EV Digest 6170
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charging speed
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: How do decrease Wh/mile
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: How do decrease Wh/mile
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: How do decrease Wh/mile
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Who killed the Electric Car in Ohio
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Who killed the Electric Car in Ohio
by "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: How do decrease Wh/mile
by Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Who killed the Electric Car in Ohio
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Fun Playmate or Appliance. Was- Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: How do decrease Wh/mile
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: F3e Concept Electric Car Powered by Iron-based Battery
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Photos on-line
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Duralast batteries?
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re:Current Eliminator dragster news
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Duralast batteries?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: New website created
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
More info,
I have a Shumacher 10 amp with three different settings for manual, low
maintenance, and I believe sealed. I also have a Lester 40 amp automatic
which claims to be rated for 300-450 AH flooded lead acid battery sets. I
am charging 8 T145 260 AH batteries. The chargers are 24 volt units and I
have been charging the batteries in parallel strings. This should make them
a 520 AH pack as far as the charging is concerned.
The Lester does it fairly quickly, starts at 40 amps and does taper down to
less than 10 amps before it shuts itself off. The Shumacher starts at 8-10
amps and tapers down to less than 2 amps before it shuts itself off. I have
it set for the low maintenance selection.
The Shumacher can take 24 hours or more and the Lester can be as short as 3
hours. I don't know what my depth of discharge is for sure. Yesterday
after going over 20 miles I checked the standing voltage after about 10
minutes and it read 24.7 volts on each half of the pack or just under 70
percent based on the chart I downloaded form the Trojan site. This was the
longest ride so far as all the others have been 5 to 12 miles and the
standing voltage has been 25.1 or above at the end of the ride.
My main concern is that with the Lester I can hear the batteries bubbling as
they are charging. They don't seem to be taking a lot of watering and the
cases are not even warm to the touch. The only cell that has put water onto
the top of the battery is one that I got over full when I did water. I am
using a battery fill bottle with an automatic valve that usually stops just
about 1/8 inch below the split ring in the fill neck and I filled some time
after the charge cycle was finished. I think I must have gotten the filler
onto something other than the top of the fill neck on that one.
I'm just trying to not kill my first EV battery pack. All of my other
battery equipment uses timer based chargers and the rule of thumb has been
charge as many hours at the equipment was used. ie 8 hour charge for an 8
hour shift of use, 2 hour charge for a 2 hour job.
John
58 Harley conversion
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: Charging speed
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Is there an advantage to charging slower on lead acid batteries?
Like most things, there is an optimal charge rate. Either higher or
lower causes problems. Luckily, there is a very broad range of
acceptable charging rates. Any charging time between 6 and 18 hours is
good.
If you charge faster, then the charging process is less efficient; the
battery gets hot, and energy is wasted in heat. You also don't have
enough time to quite reach full charge, so you get a bit less amphour
capacity.
If you charge slower, you again lose efficiency, though now it occurs at
the end of the charge cycle. The wasted energy goes into extra gassing
in a flooded, or heat in a sealed battery.
Remember too that you can't apply the same current throughout the charge
cycle. You need a charging algorithm that adjust the current; high when
less than 80% charged, and tapering down as you approach 100%.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I am in desperate need of improving my range... it tends to get
> around 420 wh/mile... things I think can cause poor performance
>
> Dragging brakes
> Bad alignment
> Series Motor timing too advanced for vehicle weight.
> Tight wheel bearings
> Low tire pressure
> Air drag
> Cold batteries
> Not fully charged
>
> Have I forgotten anything?
> What, in your opinion, could be the worst offender?
All of these things (and more) could be responsible. You really have to
do some detective work and experiments to see what the problem is.
I'd start right in your garage. How hard is it to push the car by hand?
A 1% rolling resistance means it takes 40 lbs to push a 4000 lbs car.
This is readily achievable in normal cars when you get the details
right.
If it's higher than this, look for soft tires, high rolling resistance
tires, dragging brakes, wheel alignment problems, mis-adjusted wheel
bearings, etc.
You can check, and adjust wheel alignment yourself. For rolling
resistance, toe-in is the main concern. Measure the distance between the
front edges, and the rear edges of the tires. They should be the same.
If smaller in the front, you have toe-in. Figure out how it's adjusted,
and adjust it to be as close to zero as you can get.
Jack up each wheel, and spin it by hand. Good properly adjusted wheel
bearings should let the tire make a few complete revolutions before it
stops.
You can also tell if you have dragging brakes. Most disk brakes drag. It
can be hard to get them not to drag. The rubber seal is supposed to pull
the pad back, but it rarely works for long. You may have to add a spring
to reliably pull the pads back.
You can jack up the drive wheels, and measure the motor current to see
how much torque it takes to run the drive train. The motor alone should
run on less than 25 amps, and shouldn't go past 50 amps in gear and
spinning the tires. (Note that this is motor current, not battery
current).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff,
Before I tell you what I did to correct my alignment,
first how to detect the major factor in it:
Even if you can't afford going to the alignment shop,
the major thing influencing your drag is the toe-in
and it's not very difficult to check. I use 2 methods:
1. place the car on level surface, wheels straight,
all brakes off and transmission in neutral.
(If your car won't stay, the surface is not level)
Push the car forward, then backward by hand.
2. With the wheels straight and the car rolled a few
feet forward and backward, glance alongside the
front wheels to the rear wheels. When looking at
hub height and aligning front and rear sidewall of
the front wheel, where does this line take you?
If the front and rear track width is the same,
then ideally your front wheels should exactly line
up with your rear wheels.
If the front steering is not exactly straight, then
you can miss the rear wheel by 1 inch for example
at one side, the other side should slice 1 inch off
the rear wheel to make up the difference.
If front and rear track width are not identical then
you need to compensate for this. If rear is 1/2 inch
wider than front, ideally you should see 1/4 inch at
each side if your wheels are straight.
Remember to roll the car a few feet if you turn the
steering to get the wheels straight, so everyting can
settle.
When pushing the car takes more than a few fingers, you
need a hand and in particular if the pushing starts easy
but becomes more and more difficult after a foot or so,
when pushing the other direction it seems to want to
return to the spot 1 foot back, then one foot more it
again becomes difficult to push, then you either have
a dip in your level surface or you have a toe-in/-out
problem. Repeat with the car in a different spot to
check for the "dip".
Also check the sidewall flex: do you see the tire move
inward or outward while pushing? that is a sure sign of
an extreme toe-in or -out problem.
Glancing along the front wheels, try to mark where they
hit or miss the rear wheels. Add the two differences
together, for example if the right side misses by 1 inch
while the left side slices 1/2 inch off the rear wheel
then the total is 1" + (-1/2)" = 1/2"
I use negative when hitting the rear wheel.
Now add the difference in track width between front and
rear, positive if rear is wider than front.
Say that rear is 1 inch wider than front, so add the
previous result:
1/2" + 1" = 1.5"
If you know the distance between front and rear wheels
you can calculate the angle of toe-in.
You want to get it as close as possible to zero, so unless
you want to calculate how large the correction needs to be
there is no calculation involved, more a trial-and-error.
How to correct toe-in?
Most modern cars are setup in the same way: steering
wheel moves a rod from right to left, each end of this
rod is connected via flexible couplings to the wheel.
The place they connect to the wheel is off-axis on a
little arm. This makes the left/right movement result in
turning the wheel right/left.
The rods towards the wheels have thread on them, they
consist of a hollow tube with inside thread and a solid
thread. They are locked in place with a nut to avoid they
turn while driving, changing the lenght of this rod,
which affects the angle of one wheel.
My car had this rod and arm behind the front axle, so
my toe-in was caused by a too long rod to the wheels.
I loosened the nut and turned the rod 1x around to make
it shorter (thread disappearing into the thread).
You can check that it is getting shorter by finding that
you need to loosen the nut a whole turn before you can
shorten the rod a whole turn, then it will run against
the nut again. Block the rod with the nut again and
check the alignment again.
I needed several tries to get the toe-in to zero, which
did improve my mileage.
Make sure you tighten the nut on the steering rod after
you are done adjusting!
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 6:47 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: How do decrease Wh/mile
I am in desperate need of improving my range and I think the problem
could be solved with decreasing the wh per mile as it tends to get
around 420 wh/mile
Here is the list of things I think can cause poor performance
Dragging brakes
They seem ok. When I jack up the back it is obviously harder to
turn than the front having to turn the rear end.
Bad alignment
It needs alignment, Just can't afford it and it may need bushings
before I can proceed. Only 1 shop in town will touch this car because
of the independent rear and the complicated 4 wheel alignment necessary.
Comical.
Series Motor timing too advanced for vehicle weight.
It appears to lug and not come into the sweet spot until about 3000
rpm. On the rare day where I hit every light green on my commute, it
takes 2.1kwh for the 6 miles or the 350wh/mile . When I catch every
light it takes 2.7 for 450 wh/mile My Comm is dark brown with some
streaking looks like blotch film + dark patina on
http://www.morgancarbon.com/technicalsupport/patina.htm
tight wheel bearings
The front wheels spin if jacked up but the rear ones turn but won't
spin, too much rear end drag.
low tire pressure.
I keep all 4 at 50 psi (they are rated for 44) The vehicle weights
4050Lbs.
Air drag
1987 300zx, a sports car, shouldn't be too bad.
On the other side of the equation :
Cold batteries
Wow, I have really felt this recently
Not fully charged
My emeter never resets, I never see the blue light on the charger, I
am not sure if I am chargeing these agms properly.
Every charge the green LEDs get to flashing and it becomes a push. I
fear the reduced current caused by the regs is to low to overcome the
internal resistance of the remaining batteries and it is just lost.
So in an AGM string with regs on it, is the battery charged when the
green LED is flashing or is it at 80%, still in need of some charge? Is
there an "equalize"
Have I forgotten anything?
What, in your opinion, could be the worst offender?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can understand the goal, really poor efficiency is OK if cheap enough.
I'd suggest if you want homemade car power that you not use electricity,
consider a wind-up spring. How much range you can get from one that
isn't a massive safety issue I don't know, haven't done any calculations
on it, but I'd check into that first before thinking about making
batteries. And btw, you can use old car batteries that are cheap, they
just won't last very long, but if cheap enough perhaps replacing them
every few months isn't unreasonable.
Jack
Geopilot wrote:
The goal is not to meet the form factor of current batteries or their
weight to power ratio.
The real key is can you get enough juice to run a reason electric car
for reasonable distance and time from home made electric storage
materials for a lot less than you can buy modern batteries. The WH/KG
ratio is far down that list. I don't care if it has a triple KG ratio if
i could build them for 10% of the wh cost and just shove them all in a
van. 0 to 60 is not most people's goal.
The cost of the batteries today takes a home made ev out of the realm of
a lot of tinkerers. Many people have old jalopies,vans or pickups and
can get an old forklift motor for a few hundred but will choke on
$10,000 for batteries. If you can offer them an alternative power
storage source that can be homemade for under $1000 then we have something.
That's the goal.
And why in the world would anyone want to use old wooden boxes just
because that's what they did in 1910?
Saying you can make a better transport vehicle doesn't mean learning to
grow cheaper horses because that's what powered couches in the 1800's.
So no I suggest won't suggest working with wooden boxes.
You kind of miss the point of trying to get 80% for 10% of the cost.
Also what I mean by 80% - it isn't wh/kg related. It's total power related.
I am convinced that rethinking ev means also rethinking a cars form
factor. Suince homemade electric storage might not have the power to
size ratio you instead choose to go with a longer vehicle -like almost a
RV form factor ( but not loaded with furniture and the extra weight!)
I think the first self charging low ev's buildable by a home builder
will need to be more along the lines of rv size to hold reasonable watt
hours in a cheap homebuilt form as well as providing roof area to allow
some amount of self charging.
The idea we need to be replicating a sports car form factor is silly.
My goal would be more along the lines of a self charging land cruiser
which could go across the country at no cost by self charging with
frequent stops. After all when you don't have to pay for gas then size
efficiency is less important.
Especially since with self charging electrics you meet a huge
diminishing returns point that reverses as roof size gets small.
David Roden wrote:
On 22 Nov 2006 at 16:07, GWMobile wrote:
Man you'd think you guys had never made a lemon acid battery.
Of course I have. But I didn't try to run an EV on it! ;-)
There's a HUGE gulf between a simple grade-school experiment and a
practical energy source for a 1200kg EV.
Yes forming charge is discussed but not called that.
I've seen this in old books, too.
The point for the home builder is can you get 80% of modern for 10%
of cost.
Right?
I await the evidence from you. You're making authoritative
statements, but you don't offer any evidence for them.
It's one thing to say, "I can make a battery." Any high school kid
with a decent education (I hope there are a few) can do that - there's
your lemon juice battery, the one I made when I was 6 or 8 years old.
It's quite another matter to claim that you can make a practical,
usable EV battery. And, please forgive me, but claiming that, using a
wooden box and plain lead plates, you can make a battery that supplies
80% of the performance of a rather well optimized modern lead battery
stretches my credulity a bit.
I want to see you build it.
The best modern lead batteries will produce a specific energy of 36
Wh/kg. But I'll ask you only to match 80% of a typical golf car
battery's performance. Here are the aspects of performance I would
like you to meet within 80% :
- cycle life = 650- 800 cycles
- specific energy = 28 Wh/kg
- energy density = 55 Wh/l
Your battery should also be capable of producing 120 volts or more at
75 amps or more continously, and 400 amps or more for at least one
minute, to be a reasonably practical EV battery. You will have to
demonstrate this performance.
This is my challenge to you. Build your own EV battery according to
the plans you cite, using commonly available materials. No cheating
and buying premade cases, grids, separators, or any other parts from
battery industry suppliers! This battery must be made with
non-battery-specific materials that anyone can buy from a lumberyard,
hardware store, and/or chemical supply house. You must use "large
lead plates hanging in wooden boxes treated to resist the acid."
Fit your EV with this battery. If you don't have a suitable EV for
testing, you can demonstrate its function with a dummy load. It must
produce as described above - 120 volts or more at 75 amps or more
continuously, 400 amps or more for one minute (with 5 minutes between
400 amp demands). If you can't make 120 volts' worth, then you may
extrapolate, but please build at least a 6 volt battery. It will
still have to supply the current discussed above.
Don't forget to measure and weigh the battery before installing it.
You will need these dimensions to calculate the specific energy and
energy density.
Conduct a test period to demonstrate the following performance. Of
course, you are not allowed to rebuild or repair the battery during
the test period; you may only add water as necessary.
Each factor listed is 80% of a golf car battery's :
- cycle life = 520 cycles
- specific energy = 22.4 Wh/kg
- energy density = 44 Wh/l
Just to be clear, here are the definitions :
Cycle life : the number of discharge cycles before capacity falls to
80% of rated capacity (in this case I'll accept your initial measured
capacity as the rated capacity). If I'm not mistaken, a cycle by BCI
standards begins with a fully charged battery. The battery is
discharged to 1.75 volts per cell, then recharged to 100% - one full
cycle.
Specific energy : Watt-hours produced in a 75-amp constant current
discharge to 1.75 volts per cell, divided by the battery's mass in
kilograms.
Energy density : Watt-hours produced in a 75-amp constant current
discharge to 1.75 volts per cell, divided by the battery's volume in
liters.
I'm not going to say it can't be done, but I'll admit I'm skeptical.
Show me that you can build an EV battery that meets this "80% of
modern" standard (actually more like "80% of 1975"), and I'll be
convinced - and impressed.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> You can check, and adjust wheel alignment yourself. For rolling
> resistance, toe-in is the main concern. Measure the distance between the
> front edges, and the rear edges of the tires. They should be the same.
> If smaller in the front, you have toe-in. Figure out how it's adjusted,
> and adjust it to be as close to zero as you can get.
Actually, since we are talking about static toe in here, you want a little
bit of toe. THis is because there is always a little play in the steering
components, especially on oldercars. You want a little toe in (since it's
rear wheel drive) so that when you are moving the drag from the wheels
will take up the play and end up at/near zero toe in.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just asked the lady at the front desk of our local
library if they had "Who killed the Electric Car".
They said the DVD is on order and there are 26 holds
in front of my request! I had no idea there would be
this kind of demand for that movie in Northeast Ohio.
Maybe Myers Motors inspired some interest! They are
located about 10 miles from this library and the local
newspaper, "The Akron Beacon Journal" has had a couple
of articles about Myers Motors recently.
Maybe David Roden is on that waiting list?
Anyhow, just kind of surprised at the long waiting
list.
Rod, visiting the local library with the kids and
driving the wifes SUV :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just picked up my copy of "Who Killed the Electric Car" from Blockbuster Video
in Rome, NY
Don B. Davidson III
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Hower<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:42 PM
Subject: Who killed the Electric Car in Ohio
I just asked the lady at the front desk of our local
library if they had "Who killed the Electric Car".
They said the DVD is on order and there are 26 holds
in front of my request! I had no idea there would be
this kind of demand for that movie in Northeast Ohio.
Maybe Myers Motors inspired some interest! They are
located about 10 miles from this library and the local
newspaper, "The Akron Beacon Journal" has had a couple
of articles about Myers Motors recently.
Maybe David Roden is on that waiting list?
Anyhow, just kind of surprised at the long waiting
list.
Rod, visiting the local library with the kids and
driving the wifes SUV :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello!
Here is a quick and simple measurement that gives an idea of the toe-
in value.
Park the car and try to center the steering exactly. Measure with a
measuring tape the distance between the left shoulder of the left
tire and the right shoulder of the right tire.
Take two measurements, one at the front of the tires and second at
the back of the tires. The ideal place is at the axle height but
normally you cannot do this because the body and motor and whatever
is blocking the tape so you have to measure a bit lower where you can
pull the tape freely under the car. But pay attention that you
measure at the same height both front and rear.
Then just compare the two values. If they are the same, the toe-in is
appr. zero. If front is more, you have toe-out. If back is more you
have toe-in. If there is a big difference, you have a problem.
Seppo
Cor van de Water kirjoitti 25.11.2006 kello 21.20:
Hi Jeff,
Before I tell you what I did to correct my alignment,
first how to detect the major factor in it:
Even if you can't afford going to the alignment shop,
the major thing influencing your drag is the toe-in
and it's not very difficult to check. I use 2 methods:
1. place the car on level surface, wheels straight,
all brakes off and transmission in neutral.
(If your car won't stay, the surface is not level)
Push the car forward, then backward by hand.
2. With the wheels straight and the car rolled a few
feet forward and backward, glance alongside the
front wheels to the rear wheels. When looking at
hub height and aligning front and rear sidewall of
the front wheel, where does this line take you?
If the front and rear track width is the same,
then ideally your front wheels should exactly line
up with your rear wheels.
If the front steering is not exactly straight, then
you can miss the rear wheel by 1 inch for example
at one side, the other side should slice 1 inch off
the rear wheel to make up the difference.
If front and rear track width are not identical then
you need to compensate for this. If rear is 1/2 inch
wider than front, ideally you should see 1/4 inch at
each side if your wheels are straight.
Remember to roll the car a few feet if you turn the
steering to get the wheels straight, so everyting can
settle.
When pushing the car takes more than a few fingers, you
need a hand and in particular if the pushing starts easy
but becomes more and more difficult after a foot or so,
when pushing the other direction it seems to want to
return to the spot 1 foot back, then one foot more it
again becomes difficult to push, then you either have
a dip in your level surface or you have a toe-in/-out
problem. Repeat with the car in a different spot to
check for the "dip".
Also check the sidewall flex: do you see the tire move
inward or outward while pushing? that is a sure sign of
an extreme toe-in or -out problem.
Glancing along the front wheels, try to mark where they
hit or miss the rear wheels. Add the two differences
together, for example if the right side misses by 1 inch
while the left side slices 1/2 inch off the rear wheel
then the total is 1" + (-1/2)" = 1/2"
I use negative when hitting the rear wheel.
Now add the difference in track width between front and
rear, positive if rear is wider than front.
Say that rear is 1 inch wider than front, so add the
previous result:
1/2" + 1" = 1.5"
If you know the distance between front and rear wheels
you can calculate the angle of toe-in.
You want to get it as close as possible to zero, so unless
you want to calculate how large the correction needs to be
there is no calculation involved, more a trial-and-error.
How to correct toe-in?
Most modern cars are setup in the same way: steering
wheel moves a rod from right to left, each end of this
rod is connected via flexible couplings to the wheel.
The place they connect to the wheel is off-axis on a
little arm. This makes the left/right movement result in
turning the wheel right/left.
The rods towards the wheels have thread on them, they
consist of a hollow tube with inside thread and a solid
thread. They are locked in place with a nut to avoid they
turn while driving, changing the lenght of this rod,
which affects the angle of one wheel.
My car had this rod and arm behind the front axle, so
my toe-in was caused by a too long rod to the wheels.
I loosened the nut and turned the rod 1x around to make
it shorter (thread disappearing into the thread).
You can check that it is getting shorter by finding that
you need to loosen the nut a whole turn before you can
shorten the rod a whole turn, then it will run against
the nut again. Block the rod with the nut again and
check the alignment again.
I needed several tries to get the toe-in to zero, which
did improve my mileage.
Make sure you tighten the nut on the steering rod after
you are done adjusting!
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A good idea is to buy a copy of the DVD and donate it to your local library,
especially if they do not have one. I have now donated several DVDs and
books to our local libraries. It is a fairly inexpensive way to educate
many. I actually consider it somewhat subversive.
"Education is the most subversive thing you can do to the human mind and
information is the ultimate weapon"
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:42 PM
Subject: Who killed the Electric Car in Ohio
I just asked the lady at the front desk of our local
library if they had "Who killed the Electric Car".
They said the DVD is on order and there are 26 holds
in front of my request! I had no idea there would be
this kind of demand for that movie in Northeast Ohio.
Maybe Myers Motors inspired some interest! They are
located about 10 miles from this library and the local
newspaper, "The Akron Beacon Journal" has had a couple
of articles about Myers Motors recently.
Maybe David Roden is on that waiting list?
Anyhow, just kind of surprised at the long waiting
list.
Rod, visiting the local library with the kids and
driving the wifes SUV :-(
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Hi Folks
Just to add to what Plasma Boy has said on this subject...
Sure, if you live in a flat area and don't mind taking three or four seconds
to change gears, (depending on transmission type), then I suppose a
clutchless setup is acceptable. (especially if you view your vehicle as an
appliance like a toaster :^D )
After driving a few clutchless EVs, I would personally never have one nor
recommend that approach to someone looking to do a conversion.
It certainly takes the fun factor out of it for me. (unless, of course, we
are talking about a high-performance EV like the White Zombie that doesn't
need a transmission.)
As far as safety goes...
My first experiences with EVs was while living on the ridges of the
Mendocino coast of CA. I found that in the mountains the ability to shift
quickly was a big safety issue.
If, for instance, you were to come upon a particularly steep section of
road, you need to be able to downshift quickly in order to maintain
momentum.
I can think of many times that, if I was driving a clutchless EV, I would
have had to come to a complete stop in the middle of the road in order to
shift gears.
Not only is that a potential accident waiting to happen, but the drivers of
the vehicles behind you would not be happy.
I find that (in general) folks that view thier vehicle as an
appliance/necessary evil are the ones that find a clutchless setup
acceptable.
OTOH, auto enthusiast types tend to chuckle at the idea of shifting a
clutchless EV.
Low performance slug- clutchless OK
Fun high-performance EV- clutchless not OK (unless you have so much power on
tap that it doesn't matter, like Otmar's 914)
Opinions will vary. :^D
On 11/24/06, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello to All,
I hope all who celebrate it, had a wonderful and fulfilling Thanksgiving!
OK, now on to make take on going clutchless....
Jay Caplan wrote:
>I was thinking, why do we use
>clutches anyway with electric motors and PWM controllers?
>
Short answer...to keep the car pleasant and fun to drive! This is
especially true if your EV is a higher performance type that has enough
power to run 0-60 in the 6-7 second range (or even quicker). Having a
beefy clutch mated to a machined-down lightened flywheel and feeding a
4, 5, or 6 speed tranny allows one to power-shift on the 1-2 up-shift
and the 2-3 up-shift in a swift fashion resulting in neck-snapping
acceleration that barks the tires and presses you back into the seat.
Try that in a clutchless affair and you'll either not be able to get the
gear change accomplished, or you will get it done after a full second or
two accompanied by grinding gear teeth. A fun and smooth experience,
this is not!
From Tony Hwang:
Shifting with the clutchless design is slower than with a clutch. These are
the steps involved:
Release the accelerator pedal
Shift into neutral
Push the gearshift lightly toward the gear you want
Wait for the synchromech in the gear box to either speed up or slow
down the motor
until it matches speeds and drops into gear
You may now step on the accelerator pedal again
Yeah, this is pretty accurate. When in my EV formative years way back in
the electric car dark ages of 1980, I tried this method with my 48V
contactor controlled 4 speed Datsun. It 'worked', but it was anything
but elegant. Shifting was exactly as Tony has described.
If one never drives their EV in a spirited manor, and instead of a fun
playmate your vehicle is merely an appliance to get you from point A to
point B, and if you don't care about having to follow a 'procedure' in
order to change gears without forcing things, going clutchless can work
for you. I imagine the type that accepts a whining, under-powered lower
tech Curtis 1231C controller, or a crude contactor rectactor type
jerking controller, an over-weight heavy pack of oozing, corrosion
producing wet cells mandating 3000+ lbs. of weight in a smaller sized
car, and 0-60 in 17-20 seconds as being OK, wouldn't mind the
clutchless shifting thing at all.
For the others out there (what I call the new breed of EVers) who want
their EV to look good, handle good, and perform well, none of the above
is acceptable. These are the type that want a silent and powerful Zilla
or DC Power systems controller, the type that would never accept
fizzling acid spraying wet cell batteries and prefer maintenance-free
powerful 12V AGMs like Hawkers, Optimas and Orbitals, the type that want
their EV to be at least as snappy as it was a gas car, the type that
would spend money on a hot sound system, the type that care about the
condition of the body and interior, and yes, the type that wants to have
a little fun and passion thrown into the design of their EV!
More from Jay Caplan:
>SHIFTS LIKE A DREAM. Upshifts in 1 second, downshifts in 2
>seconds. Much peppier. And NO VIBRATION.
>
>
Your 3000+ lb. Renault LeCar's 96V worth of wet cells will sag to 85V at
the 400 amps your Curtis controller can handle, making just 34 kw, which
translates to about 40 hp. In such a heavy little car, this comes out to
a 0-60 time in the 20 second range and puts you into the first category
of EVer I've outlined above. If you accept this type of machine, of
course losing another 2 seconds in the two up-shifts on your way to 60
mph won't bother you. If you're already waiting a l-o-n-g third of a
minute to get up to highway speeds is OK, what's another 2 seconds?
>So, someone tell me, why not clutchless for everyone?
>
>
Because thankfully, the majority of folks who drive and are currently
converting cars to electric power don't consider this type of
restrictive performance and crude levels of the driving experience
acceptable.
As to your before and after descriptions for 'your' car, I can see why
for you, it seems to be an improvement. Before going clutchless you
evidently had vibration issues. However, these could have been solved by
a well machined adapter set and lightened flywheel that would have
produced turbine-smooth results. Of course, this method is a lot more
costly. You say its 0-10 mph acceleration is improved by not having to
spool up the flywheel...I would agree with your assessment. With a scant
40 hp to work with, 'anything' to reduce the initial work load would be
welcome. On the other hand, if your EV had adequate power for its
current weight, say 150 hp instead of a mere 40 hp, the difference
between spinning up a lightened flywheel or not would be imperceptible.
Having the ability to properly shift with a clutch with this level of
ample power would however, eclipse the fractional increase you notice in
the 0-10 mph range with a sizzling 0-60 in the same time it takes your
current setup to hit 20 mph.
I don't mean to sound discouraging, but when I hear a question like 'why
not clutchless for everyone?', tied in with a sluggish older tech EV
design like a 96V, 40 hp 3000 lb. LeCar, I feel the need to respond.
I'd modify your statement by framing the comment like this... For those
with lower voltage, lower powered, lower performing, heavy range
oriented EVs, why not clutchless for everyone? At least in this context,
you'll be addressing others with similar electric vehicles who might
just take your idea to heart, not the EV community as a whole. When the
type of EV you have forces you to drive in the slow lane, forces you to
pull to the right to let others get around you on hills, and in general
doesn't even hint at performance, the additional performance hit of
taking a bit more time to do an up-shift and taking even more time to do
a down-shift isn't any big deal.
I can tell you that for today's EV conversions that have modern gas car
type performance and use a manual tranny, doing it without the ability
to smoothly shift is totally unacceptable.
See Ya.....John Wayland
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger.
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At 10:56 PM 25/11/06 +0200, Seppo wrote:
Hello!
Here is a quick and simple measurement that gives an idea of the toe- in
value.
Park the car and try to center the steering exactly. Measure with a
measuring tape the distance between the left shoulder of the left
tire and the right shoulder of the right tire.
Take two measurements, one at the front of the tires and second at
the back of the tires. The ideal place is at the axle height but
normally you cannot do this because the body and motor and whatever
is blocking the tape so you have to measure a bit lower where you can
pull the tape freely under the car. But pay attention that you
measure at the same height both front and rear.
Then just compare the two values. If they are the same, the toe-in is
appr. zero. If front is more, you have toe-out. If back is more you
have toe-in. If there is a big difference, you have a problem.
G'day All
When I did this some years ago (after a DIY suspension rebuild) I had a lot
of trouble trying to find the same edge both sides (the person holding the
other end of the tape) so I cut a couple of scrap pieces of plywood to be
just bigger than the tyre diameter, but square. Some holes and a couple of
cable ties each side and then no doubt that we were on the same spot.
Worked well.
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
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I just hope that Detroit is listening!
Curtis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Geopilot
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 12:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: F3e Concept Electric Car Powered by Iron-based Battery
http://www.evworld.com/rssnews.cfm?section=communique&rssid=13531
F3e Concept Electric Car Powered by Iron-based Battery
Source: Shanghai Daily/China
[Nov 20, 2006]
SYNOPSIS: Hong Kong-based BYD Automobile included its F3e concept
electric car in its Beijing Auto Show exhibit. Iron-based battery said
to be recharged to 70 percent state of charge in just 10 minutes.
CHINESE car makers surprised visitors to this year's Beijing auto show
by rolling out the sort of sportscars and concept models that usually
bear a foreign nameplate.
Domestic auto companies exhibiting at Auto China 2006 in Beijing over
the weekend were clearly trying to say to the world that they're ready
to compete with the sexy, high-tech stuff and will not be satisfied
simply turning out boxy family models.
For instance, Chery Automobile Co Ltd, the nation's fifth-biggest car
maker, debuted 10 new models, including three concept vehicles, two
gasoline-electri...[ continued ]
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G'day All
I've just reorganised my on-line photos, and added more information to the
captions. For those who are interested, the gallery resides at:
http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Electric-vehicle-pics
This is currently split into three albums, one for the prestolite motor
refurbish and modification (destined for my trike project). One for the
daihatsu truck, its' motor and other parts that is in progress and has been
for too long, and the third for miscellaneous pics.
Regards
[Technik] James
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I checked out my local Autozone today to check out their battery
selection and found only the Duralast batteries. I looked at
capacities and prices. I found the 65DLG. The specs seem to be 12V
165Ah $79.99 and didnt feel heavier than 40lbs. This seems too good
to be true. Can someone find out more about these batteries?
Brandon Kruger
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The Thanksgiving Shootout.I drove the CE 6 rounds today to a qt.final round
and broke out of my dial by .003.The finish paid my entry and added a 150.to
the war chest.Next and last big race of the year dec.16.Its the King of the
track inventional.You had to win at least 1 nhra summit race during the year to
qualify to race.Winning will pay all entrys to race next year. Dennis Berube
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Are you sure that was Ah and not "reserve minutes"?
It is unusual to find rating in Ah on these batteries.
Danny
Brandon Kruger wrote:
I checked out my local Autozone today to check out their battery
selection and found only the Duralast batteries. I looked at
capacities and prices. I found the 65DLG. The specs seem to be 12V
165Ah $79.99 and didnt feel heavier than 40lbs. This seems too good
to be true. Can someone find out more about these batteries?
Brandon Kruger
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The "photo #1" has a rather interesting 3-wheeler in it, one I don't think
I've ever seen before. It looks a little like a slightly gawky early
version of the Corbin Sparrow. Anybody recognize it?
http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pN1mp8dKYgTE6QRhytyEUoBJ5bD00PlQ4wc1OL1fI63I
YOnMpPLB6ZGvvI2p5FtheGQ_2LSY_MmqzZZECmoHJ5DOqtp6Hy1oes7pSzs68qv12GJkRKU0Low
http://tinyurl.com/wyxgn
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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