EV Digest 6210
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Adjustable battery racks
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: I need to find someone to ship my EV from Provo, UT to Atlanta, GA
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Adjustable battery racks
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Load testing methods
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: cold weather and hall effect pedal
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Component arrangement
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Belktronix?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: China e-scoot passes wow test
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) 88 Jetta power steering stuff??
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Belktronix?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Battery test
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Battery test
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: AGM's on end?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Belktronix?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Clutchless CVT with Reverse using 2 motors and differential
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery test
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Tim,
I found if I make the battery enclosure to fit a 6 volt deep cycle battery,
it will also fit 8 volts with a little higher voltage or 12 volts with a
higher voltage or same voltage with some room to spare. I use a 1/4 inch
fiber glass box, I constructed out of 1/4 inch by 4 foot by 8 foot sheets,
made up my a custom fiberglass company.
I can use 30 each 6 volts at 180 volt or 30 each 8 volts at 240 volt or 25
each 12 volts at 300 volts.
They have all the material which they will show you how to assemble these
units.
I then coated the fiberglass with the sink, tub and shower epoxy coating
which is acid proof. My enclosure surfaces are still gloss white with no
conductive voltage paths.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 7:46 PM
Subject: Adjustable battery racks
> I was planning on using optimas in my conversion for performance but for
> economy and range i would like to use wet cells. These batteries are not
> the
> exact same size and i was wondering if anyone knew how or where i could
> buy
> or make an adjustable battery rack that will still be strong.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Enter the "Telus Mobility Xbox a Day" contest for your chance to WIN!
> Telus
> Mobility is giving away an Microsoft Xbox® 360 every day from November 20
> to
> December 31, 2006! Just download Windows Live (MSN) Messenger to your
> IM-capable TELUS mobile phone, and you could be a winner!
> http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Steve
I also have had some bad experiences shipping electric vehicles. In the last
two years I have shipped from all over the US over 15 electric trucks. For
price and service I have had the best luck with AAAllstate transport. Call Rik
at 866-769-2452 his email is [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
I do not have any financial motive for the above referral. Just passing on
what has been a good experience for me. Rik will give you the shipping prices
on other vehicles and the time they have been on the board waiting to pick up.
This is on other vehicles that are near your pick up location to your
general final destination. It gives you a heads up for how much you can expect
to
pay and how long it will be before it moves. I have never been told by any
other brokers this information. It gives you a good understanding of the
process
and when not to over pay.
All these shipping brokers who want your money up front are just quoting
prices. When trucks come though they pick up the ones with the most money
going
their way. If the vehicle you want shipped is not off the beaten path they
move a lot faster for less money. If it is out of the way you can expect to
pay
more but doing so will not mean you faster service. It all depends on the
location and direction your vehicle needs to go.
Don
In a message dated 12/12/2006 6:24:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Any suggestions?
Anyone know who e-volks uses and if the are any good? That are also in the
Provo area. I've had nothing but bad experiences with everyone that I have
done business with in the past.
Thanks,
Steve
---------------------------------
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Make a rack that fits the larger batteries and use spacers with the small
batteries.
> I was planning on using optimas in my conversion for performance but for
> economy and range i would like to use wet cells. These batteries are not
> the
> exact same size and i was wondering if anyone knew how or where i could
> buy
> or make an adjustable battery rack that will still be strong.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Enter the "Telus Mobility Xbox a Day" contest for your chance to WIN!
> Telus
> Mobility is giving away an Microsoft Xbox® 360 every day from November 20
> to
> December 31, 2006! Just download Windows Live (MSN) Messenger to your
> IM-capable TELUS mobile phone, and you could be a winner!
> http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This has been suggested before, but one of the easy ways to find
stinkers in a pack is to have a (digital) voltmeter and along piece
of wire (extension cord or something like that) which will give
you approx 50 to 100A of load, any bad batteries will usually
show up within seconds if you test after you have driven, as a
freshly charged 'stinker' can hold a load for a while, before
suddenly dropping its voltage.
If you want to test capacity without ruining your batteries
(yes, I have forgotten to disconnect the load in time in the past),
a simple setup is:
- a mechanical alarmclock
- a 1000W inverter (can be a cheap square wave version)
- a dozen light sockets and bulbs
Run the inverter from the 12V battery, it should have a
low voltage disconnect that protects the battery from too
deep discharge.
Plug the clock and the lights into the inverter until it
draws the wanted current, for example 60A (measure with shunt).
Now every minute on the clock will count 1 Ah from the battery,
the clock will stop when the battery is (almost) empty.
You probably need around 10 60W bulbs for this test, though it is
good to have some 40W and 75W bulbs to adjust the current.
A single torchiere can be used for half the load at 300W.
(I don't have one as I only have CFL lights in the house, but
you often can get them for free on your local recycle list.)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 4:31 AM
To: ev
Subject: RE: Load testing methods
You will go nowhere with it's 150w max limit !
3A under 48V...
---------- Initial Header -----------
>From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To : <[email protected]>
Cc :
Date : Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:46:03 -0800
Subject : RE: Load testing methods
An interesting option for load testing is the CBA (computerized battery
analyzer) offered at www.westmountainradio.com . Operating at up to 48v,
it'll discharge a battery or bank to prescribed voltage discharge limits at
constant load and store the data to your USB-attached computer...might be a
spendy option...
Here's the CBA link: http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA.htm
-MT
> - How to make a battery tester, this is from Joe Smalley
>
> 1) Take a coat hanger with .093 wire, it will draw about 150 amps
> from a 12 volt battery, 100 amps from an 8 volt battery or 75
> amps from a 6 volt battery.
>
> 2) Parallel two or more to get more current.
>
> 3) Connect the coat hanger to some 6 gage or larger jumper cables
> and submerge the wire in water. Don't use a plastic bucket. The
> hot wire can make it leak.
>
> 4) Connect your voltmeter to the battery terminals of the battery
> under test.
>
> 5) Connect the jumper cables to the battery terminals.
>
> 6) Wait for a fixed amount of time (your choice on how far you
> want to discharge the batteries) and read the final voltage.
>
> Disconnect the jumper cables from the battery and record the
> voltage. The bad ones show up pretty quickly using this test.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
--------------------- ALICE SECURITE ENFANTS ---------------------
Protégez vos enfants des dangers d'Internet en installant Sécurité Enfants,
le contrôle parental d'Alice.
http://www.aliceadsl.fr/securitepc/default_copa.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is the hall effect sensor attached to the pedal with a cable?
You may have a different expansion in the cable than in the
attachment/sheating of the cable, causing the sensor to be
applied a little in the cold, thinking that the pedal is
already depressed.
Usually there is some slack at either end of the pedal, to
accommodate these effects, so you should be able to re-adjust
without losing control range in the pedal travel.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 1:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: cold weather and hall effect pedal
So my raptor 600 uses the hall effect pedal.
In normal weather 40 degrees and up, I turn my car on and the pedal doesn't
register as on.
However, with freezing weather, I turn the car on, and the pedal is
slightly applied according to the controller. (not significant, but enough
to draw 4-8 amps to slightly rotate the motor. when I put the truck in
gear, there is a slight lurch because the motor was turning.
when I arrive home 20 miles later, and if it is warm enough the pedal is no
longer "slightly applied"
on more frigid days, it still thinks it is applied.
Any thoughts on this issue? I hate to loose the upper end of the pedal by
readjusting, but other thoughts?
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John wrote:
Is it ok to have that monster Ferraz Shawmut fuze Otmar recommends
physically close to other components like the contactor and controller.
If you don't exceed their voltage and interrupting current ratings,
fuses won't normally explode or eject anything. They will get warm in
normal operation (they are a resistor, after all), but that's about it.
If you *do* exceed their ratings, they can experience what might be
called a "rapid self-disassembly" -- better known as KABOOM!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
why? what reason is there other than equalization?
Jack
Electro Automotive wrote:
At 10:44 AM 12/12/2006, you wrote:
You mean to say you don't have a way to equalize your batteries?
Hmm, someone who doesn't is taking THE BIGGEST SHORTCUT themselves.
Jack
Phil Marino wrote:
Andrew,
Looking through the website, I noticed that the controller needs a 24
tap from the traction pack. That means that two of the 12V batteries
( or 4 batteries, if they're 6 volters) will have more load on them
than the rest. Even if it's a light load, to me, that's just not the
best way to do it. And it means you have to have another high
voltage line coming from the traction pack.
You won't find a need for a mid-pack tap on a Zilla, or even a Curtis.
This may or may not be a real indicator of how well everything is
designed, but it makes me wonder if other shortcuts were taken.
Phil
I agree with Phil. REGARDLESS of battery equalization, don't tap part of
your pack for another use.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, December 12, 2006 6:11 pm, Lock Hughes said:
> ...
> http://www.newstargroup.com/showproduct.asp?ProductID=447
> or tinyURL here:
> http://tinyurl.com/yx4f4x
>
> Suspect specs aside, this scoot is made (designed?) a thousand miles
> west of Yongkang, but it looks like it's from a different planet?
>
> I don't know "motorcycles" at all, so I was just curious whether this
> little EV really is a unique design (outside) or again just some copy
> of a design (gas?) from somewhere else?
I haven't seen anything quite like this before, but it does seem to borrow
a few body design elements from one of my favorite motorcycle designs,
Suzuki's "Falco Rustyco" concept:
http://www.suzukicycles.org/Concept-Suzuki/Falcorustyco.shtml
I'll agree that (at 17mph) this scooter seems like little more than a toy.
--chris
>
> No idea about pricing or availability, or handling or anything else.
> Don't know if it's EVen a good design!
>
> tks
>
> Lock
> Toronto
> Human/Electric Hybrid Pedestrian
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;;
Anybody fool around with power steering stuff? I'm trying to get my 88
Jetta's to work. running the PS pump off the motor. Running the motor in
neutral, on 12 volts it SHOULD be running up enough to make the damn P.S.
work? Right? I think I have it running the correct direction, I tried both,
thinking I have it bracketed bass ackwards, no difference.Bought a new
resovoir that doesn't leak, the issue the other night.I don't think you
would hafta bleed it or something?It has the two hoses, intake and output. I
don't think it is Rocket Science, must be SOMETHING I'm doing wrong?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will also concur with Shari on this subject as well. I am somewhat sure
that most people who have been in the industry for some time will concur as
well.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: Belktronix?
At 10:44 AM 12/12/2006, you wrote:
You mean to say you don't have a way to equalize your batteries?
Hmm, someone who doesn't is taking THE BIGGEST SHORTCUT themselves.
Jack
Phil Marino wrote:
Andrew,
Looking through the website, I noticed that the controller needs a 24 tap
from the traction pack. That means that two of the 12V batteries ( or 4
batteries, if they're 6 volters) will have more load on them than the
rest. Even if it's a light load, to me, that's just not the best way to
do it. And it means you have to have another high voltage line coming
from the traction pack.
You won't find a need for a mid-pack tap on a Zilla, or even a Curtis.
This may or may not be a real indicator of how well everything is
designed, but it makes me wonder if other shortcuts were taken.
Phil
I agree with Phil. REGARDLESS of battery equalization, don't tap part of
your pack for another use.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
No need to try "the same age" - the regulators should take care of that.
Only if you run batteries without any regulations is it wise to match
batteries closely, but experience is that after about 5,000 miles they have
drifted apart enough to reverse some, so I recommend regulators on sealed
batteries and in particular AGMs.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 9:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Battery test
How did I overcharge them? They have had regulators on them all the time.
I ask because I need to avoid it in the future.
A question about replacement. People on this list have said "replace
with batteries of same age" ; I was wondering how do I do that?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
Do the bad batteries continue to drop or will they go to 9 - 10V
and stay there?
That would be a sign of a bad cell - often caused by reversing it
during a just-too-long trip or a drive after an incomplete charge.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Brandt
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 5:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery test
I think you've already got your answer (at least they are easier to get to).
Either replace those three or try remedial measures on them like individual
charging for those three for a few cycles, though it sounds like they got
consistently overcharged, and if that is the case, they need to be replaced.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2006 7:12:13 PM
Subject: Battery test
In suspision of a bad battery I performed the following test after 5
monthes of daily use @ about 14 miles a day.
In actuality about 3000 miles.
Average temperature 40's, 24 Excide Orbitals. not insulated, sept 2005
and apr 2005 Datecodes.
baseline:
Charged and let rest over 12 hours
Measured Open Circuit Voltage then voltage after 15 seconds at at 150Amps
test:
went for a drive removing 3Kwh
rest for 1 hour
Measured Open Circuit Voltage then voltage after 15 seconds at at 150Amps
Full Charge 3Kwh Down
battery location OCV @150 Amps trend OCV @150Amps trend
1 underhood 12.88 11.8 steady 12.48 11.6 steady
2 underhood 12.88 11.8 steady 12.46 11.4 steady
3 underhood 12.90 11.8 steady 12.52 11.6 steady
4 underhood 12.77 11.7 steady 12.37 11.4 steady
5 underhood 12.93 11.8 steady 12.55 11.6 steady
6 underhood 12.83 11.8 steady 12.44 11.5 steady
7 underhood 12.92 11.9 steady 12.53 11.6 steady
8 behindseat 12.88 11.9 steady 12.50 10.8
dropping fast
9 behindseat 12.84 11.9 steady 12.50 10.8
dropping fast
10 behindseat 12.64 11.6 steady 12.27 11.4 steady
11 behindseat 12.68 11.6 steady 12.30 10.6
dropping fast
12 behindseat 12.88 11.9 steady 12.53 11.6 steady
13 behindseat 12.89 11.9 steady 12.54 11.7 steady
14 behindseat 12.86 11.85 steady 12.53 11.8 steady
15 behindseat 12.75 11.9 steady 12.43 11.75 steady
16 behindseat 12.91 11.9 steady 12.57 11.8 steady
17 behindseat 12.865 11.8 steady 12.52 11.8 steady
18 behindseat 12.89 11.8 steady 12.52 11.8 steady
19 behindseat 12.83 11.8 steady 12.44 11.6 steady
20 behindseat 12.87 11.7 steady 12.46 11.75 steady
21 underhood 12.93 11.8 steady 12.57 11.8 steady
22 underhood 12.91 11.8 steady 12.55 11.8 steady
23 underhood 12.87 11.8 steady 12.52 11.8 steady
24 underhood 12.89 11.9 steady 12.52 11.6 steady
Conclusions #'s 8,9,11 are low capacity.
Should I take another reading at say 4kwh down? What happened to the
7kwh capacity? :(34ah 1hr rate * 288V =9792 * .8 = 7.8kwh)
My tester is only good for 15 seconds at a shot.
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve,
My AGMS are laying on their side (long side).
There was a thread a month or so ago, discussing that stacking
AGMS on their short side will be the BEST orientation they can
get, because the plates are then horizontal, so heavier
electrolyte cannot migrate through the glass matt to the bottom.
Someone reported that this orientation causes a slightly higher
capacity over time than in any other orientation and on par with
the situation where you would regularly rotate the batteries
to lie on their other side.
Way to go!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 1:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AGM's on end?
5 years with on end configuration in an EMB Lectra motorcycle. Delphi 8v
VLRA OEM batteries for the Ford Ranger EV. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: AGM's on end?
> Steve,
>
> I had no problems using Optima Red Top AGM's on end. Did so for over 10
years with 100's of them.
>
> Jeff Major
>
> Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After measuring my Tropica, and mulling over how to put my 12 UB121100's
(removed from my Courier before sale) into the car, it occured to me that
the only way that they would all fit in the battery tunnel which runs down
the center of the vehicle is if I placed them on end. This is a battery
orientation I've never seen before, and even though the usual notice say
that AGM's can be used in any orientation (sometimes with the caveat that
inverted is "not recommended") I'm curious if anyone has ever used AGMs
standing on end in an EV before, and has any advice (or anecdotes) to share
with me?
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and
get things done faster.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack, The first answer is that most people do not do an equalize charge
daily. There are some chargers on the market that do not even have this
ability. Once batteries start to get out of balance they get progressively
out of balance and some get overcharged while others are not brought all the
way up to a full charge. On liquid lead acid batteries this is not as
critical but it can still do damage by overstressing the batteries you are
boiling away while the others are trying to catch up.
An exception to the rule. I received a call yesterday from a guy wanting a
36 volt DC to DC converter. I asked him what voltage he was running .He said
72. I told him that this is not a good thing to run off half the pack. His
reply was that they use two 36 volt chargers and charge the packs
separately. In this particular case it is fine to run the DC to DC off half
the pack.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: Belktronix?
why? what reason is there other than equalization?
Jack
Electro Automotive wrote:
At 10:44 AM 12/12/2006, you wrote:
You mean to say you don't have a way to equalize your batteries?
Hmm, someone who doesn't is taking THE BIGGEST SHORTCUT themselves.
Jack
Phil Marino wrote:
Andrew,
Looking through the website, I noticed that the controller needs a 24
tap from the traction pack. That means that two of the 12V batteries
( or 4 batteries, if they're 6 volters) will have more load on them
than the rest. Even if it's a light load, to me, that's just not the
best way to do it. And it means you have to have another high voltage
line coming from the traction pack.
You won't find a need for a mid-pack tap on a Zilla, or even a Curtis.
This may or may not be a real indicator of how well everything is
designed, but it makes me wonder if other shortcuts were taken.
Phil
I agree with Phil. REGARDLESS of battery equalization, don't tap part of
your pack for another use.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date:
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Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date: 12/11/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, my bad - I thought the second motor was directly coupled to
the engine, but it is coupled to the wheels (well, diff anyway),
so thanks for the correction. John1701a.com has nice animations.
My goal with this proposal is to increase startup torque by
using the gearing of the two motors to create more starting torque
and get a wider range of RPMs than the already wide range that
electric motors already have by using the addition function
of the planetary gears.
Of course - having two motors also helps, the total power and
torque can be split between the two.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jeff Major
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Clutchless CVT with Reverse using 2 motors and differential
Hello Cor,
Yes, using two electric motors with an epicyclic or planetary gear is very
interesting and basically what you allude to with the differential example.
However I believe you are incorrect when it comes to the behavior of the
Prius system outlined in your last paragraph. Neither electric motor is
coupled directly to engine speed. If the vehicle is moving with engine
speed at zero, both electric machines are rotating.
Here are the equations governing machine speeds in the Prius:
MG1 = generator RPM,
MG2 = motor RPM,
ICE = engine RPM,
MPH = vehicle speed,
MG1 = 3.6 * ICE - 2.6 * MG2,
And
MG2 = 59.1 * MPH.
So if ICE = 0,
MG1 = (-2.6) * MG2 = (-2.6) * 59.1 * MPH.
So, if your traveling at 10 MPH, electric only (ICE = 0), then MG2 = 591
RPM and MG1 = 1537 RPM in opposite rotation direction.
Also, a company named Solomon Technologies markets such a system,
apparently used mostly in watercraft. They are currently in an infringement
case against Toyota.
Jeff Major
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The remark to look at the Toyota (Prius) setup for CVT
formed an idea in my head, an answer to several of the
issues that I have been thinking about of solving for
the design of an EV, as several of these have come up
and were discussed here, but this gives a new solution:
Add a differential as CVT, driven by 2 electric motors at
the half-shaft outputs, while the driveshaft input is now
the output.
This resembles the Prius continuous variable gears without
clutch and it allows you to multiply torque while varying
the gear ratio from zero to twice the differential gearing.
(The diff gearing will need to be changed as standard
gearing will cause the motors to rotate near the speed of
the wheel rpm, way too low for efficiency, OR you can keep
the gearbox and feed the diff output shaft into the box
which can be fixed into low gear.
Just like the Prius, it may be beneficial to dedicate one
motor to act mainly as generator, although you would also
want to drive this motor and have extra power toi the
wheels (and use the higher gearing from the addition of
the two motors RPM) for high speed travel.
For ease of terms, I will now name the motors M1 and M2,
with M2 mainly operating as generator (spinning with
negative rpm).
To start from zero, M1 starts spinning near its most
efficient point, causing M2 to spin just as fast in the
opposite direction. To start moving, you need to increase
the current delivered by M2 (also increasing the load on
M1 and therefor its current) to create the torque that
starts the wheels moving slowly (the difference in speed
between M1 and M2)
The operation of the differential connecting M1 and M2
will allow approx half maximum speed with M2 acting as a
generator, for higher speeds M2 needs to change direction
and help propel the vehicle with the *addition* of the
speeds of the two motors, instead of the difference.
I can imagine this setup with 2 shunt wound motors
(for easy DC control) where M1 has a fixed field (no
field weakening necessary) and you control the motor
current with a regular powerful DC controller as used
for series motors, while M2 can have a contactor to
connect the armature to the pack and can either use a
small controller for the field to create the proper
speed and load that gives the torque to drive the car
at lower speed and to control the speed when used as
motor in reverse for high speed operation, or M2 can
be simply hooked to the pack as shunt motor through
a set of contactors and the control comes from M1.
A low-power reversing contactor is needed to switch
the shunt winding of M2 from generator to motor.
The most tricky part is how to do this switch-over,
you would need a kind of Hairball controller to do
this, or have a button or switch for the driver to
switch between the two directions of M2, as in
having an electronic gear switch.
The reason that M2 does not need control even when
acting as a motor is that it takes over from M1 when
M1 is redlining at the highest low speed gear, so M1 can
go back to low RPM while they both push the vehicle.
Note that in the Prius the gearing between the motors
is not equal to match their characteristics curves to
the different states and speeds of driving.
An example will clarify:
0 to 40 mph: M1 goes from 1000 to 5000 rpm while
M2 stays at a constant -1000 rpm
40 to 80 mph: M2 switched to motor at 3000 rpm while
M1 again covers the 1000 to 5000 rpm.
You can see that it actually makes sense to use
different gearing for the two motors as one is
redlining at 5000 while the other never goes above
3000 rpm in the example.
You can vary the speed of M2 if you want, when both
M1 and M2 are redlining at 5000 rpm you get a whopping
10,000 rmp (multiplied by the diff gearing, so its
output may be over 30,000 rpm!) as the addition of
the two speeds into the diff. You probably want to
get a diff that has about 1 as gear ratio to avoid
these extreme speeds.
Note also that at standstill with throttle, both
motors are spinning and so you won't burn up your
motor when holding the car on a ramp by throttle.
Battery currents are low in low gears, due to M2
generating electricity, which feeds M1's controller.
That means that battery currents are low, while
current (and thus wheel torque) can be high by this
looping around of energy in the form of current
from M1's controller into M1, as mechanic energy
from one side of the diff to the other, into M2
and as electric energy from M2 back to M1's controller
so the battery current is only the difference caused
by the losses in the system and the energy that goes
to the wheels
Regeneration is also easy to achieve, but requires
that the small controller for the M2 field is used
to regulate how much deceleration is created and
M1 to be controlled in a way to reduce spinning
(create negative torque) otherwise all that
happens is that M1 will spin freely and can overrev.
If a contactor can short M1 or the controller can
make M1 slow down, then either M2 alone or the
combination of M1 and M2 can generate electricity.
Reversing the car is comparable to regeneration in
that M1 needs to be kept down in rpm by either
shorting it or allowing it to feed power (also
act as a generator in reverse) and M2 acting as
motor with the field switched as generator, so it
turns backwards while acting as motor.
Note that with AC motors, the direction of M2 can be
controlled without sudden changes, it can simply
modify the speed of M1 and M2 gradually and control
the current flow in or out (motor or generator).
The only restriction is to try and keep any motor
away from zero RPM by increasing or reducing the
opposite motor's speed. This will avoid overheating
the motor.
Even the Prius avoids some motor speeds, you will
notice this when driving that the engine when
slowly pushing the accelerator more and more will
suddenly jump up about 1000 rpm, this is where
the difference between wheel speed and engine
speed would cause the electric motor be near zero
rpm. The other motor however is often at zero speed,
as that is fixed connected to the engine, so as long
as the Prius is moving under electric power alone,
that motor is not moving and keeping the engine
from spinning by giving counter-torque against the
torque delivered by the first motor. The second
motor also doubles as a starter/generator although
both motors can at times become generators.
Real fascinating technology in the Prius.
Just some food for thought....
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bruce Weisenberger
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 4:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Clutchless gearbox CVT Warning
CVT on ICE's have a disengage ranging from 800 to 1500
rpm. This is to allows the ICE engine to idle.
This is true of all CVT's. I am not sure if you can
adjust the idle out of a CVT. As to AC Drives, they do
not require a transmission per say. But use a fixed
ratio single speed gearbox. See Electro Automotive for
a description. Imagine a CVT engaged while trying to
pull start that Polaris. Honda Scooters (Elite,
Silverwings [2000 era]) have CVT transmissions. Some
of the Toyota and Honda cars had CVT transmission.
I am not saying using a CVT is impossible, I am just
saying to be aware of the CVT limitation.
--- Jack Murray wrote:
> There is an EV ('48 Anglia) that uses a
> transmission-less setup with a
> Polaris CVT that gave it a 1:4 to 1:1 gearing range.
> I've tried to track down more info on this CVT, but
> haven't found much.
> The ATV's its used in have up to 200hp. I talked to
> a Polaris dealer,
> he said the CVT is more like a clutch and they have
> a separate
> transmission, told me the two pulleys and belt would
> be roughly $800.
> That isn't too expensive really, it would weigh A
> LOT LESS than a
> regular car transmission. Note a car transmission
> gives you reverse
> without needing to use reversing contactors for a
> serial DC motor.
>
> Personally I think an AC motor with a CVT setup is
> the way to go.. :)
>
> Jack
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I'm looking into this right now Tony, perhaps
> there is a manufacturer who 'got clever' in some way
> and electrified their autobax, which takes the
> hydraulic change aspect out of the equation.
> > Also under investigation is hte possibility of
> modifying one of the several types of CVT fitted in
> the past 15 years or so...For fitted one to the
> 'Fiesta' in the UK over 12 years ago and they're
> cheap from scrapyards.
> > As well as that I'm also looking out for an
> overdrive unit fitted to the older sports cars, and
> also the newer and older 4x4's
> > GKN make an electric overdrive with a 28% ratio
> reduction, which can be engaged on the run, it could
> be helpful, but I'ld sooner look into the CVT idea
> first, if anyone has any input on CVT's I'ld love to
> hear from you....it seems Toyota and Honda both do
> electrically operated CVT's, but you need to buy a
> hybrid first to get one....
> >
> > Cheers
> > Chris
> >
> > Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:39:43 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Tony Hwang
> > Subject: Re: Geo Metros
> > To: [email protected]
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> > Message-ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Content-Disposition: inline
> >
> > I think he meant swap the auto with someone else's
> manual, but I could be wrong.
> > :)
> >
> > With an auto though, you'd get rid of the torque
> converter, right? This is a big
> > source of inefficiency, and is needed just cause
> the ICE can't stop at idle, I
> > believe.
> >
> > - Tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, Cor, but I don't know. Jeff Shanab posted the original question and
test data.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 2:19:48 AM
Subject: RE: Battery test
David,
Do the bad batteries continue to drop or will they go to 9 - 10V
and stay there?
That would be a sign of a bad cell - often caused by reversing it
during a just-too-long trip or a drive after an incomplete charge.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Brandt
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 5:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery test
I think you've already got your answer (at least they are easier to get to).
Either replace those three or try remedial measures on them like individual
charging for those three for a few cycles, though it sounds like they got
consistently overcharged, and if that is the case, they need to be replaced.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2006 7:12:13 PM
Subject: Battery test
In suspision of a bad battery I performed the following test after 5
monthes of daily use @ about 14 miles a day.
In actuality about 3000 miles.
Average temperature 40's, 24 Excide Orbitals. not insulated, sept 2005
and apr 2005 Datecodes.
baseline:
Charged and let rest over 12 hours
Measured Open Circuit Voltage then voltage after 15 seconds at at 150Amps
test:
went for a drive removing 3Kwh
rest for 1 hour
Measured Open Circuit Voltage then voltage after 15 seconds at at 150Amps
Full Charge 3Kwh Down
battery location OCV @150 Amps trend OCV @150Amps trend
1 underhood 12.88 11.8 steady 12.48 11.6 steady
2 underhood 12.88 11.8 steady 12.46 11.4 steady
3 underhood 12.90 11.8 steady 12.52 11.6 steady
4 underhood 12.77 11.7 steady 12.37 11.4 steady
5 underhood 12.93 11.8 steady 12.55 11.6 steady
6 underhood 12.83 11.8 steady 12.44 11.5 steady
7 underhood 12.92 11.9 steady 12.53 11.6 steady
8 behindseat 12.88 11.9 steady 12.50 10.8
dropping fast
9 behindseat 12.84 11.9 steady 12.50 10.8
dropping fast
10 behindseat 12.64 11.6 steady 12.27 11.4 steady
11 behindseat 12.68 11.6 steady 12.30 10.6
dropping fast
12 behindseat 12.88 11.9 steady 12.53 11.6 steady
13 behindseat 12.89 11.9 steady 12.54 11.7 steady
14 behindseat 12.86 11.85 steady 12.53 11.8 steady
15 behindseat 12.75 11.9 steady 12.43 11.75 steady
16 behindseat 12.91 11.9 steady 12.57 11.8 steady
17 behindseat 12.865 11.8 steady 12.52 11.8 steady
18 behindseat 12.89 11.8 steady 12.52 11.8 steady
19 behindseat 12.83 11.8 steady 12.44 11.6 steady
20 behindseat 12.87 11.7 steady 12.46 11.75 steady
21 underhood 12.93 11.8 steady 12.57 11.8 steady
22 underhood 12.91 11.8 steady 12.55 11.8 steady
23 underhood 12.87 11.8 steady 12.52 11.8 steady
24 underhood 12.89 11.9 steady 12.52 11.6 steady
Conclusions #'s 8,9,11 are low capacity.
Should I take another reading at say 4kwh down? What happened to the
7kwh capacity? :(34ah 1hr rate * 288V =9792 * .8 = 7.8kwh)
My tester is only good for 15 seconds at a shot.
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