someone find out more about these batteries?
> >
> >
> > Brandon Kruger
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
I'm pretty sure that is a Freeway.
> The "photo #1" has a rather interesting 3-wheeler in it, one I don't think
> I've ever seen before. It looks a little like a slightly gawky early
> version of the Corbin Sparrow. Anybody recognize it?
>
> http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pN1mp8dKYgTE6QRhytyEUoBJ5bD00PlQ4wc1OL1fI63I
> YOnMpPLB6ZGvvI2p5FtheGQ_2LSY_MmqzZZECmoHJ5DOqtp6Hy1oes7pSzs68qv12GJkRKU0Low
>
> http://tinyurl.com/wyxgn
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> It said "Reserve Capacity" and I took that for Ah. I could be
> mistaken. I am kind of new to this.
Reserve capacity is how many minutes the battery can run while putting out
25 amps.
FWIW Flooded 12V deep cycle batteries are generally a poor choice for an EV.
> Brandon Kruger
>
> On 11/25/06, Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Are you sure that was Ah and not "reserve minutes"?
>> It is unusual to find rating in Ah on these batteries.
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> Brandon Kruger wrote:
>>
>> > I checked out my local Autozone today to check out their battery
>> > selection and found only the Duralast batteries. I looked at
>> > capacities and prices. I found the 65DLG. The specs seem to be 12V
>> > 165Ah $79.99 and didnt feel heavier than 40lbs. This seems too good
>> > to be true. Can someone find out more about these batteries?
>> >
>> >
>> > Brandon Kruger
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, actually I think the 65-DLG is actually a starting battery, not a
deep cycle.
Starting batteries tend to have higher energy storage capacity than deep
cycles, they just don't last long when deep cycled.
>
> Even if it's RC, that still seems too good to be true. Is it a deep
> cycle battery? 40 pounds would be great! I can't find any info googling
> this, did you get the model number exactly right? This would be a great
> battery.
>
> - Tony
>
>
> Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It said "Reserve Capacity" and I
> took that for Ah. I could be
> mistaken. I am kind of new to this.
>
> Brandon Kruger
>
> On 11/25/06, Danny Miller wrote:
>> Are you sure that was Ah and not "reserve minutes"?
>> It is unusual to find rating in Ah on these batteries.
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> Brandon Kruger wrote:
>>
>> > I checked out my local Autozone today to check out their battery
>> > selection and found only the Duralast batteries. I looked at
>> > capacities and prices. I found the 65DLG. The specs seem to be 12V
>> > 165Ah $79.99 and didnt feel heavier than 40lbs. This seems too good
>> > to be true. Can someone find out more about these batteries?
>> >
>> >
>> > Brandon Kruger
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At Hollywood Video in Woostock neighborhood of Portland tonite I noticed
there were 3 rows of WKTEC videos, with half of them rented...not bad.
-MT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reserve Capacity is typically minutes at 25 amp discharge until v=10.5v
(or some similar "dead" criteria), but technically a mfg can define it
with different parameters and a few do (but this is rare). RC is never
amp-hrs.
165 min * 25 amps / (60 min/hr) = 68.75 Ah.
Danny
Brandon Kruger wrote:
It said "Reserve Capacity" and I took that for Ah. I could be
mistaken. I am kind of new to this.
Brandon Kruger
On 11/25/06, Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are you sure that was Ah and not "reserve minutes"?
It is unusual to find rating in Ah on these batteries.
Danny
Brandon Kruger wrote:
> I checked out my local Autozone today to check out their battery
> selection and found only the Duralast batteries. I looked at
> capacities and prices. I found the 65DLG. The specs seem to be 12V
> 165Ah $79.99 and didnt feel heavier than 40lbs. This seems too good
> to be true. Can someone find out more about these batteries?
>
>
> Brandon Kruger
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A question: I need an isolation transformer. 3kw capacity, 240 volts to
208 volts. This is for safety and to step down 240 volts a bit for
faster charging.
Anyone know where might I find one of these? Are they items that can be
found in a local electrician's shop?
Thanks
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Nov 2006 at 20:16, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that is a Freeway.
Yep, I think you're right. It looks very similar to this one :
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/053.html
except that the turn signals are hung under the bumper instead of being
integrated into the hood.
Very interesting. I've read about the Freeway for years, but until now had
never even seen a photo of one.
Thanks for the info.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does it have to be an isolation transformer? A
non-isolated bucking transformer would be much smaller
(read: cheaper).
- Steven Ciciora
--- Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A question: I need an isolation transformer. 3kw
> capacity, 240 volts to
> 208 volts. This is for safety and to step down 240
> volts a bit for
> faster charging.
>
> Anyone know where might I find one of these? Are
> they items that can be
> found in a local electrician's shop?
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My lab uses many of these. We recently bought a 75kVA one!
McMaster-Carr carries something similar to what you need (7131K23) if
you have one-phase power. But you'll probably need three-phase power in
order to find one with that kind of step-down (since it results from a
wye-delta conversion) unless you remove turns on the transformer (an
easier solution). The one I listed is $320 and probably weighs 100lbs.
- Arthur
On Sat, 2006-11-25 at 23:02 -0500, Chris Zach wrote:
> A question: I need an isolation transformer. 3kw capacity, 240 volts to
> 208 volts. This is for safety and to step down 240 volts a bit for
> faster charging.
>
> Anyone know where might I find one of these? Are they items that can be
> found in a local electrician's shop?
>
> Thanks
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David:
It's called a "Freeway High Mileage Vehicle. My dad was an investor and
Central NY Dealer for them in the 1980's. Came in 2 styles-Tecumseh ICE &
electric version-I provided the Freeway tech manuals in pdf file form on my
www.elecars.spaces.live.com<http://www.elecars.spaces.live.com/> site Dad
passed away in 2002 complications of Diabetes. Until the P.O.A. of his estate
sold them last year dad had 4 new Freeway vehicles. They were sold to a
Canadian firm. Dad was a retired USAF Col. Don B. Davidson Jr. Lots more
details at my websites.
Don B. Davidson III
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: New website created
The "photo #1" has a rather interesting 3-wheeler in it, one I don't think
I've ever seen before. It looks a little like a slightly gawky early
version of the Corbin Sparrow. Anybody recognize it?
http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pN1mp8dKYgTE6QRhytyEUoBJ5bD00PlQ4wc1OL1fI63I<http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pN1mp8dKYgTE6QRhytyEUoBJ5bD00PlQ4wc1OL1fI63I>
YOnMpPLB6ZGvvI2p5FtheGQ_2LSY_MmqzZZECmoHJ5DOqtp6Hy1oes7pSzs68qv12GJkRKU0Low
http://tinyurl.com/wyxgn<http://tinyurl.com/wyxgn>
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how:
http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/> .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you read the blog entries there's plenty of details and pdf files of the
tech manuals provided in pdf file form under the Links section at the top of
the page of my www.elecars.spaces.live.com<http://www.elecars.spaces.live.com/>
website describing the Freeway High Mileage Vehicle. I share information at
the Yahoo Freeway discussion list. There are two electric Freeways posted on
the austinev.org website Wish one of them were mine, but dad's P.O.A. sold them
before I could claim any. Again, my dad, Col. Don B. Davidson Jr., USAF Retired
was an investor of and dealer for the Freeway High Mileage Vehicle company back
in the 1980's
Any questions-comments-email me and I'll answer them.
Don B. Davidson III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: New website created
Hi Dave,
I'm pretty sure that is a Freeway.
> The "photo #1" has a rather interesting 3-wheeler in it, one I don't think
> I've ever seen before. It looks a little like a slightly gawky early
> version of the Corbin Sparrow. Anybody recognize it?
>
>
http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pN1mp8dKYgTE6QRhytyEUoBJ5bD00PlQ4wc1OL1fI63I<http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pN1mp8dKYgTE6QRhytyEUoBJ5bD00PlQ4wc1OL1fI63I>
> YOnMpPLB6ZGvvI2p5FtheGQ_2LSY_MmqzZZECmoHJ5DOqtp6Hy1oes7pSzs68qv12GJkRKU0Low
>
> http://tinyurl.com/wyxgn<http://tinyurl.com/wyxgn>
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how:
http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/> .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden
Talk to me and study my website-the pdf files under the links section at the
top of my www.elecars.spaces.live.com<http://www.elecars.spaces.live.com/>
webpage. I'll tell you anything you'd like to know re: the Freeway. Plenty of
reading in my blog entries as well as the pdf file links at the top of my
webpage. Just click on them and you will get several documents and tech manuals
re: Freeway and many other EV related items.
Participate with the Freeway discussion list to learn more: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Talk to Michael Perry there. He's the creator of that discussion group.
I also created another website:
www.dbd3.spaces.live.com<http://www.dbd3.spaces.live.com/> that has more
folders of photos. Please read the blog entries and at both sites there are
many separate folders of photos once you discover how to open each individual
folder and access the "archives". I've been documenting my progress restoring
several cars in my collection.
I am about to post another 4 pdf files with extensive EV related documents at
my "elecars" website I located in my dad's collection dating back to the late
1970's I think you will find them interesting and historically significant.
Don B. Davidson III
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: New website created
On 25 Nov 2006 at 20:16, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that is a Freeway.
Yep, I think you're right. It looks very similar to this one :
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/053.html<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/053.html>
except that the turn signals are hung under the bumper instead of being
integrated into the hood.
Very interesting. I've read about the Freeway for years, but until now had
never even seen a photo of one.
Thanks for the info.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how:
http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/> .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bought the entire inventory of 4 copies of WKTEC from Block Buster Video in
Rome, NY to be given as Christmas gifts. As suggested, I will donate copies to
the local public libraries and Church library, as well.
Don't worry-Block Buster still has rental copies available in Rome, NY
Don B. Davidson III
----- Original Message -----
From: Myles Twete<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 10:43 PM
Subject: RE: Who killed the Electric Car in Ohio
At Hollywood Video in Woostock neighborhood of Portland tonite I noticed
there were 3 rows of WKTEC videos, with half of them rented...not bad.
-MT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:42 PM
Subject: Who killed the Electric Car in Ohio
> I just asked the lady at the front desk of our local
> library if they had "Who killed the Electric Car".
> They said the DVD is on order and there are 26 holds
> in front of my request! I had no idea there would be
> this kind of demand for that movie in Northeast Ohio.
Hi Rod an' EVerybody;
I bought two copies of WKtEC, one to donate to my local library. Was
gunna drop it off Monday, ask them to sorta "Feature" it. Like stand it up
in the "New Arrivals" dept, instead of stuffing it in with all the other
silly movies.See if it goes out? My other copy has been passed around to
family and friends. Seems like EVerybody has heard of it, but it never made
the Cinema 1 through Too Many around here. It showed in New Haven about a
week, and sorta faded away, although it got a decent feature article in our
local paper" Batteries Included" was the header.So it's up to me.I tried
like hell to get my local"Arts" theater guy to show it back to back with
"Inconvenient Truth" But he never did. I thought they would make a great two
screen run together. I bought I.T. to to show WITH WKtEC to anybody that
wanted a twofur night?
> Maybe Myers Motors inspired some interest! They are
> located about 10 miles from this library and the local
> newspaper, "The Akron Beacon Journal" has had a couple
> of articles about Myers Motors recently.
> Maybe David Roden is on that waiting list?
> Anyhow, just kind of surprised at the long waiting
> list.
> Rod, visiting the local library with the kids and
> driving the wifes SUV :-(
> Ah David probably bough his OWN copy?<g>!?
Seeya
Bob
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date: 11/25/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
Nice job on the "Skunk"!
The first purpose of charging is to replace the energy
taken out of the battery.
This is rather independent on the time it was used, much
more on how hard it was used, as the energy is expressed
in Amps times Hours (Ah) at the battery voltage.
Suppose you take the MC for a spin and you ride 1/2 hour
while consuming an average 200 Amp from the batteries.
That means that 200A x 1/2h = 100Ah is removed from the
batteries that you need to replace with a recharge.
You will need to put in slightly more than 100Ah because
the charging of a battery is not 100% efficient. You have
already noticed that they can bubble: part of the energy
is used in electrolysis, creating Hydrogen and Oxigen in
the cells and stirring up the liquid electrolyte between
the plates.
The first part (gas production) is unwanted, but the
electrolyte in flooded cells needs to be stirred to mix
it up occasionally, so the gassing is a good thing.
Mixing is necessary because over time the electrolyte
will not always be homogenous, due to discharge (or
charge) current distribution difference, there may be
local spots of heavier or lighter electrolyte which will
sink or rise and cause a layering in the electrolyte.
Vigorous gassing during the end part of the charging
can help to mix the electrolyte better and insure a
better use of the battery capacity.
Say that you need to replace 20% extra AmpHours, so you
need to put 120Ah in your batteries.
(An Emeter can give you an accurate reading and this is
only an example that depends on battery chemistry, as
for example NiMH needs to be charged with 150% of the
current removed)
With a 10 Amp charger you need 120Ah/10A = 12 hours to
charge the batteries, but since the charger tapers back
during the last part of the charge cycle, it takes longer.
With a 40Amp charger, you could charge in 3 hours if the
charger did not taper back, but it needs to, to avoid
damage to the batteries (from over-charging).
Since you parallel two stings of 260Ah batteries to get a
520Ah pack, charging it at 40A is a good level.
(520Ah/40A = 13h, well within the 6 to 18h Lee recommended)
Most batteries have a max charge current specified. Mine
have 30A max (for 110Ah batteries) so in theory I could
charge them in under 4 hours from flat, but I am always
charging at 10A to keep it safe and that is fast enough.
I know that I could draw 50Amp from the range outlet and
pump 30A into the pack. Last week Eddie DaRocha parked
in my driveway with his Saturn and crancked his charger
up to 50 Amps on my request. He can go to 80 Amps, but
this was already the highest he has ever taken it and
the 2x50A breakers already became handwarm in this time.
After sucking down 12kW for 1/2 hour the battery lights
started to come on and the charger started tapering back
and I knew that my house wiring can take delivering 50A
and my NEMA 10-50 extension cord can bring that power
to the driveway for a fast charge.
To go back to the issue: you can use the 10Amp charger
for on-the-road charging if the Lester is too heavy to
carry with you, but you definitely need to charge with
the Lester's 40A frequently (like once a week or after
every few times driving) to stir up the electrolyte and
"wake up" the batteries.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 9:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charging speed
More info,
I have a Shumacher 10 amp with three different settings for manual, low
maintenance, and I believe sealed. I also have a Lester 40 amp automatic
which claims to be rated for 300-450 AH flooded lead acid battery sets. I
am charging 8 T145 260 AH batteries. The chargers are 24 volt units and I
have been charging the batteries in parallel strings. This should make them
a 520 AH pack as far as the charging is concerned.
The Lester does it fairly quickly, starts at 40 amps and does taper down to
less than 10 amps before it shuts itself off. The Shumacher starts at 8-10
amps and tapers down to less than 2 amps before it shuts itself off. I have
it set for the low maintenance selection.
The Shumacher can take 24 hours or more and the Lester can be as short as 3
hours. I don't know what my depth of discharge is for sure. Yesterday
after going over 20 miles I checked the standing voltage after about 10
minutes and it read 24.7 volts on each half of the pack or just under 70
percent based on the chart I downloaded form the Trojan site. This was the
longest ride so far as all the others have been 5 to 12 miles and the
standing voltage has been 25.1 or above at the end of the ride.
My main concern is that with the Lester I can hear the batteries bubbling as
they are charging. They don't seem to be taking a lot of watering and the
cases are not even warm to the touch. The only cell that has put water onto
the top of the battery is one that I got over full when I did water. I am
using a battery fill bottle with an automatic valve that usually stops just
about 1/8 inch below the split ring in the fill neck and I filled some time
after the charge cycle was finished. I think I must have gotten the filler
onto something other than the top of the fill neck on that one.
I'm just trying to not kill my first EV battery pack. All of my other
battery equipment uses timer based chargers and the rule of thumb has been
charge as many hours at the equipment was used. ie 8 hour charge for an 8
hour shift of use, 2 hour charge for a 2 hour job.
John
58 Harley conversion
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: Charging speed
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Is there an advantage to charging slower on lead acid batteries?
>
> Like most things, there is an optimal charge rate. Either higher or
> lower causes problems. Luckily, there is a very broad range of
> acceptable charging rates. Any charging time between 6 and 18 hours is
> good.
>
> If you charge faster, then the charging process is less efficient; the
> battery gets hot, and energy is wasted in heat. You also don't have
> enough time to quite reach full charge, so you get a bit less amphour
> capacity.
>
> If you charge slower, you again lose efficiency, though now it occurs at
> the end of the charge cycle. The wasted energy goes into extra gassing
> in a flooded, or heat in a sealed battery.
>
> Remember too that you can't apply the same current throughout the charge
> cycle. You need a charging algorithm that adjust the current; high when
> less than 80% charged, and tapering down as you approach 100%.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
> I can understand the goal, really poor efficiency is OK if cheap enough.
>
> I'd suggest if you want homemade car power that you not use electricity,
> consider a wind-up spring. How much range you can get from one that
> isn't a massive safety issue I don't know, haven't done any calculations
Don't laugh, sport fans! It was tried over 100 years ago, with poor
success, to run streetcars. Back in the 1880's several companies tried
"Clockwork" cars. If ya ever had a Victrola apart, there is a big spring
cannister, that you wind up to play tunes.BTW if you EVer take one apart,
for God's sake,DON'T open it up!You will have a room full of angry, coil
springs glowering at you, in a nanosecond!!! Larger versions were proposed,
many linked together, wound up at the shop for the daze festivities. I
haven't found any range data, so I guess they wern't a roaring success<g>?A
bit high strung? Air cars DID work, back then, cars actually ran in Rome NY
on about a 8 mile run. A airpipe was laid along the route to charge them if
they ran out of breath, short of the end of the line. But then cable and
ELECTRIC cars came in.Electric seemed, back then, as far out as air and
clockwork cars.
At an Electa thon, some of the kids actually BUILT a spring car! Using
one of those fearsome garage door springs wound up, they went several
hundred feet!Was an interesting concept. Both air cars and Clockwork cars
could "Regen" like hell, though. Wind 'er up" could have had new meanings,
going down hill?Of course Steam was a serious contender for trolley
propulsion, but smoke and soot from them was frowned upon in city streets. I
guess not much was thought about about Horse Exhaust?! Rather have soot and
cinders than horse shit in the street! Anybody who has been in NYC for the
Central Park Buggy rides , on a hot day, can get a whiff of 19th century
traction!ANYTHING would be an inprovement over horses?EVen the newest ones
don't have emission controls, to this day.They are starting to clean up
Diseasels, too,nowadaze
My two horses worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Chris,
We normally purchase transformers from a wholesale electrical supply house.
They will be either a Square D, General Electric, Westinghouse. You may have
to go to a electrical shop to get a purchase order to buy from a wholesale
electrical supply company.
If you are isolation for power only, then use a Single Phase - General
Purpose Transformer 3kva 60 Hz Dry Type Metal Clad type rated at 600 volts
and below standard stock transformer with 240/480 primary that have four
taps and a secondary that has 120/240 with four taps.
These are the cheapest type of transformer which will cost about $500.00
You parallel the primary for 240 volts input and series the secondary leads
for a three lead output of 120/240 volts.
Ground only the case of the transformer with the incoming AC ground. You
can develop a separate ground by tapping of the center lead between the two
120 volt coils which is used for ground any of your load devices enclosures
but do not connect this ground to the transformer case.
The closes you can get for a 208 volt output is to use a open type
Industrial Control Dry Transformer in the 3000 VA rating with primary of
208/277 volts and a secondary of 120 volts. Here you input 120 VAC into
the secondary and you come out the secondary at the 208 volt taps. You are
using this type of transformer as a step up type.
If you want a 240 volt input, then you would need two of these transformers
where you series the 120 volts leads of the secondary of both transformer
for a 240 volt input and parallel the primary leads for a 208 volt output.
If you order a custom transformer for 240 primary and a 208 secondary, you
are going to get the same as the above two transformer, except it will be
two coils on one frame.
The normal way we get a 208 volt output, is using three 240 volt primary and
120 volt secondary transformers on a three phase incoming lines connected up
in Delta on the primary and the secondary connected up in wye.
You are best to either used a standard stock 240/480 Primary and 120/240
secondary or special order a 208/277 Primary and a 120 volt secondary which
you input your AC leads into the secondary as a step up.
Don't ask for a isolation transformers, these are special filter units
normally used for communications and electronic systems. These units
normally start at $2500.00 and up.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 9:02 PM
Subject: Need isolation transformer
> A question: I need an isolation transformer. 3kw capacity, 240 volts to
> 208 volts. This is for safety and to step down 240 volts a bit for
> faster charging.
>
> Anyone know where might I find one of these? Are they items that can be
> found in a local electrician's shop?
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On topic comment: On the spring thing, think about toy cars. Spring or flywheel
ones don't go very far, but electric ones can go pretty far.
Off topic comment: Believe it or not, the horse carriage rides in Salt Lake
City have emissions control devices on the horses. A small fabric ramp directs
the emissions down to a collector below the carriage.
----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:58:41 PM
Subject: Wierd and Wonderful cars WAS Newbie question about batteries
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
> I can understand the goal, really poor efficiency is OK if cheap enough.
>
> I'd suggest if you want homemade car power that you not use electricity,
> consider a wind-up spring. How much range you can get from one that
> isn't a massive safety issue I don't know, haven't done any calculations
Don't laugh, sport fans! It was tried over 100 years ago, with poor
success, to run streetcars. Back in the 1880's several companies tried
"Clockwork" cars. If ya ever had a Victrola apart, there is a big spring
cannister, that you wind up to play tunes.BTW if you EVer take one apart,
for God's sake,DON'T open it up!You will have a room full of angry, coil
springs glowering at you, in a nanosecond!!! Larger versions were proposed,
many linked together, wound up at the shop for the daze festivities. I
haven't found any range data, so I guess they wern't a roaring success<g>?A
bit high strung? Air cars DID work, back then, cars actually ran in Rome NY
on about a 8 mile run. A airpipe was laid along the route to charge them if
they ran out of breath, short of the end of the line. But then cable and
ELECTRIC cars came in.Electric seemed, back then, as far out as air and
clockwork cars.
At an Electa thon, some of the kids actually BUILT a spring car! Using
one of those fearsome garage door springs wound up, they went several
hundred feet!Was an interesting concept. Both air cars and Clockwork cars
could "Regen" like hell, though. Wind 'er up" could have had new meanings,
going down hill?Of course Steam was a serious contender for trolley
propulsion, but smoke and soot from them was frowned upon in city streets. I
guess not much was thought about about Horse Exhaust?! Rather have soot and
cinders than horse shit in the street! Anybody who has been in NYC for the
Central Park Buggy rides , on a hot day, can get a whiff of 19th century
traction!ANYTHING would be an inprovement over horses?EVen the newest ones
don't have emission controls, to this day.They are starting to clean up
Diseasels, too,nowadaze
My two horses worth.
Bob
____________________________________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
--- End Message ---
