EV Digest 6182
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Source for bolts Help please!
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Direct Drive
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Some newbie questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Direct Drive
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Geo Metros
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Geo Metros
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Geo Metros
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Source for bolts Help please!
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: [EV] Re: Some newbie questions
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: [EV] Re: Some newbie questions
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Direct Drive
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Source for bolts Help please!
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Geo Metros
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Tesla Motors battery , comments
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Clutchless gearbox
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Direct Drive
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Clutchless gearbox
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: [EV] Re: Some newbie questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Tesla Motors battery , comments
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Some newbie questions
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I need a recommendation on a supply source. Some of you guys I am sure can
tell me.
I ran into a problem yesterday when I found out that some 1/4 20 allen bolts
I purchased appear to be case hardened and not machined Grade 8's the way
they were presented to me. I believe the problem to be is the bolts I
purchased from a local vendor are made in Taiwan and are soft on the inside.
I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my motor at
about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds, and I have
double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding bolt types
and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing. The bolts
shipped with the taperlocks all appear to Grade 5 and apparently work ok
(but are for front mount), so I am betting it is just a cheap bolt. This was
apparent when I had a lot of difficulty fishing the broken piece out. The
visegrips were able to chew it up, so they are soft on the inside and snap
with a sickening "clink".
Does anyone know of a vendor where I can get good quality Allen or other US
made bolts? I need some of the 1/4 20 cap screws 3" long.
No more chinese bolts for me!!!!!
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A wise man told me, "If you can't make it right, make it adjustable." My car
really drives better using the transmission. I can start off in fourth, but it
is way more comfortable starting in second. First is really too low on this
vehicle, but off road it might be just the ticket. I rarely get into fifth
either, but it is available. The installation is simpler just replacing the
engine with a motor as well.
----- Original Message ----
From: JORDAN CRANE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2006 7:06:30 PM
Subject: Direct Drive
I've got a 63 chevy nova, and I'm working out the details
for the conversion. I've been reading about direct drive, and
everything I've read thus far points to this being the best and
most efficient way to go.
My question is this: Why, if direct drive is so good, aren't more
people doing it? Most conversions that I've read about, people
keep their transmission on in one way or another.
Thank you,
Jordan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Second question is accesorys. Both cars are Citroens. They need
> a hidraulic pump running for suspension, brakes and steering. An electric
> 12volt motor spinning at something like an ICE idle is doable?
Not really. That's going to require a fair amount of power, perhaps as
much as 1hp. to produce 1hp at 12V requires something like 90-100 amps.
You are much better off using a small motor that runs at pack voltage,
perhaps something like a surplus treadmill motor. These are pretty cheap
and much more efficient that most of the 1hp 12V motors, plus you won't
need a huge DC/DC converter.
> How much
> power would something like that eat? I can live without power steering
> in the smaller car, but not on the larger one.
>
> Third is airconditioning. Where I live it gets hot in the summer
> and A/C is a much welcomed addition. Whats the usual route for that?
A/C usually requires about 2hp. Normal routes are either a small pack
voltage DC motor like I mentioned above, or running it off a tail shaft on
the main traction motor. The advantage of the tail shaft is it's cheaper,
and possibly more efficient, disavantage is it only runs when the main
motor is spinning, so at long stops you'd need to idle the main motor
(really poor efficiency), or get hot.
The separate motor is probably the way to go.
>
> Many thanks...
>
>
> --
> Eduardo K. |
> http://www.carfun.cl | "World domination, now"
> http://e.nn.cl | Linus Torvalds
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've always had good results with www.mcmaster.com. They get there quick, and
they have all the varieties you need. You can specify the SAE grade.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2006 7:48:48 PM
Subject: Source for bolts Help please!
I need a recommendation on a supply source. Some of you guys I am sure can
tell me.
I ran into a problem yesterday when I found out that some 1/4 20 allen bolts
I purchased appear to be case hardened and not machined Grade 8's the way
they were presented to me. I believe the problem to be is the bolts I
purchased from a local vendor are made in Taiwan and are soft on the inside.
I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my motor at
about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds, and I have
double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding bolt types
and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing. The bolts
shipped with the taperlocks all appear to Grade 5 and apparently work ok
(but are for front mount), so I am betting it is just a cheap bolt. This was
apparent when I had a lot of difficulty fishing the broken piece out. The
visegrips were able to chew it up, so they are soft on the inside and snap
with a sickening "clink".
Does anyone know of a vendor where I can get good quality Allen or other US
made bolts? I need some of the 1/4 20 cap screws 3" long.
No more chinese bolts for me!!!!!
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs.
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
JORDAN CRANE wrote:
My question is this: Why, if direct drive is so good, aren't more
people doing it? Most conversions that I've read about, people
keep their transmission on in one way or another.
Most all of the professional conversions use AC systems and single speed
transmissions. On my Prizm and S10 for example they are locked into
second gear and bolted to the motor.
This is really nice actually. You don't have to deal with clutches,
gears or anything. Just push pedal and go from zero to 100mph (on the
Prizm). However you need an AC system with a fairly beefy motor to pull
this off.
You can also sit on a hill and use the motor to hold the car for a few
seconds. Do this in a DC motor and you will blow up the commutator. AC
is not really a problem. Or slow the car down going backwards down a
hill by putting it in D and giving it some gas. Really nice.
There are a lot of advantages to AC; I'd recommend it over DC personally.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are right, it slows just as if you depressed the clutch and held it down
all the time you are slowing down to the stop.
JLC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: Geo Metros
> Jay Caplan wrote:
>
> > Slows down faster at traffic lights, saves braking.
>
> It can't possibly slow faster than if you had a clutch and disengaged it
> ;^>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you press the clutch and/or use the brake, you turn kinetic energy into
heat, reduce mileage. There is less momentum without clutch/flywheel
spinning. So without this weight spinning, you end up braking less and
making less heat at the brakes. There are times when you can't plan
coasting to the stop/slow point, at those times when you have to brake, you
will make less heat without a clutch/flywheel
JLC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:33 PM
Subject: RE: Geo Metros
> Mark McCurdy wrote:
>
> > 0-o
> > regen damps the motor's spin, slowing the vehicle down a lot
> > faster than just putting it in neutral (pushing clutch)
>
> Can't argue with that, but Jay's EV (like most of our DC vehicles)
> doesn't have regen ;^>
>
> I think he is suggesting that without the additional energy stored in
> the rotating mass of the flywheel/clutch assembly, the vehicle
> decelerates more quickly. My observation is merely that there is even
> less kinetic energy to dissipate if one disengages the clutch so that
> only the energy stored in the rotating mass of the clutch disk need be
> dissipated.
>
> FWIW, my driving style is to anticipate traffic lights and stop signs,
> etc. and to coast toward them such that as often as possible I don't
> have to come to a complete stop, so I consider the additional energy
> storage of the clutch and flywheel to be desirable in my EV.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
I had 2 clutchless EV's. Both ran on DC. My experience was not as good, and I
don't recommend it.
Well, our systems are very different and AC is more suitable
for clutchless design.
Safety issues - no mechanical disconnect
Unlike DC controllers, AC inverters don't fail full on.
So this is not an issue for it.
Performance - it does take longer and is more difficult to shift
Sure, but with 10k RPM motor I don't need to shift, so not
an issue as well.
I agree with you it's harder to achieve acceptable performance with
clutchless design (without oversizing components).
Victor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark, was this Fastenal where you got the fake bolts? I am quite surprised.
It also sounds like a very high torque amount for a 1/4" bolt.
However, you should be able to get aircraft AN bolts from aircraft spruce
www.aircraftspruce.com they are often what race car builders use.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Ward
Sent: December 1, 2006 4:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Source for bolts Help please!
I need a recommendation on a supply source. Some of you guys I am sure can
tell me.
I ran into a problem yesterday when I found out that some 1/4 20 allen bolts
I purchased appear to be case hardened and not machined Grade 8's the way
they were presented to me. I believe the problem to be is the bolts I
purchased from a local vendor are made in Taiwan and are soft on the inside.
I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my motor at
about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds, and I have
double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding bolt types
and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing. The bolts
shipped with the taperlocks all appear to Grade 5 and apparently work ok
(but are for front mount), so I am betting it is just a cheap bolt. This was
apparent when I had a lot of difficulty fishing the broken piece out. The
visegrips were able to chew it up, so they are soft on the inside and snap
with a sickening "clink".
Does anyone know of a vendor where I can get good quality Allen or other US
made bolts? I need some of the 1/4 20 cap screws 3" long.
No more chinese bolts for me!!!!!
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 1, 2006, at 5:48 PM, Mark Ward wrote:
Does anyone know of a vendor where I can get good quality Allen or
other US made bolts?
Fastenal. Check your yellow pages, perhaps there's one in your town.
They're a fun place to browse, and they can order nearly anything you
desire if they don't happen to have it in stock.
<http://www.fastenal.com>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my motor at
> about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds, and I have
> double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding bolt types
> and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing.
I'd double check the torque you're looking for. 108 ft lbs sounds awfully high
for 1/4 20. I'd bet
dollars to doughnuts it should be 108 inch lbs. I have 10-32 bolts on my
NiCads that are supposed
to be tightened to 50 inch lbs. 1/4 20 isn't much larger than that.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 06:19:42PM -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > Second question is accesorys. Both cars are Citroens. They need
> > a hidraulic pump running for suspension, brakes and steering. An electric
> > 12volt motor spinning at something like an ICE idle is doable?
> Not really. That's going to require a fair amount of power, perhaps as
> much as 1hp. to produce 1hp at 12V requires something like 90-100 amps.
> You are much better off using a small motor that runs at pack voltage,
> perhaps something like a surplus treadmill motor. These are pretty cheap
> and much more efficient that most of the 1hp 12V motors, plus you won't
> need a huge DC/DC converter.
1HP? I was thinking I could make it with something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140059399444
> >
> > Third is airconditioning. Where I live it gets hot in the summer
> > and A/C is a much welcomed addition. Whats the usual route for that?
>
> A/C usually requires about 2hp. Normal routes are either a small pack
> voltage DC motor like I mentioned above, or running it off a tail shaft on
> the main traction motor. The advantage of the tail shaft is it's cheaper,
> and possibly more efficient, disavantage is it only runs when the main
> motor is spinning, so at long stops you'd need to idle the main motor
> (really poor efficiency), or get hot.
> The separate motor is probably the way to go.
I will try to find a 1hp/packvoltage motor (I am still not sure on pack voltage,
but 96 or more is probable)
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | Freedom's just another word
http://e.nn.cl | for nothing left to lose.
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 03:48:39PM -0800, Bob Bath wrote:
> Hi Eduardo, and welcome to the list.
> My Honda Civic started as 2220 lbs, and after
> batteries is 3330. I can assure you that 9" motor is
> fine, as I'm running 144V on an 8" motor with the
> weight listed.
> I use a sunroof, and allow convection to do the work.
> No air conditioning for me anymore, as it would
> decrease my range twice: once by pulling needed drive
> current, and the second time, by mounting the
> compressor. It would eliminate at least the space of
> one battery, if not more.
> Hope that helps.
>
yes. space for batteries I have. budget for them not that much :)
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | Freedom's just another word
http://e.nn.cl | for nothing left to lose.
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yep, 108 ft-lbs is more torque than used for 1/2" head bolts!
108 in-lbs is 10 ft-lbs, or maybe 108 was a metric number?
Dave Cover wrote:
--- Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my motor at
about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds, and I have
double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding bolt types
and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing.
I'd double check the torque you're looking for. 108 ft lbs sounds awfully high
for 1/4 20. I'd bet
dollars to doughnuts it should be 108 inch lbs. I have 10-32 bolts on my
NiCads that are supposed
to be tightened to 50 inch lbs. 1/4 20 isn't much larger than that.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And the third option is..
The two DC motors on the same controller you would of had before on just
1 motor (and a decent enough pack voltage to do this for a few thousand
RPM) You will still get twice the torque off the line as with one motor.
Obviously this goes to sleep pretty fast as the rpm's climb and a switch
from series to parallel is called for. Where again you get twice the
torque per amp you would of had with only one motor Up to the limit of
the controller.
Luckly the zilla handles this beutifully.
Correct me if I am wrong, but for most road EV's with S/P switched
motors, The limit at higher rpms is NOT the amps in the motor loop, it
is the 170 V commutator limit - the BEMF increaseing the reactance and
thus decreasing the amount the motors draw in amps. 2 motors allows you
to use the max of your controller longer.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you really tried to torque these to 108 ft-lbs, it wasn't the screws'
fault. No 1/4 -20 screw would survive anywhere near that torque. The
typical recommended torque for 1/4-20 screws is 100 inch-pounds for grade 5
screws, and 140 inch-lbs for grade 8.
108 ft-lbs is the same as 1296 inch-lbs.
Phil
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Source for bolts Help please!
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 18:48:48 -0600
I need a recommendation on a supply source. Some of you guys I am sure can
tell me.
I ran into a problem yesterday when I found out that some 1/4 20 allen
bolts I purchased appear to be case hardened and not machined Grade 8's the
way they were presented to me. I believe the problem to be is the bolts I
purchased from a local vendor are made in Taiwan and are soft on the
inside. I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my
motor at about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds,
and I have double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding
bolt types and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing.
The bolts shipped with the taperlocks all appear to Grade 5 and
apparently work ok (but are for front mount), so I am betting it is just a
cheap bolt. This was apparent when I had a lot of difficulty fishing the
broken piece out. The visegrips were able to chew it up, so they are soft
on the inside and snap with a sickening "clink".
Does anyone know of a vendor where I can get good quality Allen or other US
made bolts? I need some of the 1/4 20 cap screws 3" long.
No more chinese bolts for me!!!!!
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
_________________________________________________________________
Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is a great suggestion, Lee. As an addition, you might try driving the
car you are going to convert in that same manner. Remember, synchros wear,
and your particular car may need to have them replaced before becoming
clutchless. W/ ICE, we could shift w/o clutch even in the big rigs, which
had zero synchros back in the golden age... but you had to guess speed
perfectly. (A motor RPM gauge helped considerably.)
If your car has racing options available, it's also possible to buy a
lighter flywheel, in some cases... if you should choose to go w/ a clutch.
Once cars get around to going all-electric w/ trannies, I expect we'll see
locking units available. An electric has too much torque (and no real need)
of a clutch. All you really need is a way to disengage, shift, then lock up
again. No slippage required.
A tranny replacement unit could be similar to the overdrive units of golden
days. These didn't use a clutch, and were very similar to shifting w/o
one... you let up on the gas and shoved it into "high" drive. The difference
is that they never seemed to wear out the synchros. These also weighed about
1/4th the weight of your standard tranny... 2 gear sets. I have no idea if
these are still made in the aftermarket, but they were still available back
in the late 1980's. Many of us racers used them on our cars, so we could
actually drive at 65MPH.
> I think you should drive a sample vehicle with the intended transmission,
and try to shift it clutchless (with its ICE). If you can do it with that
heavy ICE without grinding or excessively slow shifts, it will work even
better as an EV with an electric motor and no flywheel.
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors battery , comments
> > I took a look. I'm inpressed. Obviouslt the Good Folks at Tesla are
> >doing something right?They seem to be willing to share the battery tech,
> >too.
>
> Oh, really? I have a customer who has a friend who has put down one
> of the deposits for a Tesla. They have been trying for two months to
> get battery info to try to get a battery pack for my customer's
> car. They gave up, said no one returns their calls.
>
> Oh, they're ready to LICENSE their battery tech? Let's see, that
> means they've found another way to get people to give them money for
> something that may or may not work.
I would tend to agree with you. Ah, heck, I agree 100%. We can expect great
things from Tesla when they deliver a product, any product, even a POS.
Thus far, what have they shown??? That a $1M car can go about as far as a
full tank of gas in a SUV? Of course, it's like (what?) 3 months of
testing/charging the batts before this wonder machine does it again???
The press doesn't cover their failures, of course. For this, I am very
impressed. From back sources (totally unreliable) one learns of the
failures... 20 minutes into a run they died... and so forth. That's just new
technology.
OK... I'm a total skeptic. Show me a car that works, at any price, and I'll
be impressed. Turn over a single unit, at any price, with any supervision,
and let this car do its job... in the hands of an average ICE driver... a
total novice. I don't care if the car has to have the unit cost of a
helicopter per mile... just show me that it can function, on any basis, in
the real world. (BTW, helicopters in the VN era took hours of maintenance
per hour of operation. Some required 12 hours of maintenance for a single
hour of operation.) I can only assume this car will take similar
maintenance... hours of work to get a few spectacular minutes of
operation... until they prove us wrong.
In the meantime, I can not see a single way that one can overcome all those
connections and batt failure points, to deliver a product that will work.
It'd be much like building your computer from discrete components... all
those thousands of switching circuits (currently on the processor) from
individual units. This car isn't quite that extreme, but it gives a picture.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is an EV ('48 Anglia) that uses a transmission-less setup with a
Polaris CVT that gave it a 1:4 to 1:1 gearing range.
I've tried to track down more info on this CVT, but haven't found much.
The ATV's its used in have up to 200hp. I talked to a Polaris dealer,
he said the CVT is more like a clutch and they have a separate
transmission, told me the two pulleys and belt would be roughly $800.
That isn't too expensive really, it would weigh A LOT LESS than a
regular car transmission. Note a car transmission gives you reverse
without needing to use reversing contactors for a serial DC motor.
Personally I think an AC motor with a CVT setup is the way to go.. :)
Jack
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm looking into this right now Tony, perhaps there is a manufacturer who 'got
clever' in some way and electrified their autobax, which takes the hydraulic
change aspect out of the equation.
Also under investigation is hte possibility of modifying one of the several
types of CVT fitted in the past 15 years or so...For fitted one to the 'Fiesta'
in the UK over 12 years ago and they're cheap from scrapyards.
As well as that I'm also looking out for an overdrive unit fitted to the older
sports cars, and also the newer and older 4x4's
GKN make an electric overdrive with a 28% ratio reduction, which can be engaged
on the run, it could be helpful, but I'ld sooner look into the CVT idea first,
if anyone has any input on CVT's I'ld love to hear from you....it seems Toyota
and Honda both do electrically operated CVT's, but you need to buy a hybrid
first to get one....
Cheers
Chris
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:39:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Geo Metros
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Disposition: inline
I think he meant swap the auto with someone else's manual, but I could be wrong.
:)
With an auto though, you'd get rid of the torque converter, right? This is a big
source of inefficiency, and is needed just cause the ICE can't stop at idle, I
believe.
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are several reasons people use the original transmissions in
conversions.
Here's one:
In front wheel drive cars, the transmission provides support and power to
the two front axles. If you remove the transmission, you have to come up
with some kind of differential to do this. So, it's easier and cheaper to
leave it in, even if you only need one gear ratio.
Your 63 Nova is rear-wheel drive, so you wouldn't have this problem - all
you would have to do is couple the motor to the existing drive shaft and use
the existing rear axle and differential.
Phil
From: JORDAN CRANE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Direct Drive
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 16:06:30 -0800
I've got a 63 chevy nova, and I'm working out the details
for the conversion. I've been reading about direct drive, and
everything I've read thus far points to this being the best and
most efficient way to go.
My question is this: Why, if direct drive is so good, aren't more
people doing it? Most conversions that I've read about, people
keep their transmission on in one way or another.
Thank you,
Jordan
_________________________________________________________________
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I would be interested to find out about the Anglia, if you get specs. Also
let us know if this is more than a belt and a couple adjustable (by RPM)
pulleys. That does qualify as a CVT, but isn't all that reliable, especially
if you are looking at powering an auto.
I won't doubt the 200HP rating too much. You have the specs. I just haven't
seen a snowmobile w/ that sort of "real" HP... as in torque and cubes... to
deliver that sort of power. I'd be interested to be proven wrong.
This sort of thing has been done in the past, BTW, back as far as the 70's
and probably earlier. It's similar in drag to a lower performance
auto-tranny, from what I've seen. The belts can last as long as 10K miles...
which is great performance considering the load required of them. It usually
works best on rigs under 600 lbs of weight.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: Clutchless gearbox
> There is an EV ('48 Anglia) that uses a transmission-less setup with a
> Polaris CVT that gave it a 1:4 to 1:1 gearing range.
> I've tried to track down more info on this CVT, but haven't found much.
> The ATV's its used in have up to 200hp. I talked to a Polaris dealer,
> he said the CVT is more like a clutch and they have a separate
> transmission, told me the two pulleys and belt would be roughly $800.
> That isn't too expensive really, it would weigh A LOT LESS than a
> regular car transmission. Note a car transmission gives you reverse
> without needing to use reversing contactors for a serial DC motor.
>
> Personally I think an AC motor with a CVT setup is the way to go.. :)
>
> Jack
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When you order any type of bolt, look at the psi tension specs.
If a bolt is rated at 30,000 psi so we now use the following formula:
Torque = (.05 x Diameter of bolt in inches x 30,000)/12
A 1/4 inch diameter bolt will have a torque value of:
Torque = (.05 x 0.25 x 30000)/12 = 31.25 ft lbs.
Some aircraft bolts have a value of 180,000 psi so:
Torque = (.05 x 0.25 x 180000)/12 = 187.5 ft lbs.
Forget about trying to cut these with a hack saw. It takes a tungsten cutoff
disk.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:02 PM
Subject: RE: Source for bolts Help please!
> Mark, was this Fastenal where you got the fake bolts? I am quite
> surprised.
> It also sounds like a very high torque amount for a 1/4" bolt.
>
> However, you should be able to get aircraft AN bolts from aircraft spruce
> www.aircraftspruce.com they are often what race car builders use.
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark Ward
> Sent: December 1, 2006 4:49 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Source for bolts Help please!
>
> I need a recommendation on a supply source. Some of you guys I am sure
> can
> tell me.
>
> I ran into a problem yesterday when I found out that some 1/4 20 allen
> bolts
> I purchased appear to be case hardened and not machined Grade 8's the way
> they were presented to me. I believe the problem to be is the bolts I
> purchased from a local vendor are made in Taiwan and are soft on the
> inside.
>
> I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my motor at
> about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds, and I have
> double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding bolt types
> and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing. The
> bolts
> shipped with the taperlocks all appear to Grade 5 and apparently work ok
> (but are for front mount), so I am betting it is just a cheap bolt. This
> was
> apparent when I had a lot of difficulty fishing the broken piece out. The
> visegrips were able to chew it up, so they are soft on the inside and snap
> with a sickening "clink".
>
> Does anyone know of a vendor where I can get good quality Allen or other
> US
> made bolts? I need some of the 1/4 20 cap screws 3" long.
>
> No more chinese bolts for me!!!!!
>
> Mark Ward
> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
>
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> On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 06:19:42PM -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>
>> > Second question is accesorys. Both cars are Citroens. They need
>> > a hidraulic pump running for suspension, brakes and steering. An
>> electric
>> > 12volt motor spinning at something like an ICE idle is doable?
> 1HP? I was thinking I could make it with something like this:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140059399444
Do you think you could hook a set of bicycle pedals up to the pump and
power it that way? This motor (running on 24V) is about as powerful as a
mediocre cyclist.
On 12V this motor is about as powerful as the average couch potato.
If you think you could pedal power all of those systems, then this motor
might work. I think you'll need a bit more power.
>
>
>> >
>> > Third is airconditioning. Where I live it gets hot in the summer
>> > and A/C is a much welcomed addition. Whats the usual route for that?
>>
>> A/C usually requires about 2hp. Normal routes are either a small pack
>> voltage DC motor like I mentioned above, or running it off a tail shaft
>
> I will try to find a 1hp/packvoltage motor (I am still not sure on pack
> voltage,
> but 96 or more is probable)
Try looking here:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2006120123531814&catname=electric&keyword=MBDD
You don't need to mathc the pack voltage precisely, just get in the
neighborhood. If the motor is rated at less than pack voltage, then it
will spin a bit fast, if rated at more than pack voltage, a bit slow.
>
> --
> Eduardo K. |
> http://www.carfun.cl | Freedom's just another word
> http://e.nn.cl | for nothing left to lose.
> |
>
>
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Michael,
Have you had a ride in the Tesla Roadster, see it perform
during the whole day, for example at the Palo Alto EV show
and rally, or did you have a close-up with the Wrightspeed,
which essentially uses the same AC Propulsion drive train
and the same ideas in battery technology as the Tesla?
You should talk to Ian Wright (who visited not only the Palo
Alto EV show and gave wild rides, but also demonstrated his
vehicle months before the Tesla unveiling, visited the
Silicon Valley EAA meeting and gave again wild rides in the
empty parking lot. Approximately 1 G force acceleration and
deceleration (braking), only limited by the traction of the
DOT tires.
His car had a bit damage to the nose cone at that time, as
a potential buyer was driving it days before on the
mountainous roads, I believe the CA-9, when he punched it
too early while coming out of a corner. Car spun and hit a
lightpole and curb. He quickly fixed the alignment damage
from the curb and was demonstrating it without issues.
He would very much like to find buyers, so if you have
some money to put where your mouth already is, then give
him a ring.
(When asked if the driver would pay the damage, Ian
joked that he would not charge for the repairs if he
sold the car to him)
You will then receive essentially an Arial Atom
http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/
with the latest drivetrain that can be licensed from ACP
and an even more unique battery system.
If you want to know more about the battery box then you
should talk to Mike Phillips, who talked to great length
about computer controlled milling of the aluminum box with
Ian, as he had milled the prototype with manual control.
I am at a loss why you are so skeptic. Tesla is for real.
a long time EV'er is their head engineering, check their
website for the name Straubel.
You can visit them very close to hear, in San Carlos.
They may be a little busy righ now as they are ramping up
their production to deliver the Signature 100 series
early in 2007. The second series of 100 was already sold
out as well, several months ago. No doubt them have even
more customers now, because they had their red Roadster
on the San Francisco auto show a week ago.
Eddie DaRocha detailed it for the show, he is the guy
with one of the first ACP drivetrains (only 100 kW)
in a white Saturn with a battery tunnel through the
center of the car, full of yellow tops. Still running
as a charm while more than 10 years old. He charged it
at the maximum that my house wiring can deliver:
240V 50A (I ran a 6/3 extension cord out to the driveway)
and although it is different chemistry, it shows that
the ACP drivetrain can deliver and charge at high power.
Of course I am interested in the nitty gritty of the
Lithium batteries that the Tesla uses.
But I know that it works, I have seen it work and
perform at more than one occasion and even personally
experienced it's power.
So, which color do you want yours?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors battery , comments
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors battery , comments
> > I took a look. I'm inpressed. Obviouslt the Good Folks at Tesla are
> >doing something right?They seem to be willing to share the battery tech,
> >too.
>
> Oh, really? I have a customer who has a friend who has put down one
> of the deposits for a Tesla. They have been trying for two months to
> get battery info to try to get a battery pack for my customer's
> car. They gave up, said no one returns their calls.
>
> Oh, they're ready to LICENSE their battery tech? Let's see, that
> means they've found another way to get people to give them money for
> something that may or may not work.
I would tend to agree with you. Ah, heck, I agree 100%. We can expect great
things from Tesla when they deliver a product, any product, even a POS.
Thus far, what have they shown??? That a $1M car can go about as far as a
full tank of gas in a SUV? Of course, it's like (what?) 3 months of
testing/charging the batts before this wonder machine does it again???
The press doesn't cover their failures, of course. For this, I am very
impressed. From back sources (totally unreliable) one learns of the
failures... 20 minutes into a run they died... and so forth. That's just new
technology.
OK... I'm a total skeptic. Show me a car that works, at any price, and I'll
be impressed. Turn over a single unit, at any price, with any supervision,
and let this car do its job... in the hands of an average ICE driver... a
total novice. I don't care if the car has to have the unit cost of a
helicopter per mile... just show me that it can function, on any basis, in
the real world. (BTW, helicopters in the VN era took hours of maintenance
per hour of operation. Some required 12 hours of maintenance for a single
hour of operation.) I can only assume this car will take similar
maintenance... hours of work to get a few spectacular minutes of
operation... until they prove us wrong.
In the meantime, I can not see a single way that one can overcome all those
connections and batt failure points, to deliver a product that will work.
It'd be much like building your computer from discrete components... all
those thousands of switching circuits (currently on the processor) from
individual units. This car isn't quite that extreme, but it gives a picture.
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Peter wrote:
> The advantage of the tail shaft is it's cheaper,
> and possibly more efficient, disavantage is it
> only runs when the main motor is spinning, so at
> long stops you'd need to idle the main motor
> (really poor efficiency)
You are contradicting yourself.
The tailshaft is the cheapest AND the most efficient
way to implement the accessories, exactly the same
way as the ICE has its accessories powered from a belt.
Since the motor is so much larger, it has a much better
efficiency - possibly only the belt can cause some losses,
but you can run 2 or 3 accessories from the same one so
the overall losses will be very limited and likely better
than running 3 small motors with each it's own controller
and it is certainly cheaper to leave the existing alternator,
power steering pump, Airco and hydraulic suspension pumps
in place and only replace the ICE with an electric motor.
Note that the suspension stays pressurized for a long time,
as long as you do not hit the control to drop it down,
so it may even be possible to not idle the motor unless
you have the Airco on or the suspension asks for pressure.
This is the same type of control as the classic Prius uses
to engage the engine continuously when the Airco is on and
when the battery needs recharge.
I have owned a Citroen BX for a short while. It was always
noticeable when the suspension pump engaged itself - it
was comparable as having the Airco pump start and the
effect on the driving experience (sudden loss of power)
Although the suspension pump engaged itself for short
periods of only 5 seconds or so - you can compare it to the
vacuum pump that refills a small vacuum reservoir for the
power brakes.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Some newbie questions
> Second question is accesorys. Both cars are Citroens. They need
> a hidraulic pump running for suspension, brakes and steering. An electric
> 12volt motor spinning at something like an ICE idle is doable?
Not really. That's going to require a fair amount of power, perhaps as
much as 1hp. to produce 1hp at 12V requires something like 90-100 amps.
You are much better off using a small motor that runs at pack voltage,
perhaps something like a surplus treadmill motor. These are pretty cheap
and much more efficient that most of the 1hp 12V motors, plus you won't
need a huge DC/DC converter.
> How much
> power would something like that eat? I can live without power steering
> in the smaller car, but not on the larger one.
>
> Third is airconditioning. Where I live it gets hot in the summer
> and A/C is a much welcomed addition. Whats the usual route for that?
A/C usually requires about 2hp. Normal routes are either a small pack
voltage DC motor like I mentioned above, or running it off a tail shaft on
the main traction motor. The advantage of the tail shaft is it's cheaper,
and possibly more efficient, disavantage is it only runs when the main
motor is spinning, so at long stops you'd need to idle the main motor
(really poor efficiency), or get hot.
The separate motor is probably the way to go.
>
> Many thanks...
>
>
> --
> Eduardo K. |
> http://www.carfun.cl | "World domination, now"
> http://e.nn.cl | Linus Torvalds
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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