EV Digest 6183
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Clutchless gearbox CVT Warning
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Direct Drive
by Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Some newbie questions
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Direct Drive
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RAV4 conversion?
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Some newbie questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Geo Metros
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Geo Metros
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Tesla Motors battery , comments, MORE
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Source for bolts Help please!
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) cvt's, power transmission, I love this stuff!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: I will never complain about a pothole again! OT
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Source for bolts Help please!- Additional Info.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
CVT on ICE's have a disengage ranging from 800 to 1500
rpm. This is to allows the ICE engine to idle.
This is true of all CVT's. I am not sure if you can
adjust the idle out of a CVT. As to AC Drives, they do
not require a transmission per say. But use a fixed
ratio single speed gearbox. See Electro Automotive for
a description. Imagine a CVT engaged while trying to
pull start that Polaris. Honda Scooters (Elite,
Silverwings [2000 era]) have CVT transmissions. Some
of the Toyota and Honda cars had CVT transmission.
I am not saying using a CVT is impossible, I am just
saying to be aware of the CVT limitation.
--- Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There is an EV ('48 Anglia) that uses a
> transmission-less setup with a
> Polaris CVT that gave it a 1:4 to 1:1 gearing range.
> I've tried to track down more info on this CVT, but
> haven't found much.
> The ATV's its used in have up to 200hp. I talked to
> a Polaris dealer,
> he said the CVT is more like a clutch and they have
> a separate
> transmission, told me the two pulleys and belt would
> be roughly $800.
> That isn't too expensive really, it would weigh A
> LOT LESS than a
> regular car transmission. Note a car transmission
> gives you reverse
> without needing to use reversing contactors for a
> serial DC motor.
>
> Personally I think an AC motor with a CVT setup is
> the way to go.. :)
>
> Jack
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I'm looking into this right now Tony, perhaps
> there is a manufacturer who 'got clever' in some way
> and electrified their autobax, which takes the
> hydraulic change aspect out of the equation.
> > Also under investigation is hte possibility of
> modifying one of the several types of CVT fitted in
> the past 15 years or so...For fitted one to the
> 'Fiesta' in the UK over 12 years ago and they're
> cheap from scrapyards.
> > As well as that I'm also looking out for an
> overdrive unit fitted to the older sports cars, and
> also the newer and older 4x4's
> > GKN make an electric overdrive with a 28% ratio
> reduction, which can be engaged on the run, it could
> be helpful, but I'ld sooner look into the CVT idea
> first, if anyone has any input on CVT's I'ld love to
> hear from you....it seems Toyota and Honda both do
> electrically operated CVT's, but you need to buy a
> hybrid first to get one....
> >
> > Cheers
> > Chris
> >
> > Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:39:43 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: Geo Metros
> > To: [email protected]
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> > Message-ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Content-Disposition: inline
> >
> > I think he meant swap the auto with someone else's
> manual, but I could be wrong.
> > :)
> >
> > With an auto though, you'd get rid of the torque
> converter, right? This is a big
> > source of inefficiency, and is needed just cause
> the ICE can't stop at idle, I
> > believe.
> >
> > - Tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti 2.12.2006 kello 3.10:
A fixed reduction setup requires either a very high reving motor and
usually a high voltage pack connected to a high reduction, say
10:1. This
usually means an AC or brushless DC motor so that it can handle the
high
RPMs.
Not necessarily. Peugeot Partner Electric has 7,2:1 (if I remember
correctly) fixed reduction and max motor rpm about 8000 rpm. The
motor is brushed DC, although shunt wound. The battery pack is 162 V.
WHile not as expensive as they used to be, this still tends to be
somewhat more expensive than the commonly used series wound brushed DC
motor. And you usually have to add an expensive, custom,
transmission.
That is true...
So the reason they aren't more common is because they are almost
always
more expensive, and the efficiency advantage is somewhere between
small
and non-existent.
If you drive a lot with higher speeds there might be an advantage on
using a specially made fixed reduction compared to a transmission box
whining on a low gear on abnormal high speed with a lot of
freewheeling gears in oil bath inside. I don't know exact figures but
just to throw in a case, let's say fixed reduction efficiency is 0.9
and transmission on 3rd is 0.8. Difference would be about 10%. If
your range is, say 50 miles, that is 5 miles diffference.
Seppo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Some newbie questions
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:04:12 -0800
Peter wrote:
> The advantage of the tail shaft is it's cheaper,
> and possibly more efficient, disavantage is it
> only runs when the main motor is spinning, so at
> long stops you'd need to idle the main motor
> (really poor efficiency)
You are contradicting yourself.
The tailshaft is the cheapest AND the most efficient
way to implement the accessories, exactly the same
way as the ICE has its accessories powered from a belt.
It depends.
As Peter said, if you are idling the traction motor at low power just to
supply power to the accessories (at a stop light, for example) it would be
very inefficient. In that case, you're using a very large motor at a small
fraction of its capacity. That's wasteful of power.
For example, an ADC 8 incher needs 25-30 amps at 12 volts or more just to
run at a low speed with no external load. That's a 300 watts or more that
are wasted - just idling the motor. A smaller motor, better sized for the
accessories, would be much more efficient. And, belt drives cost energy
also, especially at low powers.
But, if you don't "idle" the traction motor, and accept the situation - that
you won't have accessory power when the car is stopped, it probably would be
the most efficient approach.
So, the answer is not black and white. But, that doesn't make it a
contradiction - just a thoughtful answer.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI, Roland
This formula can't be right.
Here are three things wrong with it:
1. It predicts 31 ft-lbs ( or 372 in-lbs) for a 1/4 inch grade 1 bolt ( 30
kpsi is a grade 1 bolt). The correct torque is closer to 50 in-lbs Even
1/4 inch grade 8 bolts are generally spec'd at about 150 in-lbs.
2. The torque from your formula is linear with bolt diameter. That is, if
you double the diameter in your formula, you get twice the torque. That's
wrong.
For example, your formula would come up with twice the torque for a 1/2
inch bolt as a 1/4 inch bolt. A 1/2 inch bolt of the same material as a
1/4 inch bolt would call for about 10 times the torque of the 1/4 incher,
not twice.
3. The allowable torque depends on three things: the bolt material, the
bolt major diameter, and the pitch (threads per inch). For example, a
1/4-28 bolt is generally spec'ed at about 15% more torque than a 1/4-s0.
That's because the finer thread is shallower and does not reduce the root
area of the bolt as much as a coarser thread. Your formula ignores thread
pitch.
The best ( and only reasonable way) to determine what torque to use is to
find a torque table that all three properties of your bolt : material ( or
grade) , diameter, and pitch (threads per inch).
Phil
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Source for bolts Help please!
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:06:33 -0700
When you order any type of bolt, look at the psi tension specs.
If a bolt is rated at 30,000 psi so we now use the following formula:
Torque = (.05 x Diameter of bolt in inches x 30,000)/12
A 1/4 inch diameter bolt will have a torque value of:
Torque = (.05 x 0.25 x 30000)/12 = 31.25 ft lbs.
Some aircraft bolts have a value of 180,000 psi so:
Torque = (.05 x 0.25 x 180000)/12 = 187.5 ft lbs.
Forget about trying to cut these with a hack saw. It takes a tungsten
cutoff
disk.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:02 PM
Subject: RE: Source for bolts Help please!
> Mark, was this Fastenal where you got the fake bolts? I am quite
> surprised.
> It also sounds like a very high torque amount for a 1/4" bolt.
>
> However, you should be able to get aircraft AN bolts from aircraft
spruce
> www.aircraftspruce.com they are often what race car builders use.
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark Ward
> Sent: December 1, 2006 4:49 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Source for bolts Help please!
>
> I need a recommendation on a supply source. Some of you guys I am sure
> can
> tell me.
>
> I ran into a problem yesterday when I found out that some 1/4 20 allen
> bolts
> I purchased appear to be case hardened and not machined Grade 8's the
way
> they were presented to me. I believe the problem to be is the bolts I
> purchased from a local vendor are made in Taiwan and are soft on the
> inside.
>
> I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my motor
at
> about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds, and I
have
> double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding bolt
types
> and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing. The
> bolts
> shipped with the taperlocks all appear to Grade 5 and apparently work ok
> (but are for front mount), so I am betting it is just a cheap bolt. This
> was
> apparent when I had a lot of difficulty fishing the broken piece out.
The
> visegrips were able to chew it up, so they are soft on the inside and
snap
> with a sickening "clink".
>
> Does anyone know of a vendor where I can get good quality Allen or other
> US
> made bolts? I need some of the 1/4 20 cap screws 3" long.
>
> No more chinese bolts for me!!!!!
>
> Mark Ward
> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was really worried for a while. Torques are not my forte.
You guys are right, it is inch pounds not foot pounds. I am used to foot
pounds because that is all I have ever used around engines, etc. and my
torque wrenches are either metric or foot pounds.
Will re-calculate and try again!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: Source for bolts Help please!
yep, 108 ft-lbs is more torque than used for 1/2" head bolts!
108 in-lbs is 10 ft-lbs, or maybe 108 was a metric number?
Dave Cover wrote:
--- Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my motor at
about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds, and I
have double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding bolt
types and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing.
I'd double check the torque you're looking for. 108 ft lbs sounds awfully
high for 1/4 20. I'd bet
dollars to doughnuts it should be 108 inch lbs. I have 10-32 bolts on my
NiCads that are supposed
to be tightened to 50 inch lbs. 1/4 20 isn't much larger than that.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
JORDAN CRANE wrote:
> My question is this: Why, if direct drive is so good, aren't more
> people doing it? Most conversions that I've read about, people
> keep their transmission on in one way or another.
There are several reasons, including:
- most conversions are based on vehicles that include a transmission (it
is free)
- many conversions are based on FWD vehicles, and going trannyless with
one of these would require a fair bit of custom fabrication ($$$) to
connect the motor to the wheels (some form of differential required,
etc.)
- going to a fixed ratio (no tranny) typically requires a more powerful
controller and/or motor (more costly)
- if the vehicle is operated in a variety of driving conditions (e.g.
surface streets and highway), then a fixed ratio drivetrain tends to be
a bit less efficient than being able to shift to an appropriate gear for
the driving conditions.
That said, direct drive is the model of simplicity, and can work very
well when done properly.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone converted an ICE RAV4 to EV? My son has two and wants to
convert one after I sent him Who Killed the Electric Car.
John in Sylmar, CA 1981 Jet Electrica
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where abouts are you?
I used to have had good luck with our local Orchard Supply Hardware as
they carried allen brand, now I can't tell because the are pulling the 2
bolt bubble pack game.
I worked in a plastics plant with their own machine shop and we bought
all our bolts from a local nut and bolts house.(
http://www.midvalleydist.com/ here in fresno Ca) The cost was 1/2 to
1/10th of buying from orchard and no junk. IF your town has industry,
they probably have a similar place. Maybe call a few machine shops and
ask where they get their bolts from.
I know what you mean about chinese bolts, We bought some direct from a
chinese manufacturer for a big project and they were so bad that
dropping them on the floor popped the heads off some. I didn't know they
could do that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All,
I have now been running all my accessories off the pilot shaft of the motor
for 21 years now. These are standard units that you can go to any auto
parts store to purchase, nothing special.
The accessory units are not mounted directly to the motor frame like a
engine does. I want to be able to pull the motor and transmission together
from under the car without removing anything that is in front or above the
motor.
So, I use a GMC aluminum accessory mounting frame that is normally mounted
on the front of diesel engines. It comes with all the brackets to mount
these accessories. I bolted this frame to another aluminum 1/2 thick plate
that is mounted separately 12 inches in front of the motor.
The motor drives these accessories with a shaft threw two face bearings and
is couple with a DANA Flex spline coupler, where the motor can just unplug
from this coupler if its remove.
Did not use power V belts or a single belt. Use industrial cog belts, that
are design for electric motors and are not as stiff as power belts.
When belting several units off the main pulley, which should be about the
same diameter as a engine pulley, you should place the units at 90 degrees
from each other, so the each belt tension has the same force in 180 degree
directions from each other.
The accessories, unloaded which everything is up to pressure or has cycle
off, it takes less than 4 inch lbs of force to turn this accessories. It
may be lower than that, because my inch lb torque wrench does not go below 4
inch lbs.
Putting the EV in 1st gear which is a 19.5:1 overall ratio, I can turn all
these accessories plus move the car starting out at 8 inch lbs.
If I come to a short stop, I do not loose any braking, power steering,
vacuum, A/C, braking etc. If I am stop for more than 2 minutes, the power
steering becomes stiffer, but normally I am going in a straight line anyway.
If I am parking, a motor speed of 200 rpm is used anyway which keeps the
accessories units up to power.
The advantage here, is that I drawing no motor ampere either to drive the EV
or power the accessories when I am coasting to a stop, which may be for 3
blocks if the accessories are unloaded.
Even if the accessories are at maximum load, the motor ampere is still 0
amps while coasting, but this will slow me down in a 1/4 block like a the
compression of a ICE.
In the winter driving on hard pack wet glaze streets, I turn all my heating
and other systems on, so I can increase the load to over 4kw watt load on
the rotating inverter-alternator rated at 120 VAC at 7Kw which also at the
same time provide 14.5 volts DC, this can slow me to a stop and can even
hold the EV on a slope.
One circuit that I did not install, was a regen circuit using the rotating
inverter-alternator, because I ran out of room. What I need is a larger
vehicle. How this works is when you let up on the accelerator, a micro
switch in the motor accelerator control turns off two safety contactors
which are between the battery pack and controller.
This is control by a bank of switches to either select in auto-off-manual
mode.
Its then turn on another contactor to provide 120 VAC 60 hz from the
inverter to the onboard battery charger, which the battery charger would
have to be turn on and set to the current you want.
A industrial phase loss relay which controls the voltage limits, frequency,
overload protection is place in the circuit between the battery charger and
inverter which only turns on the inverter power only when all conditions are
met.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 6:31 AM
Subject: RE: Some newbie questions
>
>
>
> >From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: RE: Some newbie questions
> >Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:04:12 -0800
> >
> >Peter wrote:
> > > The advantage of the tail shaft is it's cheaper,
> > > and possibly more efficient, disavantage is it
> > > only runs when the main motor is spinning, so at
> > > long stops you'd need to idle the main motor
> > > (really poor efficiency)
> >
> >You are contradicting yourself.
> >The tailshaft is the cheapest AND the most efficient
> >way to implement the accessories, exactly the same
> >way as the ICE has its accessories powered from a belt.
> >
>
> It depends.
>
> As Peter said, if you are idling the traction motor at low power just to
> supply power to the accessories (at a stop light, for example) it would be
> very inefficient. In that case, you're using a very large motor at a
> small
> fraction of its capacity. That's wasteful of power.
>
> For example, an ADC 8 incher needs 25-30 amps at 12 volts or more just to
> run at a low speed with no external load. That's a 300 watts or more that
> are wasted - just idling the motor. A smaller motor, better sized for the
> accessories, would be much more efficient. And, belt drives cost energy
> also, especially at low powers.
>
>
> But, if you don't "idle" the traction motor, and accept the situation -
> that
> you won't have accessory power when the car is stopped, it probably would
> be
> the most efficient approach.
>
>
> So, the answer is not black and white. But, that doesn't make it a
> contradiction - just a thoughtful answer.
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered
> by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hate to slightly disagree with the experts but if a vehicle shifts up
without the clutch as an ICE well it will not automagically be better
with the electric motor and the light flywheel. The reduced spinning
mass helps the missmatch in rpms come in faster once you shove it in,
but there is no compression to bring the rpms down initially so you
spend more time against the syncros or you engage with a larger
difference. The RPM drop between 2 gear ratios does make a difference also.
if I am accelerating in second (1.902 * 3.7 = 7.037 OA ratio) at 30mph
and a 24" OD tire, I am spinning the wheels 840 rotations per
mile,840rpm at 60mph or 420rpm at 30mph. Multiply by 7.037 and the warp
9 is spinning 2956RPM.
if I am in third at 30 mph then the ratio of (1.308*3.7 = 4.8396). Same
wheel rpm of 420 gives me a motor rpm of 2033rpm
2956-2033 is a 923rpm drop
If you watch the tach on an Ice that takes fractions of a second
If you watch the tach on the electric, it takes seconds.
So perhaps the clutch pedal should be left in the vehicle and activate
the field of an alternator tied to the aux shaft when pressed. This will
bring in the rpms faster and help charge the aux battery. (you would
only use this during up shifts! )
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Phil,
The .05 factor in the formula is the thread factor. This could range from 0
to over .1. 0 is no threads at all. It also depends on the pitch, length
of threads, if the surface is dry or using thread lubricant.
If you use a bolt that is 3 inches long and have only 3/4 inch of thread on
it, this will be a different factor than a bolt that has full length thread
on it.
Also the material its tap into changes this factor. If I tap into a soft
block of aluminum, it will not have the holding power as a block of 80-H
aluminum which can only drill with tungsten drills.
I look at the formula in a hand book for electrical/mechanical engineers,
and its has not change. I think I found this one time on the WEB somewhere
when I was looking for aircraft titanium bolts.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 6:53 AM
Subject: Re: Source for bolts Help please!
> HI, Roland
>
> This formula can't be right.
>
> Here are three things wrong with it:
>
> 1. It predicts 31 ft-lbs ( or 372 in-lbs) for a 1/4 inch grade 1 bolt (
> 30
> kpsi is a grade 1 bolt). The correct torque is closer to 50 in-lbs Even
> 1/4 inch grade 8 bolts are generally spec'd at about 150 in-lbs.
>
>
> 2. The torque from your formula is linear with bolt diameter. That is, if
> you double the diameter in your formula, you get twice the torque. That's
> wrong.
> For example, your formula would come up with twice the torque for a 1/2
> inch bolt as a 1/4 inch bolt. A 1/2 inch bolt of the same material as a
> 1/4 inch bolt would call for about 10 times the torque of the 1/4 incher,
> not twice.
>
> 3. The allowable torque depends on three things: the bolt material, the
> bolt major diameter, and the pitch (threads per inch). For example, a
> 1/4-28 bolt is generally spec'ed at about 15% more torque than a 1/4-s0.
> That's because the finer thread is shallower and does not reduce the root
> area of the bolt as much as a coarser thread. Your formula ignores
> thread
> pitch.
>
> The best ( and only reasonable way) to determine what torque to use is to
> find a torque table that all three properties of your bolt : material ( or
> grade) , diameter, and pitch (threads per inch).
>
> Phil
>
>
> >From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: Source for bolts Help please!
> >Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:06:33 -0700
> >
> >When you order any type of bolt, look at the psi tension specs.
> >
> >If a bolt is rated at 30,000 psi so we now use the following formula:
> >
> > Torque = (.05 x Diameter of bolt in inches x 30,000)/12
> >
> >A 1/4 inch diameter bolt will have a torque value of:
> >
> > Torque = (.05 x 0.25 x 30000)/12 = 31.25 ft lbs.
> >
> >
> > Some aircraft bolts have a value of 180,000 psi so:
> >
> > Torque = (.05 x 0.25 x 180000)/12 = 187.5 ft lbs.
> >
> >Forget about trying to cut these with a hack saw. It takes a tungsten
> >cutoff
> >disk.
> >
> >Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:02 PM
> >Subject: RE: Source for bolts Help please!
> >
> >
> > > Mark, was this Fastenal where you got the fake bolts? I am quite
> > > surprised.
> > > It also sounds like a very high torque amount for a 1/4" bolt.
> > >
> > > However, you should be able to get aircraft AN bolts from aircraft
> >spruce
> > > www.aircraftspruce.com they are often what race car builders use.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> > >
> > > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > On
> > > Behalf Of Mark Ward
> > > Sent: December 1, 2006 4:49 PM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: Source for bolts Help please!
> > >
> > > I need a recommendation on a supply source. Some of you guys I am
> > > sure
> > > can
> > > tell me.
> > >
> > > I ran into a problem yesterday when I found out that some 1/4 20 allen
> > > bolts
> > > I purchased appear to be case hardened and not machined Grade 8's the
> >way
> > > they were presented to me. I believe the problem to be is the bolts I
> > > purchased from a local vendor are made in Taiwan and are soft on the
> > > inside.
> > >
> > > I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my motor
> >at
> > > about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds, and I
> >have
> > > double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding bolt
> >types
> > > and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing. The
> > > bolts
> > > shipped with the taperlocks all appear to Grade 5 and apparently work
> > > ok
> > > (but are for front mount), so I am betting it is just a cheap bolt.
> > > This
> > > was
> > > apparent when I had a lot of difficulty fishing the broken piece out.
> >The
> > > visegrips were able to chew it up, so they are soft on the inside and
> >snap
> > > with a sickening "clink".
> > >
> > > Does anyone know of a vendor where I can get good quality Allen or
> > > other
> > > US
> > > made bolts? I need some of the 1/4 20 cap screws 3" long.
> > >
> > > No more chinese bolts for me!!!!!
> > >
> > > Mark Ward
> > > 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> > > www.saabrina.blogspot.com
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by
> style,
> age, and price. Try it!
> http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do some shifting with a 120v pack, 8" ADC motor, Cursit controller. Always
start out in 2nd gear, go to 3rd. If I want to impress people, start in 1st!
But never any issues with shifting - it's easy and don't miss the clutch. Of
course, mine is an '86 - newer cars may be different.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Geo Metros
> H i Steve and all
> for those trying to deside , a little more info would be good , like the
size of your motor , voltage , and size of controller ,,,, My guess is you
have a under 144 v pack , somewhat heavy car , small motor . So you do a lot
of shifting. By a lot I mean from every stop .
>
> > From: Steve Powers <
> >
> > I had 2 clutchless EV's. Both ran on DC. My experience was not as
good, and I don't recommend it.
> >
> > Safety issues - no mechanical disconnect
> > Performance - it does take longer and is more difficult to shift
> >
>
> Now Victor has a hi rpm ac motor so he's good in 2nd to about what ? 70
mph ,
> I> Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ACRX is essentially "clutchless". I have clutch, but it's so stiff
> > (otherwise slips) that linkage cable jacket shrinks enough to
> > prevent full dis-engagement (sp?) so I ended up not using clutch
> > at all, and didn't miss it. It is on the second gear at all times.
> >
> > Victor
>
> don't think the type of car makes as much of a difference as what parts
are going into it .
> Both sides might agree on this :-)
> Steve Clunn
>
> Joseph's
> > Joseph H. Strubhar wrote:
> > > Yes - I have a '86 Metro that is clutchless
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release Date: 11/30/2006
3:41 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors battery , comments
> lol
> A little optimistic I think. : )
>
> -Tehben
> Hi EVerybody;
OK I may have gone off the deep end, on Tesla's stuff, yesterday, like
Sheri, I have seen 'way too many EV projects die off, for lack of SOMETHING.
Citi car, Segway, Silver Volt, Henny Kilowatt, all those guys. Only thing I
can see about Tesla, other than a relatively realistic product is these guys
have MONEY! Money to throw at the EV issues, as I believe that the Electric
Car's issues aren't technical, but political! We all have scene the movie
WKtEC, right? Money talks, RUNS the USA, anyhow. With the Best Govt. Oil
Money can Buy, in power and isn't too likely to change anytime soon.
Tesla has the bux that EVerybody else didn't/doesen't have. Yeah! I know
Bob Aronson went through piles of money back in the 60's but it was chump
change, ditto Bob Beaumont,compared to Tesla's bankroll. In that he sold 100
plus Roadsters, GOT deposits, they will be able to attract more volture, I
mean venture capitalists. Maybe they can do things right, I see a golden
oportunity here if they keep their shit together? Look at all the publicity
they have gotten? Common folks have heard of Tesla. People have commented to
me around town" Have ya heard of that Tesla roadster, in CA?Bit pricy right
now, but IF they come down?"I would say more Joe Sixchips have heard about
the Tesla than the EV-1 or Rav-4;'s which DID exist, still do.
So, in my fantesy World, or Perfect World thinking I like to daydream
into. The cars get built, and go to loving owners. Happy Movers and shakers,
celebs and whatnot, they WILL be on the TV Snooze, Fox, "Fair an' Balanced"
Sometimes, they WILL be talked up. Yes. I think they, the cars will have
startup problems? But everything ELSE did , long ago, The Wright Bros didn't
come up with the Concorde, Wright away, or even a 707<g>!Concorde may not be
a good example, but ya gotta admit it was an elegent aircraft, dispite it's
lousy miliage, high upkeep costs.It took only about 10 years to perfect the
electric trolley car, in the 1800's And you electric drag racing guyz are
rediscovering technology from the Nineties, the EIGHTEEN Ninties!As I write.
To try to get back on topic;Tesla may be the car, and company, whose
TIMING is about just right? Gas is going up in 5 and 10 cent incriments,
AGAIN! We aren't supposed to notice after the elections? Yeah! Right! Back
in 23 sense a gal daze who CARED about a cheese wedge 25 MPH car, being
built in Sebring FLA? Bob Aronson never could decide WHAT to build, as to a
production car, Silly(Silver) Volt comes to mind.Of all the EFP years of"
production"I think Roland Weinch has one example?He is obviously an
electrical engineer and can keep it going.If more of these were built NOW
EFP would have full order books?No, a 7000 lb car isn't the answer,out
Beasties the Red Beastie? but it would find loving homes just from Listers.
I mean, Gees! people EVen restore/ use Citicars! THEN they, after the
electric bug has bitten, move up to REAL EV's built by their own hand ,
well, conversions.Other folks, not as handy , hope and prey for SOMEBODY to
do a afordable EV. Jerry Dycus? Got yur ears on<g>?Roll out at Battery Beach
Burnout, we hope?
Seeya there?
Bob in tropical CT 50 degrees today! No snow yet!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: Source for bolts Help please!
> Where abouts are you?
> I used to have had good luck with our local Orchard Supply Hardware as
> they carried allen brand, now I can't tell because the are pulling the 2
> bolt bubble pack game.
> I worked in a plastics plant with their own machine shop and we bought
> all our bolts from a local nut and bolts house.(
> http://www.midvalleydist.com/ here in fresno Ca) The cost was 1/2 to
> 1/10th of buying from orchard and no junk. IF your town has industry,
> they probably have a similar place. Maybe call a few machine shops and
> ask where they get their bolts from.
>
> I know what you mean about chinese bolts, We bought some direct from a
> chinese manufacturer for a big project and they were so bad that
> dropping them on the floor popped the heads off some. I didn't know they
> could do that.
> Some EVen come headless!
> Wow! That's scary! I wonder where the CHINESE buy their good bolts that
hold their nuke subs and jet fighters, 300 MPH Maglev trains and locomotives
together<g>!I had Chinese bearings in my ADC 9" motor, they wore out pretty
quick. Got Japanesy ones now. Didn't we make them in USA? Hard to find! The
bolts an' nuts found in Japanese cars are sure nice to work with. Nice and
shiny, lusturus chrome or Cadmium plated, they even LOOK nice! Recyclind as
many as I can on the Sentras.
Mt two bolts worth
Bob
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.4/563 - Release Date: 12/2/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff,
It was a misinterpretation on my part of inch pounds vs. foot pounds on my
torque wrench. A brain fart if you wish caused by my background in
electrical, not mechanical engineering!
I do agree about the chinese bolts and am going monday to a supplier for
machine shops in STL for some USA made ones.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: Source for bolts Help please!
Where abouts are you?
I used to have had good luck with our local Orchard Supply Hardware as
they carried allen brand, now I can't tell because the are pulling the 2
bolt bubble pack game.
I worked in a plastics plant with their own machine shop and we bought
all our bolts from a local nut and bolts house.(
http://www.midvalleydist.com/ here in fresno Ca) The cost was 1/2 to
1/10th of buying from orchard and no junk. IF your town has industry,
they probably have a similar place. Maybe call a few machine shops and
ask where they get their bolts from.
I know what you mean about chinese bolts, We bought some direct from a
chinese manufacturer for a big project and they were so bad that
dropping them on the floor popped the heads off some. I didn't know they
could do that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
always in search of a better way, (for small vehicle enthusiasts) like
myself. found on howstuffworks.com- hydrostatic transmissions, click other
types,
lists hydrostatic transmissions as being a type of cvt? also, hydromechanical
for larger vehicles and sequential gearboxes are interesting! has anyone
ever done a study of power loss/effeciency of different types of torque
multipliers and power transmission? a simple chain drive seems the best to me,
but
all the mess that comes with it is a pain- anyway, I am learning alot of
useful
information simply by reading these posts from people who have been there
and done that, so thanx, you guys' up there, I, (for one), am glad I found
this
site, and the ev album is amazing! frank walker.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.chrisgreaves.com/rusfedhwy/ Some how this got stripped. Lets
try again. Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forgot to add, that these are torque ratings are the shear breaking point of
these bolts. If the bolt is test to shear at 100 ft lbs then the a
recommended lower torque value will be selected by the manufacturer.
This is not the recommended torque of the bolt you would install it at.
> Hello Phil,
>
> The .05 factor in the formula is the thread factor. This could range from
> 0 to over .1. 0 is no threads at all. It also depends on the pitch,
> length of threads, if the surface is dry or using thread lubricant.
>
> If you use a bolt that is 3 inches long and have only 3/4 inch of thread
> on it, this will be a different factor than a bolt that has full length
> thread on it.
>
> Also the material its tap into changes this factor. If I tap into a soft
> block of aluminum, it will not have the holding power as a block of 80-H
> aluminum which can only drill with tungsten drills.
>
> I look at the formula in a hand book for electrical/mechanical engineers,
> and its has not change. I think I found this one time on the WEB
> somewhere when I was looking for aircraft titanium bolts.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 6:53 AM
> Subject: Re: Source for bolts Help please!
>
>
> > HI, Roland
> >
> > This formula can't be right.
> >
> > Here are three things wrong with it:
> >
> > 1. It predicts 31 ft-lbs ( or 372 in-lbs) for a 1/4 inch grade 1 bolt
> > ( 30
> > kpsi is a grade 1 bolt). The correct torque is closer to 50 in-lbs Even
> > 1/4 inch grade 8 bolts are generally spec'd at about 150 in-lbs.
> >
> >
> > 2. The torque from your formula is linear with bolt diameter. That is,
> > if
> > you double the diameter in your formula, you get twice the torque.
> > That's
> > wrong.
> > For example, your formula would come up with twice the torque for a 1/2
> > inch bolt as a 1/4 inch bolt. A 1/2 inch bolt of the same material as
> > a
> > 1/4 inch bolt would call for about 10 times the torque of the 1/4
> > incher,
> > not twice.
> >
> > 3. The allowable torque depends on three things: the bolt material,
> > the
> > bolt major diameter, and the pitch (threads per inch). For example, a
> > 1/4-28 bolt is generally spec'ed at about 15% more torque than a 1/4-s0.
> > That's because the finer thread is shallower and does not reduce the
> > root
> > area of the bolt as much as a coarser thread. Your formula ignores
> > thread
> > pitch.
> >
> > The best ( and only reasonable way) to determine what torque to use is
> > to
> > find a torque table that all three properties of your bolt : material
> > ( or
> > grade) , diameter, and pitch (threads per inch).
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> > >From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >To: <[email protected]>
> > >Subject: Re: Source for bolts Help please!
> > >Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:06:33 -0700
> > >
> > >When you order any type of bolt, look at the psi tension specs.
> > >
> > >If a bolt is rated at 30,000 psi so we now use the following formula:
> > >
> > > Torque = (.05 x Diameter of bolt in inches x 30,000)/12
> > >
> > >A 1/4 inch diameter bolt will have a torque value of:
> > >
> > > Torque = (.05 x 0.25 x 30000)/12 = 31.25 ft lbs.
> > >
> > >
> > > Some aircraft bolts have a value of 180,000 psi so:
> > >
> > > Torque = (.05 x 0.25 x 180000)/12 = 187.5 ft lbs.
> > >
> > >Forget about trying to cut these with a hack saw. It takes a tungsten
> > >cutoff
> > >disk.
> > >
> > >Roland
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: <[email protected]>
> > >Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:02 PM
> > >Subject: RE: Source for bolts Help please!
> > >
> > >
> > > > Mark, was this Fastenal where you got the fake bolts? I am quite
> > > > surprised.
> > > > It also sounds like a very high torque amount for a 1/4" bolt.
> > > >
> > > > However, you should be able to get aircraft AN bolts from aircraft
> > >spruce
> > > > www.aircraftspruce.com they are often what race car builders use.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> > > >
> > > > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > On
> > > > Behalf Of Mark Ward
> > > > Sent: December 1, 2006 4:49 PM
> > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > Subject: Source for bolts Help please!
> > > >
> > > > I need a recommendation on a supply source. Some of you guys I am
> > > > sure
> > > > can
> > > > tell me.
> > > >
> > > > I ran into a problem yesterday when I found out that some 1/4 20
> > > > allen
> > > > bolts
> > > > I purchased appear to be case hardened and not machined Grade 8's
> > > > the
> > >way
> > > > they were presented to me. I believe the problem to be is the bolts
> > > > I
> > > > purchased from a local vendor are made in Taiwan and are soft on the
> > > > inside.
> > > >
> > > > I managed to break two of them off installing my taperlock on my
> > > > motor
> > >at
> > > > about 30 pounds of torque. The specs call for 108 foot pounds, and
> > > > I
> > >have
> > > > double checked this both in the machinist's handbook (regarding bolt
> > >types
> > > > and torques) and the data that came with the taperlock bushing.
> > > > The
> > > > bolts
> > > > shipped with the taperlocks all appear to Grade 5 and apparently
> > > > work ok
> > > > (but are for front mount), so I am betting it is just a cheap bolt.
> > > > This
> > > > was
> > > > apparent when I had a lot of difficulty fishing the broken piece
> > > > out.
> > >The
> > > > visegrips were able to chew it up, so they are soft on the inside
> > > > and
> > >snap
> > > > with a sickening "clink".
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know of a vendor where I can get good quality Allen or
> > > > other
> > > > US
> > > > made bolts? I need some of the 1/4 20 cap screws 3" long.
> > > >
> > > > No more chinese bolts for me!!!!!
> > > >
> > > > Mark Ward
> > > > 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> > > > www.saabrina.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by
> > style,
> > age, and price. Try it!
> > http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
