EV Digest 6202
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Need a Rev Limiter
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells)
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: heater relay source
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: heater relay source
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Need a Rev Limiter
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: heater relay source
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Recovering "lost" capacity (was: Soneil 2404S's cooked my batteries :(
)
by "Mark Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells)
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Need a Rev Limiter
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ride Offer to AltCar Expo from SF Bay Area
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Zilla Z1K-HV on eBay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zilla Z1K-HV on eBay
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: heater relay source
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Fuel Cells
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Lith Ion batteries
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Fuel Cells
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: AGM's on end?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: "Fool" cells
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Fuel Cells
by "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) albuquerque
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) U.S. EPA shifts to policy without science. Oil and battery industries to
blame.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Lith Ion battery
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: AGM's on end?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: AGM's on end?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: Fuel Cells
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells) More Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Another expensive car blowoff
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Another expensive car blowoff
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: New Battery Technology
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Help with Suzuki Samurai
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) EVLN(nEVs perfect for Port Townsend)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Jude Anthony wrote:
> Anybody know where I can find a rev limiter that will work
> with my EV?
<http://www.canev.com>
Randy <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uses the ISSPRO rev limiter with Curtis
controllers. I'm not sure what he uses for the speed sensor, but I'm
very happy with the magnet collar I got from EV Parts for the tailshaft
of my ADC:
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=444&product_id=1
568>
EV Parts also has the matching sensor:
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=444&product_id=1
565>
The sensor comes with a pair of magnets that you can glue to your
flywheel, etc. should you wish to save the cost of the collar. A friend
of mine has thrown the magnets off his flywheel twice now, so if you go
this route be very careful how and where you mount them. Myself, I'll
stick with the collar ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep. It's called "Look over there!" technology. An excuse to make it
appear they are working on "breakthrough" technology so the can
conveniently ignore more practical technology.
Chip
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:28 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: December 7, 2006 5:54:01 PM EST
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells)
Bill Dube said:
Why on earth would you want a fuel cell car? It makes no
sense whatsoever.
Investing time and money in fuel cells quite effectively
diverts the money away from other, much more practical,
alternative fuels programs like EVs and biodiesel.
Bill Dube'
Bingo! They'd rather blow money on some pie in the sky idea that
they can put off actually delivering for 5-8 years, when the real
solution is right in front of their noses. Bizzare to say the
least.......
Darin
BadFishRacing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
www.kta-ev.com
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I looked to get the heater relay from one of the EV
> parts suppliers but
> none had them listed.
>
> I found two options for a relay. One was the TYCO
> Potter Brumfield from
> either Mouser or NewarkinOne
>
> The NewarkinOne was $13.04 for one and Mouser is
> $18.84
>
>
http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/newark/en_US/endecaSearch/searchPage2.jsp;jsessionid=2UWXXFU1MCWLOCXDUY2SFGQK2OTCIIV1?Ntt=KUEP-3D15-12&searchtype=mfg&Nty=1&N=0&Ntk=gensearch
>
>
http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.aspx?Ntt=KUEP-3D15-12
>
> The other manufacturer, Magnecraft, doesn't sell
> with the option for quick
> connects.
>
> Another way to do this is the way BobBatson does it,
> with a full size
> Albright contactor.
>
>
> I have a blown relay that the previous owner had put
> an AC rated relay in.
> I see the black char through the casing. ITS! COLD!
>
>
> Ben
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
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http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV Source sells the KUEP-3D15-12. Fast delivery. I got one, but I
don't have it hooked up yet.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The sensor comes with a pair of magnets that you can glue to your
flywheel, etc. should you wish to save the cost of the collar. A friend
of mine has thrown the magnets off his flywheel twice now, so if you go
this route be very careful how and where you mount them. Myself, I'll
stick with the collar ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
I'm using a hall effect sensor ( by Melaxis - it's made for automotive use,
and sold by Digi-key). It doesn't need moving magents - only moving steel.
I cut a small notch in the flywheel for it to sense. You could also drill a
small whole for it to sense. ( or, it will work off gear teeth, also, if you
still have the ring gear on the flywheel.).
Rotating magnets (especially glued in place) sounds like a problem waiting
to happen.
Phil
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: heater relay source
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 05:40:44 -0800 (PST)
www.kta-ev.com
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I looked to get the heater relay from one of the EV
> parts suppliers but
> none had them listed.
>
> I found two options for a relay. One was the TYCO
> Potter Brumfield from
> either Mouser or NewarkinOne
>
> The NewarkinOne was $13.04 for one and Mouser is
> $18.84
>
>
http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/newark/en_US/endecaSearch/searchPage2.jsp;jsessionid=2UWXXFU1MCWLOCXDUY2SFGQK2OTCIIV1?Ntt=KUEP-3D15-12&searchtype=mfg&Nty=1&N=0&Ntk=gensearch
>
>
http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.aspx?Ntt=KUEP-3D15-12
>
> The other manufacturer, Magnecraft, doesn't sell
> with the option for quick
> connects.
I'm using the Magnecraft version (Mouser part no. 528-38817-2 ). They're
functionally the same, a few bucks cheaper than the Tycos, and they're in
stock at Mouser. They come with quick connect terminals, or you can solder
to them, and you can also socket-mount it ( my choice)
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
WIN up to $10,000 in cash or prizes enter the Microsoft Office Live
Sweepstakes http://clk..atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0050001581mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill:
Wow! Getting a response from you about a e-scooter pack is like having Neil
Armstrong help with an RC airplane model!
That said, I don't see how my pack could be showing signs of sulphation. In
my understanding, sulphation is the result of _undercharging_, and this pack
has never been left below .75 SOC for more than four hours.
You say, "You should do an aggressive 15 volt charge like this on a regular
basis. Perhaps once per week if you drive the vehicle every day."
Really? On a sealed lead acid battery? I'd be happy to do this on a floodie,
since I could monitor electrolyte level, but a SLA is harder to maintain
that way.
Since I've bought two new PowerSonics to replace the two worst ones, I have
the two low capacity batts to experiment on. I guess I might as well try it.
I tried adding 2CC of water to each cell, but that didn't make any
difference.
I was looking for a way to either get Soneil's attention, or at least put
other potential Soneil buyers on their guard.
If anyone has a way to limit the float time, I'd be interested in hearing
that as well.
Mark
..............
Recovering "lost" capacity (was: Soneil 2404S's cooked my batteries :( )
I also wanted to add:
If the battery capacity is low (due to sulfation, and/or
undercharging) you must somehow "cram" those missing amp-hours back
into the battery. The amp-hours aren't going to reappear out of thin air.
Thus, you have to "over" charge the battery in a controlled
way to force the missing amp-hours back in.
Bill D.
At 11:14 AM 12/1/2006, you wrote:
Batteries are probably not "cooked" but sulfated.
You need to charge them more aggressively occasionally. Bring them
up to 15 volts and hold them there for two or three hours. If the
capacity increases on the next cycle, do it again. Keep doing it
until you get no increase in capacity.
You should do an aggressive 15 volt charge like this on a regular
basis. Perhaps once per week if you drive the vehicle every day.
I like to use a timer and a 2 amp, 15 volt Toshiba laptop
power supply for this type charge.
Bill D.
At 10:50 AM 12/1/2006, you wrote:
All:
This is a repost from
http://visforvoltage.org
I've been charging the batteries in Buttercup (4 @ 12V x 17AH) in
two strings of two. (in the background at
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/822)
Four months ago, I started with a set of four new PowerSonic 12018
batteries.
I had set it up so that each 24V charger would be plugged into one
half of the battery pack individually. My hope was that, if there
were any differences between the two chargers, by randomly plugging
them in, the differences would average out. Over time, the chargers
were left plugged into their respective sockets on the pack, and
just unplugged from the mains when I needed to use the scoot.
Four months later, pack voltage falls off after about 4AH of use.
After the voltage falls off, the voltages under load are as follows:
Charger A:
#1 11.8
#2 11.6
Charger B:
#3 8.6
#4 9.2
It sure looks like charger B has cooked the batteries. I can't
believe that two batteries failed at the same time.
I'm doing voltage cutoff measurements right now. I'll "report back"
if I learn anything else.
..... (time passes) ....
By my WattsUp meter, I did capacity tests and charge profile tests.
ALL batteries had lost capacity: Batts #1 & 2 were around 10AH
(14AH expected at given discharge rate), and #3 & 4 were around
4AH, and thus collapsing on the normal short commute.
In the charge profile, they charged at a constant 1.5A until 28.9V
(14.45/battery), then switched to constant voltage (mostly). When
voltage reached 28.97V (+-.03V) they fell back all the way ... to
28.03V (14.01V/battery) and held it at that voltage until I stopped
measuring at eight hours. About one full AH more was pumped through
the batteries.
Both bricks were within .02 volts of each other. The cutoff
voltages are different than noted in the 2404 literature
(SPEC2404S.022701). I checked the WattsUp against a Fluke voltmeter
and was within .03V in the range near 24V.
My Vector "quad charger" floats batteries at 13.1V/cell, with
periodic "float charge" periods of 13.7V (every few hours, for 10
minutes or so).
Right now, I'm not using the Soneil's at all. While the charge rate
was within the published max for PowerSonic batteries, the float
voltage was a few hundredths above maximum.
I have recieved no response from Soneil: their published e-mail
address is not valid, and they have not responded to the "feedback
form" I filled out at their website.
Remaining challenges: 1) Get a response from Soneil, and 2) see if
there is some way I can continue to use the bricks.
I'm just glad I didn't cook a pack of ten...
Disappointed,
Mark
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IMHO, another key factor is distribution. The oil companies can control fuel
supply and distribution for fuel cells like Hydrogen just as they do oil
today. It's a potential migration path from petroleum for them that gives
them what they could believe is a viable future when the oil runs out. Not
so with Electric.
Mike Harvey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 7:41 AM
Subject: "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells)
Yep. It's called "Look over there!" technology. An excuse to make it
appear they are working on "breakthrough" technology so the can
conveniently ignore more practical technology.
Chip
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:28 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: December 7, 2006 5:54:01 PM EST
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells)
Bill Dube said:
Why on earth would you want a fuel cell car? It makes no sense
whatsoever.
Investing time and money in fuel cells quite effectively
diverts the money away from other, much more practical, alternative
fuels programs like EVs and biodiesel.
Bill Dube'
Bingo! They'd rather blow money on some pie in the sky idea that they
can put off actually delivering for 5-8 years, when the real solution is
right in front of their noses. Bizzare to say the least.......
Darin
BadFishRacing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
KTA has the K&W Tach Sensor/Rev limiter which also provides an optical
sensor that works well for the ADC motors.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: Need a Rev Limiter
Jude Anthony wrote:
Anybody know where I can find a rev limiter that will work
with my EV?
<http://www.canev.com>
Randy <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uses the ISSPRO rev limiter with Curtis
controllers. I'm not sure what he uses for the speed sensor, but I'm
very happy with the magnet collar I got from EV Parts for the tailshaft
of my ADC:
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=444&product_id=1
568>
EV Parts also has the matching sensor:
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=444&product_id=1
565>
The sensor comes with a pair of magnets that you can glue to your
flywheel, etc. should you wish to save the cost of the collar. A friend
of mine has thrown the magnets off his flywheel twice now, so if you go
this route be very careful how and where you mount them. Myself, I'll
stick with the collar ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark. Who is this genius that did it in a day? I'm sure others on the
list would like to know. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "MARK DUTKO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My car is making progress now that I found someone to make the adaptor-
They did it in less than a day and thin enough to fit the Warp 9! No one
could do this except for him!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just listed a new Zilla Z1K-HV on eBay (item 280058527130).
I'm sure someone on the list will buy it imediately. Too bad you listed it
on Ebay. Lawrence Rhodes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Zilla Z1K-HV on eBay
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 07:59:57 -0800
I just listed a new Zilla Z1K-HV on eBay (item 280058527130).
I'm sure someone on the list will buy it imediately. Too bad you listed it
on Ebay. Lawrence Rhodes
I disagree.
If someone on the list wants it, they can bid for it on Ebay.
Using Ebay is a good way to make sure you get real market value for what you
sell. There may be someone who is not on this list who is willing to pay
more for it.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
View Athletes Collections with Live Search
http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use the P&B relays from mouser with snubber circuits. After a year and a
half all is fine. See
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_HighVoltageSystem.html
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CabinHeater.html
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CabinHeater_install.html
for more details.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: December 7, 2006 7:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: heater relay source
I looked to get the heater relay from one of the EV parts suppliers but none
had them listed.
I found two options for a relay. One was the TYCO Potter Brumfield from
either Mouser or NewarkinOne
The NewarkinOne was $13.04 for one and Mouser is $18.84
http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/newark/en_US/endecaSearch/searchPage
2.jsp;jsessionid=2UWXXFU1MCWLOCXDUY2SFGQK2OTCIIV1?Ntt=KUEP-3D15-12&searchtyp
e=mfg&Nty=1&N=0&Ntk=gensearch
http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.aspx?Ntt=KUEP-3D15-12
The other manufacturer, Magnecraft, doesn't sell with the option for quick
connects.
Another way to do this is the way BobBatson does it, with a full size
Albright contactor.
I have a blown relay that the previous owner had put an AC rated relay in.
I see the black char through the casing. ITS! COLD!
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> One aspect of fuell cells that hasn't been mentioned
> so far is that they are incredibly heavy. The plates
> which are the main physical component of fuel cell are
> made of lead. When these are stacked together you
> basically have a solid block of lead with a few clever
> bits of membrane tucked away inside. PbA batteries are
> nothing compared to these boys.
>
> Dave
Maybe.
Fuel cells being developed here in the Portland area by Clear Edge Power
don't use lead at all. They are pioneering the use of a silicon substrate
stack for use with a phosphoric acid based fuel cell. In that way, they can
use advances in silicon chip manufacturing to create channels as well as
embed control and the various fuel valves. It still requires oxygen and
hydrogen as fuel unless integrated with a reformer. While the technology
looks promising, they're focused on backup RE power applications vs mobile.
Who knows where this all will lead...
-MT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Just a little developmental news -
While doing job applications (anybody need some SolidWorks drawings/assemblies
done) I came across this from Climax Engineered Materials, a division of Phelps
Dodge -
Responsibilities - Develop new cobalt based products for applications in
Lithium- Ion rechargeable batteries including battery applications for hybrid
motor vehicles
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 11:21:00AM +0000, david woolard wrote:
> One aspect of fuell cells that hasn't been mentioned
> so far is that they are incredibly heavy.
<..snip..>
From:
www.fuelcells.org/info/charts/TransTechnical.pdf
I'm not sure how to draw a comparison here, but the
Ballard Mark 902 generates 85 kW and weighs 96Kg/212lbs.
So this is:
85000 / 96 = 885 W/kg
This does not include the weight of the hydrogen storage system,
so it's only half of a comparison to batteries.
I'll let you tell me if this proves or disproves your point :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Condie wrote:
> I'm curious if anyone has ever used AGMs
> standing on end in an EV before, and has any advice (or
> anecdotes) to share with me?
I'm using my Optimas on their sides, which is equivalent to standing on
end since they are spiral wound.
An engineer at an AGM manufacturer I worked with a while back remarked
to me that he used their flat plate AGMs on end (e.g. driving trolling
motors) as this was a trick that resulted in slightly more capacity from
them.
I wouldn't have any hesitation about using AGMs on end in an EV.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 01:05:51AM -0600, Danny Miller wrote:
> I don't discount the usefulness of the fuel cell principle at all. The
> source of energy is still in question, but many can also question the
> source of power for an EV since it's often from a fossil fuel plant.
Due to the fact that the BEV is 4x better then the FC in this context,
the source of energy question is more relevant.
> I see no grounds for a "batteries good, fuel cells bad" conclusion.
What about the following:
H2 fueled PEMs have very poor "well to wheels" efficiency
The GHG benefits of FC vs BEV do not favor FCs
Infrastructure issues regarding H2 fuels
Durability of FCs vs advanced batteries
The questionable policy decisions that have been made thinking
that H2 fueled PEMs were the only future.
These issues are manly why I tend toward the batteries good, fuel cells bad
conclusion.
> Nobody here is a fuel cell engineer who can help bring us new
> technology.
That we know of right?
I guess I've never seen a post claiming to come from a fuel cell engineer.
> So it's kind of pointless to discuss.
It has many policy implications, although it's not clear if anybody on
this list has the ear of somebody who can effect any change in that field.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been looking at the jsut released Sherry Boschert "Plug-In Hybrids:
THe Cars that wil lrecharge America" and a couple of interesting things to
take away from it on fuel cells (aside from the reference to Former CLinton
Eneergy Secretary Joseph Romm's "The Hype about Hydrogen" book):
- hydrogen is not an alternative energy source, it is an energy storage
medium (storing energy from buring natural gas or petroleum, coal I suppose
too)
- ROmm's 5 points about the preconditions for hydrogen to become a viable
transportation fuel:
1) cars need to cost a bit less than the $1mill per vehicle present price
tag
2) Hydrogen is very light, so you can't store a lot of it on board a car
3) cost of making hydrogen needs to be reduced by factor of at least 2x to
3x
4) tens of thousands of fueling stations would need to be constructed before
anyone knew if the cars would succeed in the marketplace
5) competing car technologies must be worse than hydrogen. i.e., in 20
years when hydrogen might be feasible for transportation, what kind of
biodiesel/ethanol plug-in hybrid will be available, and will probably be a
lot better that hydrogen, overall.
and the famous quote from Woolsey, former CIA director and present seat
on National Commission on Eneergy Policy (and a chief signatory of the Set
America Free document plugging plug-in hybrids, altrnative fuel sources,
etc. :
(remember these 6 words:) "Forget Hydrogen. Forget Hydrogen. Forget
Hydrogen."
It sound from this very informative book that fuel cell cars got a lot of
(FOrd? GM? I forget which) funding to get people off their backs, but is not
really any sort of strategy to reduce
oil dependence in the foreseeable future.
I've also pheard people speculate that fuel cells/hydrogen will have
some use, but not in transportation probbly, realisitcally speaking (though
I do guess that in say a crash, hydrogen jsut floats away rather than
hanging around to cause an explosion, etc.)
my 2 cents worth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
new to the list, is the electric vechiles group in albuquerque still active?
check out my blog:
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where We're Going, We Don't Need Science
U.S. EPA shifts to policy without science. Oil and battery industries to
blame.
The U.S. EPA continues to suck Big Oil's dipstick: Yesterday, the agency
announced that its air-pollutant reviews, formerly conducted solely by staff
scientists, will now incorporate recommendations from its political
appointees. Deputy Administrator Marcus Peacock insisted the shift will
bring "air rule-making into the 21st century," but former EPA staffers and
greens lashed out at the move, widely seen as a result of pressure from the
oil and battery industries. "EPA is downgrading the role of its own career
experts and making sure that political appointees are running the show from
the beginning," said Frank O'Donnell of Clean Air Watch. Rogene Henderson,
chair of an EPA advisory panel that has provided internal auditing of
scientists' reviews, confirmed that the panel will now only be asked to
comment on proposed actions after they've been made public. On the upside,
even when scientists weighed in with administrators ahead of time, she said,
"they weren't taking our advice." Sigh.
After reading this should we be more careful where we get & what chemistry
we use for our batteries????? Lawrence Rhodes........
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Just a little developmental news -
While doing job applications (anybody need some SolidWorks drawings/assemblies
done) I came across this from Climax Engineered Materials, a division of Phelps
Dodge -
Responsibilities - Develop new cobalt based products for applications in
Lithium- Ion rechargeable batteries including battery applications for hybrid
motor vehicles
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
I had no problems using Optima Red Top AGM's on end. Did so for over 10
years with 100's of them.
Jeff Major
Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
After measuring my Tropica, and mulling over how to put my 12 UB121100's
(removed from my Courier before sale) into the car, it occured to me that the
only way that they would all fit in the battery tunnel which runs down the
center of the vehicle is if I placed them on end. This is a battery orientation
I've never seen before, and even though the usual notice say that AGM's can be
used in any orientation (sometimes with the caveat that inverted is "not
recommended") I'm curious if anyone has ever used AGMs standing on end in an EV
before, and has any advice (or anecdotes) to share with me?
---------------------------------
Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get
things done faster.
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Steve
I have taken an extensive look at this trying to fit batteries in an
existing battery tray. Two things I found that came up several times by
different
battery manufacturers. One is you all most all advised you should not put
upside down. The other was many said you could use them in any position but
you
loose 10%.
I cannot say if this would be the same for all batteries.
I considered that 10% would not be very noticeable. However after a year of
searching found a battery that would work so I did not do it.
Don
In a message dated 12/8/2006 12:50:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Steve,
I had no problems using Optima Red Top AGM's on end. Did so for over 10
years with 100's of them.
Jeff Major
Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
After measuring my Tropica, and mulling over how to put my 12 UB121100's
(removed from my Courier before sale) into the car, it occured to me that the
only way that they would all fit in the battery tunnel which runs down the
center of the vehicle is if I placed them on end. This is a battery
orientation
I've never seen before, and even though the usual notice say that AGM's can be
used in any orientation (sometimes with the caveat that inverted is "not
recommended") I'm curious if anyone has ever used AGMs standing on end in an
EV
before, and has any advice (or anecdotes) to share with me?
---------------------------------
Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and
get things done faster.
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells
> etc. :
> (remember these 6 words:) "Forget Hydrogen. Forget Hydrogen. Forget
> Hydrogen."
>
What's really cool is I have seen him say this.
And if you get him going on the subject,Wow! I thought I, and WE this
Evlist, were negative on H2..
You get get Jim going on that subject, and you understand that we are not
the only ones that see Giga bucks going down the toilie.
Mr. Woolsey is a very plugged in guy, and he has a message to send and it's
basicly right down our alley.
It was a breathe of fresh air so see a Guy "Inside" that has seen the
crazynees that the current "Status Quo" energy policy is based on.
Jim would be welcomed and fit into a Rocking NEDRA EV group over Piazza and
Beer, Man the hand waving and shouting would be world class.
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells)
> IMHO, another key factor is distribution. The oil companies can control
fuel
> supply and distribution for fuel cells like Hydrogen just as they do oil
> today. It's a potential migration path from petroleum for them that gives
> them what they could believe is a viable future when the oil runs out. Not
> so with Electric.
>
> Mike Harvey
>
> Hi Mike an' EVerybody
Well, we are faced with almost the above with electricity! Here in
Corrupticut, the dunderheads in charge dropped the regulation of Electric
rates. Taking their cure from wildly successful Emron(Not) they just never
saw it go down in flames, just went along with deregulation. It isn't the
Oil Co's here, just greed! For YEARS we enjoyed 10 sense a KWH electricity.
The Electric Co's owned the power plants and distribution systems, were
allowed by the PUC to make fair returns on their investment. They did, and
EVerybody lived happily in the land of "Steady Habits". That tag has often
been used to refer to CT. Or the tourist folks put on the bill boards, that
say " CT, Full of Surprises"Yeah! They aint kiddin'!When ya get your
electric [EMAIL PROTECTED] a KWH. THIS year, they are going for another 8
percent
, and are promising more.Who will be the last industry to leave CT please
blow out the candle? Interestingly enough the small Ma and Pa Muni Power
plants, city and town owned are holding the line. yeah, they can as they are
the only hand on your wallet between the generator and your outlet! It will
be getting to the point where you will have to make your own power. Not a
bad idea, or start a power co-op with yur neighbors, buy a few of those war
surplus Diseasel Gennies in Harbor Freight, and go in the power biz. IF
Diseasel fuel doesn't go through the roof, or an electric tanker truck to
make the rounds to the fast food places for some bio Diseasel.Sounds like
too much work, though! Spoiled rotten by affordable electric, EVery outlet
ready, juicy and able. Or mortgage the house and put up solar cells?OR just
MOVE to where Electric is still afordable? I think Hawaii has higher rates
than we do. Not much solar and hydro there? And NO coal plants?Or Fool
Sells?
My 16 Cents a KWH worth
Bob..... more below!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 7:41 AM
> Subject: "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells)
>
>
> > Yep. It's called "Look over there!" technology. An excuse to make it
> > appear they are working on "breakthrough" technology so the can
> > conveniently ignore more practical technology.
> >
> > Chip
> >
> >Yeah! With YOUR TX bux! Do ya thing General Murders DIDN'T write off the
EV-1 as a BIG ass tax loss. Their accountents are as sharp as their lease
lawyers! And used, I'm ,SURE YOUR Tax bux to "Prove" nobody wanted an EV?
> > On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:28 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> >
> >> From: "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Date: December 7, 2006 5:54:01 PM EST
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Subject: Re: "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells)
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill Dube said:
> >>> Why on earth would you want a fuel cell car? It makes no
sense
> >>> whatsoever.
> >>>
> >>> Investing time and money in fuel cells quite effectively
> >>> diverts the money away from other, much more practical, alternative
> >>> fuels programs like EVs and biodiesel.
> >>>
> >>> Bill Dube'
> >>>
> >>
> >> Bingo! They'd rather blow money on some pie in the sky idea that they
> >> can put off actually delivering for 5-8 years, when the real solution
is
> >> right in front of their noses. Bizzare to say the least.....
.
> >> And we will all are running around, like to the store, with oxy.
bottles strapped to our backs. I saw that today, a probably "reformed"
smoker weezing along in the Stuper Market. Sign of things to come?Old,
REALLY old guy, one foot in the grave already. HE won't live to see the
above, but my grandkid will.
And the big hue and cry" How did this happen" From SUV drivers and other
typical US folks that have short memories."Why didn't somebody DO
something?"
Bob, again. Still breathin' and enjoying it!
And
> >> Darin
> >> BadFishRacing
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is a Smart Diablo?
http://www.funmansion.com/html/Smart-Diablo-vs-Ferrari.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's not electric!
Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: What is a Smart Diablo?
http://www.funmansion.com/html/Smart-Diablo-vs-Ferrari.html
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--- Begin Message ---
The people at TRL responded with some technical information. I am afraid
nothing to get excited about yet.
1) They are not a manufacturer. They are looking for one
2) This is a redox battery, the term "Common Ion" instead of full flow
vandium redux. seems to indicate how they are achieveing a sealed cell
for hybrids.
3) voltage drops lineraly with charge. Ack that meas at 50% SOC the
1.2 cell voltage is .6. If I remember correctly they sag horribly also.
Think Fuel cell.
3b That means the power drops in half too, and you need a special
controller or you waste over 1/2 the capacity. Think Capacitor storage.
4) costs are projected, if and only if they become mass produced in
large quantities, then they can possible make that price point.
Stationary, large capacity, full flow systems are where this technology
shines. Trying to put this in a car is similar to trying to put a fuel
cell in a car.
ho humm, back to li-ion
PS does anyone know if SG-photo is still around, they are not answering
emails. Or if there is another source for the bb600's
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My son wants to convert his Samurai 4WD 5 speed to EV.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
John 1981 Jet Electrica in Sylmar
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(nEVs perfect for Port Townsend)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/sited/story/html/265471
Fully electric car makes no noise as it passes by
2006-12-08 by EVAN CAEL
PORT TOWNSEND -- You'll hear no engine revving when JoAnna Loehr
cruises by. Still, with its toy-like appearance and the word
``electric'' stretched across both doors, Loehr's new car gets
stares as she drives Port Townsend streets.
It is one of five ZENN (Zero Emission No Noise) cars that have
been sold to Washington residents. She bought it on Saturday
for $12,500.
Loehr, 64, said that she realized, while watching a documentary
film called, ``Who Killed the Electric Car'' in Port Townsend's
Rose Theatre, that her conscience would be tarnished if she
continued to drive only a fuel-powered vehicle.
The film chronicles the California demise of the EV1 model
electric car developed by General Motors. ``I had been feeling
guilty about driving around town,'' said Loehr. ``But now I
can go anywhere. It's like an adventure every time I go out.''
Loehr is part of the transportation arm of the Port Townsend
Earth Day Everyday celebration and is an advocate of
electric-powered transportation usage.
She purchased the car from a Toronto company called Feel Good
Cars, and is delighted to be rid of her reliance on a
gas-guzzling car, when driving in town, anyway.
The ZENN car has a maximum speed of 25 mph and can travel 35
miles on a single charge. It's powered by six 12 volt, heavy
duty batteries.
An aluminum frame and plastic shell can hold two passengers and
it has 13 cubic feet of storage.
Instead of a spot to insert the fuel nozzle, Loehr's car has a
plastic flap that, when lifted, reveals three prongs to plug in
an extension cord. A full charge requires eight hours.
Loehr said she understands the limitations of the car, such as
the speed and short distance it can travel between charges, but
that she will use it like a bicycle and run errands around town
with it.
``It's perfect for Port Townsend, and it's the perfect second
car,'' she said.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
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--- End Message ---
