EV Digest 6211
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Electric Vehicles on Green Blogs All Over
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Belktronix?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Electric Vehicles on Green Blogs All Over
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) OT question for Prius owners
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 88 Jetta power steering stuff??
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: OT question for Prius owners
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: OT question for Prius owners
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Belktronix?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Caps in Armature
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Belktronix?
by "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Belktronix?
by "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Belktronix?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Details on Why Nimh Cannot be Paralleled
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Caps in Armature
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AGM's on end?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Belktronix?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: I need to find someone to ship my EV from Provo, UT to Atlanta, GA
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) hydrogen vs EVs article discussed on slashdot
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Details on Why Nimh Cannot be Paralleled
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Details on Why Nimh Cannot be Paralleled
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) 2-Speed Transmission Using a Differential?
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Increasing Pack Voltage
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Details on Why Nimh Cannot be Paralleled
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Increasing Pack Voltage - GE motor
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Increasing Pack Voltage - GE motor - more motor data
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Until and old friend of 15 years ago hunted me down and contacted me because
she saw a story about my truck on MSNBC I didn't
think to search where all the Electrabishi articles from the Anchorage Press
and Anchorage Daily News would up. So, I Googled
Electrabishi and am amazed at all the news and blog sites it came up on. Some
just reprinted the articles others added their own
creative license. Thinking about it now I'm not surprised but it sure wakes me
up now when people I don't know say they read about
me on a site that I've never heard of. The power of the internet is really
awesome. Here are some other places we are showing up.
My favorite is being quoted on the "HybridHippie" who asks "Whats an
Electrabishi?"
<start snip from letter to my wife>
I didn't realize MSNBC picked up this article. It sounds like the Daily News
one.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15013463/
Also made it to SurfWax: http://news.surfwax.com/equipment/files/Radiators.html
and AutoblogGreen:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/09/25/electrabishi-scores-electric-car-points-in-alaska/
or SoulTek: http://www.soultek.com/blog/2006/10/electrabishi-for-you.html
or the HybridHippie:
http://www.hybridhippie.com/2006/10/04/an-electrabishi-for-you/
and CleanMPG: http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2229
holy <snip>, do a Google search for "electrabishi" ....
Thomas Higgins <ploitician in our local elections who plugs EAA and AlaskaEVA>
even got in on the action by posting links on the
first two lines on his website: http://votethomas.com/links.html
<end snip from letter to my wife>
Also
http://research.womensmarts.com/lead/acid/car/battery/lead_acid_car_battery.html
seems to be posting a lot of the news about
electric vehicles.
The Earth Angles EZBoard my wife visits came up with WKtEC.
http://p104.ezboard.com/bearthangelsforum So I had to join to do some
EVangel work. The electric vehicle thread is in the General Section :-)
The FuelClinic blog, with commentary
http://blog.fuelclinic.com/2006/09/19/giving-up-gasoline/
etc. etc. etc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Belktronix?
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:44:36 -0800
You mean to say you don't have a way to equalize your batteries?
Hmm, someone who doesn't is taking THE BIGGEST SHORTCUT themselves.
Jack
Hi, JACK
In fact, I do have a charger with an equalization mode, but that's not the
point. Not everyone does.
It's still a bad idea to tap part of the pack. Creating a battery imbalance
is never a good idea, even if you have the ability to re-balance them.
Especially with AGM's or gels. You're just asking for trouble.
It also means you need to run another high voltage wire in the car - which
also necessitates an additional high voltage DC-rated fuse at the pack.
And, it means they were too cheap ( or, worse, incapable) of including a
simple voltage regulator (or, higher voltage internal DC-DC) to avoid the
mid-pack tap and do it right.
Phil
Phil Marino wrote:
Andrew,
Looking through the website, I noticed that the controller needs a 24 tap
from the traction pack. That means that two of the 12V batteries ( or 4
batteries, if they're 6 volters) will have more load on them than the
rest. Even if it's a light load, to me, that's just not the best way to
do it. And it means you have to have another high voltage line coming
from the traction pack.
You won't find a need for a mid-pack tap on a Zilla, or even a Curtis.
This may or may not be a real indicator of how well everything is
designed, but it makes me wonder if other shortcuts were taken.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered
by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Fantastic! This is EXACTLY what we need. :)
The more of us go out and do news articles the more the general
public will start to wake up to EVs.
My review of the MiniEl has already received well over 1600 hits in
three days. That sure shows that there's interest :)
Nikki.
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
On 13 Dec 2006, at 10:01, Mike Willmon wrote:
Until and old friend of 15 years ago hunted me down and contacted
me because she saw a story about my truck on MSNBC I didn't
think to search where all the Electrabishi articles from the
Anchorage Press and Anchorage Daily News would up. So, I Googled
Electrabishi and am amazed at all the news and blog sites it came
up on. Some just reprinted the articles others added their own
creative license. Thinking about it now I'm not surprised but it
sure wakes me up now when people I don't know say they read about
me on a site that I've never heard of. The power of the internet
is really awesome. Here are some other places we are showing up.
My favorite is being quoted on the "HybridHippie" who asks "Whats
an Electrabishi?"
<start snip from letter to my wife>
I didn't realize MSNBC picked up this article. It sounds like the
Daily News one.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15013463/
Also made it to SurfWax: http://news.surfwax.com/equipment/files/
Radiators.html
and AutoblogGreen: http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/09/25/
electrabishi-scores-electric-car-points-in-alaska/
or SoulTek: http://www.soultek.com/blog/2006/10/electrabishi-for-
you.html
or the HybridHippie: http://www.hybridhippie.com/2006/10/04/an-
electrabishi-for-you/
and CleanMPG: http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2229
holy <snip>, do a Google search for "electrabishi" ....
Thomas Higgins <ploitician in our local elections who plugs EAA and
AlaskaEVA> even got in on the action by posting links on the
first two lines on his website: http://votethomas.com/links.html
<end snip from letter to my wife>
Also http://research.womensmarts.com/lead/acid/car/battery/
lead_acid_car_battery.html seems to be posting a lot of the news about
electric vehicles.
The Earth Angles EZBoard my wife visits came up with WKtEC. http://
p104.ezboard.com/bearthangelsforum So I had to join to do some
EVangel work. The electric vehicle thread is in the General
Section :-)
The FuelClinic blog, with commentary http://blog.fuelclinic.com/
2006/09/19/giving-up-gasoline/
etc. etc. etc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My wife recently bought a new 2006 Prius. Recently she's been getting concerned
about the mileage
and is questioning whether her car is working right, or has Toyota been selling
us a bill of
goods. Now, I never expected to get the 55-60 mgp the sticker reported, but
sometimes the mileage
is in the low 40's. This is my wife driving, no hotrodding, country driving,
little highway.
But even more disconcerting is the disparity between the cars reported mileage
and actual milage.
The trip computer told us we got 49 mpg on the last tank full. But by
calculating it ourself, it's
closer to 40. That's almost a 25% error in the cars calculations, what gives?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
When I first design the pulley size that I was going to used off the main
motor, I was going to use a 4 inch diameter pulley on my main motor. My
master mechanic, said I should use the same size that is off the engine
which is 8 inches in diameter.
The GM power steering unit has a 4 inch pulley, so if my engine is at 6000
rpm, the power steering is at 12,000 rpm!!. He said, there is a relief
value in these units, so as the pressure does not get too high. If this
value is stays open or out of adjustment, then the pressure will not come
up.
So we try a 6 inch diameter pulley off the main motor. The power steering
unit comes on line when the motor rpm is about 300 rpm which makes its 450
rpm at the pump.
If I use a 8 inch diameter pulley on the main motor. The motor rpm could be
at 225 rpm so it would be 450 at the pump.
To check the hydraulic pressure, disconnect the pressure hose from the gear
and connect a pressure gauge between the fluid reservoir and the steering
gear. Run the motor at 500 rpm which would be about 2000 rpm at the pump
(normal for a ICE, but found about 300 rpm for a motor works).
The pressure should come be 80-125 psi. If the pressure is less than that,
then you either have a hose restriction. You may have to adjust the power
steering gear or flow control value. This adjustment on some power steering
units is a small slotted screw that has a locking nut.
Do not connect a pressure switch to this pressure line by it self without
running to the steering gear, or you will ruin the flow control value.
But first, see if you have the correct rpm to make your power steering unit
work. It takes about 450 rpm on my GM unit for it to kick in.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 12:00 AM
Subject: 88 Jetta power steering stuff??
> Hi EVerybody;;
>
> Anybody fool around with power steering stuff? I'm trying to get my 88
> Jetta's to work. running the PS pump off the motor. Running the motor in
> neutral, on 12 volts it SHOULD be running up enough to make the damn P.S.
> work? Right? I think I have it running the correct direction, I tried
> both,
> thinking I have it bracketed bass ackwards, no difference.Bought a new
> resovoir that doesn't leak, the issue the other night.I don't think you
> would hafta bleed it or something?It has the two hoses, intake and output.
> I
> don't think it is Rocket Science, must be SOMETHING I'm doing wrong?
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dave,
Driving conditions make a big difference in mpg results. For example a
friend of my has the same vehicle I had, a 1977 El Camino with a 300 hp 350
cu.in. v-8 engine with a 2.76:1 differential.
He drives to work, the same place I go, and he can get as high as 27 mpg to
a low as 18 mpg. I driving to the same work place, get as high as 13 mpg
and a low as 4 mpg.
The reason he gets a higher mpg, is that he is driving 10 miles which starts
out on a 8 mile down hill grade and than a 2 mile up hill grade. At the
start of the 2 mile up hill grade, he is up to 65 mph.
For me, I live at the base of this hill, starting out with a cold engine
going up this hill I pull down to 2 in.hg. which is 4 mpg at 30 below zero.
Coming down this hill, even if the engine is off, all I can do is double the
4 mpg to 8 mpg for the same distance travel.
In the summer, when the temperature was at or above 100 F., engine prewarm
to 240 F, I slowly went up this steep hill holding it at 19.5 mpg and than
can back down at 666 mpg. This gave me a two way average of 39.5 mpg.
I using a Holly computerize flow meter which measures, mpg, instant mpg,
rpm, distance travel and time away.
So it depends of what kind of driving you do.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:34 AM
Subject: OT question for Prius owners
> My wife recently bought a new 2006 Prius. Recently she's been getting
> concerned about the mileage
> and is questioning whether her car is working right, or has Toyota been
> selling us a bill of
> goods. Now, I never expected to get the 55-60 mgp the sticker reported,
> but sometimes the mileage
> is in the low 40's. This is my wife driving, no hotrodding, country
> driving, little highway.
>
> But even more disconcerting is the disparity between the cars reported
> mileage and actual milage.
> The trip computer told us we got 49 mpg on the last tank full. But by
> calculating it ourself, it's
> closer to 40. That's almost a 25% error in the cars calculations, what
> gives?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This question is off topic and inappropriate for the EV list. If you reply,
please respond DIRECTLY TO THE POSTER, not on the list.
Thanks.
Send replies to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But the question was what other reason than equalization?
I understand the reason of equalization, but Shari said REGARDLESS of
equalization not to do it.
The draw of a controllers control electronics is quite small, it would
be within the noise of battery unequalness.
I know nothing about Belktronix or its controller, but having built my
own I see an advantage to having a 24v input. If you include a DC-DC in
the controller it will have to be designed for some voltage range.
You can always add your own DC-DC if you don't want to tap mid-pack, but
you can't remove one yourself if its embedded in the controller, for
example min 96v or max 120v. My controller has a 48v->15v DC-DC.
Jack
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Jack, The first answer is that most people do not do an equalize charge
daily. There are some chargers on the market that do not even have this
ability. Once batteries start to get out of balance they get
progressively out of balance and some get overcharged while others are
not brought all the way up to a full charge. On liquid lead acid
batteries this is not as critical but it can still do damage by
overstressing the batteries you are boiling away while the others are
trying to catch up.
An exception to the rule. I received a call yesterday from a guy
wanting a 36 volt DC to DC converter. I asked him what voltage he was
running .He said 72. I told him that this is not a good thing to run off
half the pack. His reply was that they use two 36 volt chargers and
charge the packs separately. In this particular case it is fine to run
the DC to DC off half the pack.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Murray"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: Belktronix?
why? what reason is there other than equalization?
Jack
Electro Automotive wrote:
At 10:44 AM 12/12/2006, you wrote:
You mean to say you don't have a way to equalize your batteries?
Hmm, someone who doesn't is taking THE BIGGEST SHORTCUT themselves.
Jack
Phil Marino wrote:
Andrew,
Looking through the website, I noticed that the controller needs a
24 tap from the traction pack. That means that two of the 12V
batteries ( or 4 batteries, if they're 6 volters) will have more
load on them than the rest. Even if it's a light load, to me,
that's just not the best way to do it. And it means you have to
have another high voltage line coming from the traction pack.
You won't find a need for a mid-pack tap on a Zilla, or even a Curtis.
This may or may not be a real indicator of how well everything is
designed, but it makes me wonder if other shortcuts were taken.
Phil
I agree with Phil. REGARDLESS of battery equalization, don't tap part
of your pack for another use.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date:
12/11/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward,
I have seen caps used on the terminals of small PM motors, wired from
positive to ground and negative to ground, outside the motor, ground being the
motor case. These were for RC stuff, so I'm pretty sure the caps were for
electrical noise surpression. I have never seen caps on the armature, but my
guess it is for the same thing. Creating a low pass filter. I doubt they
would have much if any affect on brush arcing.
Also my guess, the caps would be wired across the armature coil, or in
parallel to make the low pass filter. Small PM motors have few armature coils,
as few as three. Your big traction motors will have 30 to 40 or more armature
coils. Caps on those armatures present practicality issues and have dubious
benefit. The coil resistance is so low, caps would have to be quite large to
have a useful cutoff frequency.
Jeff Major
Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I remember seeing caps in some small permanent magnet motors. Yes,
rotating with the armature. Could someone explain the purpose of
these caps?
Reduce arcing? Electrical noise? Safety? How are they connected,
series or parallel? Would it help to have caps in a large series
motor like the ADC motors?
Thank you.
--
Edward Ang
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm,
Planned batteries are US2200s, in a 120v pack, but I'm
open to other suggestions (within that price range, of
course).
Thanks!
Andrew
--- Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What kind of batteries are you contemplating? I may
> be able to help.
> storm
____________________________________________________________________________________
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can certainly understand not using a mid-pack tap
for something that's going to draw a noticeable amount
of current (such as headlights and windshield wipers),
especially on 12v. But a 24v tap to run the control
circuitry? It can't possibly draw more than a couple
amps?
It also looks like Belktronix offers a fairly nice PFC
charger, with temperature limiting and that sort of
thing. Probably designed to work with the controller
requirements, right?
Thanks again for the input.
Andrew
--- Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But the question was what other reason than
> equalization?
> I understand the reason of equalization, but Shari
> said REGARDLESS of
> equalization not to do it.
> The draw of a controllers control electronics is
> quite small, it would
> be within the noise of battery unequalness.
>
> I know nothing about Belktronix or its controller,
> but having built my
> own I see an advantage to having a 24v input. If you
> include a DC-DC in
> the controller it will have to be designed for some
> voltage range.
> You can always add your own DC-DC if you don't want
> to tap mid-pack, but
> you can't remove one yourself if its embedded in the
> controller, for
> example min 96v or max 120v. My controller has a
> 48v->15v DC-DC.
>
> Jack
>
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
> > Jack, The first answer is that most people do not
> do an equalize charge
> > daily. There are some chargers on the market that
> do not even have this
> > ability. Once batteries start to get out of
> balance they get
> > progressively out of balance and some get
> overcharged while others are
> > not brought all the way up to a full charge. On
> liquid lead acid
> > batteries this is not as critical but it can still
> do damage by
> > overstressing the batteries you are boiling away
> while the others are
> > trying to catch up.
> > An exception to the rule. I received a call
> yesterday from a guy
> > wanting a 36 volt DC to DC converter. I asked him
> what voltage he was
> > running .He said 72. I told him that this is not a
> good thing to run off
> > half the pack. His reply was that they use two 36
> volt chargers and
> > charge the packs separately. In this particular
> case it is fine to run
> > the DC to DC off half the pack.
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> > www.suckamps.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Murray"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: Belktronix?
> >
> >
> >> why? what reason is there other than
> equalization?
> >>
> >> Jack
> >> Electro Automotive wrote:
> >>
> >>> At 10:44 AM 12/12/2006, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> You mean to say you don't have a way to
> equalize your batteries?
> >>>> Hmm, someone who doesn't is taking THE BIGGEST
> SHORTCUT themselves.
> >>>> Jack
> >>>>
> >>>> Phil Marino wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Andrew,
> >>>>> Looking through the website, I noticed that
> the controller needs a
> >>>>> 24 tap from the traction pack. That means
> that two of the 12V
> >>>>> batteries ( or 4 batteries, if they're 6
> volters) will have more
> >>>>> load on them than the rest. Even if it's a
> light load, to me,
> >>>>> that's just not the best way to do it. And it
> means you have to
> >>>>> have another high voltage line coming from the
> traction pack.
> >>>>> You won't find a need for a mid-pack tap on a
> Zilla, or even a Curtis.
> >>>>> This may or may not be a real indicator of how
> well everything is
> >>>>> designed, but it makes me wonder if other
> shortcuts were taken.
> >>>>> Phil
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree with Phil. REGARDLESS of battery
> equalization, don't tap part
> >>> of your pack for another use.
> >>>
> >>> Shari Prange
> >>> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113
> Telephone 831-429-1989
> >>> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components *
> Books * Videos * Since 1979
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582
> - Release Date:
> >> 12/11/2006
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Belktronix?
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:46:27 -0800
But the question was what other reason than equalization?
I understand the reason of equalization, but Shari said REGARDLESS of
equalization not to do it.
The draw of a controllers control electronics is quite small, it would be
within the noise of battery unequalness.
Another reason is safety. If you have a circuit breaker or manual
disconnect in your pack, you can throw that one switch, and your car is safe
to work on.
If you have a mid-pack tap, you would need another DC-capable switch or
disconnect, and remember to use it every time you needed to work on the car.
And also, of course, you would need a high-voltage, DC fuse where this third
line connected to the pack.
I know nothing about Belktronix or its controller, but having built my own
I see an advantage to having a 24v input. If you include a DC-DC in the
controller it will have to be designed for some voltage range.
Sure - the same voltage range as the controller. I don't see any problem
here. Every reputable controller manufacture does it with no special
restrictions on the controllers use because of this.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Share your latest news with your friends with the Windows Live Spaces
friends module.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We finally got a chance to post some graphs. Some of you may have
seen these graphs already.
http://www.airlabcorp.com
http://www.airlabcorp.com/web/charge_discharge_curves.htm
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
I remember seeing caps in some small permanent magnet motors. Yes,
rotating with the armature. Could someone explain the purpose of
these caps?
Reduce arcing? Electrical noise? Safety? How are they connected,
series or parallel? Would it help to have caps in a large series
motor like the ADC motors?
Usually, they are there to reduce EMI, so brush noise doesn't get into
sensitive electronics. I've seen them in disk drives and cassette tape
player motors, where they need to have extremely sensitive amplifiers in
close proximity to the motors.
They may also reduce arcing; but that's not a problem with motors under
30v or so.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
There was a thread a month or so ago, discussing that stacking
AGMS on their short side will be the BEST orientation they can
get, because the plates are then horizontal, so heavier
electrolyte cannot migrate through the glass matt to the bottom.
There's something that's not being mentioned here. The Optima AGM has
one common "box" for all the cells. There is no wall between cells; just
air.
If you set it on its side or end, when you equalize it (charge until it
gasses), the bubbles can force a little bit of liquid electrolyte to
drip out the sides of the cells on top, and fall to the cells on the
bottom. The glass mats in the bottom cells will absorb this extra
electrolyte. Over time, you wind up with the top cells short on
electrolyte, and the bottom cells with too much.
If you ever have a serious overcharging "event" with an Optima on its
side, you can force so much electrolyte out of the top cells that it can
actually short out the lower cells. There is no insulation on the
jumpers between cells!
Most other brands of AGMs and gels have each cell in its own separate
box. There is no way for electrolyte from one cell to get to any other
cell. Orientation has almost no effect; you can operate these cells in
any position except upside down.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
It's still a bad idea to tap part of the pack. Creating a battery
imbalance is never a good idea, even if you have the ability to
re-balance them.
Well, to be fair...
Tapping the pack *is* a bad idea when you draw significant amounts of
power from the tap. This happens when you run contactors or headlights
from it, or something like an E-meter that draws current 24 hours a day.
But we're talking about a controller here. It's probably only "on" for
maybe 1 hour a day (1/2 hour driving to work, 1/2 hour driving home). If
the tap only draws control power, it may be only 100ma or less. That's
only 0.1 amphour of imbalance. On a 100 amphour pack, that's so low as
to be insignificant. The normal variations in self-discharge rates
between batteries are larger than this.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shipping a vehicle is really like rolling dice.
The main things you are interested in are:
* timely shipment
* undamaged shipment
* insured if your shipment is damaged, lost or stolen
* constrained cost
Most all the transport haulers you will contact are brokers---i.e. they most
likely won't be hauling your vehicle. This is key to understanding that
they really have no control over the first 3 of the 4 items above.
Sure, they'll give you a delivery date or window----but that'll slip.
Sure, for a price they'll assure you the vehicle won't be offloaded and
reloaded at transport hubs---a likely occassion for damage to the
vehicle---but testimonials by others show this gets violated routinely.
Sure, they'll assure you that your vehicle will be hauled in an enclosed
trailer, but even that isn't guaranteed even if you pay for it.
Finally, they'll assure you that the hauler will ensure your vehicle for
$50k or so...
But they really have no control of any of the above.
As Don alluded to, the broker gets your contract and down payment, then
essentially put your job out for bid by the haulers.
In my case, I wanted assurance that my antique electric vehicle would be
hauled in an enclosed trailer, with no transfers at hubs and with an ensured
hauler and with delivery within a week. I was also told that "most likely"
one of their own vehicles would haul my car because they have their own
enclosed trailers.
The result?
It took about 2 weeks to get the car shipped.
I never received any proof that the hauler was ensuring my vehicle.
I never received any gaurantee that the vehicle wouldn't be offloaded at
hubs.
I did get told eventually that the hauler was a different company and was
even given a phone #, which is good.
I paid over $500 more to go with this broker/shipper for the specific
reasons that they conned me into believing that they would ship themselves
and that they'd pick it up within a 2-day window and deliver within a week.
They did neither.
I did receive the vehicle in great shape, from a local Portland motorcycle
hauler and that's great.
I thought I'd get premium service for premium $$$$---rather, I left feeling
that next time it may best be to just roll the dice with one of the lower
bids.
I was lucky.
-Myles Twete
1921 Milburn Light Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/13/012249
Looks like it needs more input from EVers.
Eric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very nice to see those Ed. Too bad none of us can buy your hardware
unless we are a corp or business.
As I experienced, paralleling nimh can be done by charging the packs
separately every now and then. But then again, I doubt we'll see much
nimh paralleling in home brewed EV's.
Mike
--- Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We finally got a chance to post some graphs. Some of you may have
> seen these graphs already.
>
> http://www.airlabcorp.com
>
> http://www.airlabcorp.com/web/charge_discharge_curves.htm
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> President
> AIR Lab Corp
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Uh, you mention details, yet I see none.
I see 2 summary graphs.
No details such as:
* batteries tested (doesn't even say NiMH if that's what was tested)
* time scale of discharge/charge
* discharge stop criteria (presumably voltage...)
* how AH discharged for individual cells was determined (presumably
monitored individually...yet if shunts used, then batteries not technically
in parallel)
Presented more as a product sales pitch graph, it really doesn't illuminate
the issue for engineers and professionals interested in the "details".
Myles Twete, PE
Portland, Or.
>
> We finally got a chance to post some graphs. Some of you may have
> seen these graphs already.
>
> http://www.airlabcorp.com
>
> http://www.airlabcorp.com/web/charge_discharge_curves.htm
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> President
> AIR Lab Corp
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(View with fixed-width font)
What if I connect a small permanent magnet motor with a gear reduction
on one side of a differential and a large traction motor on the other
side of the differential like the ASCII diagram below? I would have a
3 speed transmission.
1st gear
Connect the PM motor to the pack with a diode to allow the PM motor to
recharge the pack when its voltage is higher than the pack. When this
happens, the PM motor would apply a torque thru the reduction grear to
its side of the differential. Essentially, you will have a torque
converter that pretty much locks up when the RPM is higher than some
value. And, the drive ratio is > 1:1.
2nd gear
Lock the disk brake. The drive ratio would be 1:1.
Of course, this assumes that the differential would not fail first due
to the improper application.
Would this work?
Drive| Gear
Shalf| Reduction
|
| -- | ----
_+_ | |--+-| |
/ \___| | | ----
\ / -- PM Motor
-+- ^
| Disk
----- Brake
| |
| |
| |Traction
| | Motor
| |
-----
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What a great site for a newbie to get educated. Thanks to all of you for being
willing to share your knowledge.
I have a question about how much voltage a particular motor can handle. I
cannot see any ID tag on the motor. However, I can only see a very small part
of the case. I purchased 1981 ford escort which was converted to electric as
an experimental project.
When I purchased the car it was operating on 108 volts. I have replaced the
batteries with US 2000 batteries. I would like to add two additional batteries
to get 120 volts. When I purchased the car I was told that the motor was a 9
inch General Electric. In the paper work I received I found a note with the
following information:
General Electric DC motor
Model # 5BT1346B38
HP 20.9
WDG Series
V 90
A 184
No FS8-420-FS
RPM 4707
Encl BV
Duty 1hr 140 superscript c CL.H
I tried GEs web site but could not find any information of this model #
Does anyone recognize this motor? Will it damage this motor to subject it to
120 volts?
Does anyone know a web site that might give me more information on this motor?
The controller is a Curtis 1221C
What are the risks of increasing the battery pack to 20 six-volt batteries?
Thanks for your help!!
--
In Friendship, Ted
//ted.sanders.home.comcast.net
//ffni.home.comcast.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Actually, we have data showing it is not even safe to leave them
connected in parallel for a few hours. One or more would always try
to recharge the others. When this happens, the ones receiving current
would tend to heat up and continue to receive more current. This
creates a possitive feedback that would eventually cause pack failures
if not corrected in time. Besides Ah, our system also monitors other
parameters like temperature and voltage. So, the effect is very
clearly seen.
On 12/13/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Very nice to see those Ed. Too bad none of us can buy your hardware
unless we are a corp or business.
As I experienced, paralleling nimh can be done by charging the packs
separately every now and then. But then again, I doubt we'll see much
nimh paralleling in home brewed EV's.
Mike
--- Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We finally got a chance to post some graphs. Some of you may have
> seen these graphs already.
>
> http://www.airlabcorp.com
>
> http://www.airlabcorp.com/web/charge_discharge_curves.htm
>
> --
> Edward Ang
> President
> AIR Lab Corp
>
>
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm don't know what the difference is, but the
GE 5BT1346B50 is the 9" motor that GE donated to high
schools and colleges back in the early 90's.
It has the following nameplate data similar to yours,
HP 20.9
Volt 90
other info;
Brush grade T300
Arm R = 0.0046 ohms
Field R = 0.0039 ohms
Many of the teams GE donated these too ran on the
range of voltages 96 - 144Vdc.
You should have no problem with 120Vdc.
Rod
ex GE-EVS employee
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> What a great site for a newbie to get educated.
> Thanks to all of you for being willing to share your
> knowledge.
>
> I have a question about how much voltage a
> particular motor can handle. I cannot see any ID
> tag on the motor. However, I can only see a very
> small part of the case. I purchased 1981 ford
> escort which was converted to electric as an
> experimental project.
> When I purchased the car it was operating on 108
> volts. I have replaced the batteries with US 2000
> batteries. I would like to add two additional
> batteries to get 120 volts. When I purchased the
> car I was told that the motor was a 9 inch General
> Electric. In the paper work I received I found a
> note with the following information:
>
> General Electric DC motor
> Model # 5BT1346B38
> HP 20.9
> WDG Series
> V 90
> A 184
> No FS8-420-FS
> RPM 4707
> Encl BV
> Duty 1hr 140 superscript c CL.H
>
> I tried GEs web site but could not find any
> information of this model #
>
> Does anyone recognize this motor? Will it damage
> this motor to subject it to 120 volts?
> Does anyone know a web site that might give me more
> information on this motor?
>
> The controller is a Curtis 1221C
>
> What are the risks of increasing the battery pack to
> 20 six-volt batteries?
>
> Thanks for your help!!
> --
> In Friendship, Ted
> //ted.sanders.home.comcast.net
> //ffni.home.comcast.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Additional info for the 5BT1346BT50
20.9HP, 4700RPM, 90V, 184Amps - this is the 1 hour
rating up to 140 degrees C.
other
Mounting: C-flange
Weight: 170 lbs
dimensions: 17.75"x9"dia
Indicators: one NO thermostat (usually 2 white 16GA
wires coming out of the motor housing)
Enclosure: blower ventilated
Rotation: clockwise (shaft end I'm assuming?)
Insulation: H (total temp 180C)
Max motor speed: 6500RPM
Reference outline: 36B550574AH (SK93C50130)
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm don't know what the difference is, but the
> GE 5BT1346B50 is the 9" motor that GE donated to
> high
> schools and colleges back in the early 90's.
> It has the following nameplate data similar to
> yours,
> HP 20.9
> Volt 90
> other info;
> Brush grade T300
> Arm R = 0.0046 ohms
> Field R = 0.0039 ohms
> Many of the teams GE donated these too ran on the
> range of voltages 96 - 144Vdc.
> You should have no problem with 120Vdc.
> Rod
> ex GE-EVS employee
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >
> > What a great site for a newbie to get educated.
> > Thanks to all of you for being willing to share
> your
> > knowledge.
> >
> > I have a question about how much voltage a
> > particular motor can handle. I cannot see any ID
> > tag on the motor. However, I can only see a very
> > small part of the case. I purchased 1981 ford
> > escort which was converted to electric as an
> > experimental project.
> > When I purchased the car it was operating on 108
> > volts. I have replaced the batteries with US 2000
> > batteries. I would like to add two additional
> > batteries to get 120 volts. When I purchased the
> > car I was told that the motor was a 9 inch General
> > Electric. In the paper work I received I found a
> > note with the following information:
> >
> > General Electric DC motor
> > Model # 5BT1346B38
> > HP 20.9
> > WDG Series
> > V 90
> > A 184
> > No FS8-420-FS
> > RPM 4707
> > Encl BV
> > Duty 1hr 140 superscript c CL.H
> >
> > I tried GEs web site but could not find any
> > information of this model #
> >
> > Does anyone recognize this motor? Will it damage
> > this motor to subject it to 120 volts?
> > Does anyone know a web site that might give me
> more
> > information on this motor?
> >
> > The controller is a Curtis 1221C
> >
> > What are the risks of increasing the battery pack
> to
> > 20 six-volt batteries?
> >
> > Thanks for your help!!
> > --
> > In Friendship, Ted
> > //ted.sanders.home.comcast.net
> > //ffni.home.comcast.net
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
