EV Digest 6174
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: cool conversion old school styling
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Leaking motor, an'Stuff
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) NiMH Battery Pack Proposal
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: NiMH Battery Pack Proposal
by "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) OT (USA) States fight for cleaner air, cars
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 4 Brusa Chargers was Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) OT (USA) States fight for cleaner air, cars
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Ev controllers - 4th option. Li Ion charging too.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 2 Segways spotted
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 2 Segways spotted
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 2 Segways spotted
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) FW: degree of slope and energy needed
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 2 Segways spotted
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Rectactor Files
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 2 Segways spotted - 38 up for auction
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 2 Segways spotted
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 2 Segways spotted
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: New website created
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 2 Segways spotted
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: DEVC?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 2 Segways spotted
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
if you put the seat on swivel you could drive one direction to impress
the date and another to impress the gas pump!
Storm Connors wrote:
If they ran this car in reverse all the time it would probably have super
aerodynamics!
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:46:22 AM
Subject: cool conversion old school styling
http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/tc4.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Nov 2006 at 23:37, Bob Rice wrote:
> Leading to Lee Hart's famous " Edison Stout, Who
> Didn't Check His Batteries Out" Poem! There MUST be a link for that, plus the
> In
> Season "Christmas Story"?
Sure enough :
http://www.evdl.org/pages/edisonstout.html
http://www.evdl.org/pages/xmascar.html
Enjoy!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The poll results are in, almost 40 people saying they would spend over
$4,000 for a NiMH battery pack,
and 6 saying they would spend over $10,000. While not overwhelming, it
looks like enough interest to proceed.
For the pack specifics this is the current plan:
Built as 100-cell 120v 9aH blocks that would sell for $900 ea for the
first 10 customers.
For a 90Ah pack, you would buy 10 blocks for $9,000.
The blocks would stack on top of each other.
The parallel connections would be solid copper bar interconnects.
Each block would be approximately 24" x 18" x 1.75" and weigh 43 lbs
Blocks will be liquid cooled/heated, the plumbing for each block will
parallel also.
A block can output a 90amps continous, and 180 amps for 10 seconds.
The expected life is 700 cycles with at least 75% capacity.
Every cell will have its temperature monitored.
Cells can be replaced by customer with at least a 10-cell granularity if
found to have poor performance identified by temperature monitoring and
reported to user.
A block can be recharged from its power connection with 160vdc from
regen or otherwise, but would not have
a cutoff from this method and be intermixed with discharge.
To recharge in full with cutoff would need a 160vdc input using
charging input connections.
The motor controller would be responsible to cut-off discharge when
voltage falls below 90v.
My current thinking is to get 10 people willing to buy a pack. The
interesting deal is that the first 10 early adopter risk takers will get
rebates on their pack purchase when the next 10,20,30,40,50 packs are
sold, $500 each 10. So if 50 packs are sold after the first 10, you
would get back $5,000 of your initial purchase price.
If you are seriously interested as a first 10 customer, please send me a
direct email, and let me know
your feedback on the above specs and pricing proposal.
It will likely be at least Feburary before they will be available for
delivery,
I will likely require a 50% deposit.
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jack,
So just to make sure my numbers are correct, that is 120v * 9ah = 1.08 kWh *
70% * 700 cycles = ~530 kWh of storage and discharge for $900 or $1.70 /
kWh?
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: NiMH Battery Pack Proposal
The poll results are in, almost 40 people saying they would spend over
$4,000 for a NiMH battery pack,
and 6 saying they would spend over $10,000. While not overwhelming, it
looks like enough interest to proceed.
For the pack specifics this is the current plan:
Built as 100-cell 120v 9aH blocks that would sell for $900 ea for the
first 10 customers. For a 90Ah pack, you would buy 10 blocks for $9,000.
The blocks would stack on top of each other.
The parallel connections would be solid copper bar interconnects. Each
block would be approximately 24" x 18" x 1.75" and weigh 43 lbs
Blocks will be liquid cooled/heated, the plumbing for each block will
parallel also.
A block can output a 90amps continous, and 180 amps for 10 seconds.
The expected life is 700 cycles with at least 75% capacity.
Every cell will have its temperature monitored.
Cells can be replaced by customer with at least a 10-cell granularity if
found to have poor performance identified by temperature monitoring and
reported to user.
A block can be recharged from its power connection with 160vdc from regen
or otherwise, but would not have
a cutoff from this method and be intermixed with discharge.
To recharge in full with cutoff would need a 160vdc input using charging
input connections.
The motor controller would be responsible to cut-off discharge when
voltage falls below 90v.
My current thinking is to get 10 people willing to buy a pack. The
interesting deal is that the first 10 early adopter risk takers will get
rebates on their pack purchase when the next 10,20,30,40,50 packs are
sold, $500 each 10. So if 50 packs are sold after the first 10, you
would get back $5,000 of your initial purchase price.
If you are seriously interested as a first 10 customer, please send me a
direct email, and let me know
your feedback on the above specs and pricing proposal. It will likely be
at least Feburary before they will be available for delivery,
I will likely require a 50% deposit.
Jack
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/552 - Release Date:
26/11/2006 11:30 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those interested in following the historic fight to get car makers
to clean up the air .
Danny
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/293743_epa27.html
Monday, November 27, 2006
States fight for cleaner air, cars
By DAVID SHEPARDSON
THE DETROIT NEWS
WASHINGTON -- In a case that could send shock waves through the U.S.
auto industry, 12 states and the District of Columbia want the U.S.
Supreme Court to order the federal government to regulate greenhouse gas
emissions from automobile tailpipes.
The case -- Massachusetts v. the Environmental Protection Agency -- is
the first to reach the nation's highest court in a series of legal
efforts by environmentalists and states, led by California, to force the
regulation and reduction of carbon dioxide emissions, which have been
linked to global warming.
The Supreme Court will hear arguments Wednesday.
"In the face of a federal government that has been unwilling to take
dramatic steps to regulate greenhouse gases, the states have taken a
multifront approach," said Ann Carlson, co-director of the environmental
law clinic at the University of California, Los Angeles.
At issue is whether the federal Clean Air Act, a set of laws enacted in
the 1970s to clean up air pollution, governs greenhouse gas emissions.
A victory in the Supreme Court -- even a decision giving the EPA the
right to regulate emissions but not mandating it -- would be an
important victory for the states, Carlson said.
But even a mandate, which is unlikely from a conservative Supreme Court,
probably would not mean an immediate reduction in carbon dioxide
emissions from automobiles.
Several auto trade groups have come out against the states, including
the Alliance of Automotive Manufacturers, which represents General
Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., DaimlerChrysler AG, Toyota Motor Corp. and
five other automakers. The groups are represented by nearly a dozen
lawyers, including two former solicitor generals, Ken Starr and Ted Olson.
"The politically sensitive and scientifically uncertain decision whether
to mandate federal regulation of vehicular greenhouse gas emissions
properly rests with Congress," Olson wrote in court papers.
Automakers declined to comment on the case, deferring to the alliance.
In court papers, they say a mandated decrease in carbon dioxide
emissions would cost them billions of dollars, require expensive changes
to equip more vehicles with cleaner hybrid technologies and force them
to sell smaller, less profitable, vehicles. The auto industry estimates
the per-vehicle cost for compliance would be at least $3,000.
Even then, they may not be able to comply with harsh reductions, nor are
they convinced cutting tailpipe emissions will make a significant
difference.
"Reducing greenhouse gas emissions from new motor vehicles in this
country will not likely have any direct measurable effect on the global
climate," Olson wrote.
Michigan has filed a brief supporting the automakers, but others have
lined up against them, including former U.S. Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright.
Wednesday's hearing will be the latest skirmish in a years-long battle.
In 1999, several academic groups asked the EPA to regulate carbon
dioxide and other greenhouse gases from motor vehicles because they
contribute to global climate change.
After the Bush administration took office in 2001, the EPA rejected the
petition, saying it lacked the authority to regulate the gas under the
Clean Air Act. A year later, Massachusetts and the other states filed suit.
California, meanwhile, is eager to regulate vehicle emissions. In 2004,
the state mandated a 25 percent reduction in carbon dioxide emissions by
2016, saying it would hike the cost of vehicles by $1,000 per car. An
auto industry suit seeking to block the regulation from taking effect is
set to go to trial in January.
California's proposal has been adopted by 10 other states, though none
have implemented it pending the resolution of court challenges.
A Supreme Court ruling on emissions could give California ammunition in
its fight and subsequently lead to broad change. California's rules
carry enormous weight because the state accounts for 10 percent of U.S.
vehicle sales.
NYT-11-26-06 1927EST
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unfortunately more than just EEPROM has to be changed - some traces
on the control PCB are routed differently. In short, BRUSA NLG412
version meant to work with SAFT NiCds is not good for anything else
and cannot be modified reasonably easily (made such on purpose,
mandated by SAFT against BRUSA's opinion, but that's different
story...).
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Philippe
You might be correct.
If anyone wants some chargers for NiCad batteries I have four Brusa NLG 412
Chargers. I don't know if they work or not I am not sure how to test them. I
paid just under 1100 for all 4 of them. I would like to break even and see
them put to use. Long story but I bought these when I had a Solectria which had
the same Brusa charger. They are set up for 120 volts of SAFT NiCad
batteries and would need an EPROM change to do anything else.
Anyone know if these would work on NiMH batteries?
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those interested in following the fight to get the car makers to
clean up.
Danny
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/293743_epa27.html
Monday, November 27, 2006
States fight for cleaner air, cars
By DAVID SHEPARDSON
THE DETROIT NEWS
WASHINGTON -- In a case that could send shock waves through the U.S.
auto industry, 12 states and the District of Columbia want the U.S.
Supreme Court to order the federal government to regulate greenhouse gas
emissions from automobile tailpipes.
The case -- Massachusetts v. the Environmental Protection Agency -- is
the first to reach the nation's highest court in a series of legal
efforts by environmentalists and states, led by California, to force the
regulation and reduction of carbon dioxide emissions, which have been
linked to global warming.
The Supreme Court will hear arguments Wednesday.
"In the face of a federal government that has been unwilling to take
dramatic steps to regulate greenhouse gases, the states have taken a
multifront approach," said Ann Carlson, co-director of the environmental
law clinic at the University of California, Los Angeles.
At issue is whether the federal Clean Air Act, a set of laws enacted in
the 1970s to clean up air pollution, governs greenhouse gas emissions.
A victory in the Supreme Court -- even a decision giving the EPA the
right to regulate emissions but not mandating it -- would be an
important victory for the states, Carlson said.
But even a mandate, which is unlikely from a conservative Supreme Court,
probably would not mean an immediate reduction in carbon dioxide
emissions from automobiles.
Several auto trade groups have come out against the states, including
the Alliance of Automotive Manufacturers, which represents General
Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., DaimlerChrysler AG, Toyota Motor Corp. and
five other automakers. The groups are represented by nearly a dozen
lawyers, including two former solicitor generals, Ken Starr and Ted Olson.
"The politically sensitive and scientifically uncertain decision whether
to mandate federal regulation of vehicular greenhouse gas emissions
properly rests with Congress," Olson wrote in court papers.
Automakers declined to comment on the case, deferring to the alliance.
In court papers, they say a mandated decrease in carbon dioxide
emissions would cost them billions of dollars, require expensive changes
to equip more vehicles with cleaner hybrid technologies and force them
to sell smaller, less profitable, vehicles. The auto industry estimates
the per-vehicle cost for compliance would be at least $3,000.
Even then, they may not be able to comply with harsh reductions, nor are
they convinced cutting tailpipe emissions will make a significant
difference.
"Reducing greenhouse gas emissions from new motor vehicles in this
country will not likely have any direct measurable effect on the global
climate," Olson wrote.
Michigan has filed a brief supporting the automakers, but others have
lined up against them, including former U.S. Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright.
Wednesday's hearing will be the latest skirmish in a years-long battle.
In 1999, several academic groups asked the EPA to regulate carbon
dioxide and other greenhouse gases from motor vehicles because they
contribute to global climate change.
After the Bush administration took office in 2001, the EPA rejected the
petition, saying it lacked the authority to regulate the gas under the
Clean Air Act. A year later, Massachusetts and the other states filed suit.
California, meanwhile, is eager to regulate vehicle emissions. In 2004,
the state mandated a 25 percent reduction in carbon dioxide emissions by
2016, saying it would hike the cost of vehicles by $1,000 per car. An
auto industry suit seeking to block the regulation from taking effect is
set to go to trial in January.
California's proposal has been adopted by 10 other states, though none
have implemented it pending the resolution of court challenges.
A Supreme Court ruling on emissions could give California ammunition in
its fight and subsequently lead to broad change. California's rules
carry enormous weight because the state accounts for 10 percent of U.S.
vehicle sales.
NYT-11-26-06 1927EST
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://direct.www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=2519¶m=en028609
This may be a better url. Interesting li ion charger stuff. That might be
interesting also. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danno none" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 4:04 PM
Subject: Ev controllers - 4th option.
> Some time back Ray Wong wrote a nice review of Microchip's PICdem Motor
Control Board. I forwarded Ray's message to the appropriate manager with
the suggestion that it be made available to EV lister's at a discount. He
agreed and added it to Microchip's Holiday Tools sale. So from now until
the end of the year it's 20% off list price. See
www.microchip.com/express<http://www.microchip.com/express> for more details
on how to get the discount and other tools included in the sale.
>
> Full disclosure - I work for Microchip but I don't speak for them. I just
know who to talk to about things as this!
>
> Danno (Also interested in an Open Controller based on MCHP parts, of
course)
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------
> Ray said:
>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 23:23:06 -0800 (PST)
> From: Ray Wong
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]<http://by115fd.bay115.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?cu
rmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&a=7168cedfd05f32f48f7c8980d50f82d
981aa7ee95115899bf8bc323a48660299&mailto=1&[EMAIL PROTECTED]&msg=805DE0F
C-1D7A-47BC-8176-8941BD91C2A8&start=0&len=55507&src=&type=x>>
> Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> To:
[email protected]<http://by115fd.bay115.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?c
urmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&a=7168cedfd05f32f48f7c8980d50f82
d981aa7ee95115899bf8bc323a48660299&mailto=1&[EMAIL PROTECTED]&msg=805D
E0FC-1D7A-47BC-8176-8941BD91C2A8&start=0&len=55507&src=&type=x>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Content-Disposition: inline
>
> I have been lurking while following this discussion on building a
controller
> using Microchips . At the same time I am working on the bench with one of
these
> Microchip PICDEM Motor Control Development Boards (PIC18F4431), so I have
a
> little prespective on this topic.
>
> It took all of 5 minutes to get this board up and running. It will take
DC
> from 100V to 350V and AC up to 270V and even has a voltage doubler.
>
> The board is well isolated with optos and linear optos It is set up for
three
> isolated phase current monitors. It has inputs for hall sensor for BLDC.
It
> has the circuitry for sensorless BLDC including opto isolation.
>
> The board has a speed pot, start button. reverse button, reset button,
and 5
> LEDs
>
> The board is set up for an optional LIN bus. The LIN bus is well suited
for
> automotive applications and can be a sub-network for a CANbus interface.
>
> The inverter power module IR IRAMS10UP60A can only handle a small motor
but is
> good for testing. The module is used in some home appliances with up to
1/2 hp
> motors.
>
> The board has an RS232 port to connect to your computer. It has a
Graphic
> User Interface (GUI) that will allow you to set most motor parameters and
> monitor everthing from rpm, voltage, phase current, temp.
>
> The board has an ICD connector RJ-11 to allow connection to MPLAB ICD2
> programming and in circuit debugging.
>
> The board comes with two Microchips, a PIC18F4431 with BLDC firmware and
a
> second PIC set up for three phase ACIM. The board has I/O pinouts right
at the
> microchip to allow easy connection via ribbon cable to a breadboard or
daughter
> board.
>
> Clearly, this is not a production board. It does however, give me a
much
> quicker learn time. I can test things on the board at low power and then
add
> higher power components and finally take the design to a custom made
board. The
> board has an open design and the basic software is already working for
BLDC,
> single phase ACIM, 3 phase ACIM.
>
> I bought this board primarily to learn about BLDC and ACIM controllers.
It
> could be used to prototype a series DC or a SEPEX controller. Time
permitting,
> I personally would like to build a high power sepex controller. My two
> Prestolite 4001 sepex motors are still sitting.
>
> Microchip has several application notes to help learn about motor
control
> design using this microchip.
>
> There are probably others on the list that want to learn about motor
> controllers. This board is probably not a bad starting point.
>
> Imagine what could be developed if many people on the list were working
on
> motor controller designs, especially if we adopted some standards.
>
> EZESPORT
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well since the Segway is slower than most junk scooters & for sure every
bicycle except a 12 inch 4yearolds clown bike that would be a good place for
them or of course riding up and down stairs. Sorry I think the Segway is an
overengineered, expensive device that is more suited to the handicapped
rather than able bodied people. For 3k I could build a freeway capable
motorcycle. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 6:20 PM
Subject: 2 Segways spotted
> I went on a 20 mile bike ride today on a scenic route
> that is a bike path that parallels the Ohio canal boat
> route that was the main transport route for goods
> during the 1800's. I passed 2 physically able guys
> riding Segways down the path. It was cool seeing the
> EV's, but I wondered why they were riding on this
> pedestrian/bike path. EV's are nice transport, but I
> wonder why they were riding on a bike path? Perhaps 2
> guys with a really cool toy.
> Rod
> W8RNH
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the Segways are legislate off the sidewalks and you cannot run on the
streets, where can you run them? If a store is license by the state to sell
them, then they are legal to run some where.
Now if you put on two small dolly wheels on the rear, so that don't touch
the ground which is use for safety if you lose power and get that one model
that a person can set back, then you have something like a wheelchair.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: 2 Segways spotted
> Rod, they were probably on the trail because a lot of money was spent
> lobbying state governments nationwide to make a law specifically just for
> one brand of vehicle. Kind of like making a law that you can only drive
> Fords on the highway. I know this sounds utterly ridiculous but it is
> absolutely true. Here is the law from here in Washington State, RCW
> 46.04.1695
>
> An "electric personal assistive mobility device" (EPAMD) means a
> self-balancing device with two wheels not in tandem, designed to transport
> only one person by an electric propulsion system with an average power of
> seven hundred fifty watts (one horsepower) having a maximum speed on a
> paved
> level surface, when powered solely by such propulsion while ridden by an
> operator weighing one hundred seventy pounds, or less than twenty miles
> per
> hour.
>
> These are allowed on sidewalks and bike paths in many states although they
> have been starting to legislate them off sidewalks. I have a great new
> idea.
> How about a self balancing device balanced by yourself with two wheels,
> one
> in front of the other. It would take up much less width on a trail :-)
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
> PS: I really like the term in the law about average power. How much more
> vague could they be?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 6:20 PM
> Subject: 2 Segways spotted
>
>
> >I went on a 20 mile bike ride today on a scenic route
> > that is a bike path that parallels the Ohio canal boat
> > route that was the main transport route for goods
> > during the 1800's. I passed 2 physically able guys
> > riding Segways down the path. It was cool seeing the
> > EV's, but I wondered why they were riding on this
> > pedestrian/bike path. EV's are nice transport, but I
> > wonder why they were riding on a bike path? Perhaps 2
> > guys with a really cool toy.
> > Rod
> > W8RNH
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/552 - Release Date:
> > 11/26/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/552 - Release Date:
> 11/26/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: 2 Segways spotted
> If the Segways are legislate off the sidewalks and you cannot run on the
> streets, where can you run them? If a store is license by the state to
sell
> them, then they are legal to run some where.
>
> Now if you put on two small dolly wheels on the rear, so that don't touch
> the ground which is use for safety if you lose power and get that one
model
> that a person can set back, then you have something like a wheelchair.
>
> Roland
> Hi EVerybody;
Well, Segways are a anolomy, as far as vehicles go? I would guess a Cop
would sorta ignore you, hope you go away?Unless you were being a pain in the
ass with it?As for being practical? Hell no. As somebody pointed out they
are TOO expensive, and if it runs out of juice, what? Lies down?Whatthehell?
Who wants to stand up, anyhow? When you get on a bus or train, ya want to
sit down? Right? The FAA Mandates , no standees on planes, or the airlines
would stuff 'em in like the cross- town bus. EVen Amtrak has tried to limit
ticket sales to the capacity of the train.But given your druthers, ya wanna
sit down!So put the wheels in line, like bikes have had for thousands of
years, a comfortable seat, and be on yur way.
My two wheels worth
Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:34 PM
> Subject: Re: 2 Segways spotted
>
>
> > Rod, they were probably on the trail because a lot of money was spent
> > lobbying state governments nationwide to make a law specifically just
for
> > one brand of vehicle. Kind of like making a law that you can only drive
> > Fords on the highway. I know this sounds utterly ridiculous but it is
> > absolutely true. Here is the law from here in Washington State, RCW
> > 46.04.1695
> >
> > An "electric personal assistive mobility device" (EPAMD) means a
> > self-balancing device with two wheels not in tandem, designed to
transport
> > only one person by an electric propulsion system with an average power
of
> > seven hundred fifty watts (one horsepower) having a maximum speed on a
> > paved
> > level surface, when powered solely by such propulsion while ridden by an
> > operator weighing one hundred seventy pounds, or less than twenty miles
> > per
> > hour.
> >
> > These are allowed on sidewalks and bike paths in many states although
they
> > have been starting to legislate them off sidewalks. I have a great new
> > idea.
> > How about a self balancing device balanced by yourself with two wheels,
> > one
> > in front of the other. It would take up much less width on a trail :-)
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> >
> > PS: I really like the term in the law about average power. How much more
> > vague could they be?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 6:20 PM
> > Subject: 2 Segways spotted
> >
> >
> > >I went on a 20 mile bike ride today on a scenic route
> > > that is a bike path that parallels the Ohio canal boat
> > > route that was the main transport route for goods
> > > during the 1800's. I passed 2 physically able guys
> > > riding Segways down the path. It was cool seeing the
> > > EV's, but I wondered why they were riding on this
> > > pedestrian/bike path. EV's are nice transport, but I
> > > wonder why they were riding on a bike path? Perhaps 2
> > > guys with a really cool toy.
> > > Rod
> > > W8RNH
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/552 - Release Date:
> > > 11/26/2006
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/552 - Release Date:
> > 11/26/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/552 - Release Date: 11/26/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: howard maroz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: degree of slope
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:45:33 -0800 (PST)
Hi Phil,
I checked the elevation gain of the grade with my GPS and it is 840ft in
2.2mi. I am expecting the total weight of the car to be around 3500
pounds. Is that enough information for you?
Howard
Hi, Howard
That's enough info for a rough calculation ( how many batteries it will use
up to get up that hill)
First - let's calculate the energy available from a SINGLE golf cart battery
( US2200 is typical so I'll use those numbers):
Amp-hours: 125 amps * 61 minutes ( from USbattery site) = 127 amp-=hours
Reduce ( I'll guess at 80%) for additional Peukert effect since we'll
probably be drawing more than 125 amps:
127 amp-hours * 0.80 = 102 amp hours
Reduce to 80% depth of discharge : 102 * 0.8 = 81 amp-hours
Multiply by 5.5 volts ( a guess, to account for voltage drop) to get the
energy in watt-hours: 81 amp-hours * 5.5V = 445 watt-hours
NOW - find the energy (in ft-lbs) to lift your car up the height of the
hill:
Energy = force * distance = 3500lb * 840 feet = 2,940,000 ft-lbs
Convert this to watt-hours : 2,940,000 ft-lb / 2655 ft-lb/w-hr = 1107
watt-hours ( at the drive wheels)
Now, let's figure how much energy you need out of the battery pack ( assume
controller eff= 0.95, motor eff. = 0.9, drivetrain eff = 0.9)
1107 watts / ( 0.95 * 0.9 * 0.9) = 1440 watt-hours ( at the pack)
FINALLY - the number of batteries needed to supply the energy to lift your
car 840 feet is : 1440 w-hr / 445 w-hr/battery = 3.2 batteries
Remember - this is a pretty rough calculation, but what it says is that you
would need about 3 1/4 fully charged batteries to supply the EXTRA energy to
get your car up that hill. This is in addition to the energy you normally
would need to travel 2.2 miles on the flat.
Let's look at it a different way:
I'll guess that your car needs 350 w-hr/mile from the pack to travel on the
flat. That would be 2.2 mi * 350 w-hr/mi = 770 w-hr . to travel that hill
if it were flat. So, for that last 2.2miles, you would need: 1440 w-hrs (
elavation) + 770 w-hr (flat) = 2210 w-hr.
This means that the 2.2 mile hill uses the same energy ( about) as driving
6.3 miles on the flat. Or, you use up about 4 miles of EXTRA range just due
to the elavation change when going up the hill.
So, this calculation makes it seem like this is doable, but will certainly
affect your daily range. And, to keep the battery current draw reasonable,
you'll probably have to drive pretty slowly up that hill.
On the plus side, you won't use much energy to travel down this hill when
you start out in the morning.
Any comments from anyone on the method, or the efficiencies, etc, that I
guessed at?
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually the federal law is so loose concerning handicapped vehicles you can
just about claim anything is a handicapped vehicle and ride most anywhere if
it is powered by electricity. Local authorities do not want to challenge The
federal Citizens with Disabilities Act. If I get pulled over on my electric
board scooter I just tell them that I am old. They have no laws on just what
constitutes an old person :-)
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: 2 Segways spotted
If the Segways are legislate off the sidewalks and you cannot run on the
streets, where can you run them? If a store is license by the state to
sell them, then they are legal to run some where.
Now if you put on two small dolly wheels on the rear, so that don't touch
the ground which is use for safety if you lose power and get that one
model that a person can set back, then you have something like a
wheelchair.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: 2 Segways spotted
Rod, they were probably on the trail because a lot of money was spent
lobbying state governments nationwide to make a law specifically just for
one brand of vehicle. Kind of like making a law that you can only drive
Fords on the highway. I know this sounds utterly ridiculous but it is
absolutely true. Here is the law from here in Washington State, RCW
46.04.1695
An "electric personal assistive mobility device" (EPAMD) means a
self-balancing device with two wheels not in tandem, designed to
transport
only one person by an electric propulsion system with an average power of
seven hundred fifty watts (one horsepower) having a maximum speed on a
paved
level surface, when powered solely by such propulsion while ridden by an
operator weighing one hundred seventy pounds, or less than twenty miles
per
hour.
These are allowed on sidewalks and bike paths in many states although
they
have been starting to legislate them off sidewalks. I have a great new
idea.
How about a self balancing device balanced by yourself with two wheels,
one
in front of the other. It would take up much less width on a trail :-)
Roderick Wilde
PS: I really like the term in the law about average power. How much more
vague could they be?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 6:20 PM
Subject: 2 Segways spotted
>I went on a 20 mile bike ride today on a scenic route
> that is a bike path that parallels the Ohio canal boat
> route that was the main transport route for goods
> during the 1800's. I passed 2 physically able guys
> riding Segways down the path. It was cool seeing the
> EV's, but I wondered why they were riding on this
> pedestrian/bike path. EV's are nice transport, but I
> wonder why they were riding on a bike path? Perhaps 2
> guys with a really cool toy.
> Rod
> W8RNH
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/552 - Release Date:
> 11/26/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/552 - Release Date:
11/26/2006
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/552 - Release Date:
11/26/2006
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Question about arcing. With a diode across the motor as shown in the
rectactor article, will there be any arcing of the contactor contacts
when the contactors are opened?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just come across this auction today, thought
somebody may be interested,
http://dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=10806&referraltag=USPS8indveh
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Sorry I think the Segway is
> an
> overengineered, expensive device that is more suited to the handicapped
> rather than able bodied people.
I don't think it's even all that good for a handicapped person. Most
folks find that standing in place for a prolonged period of time is more
difficult than walking for the same amount of time. And it's not like you
can shift your weight to make it more comfortable.
Just about anyone that is capable of riding a segway, is also capable of
walking.
It's just a high priced yuppy toy.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If the Segways are legislate off the sidewalks and you cannot run on the
> streets, where can you run them? If a store is license by the state to
> sell
> them, then they are legal to run some where.
Sure, in your garage, buildings and land that you own, etc.
Quads aren't legal on many streets and certainly not on sidewalks, yet
they sell the heck out of them.
For what it's worth, I'm not aware of any legal requirement that says a
store can't sell you something if you can't use it. It only has to be
legal to own, not use.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
The "photo #1" has a rather interesting 3-wheeler in it, one I don't think
I've ever seen before. It looks a little like a slightly gawky early
version of the Corbin Sparrow. Anybody recognize it?
It's a "Freeway", an EV built in Edina MN in the early 1980's. Most were
ICEs, but some were electric.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Offgrid Engineering wrote:
Thanks to Lee, Doug, Peter, Jerry and all the others who added to the
discussion... The race is next June, I'll post the results then!
Glad we could help. I hope your team is inspired to try things,
experiment, and see what works. Best wishes!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Rod, they were probably on the trail because a lot of money was spent
lobbying state governments nationwide to make a law specifically just
for one brand of vehicle. Kind of like making a law that you can only
drive Fords on the highway. I know this sounds utterly ridiculous but
it is absolutely true. Here is the law from here in Washington State,
RCW 46.04.1695
An "electric personal assistive mobility device" (EPAMD) means a
self-balancing device with two wheels not in tandem, designed to
transport only one person by an electric propulsion system with an
average power of seven hundred fifty watts (one horsepower) having a
maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such
propulsion while ridden by an operator weighing one hundred seventy
pounds, or less than twenty miles per hour.
Notice that it never says "Segway". :-)
My BEST kids came up with at least six schemes to build such a vehicle
(two wheels, self balancing, non tandem). They actually built a
full-size working model, and it worked! It has no computers or
gyroscopes; no high-tech parts at all. These 5th graders designed,
built, and raced it for less than $100.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Nov 2006 at 11:02, Obrien, Haskell W. wrote:
> Devc.org looks parked - too bad, their newsletter was
> pretty interesting.
I'm a member (even though I've never lived in Colorado), and I still receive a
pdf newsletter by email now and then. I think something happened to their
website (maybe it was cracked?) a while back, and the webmaster has never
had time to get it back online. Others more in the know may have more
complete answers for you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, do you have any pictures of the BEST kids vehicle? How did they achieve
self balancing? Even though the law did not state Segway it was still the
only product on the market like that and I am sure they have all the patents
tied up. These people certainly have the money to challenge any violations
of their patents but I am quite sure they won't sue your kids unless they
try to go into production :-)
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: 2 Segways spotted
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Rod, they were probably on the trail because a lot of money was spent
lobbying state governments nationwide to make a law specifically just for
one brand of vehicle. Kind of like making a law that you can only drive
Fords on the highway. I know this sounds utterly ridiculous but it is
absolutely true. Here is the law from here in Washington State, RCW
46.04.1695
An "electric personal assistive mobility device" (EPAMD) means a
self-balancing device with two wheels not in tandem, designed to
transport only one person by an electric propulsion system with an
average power of seven hundred fifty watts (one horsepower) having a
maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such
propulsion while ridden by an operator weighing one hundred seventy
pounds, or less than twenty miles per hour.
Notice that it never says "Segway". :-)
My BEST kids came up with at least six schemes to build such a vehicle
(two wheels, self balancing, non tandem). They actually built a full-size
working model, and it worked! It has no computers or gyroscopes; no
high-tech parts at all. These 5th graders designed, built, and raced it
for less than $100.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date:
11/27/2006
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006
--- End Message ---
