EV Digest 6225
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: [seva] URGENT CALL - Need Weather Related MEMBER reports
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Used Batteries WAS Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ...
rea...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Sagging vs. discharge and cell reversal
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) A little bit OT: Dashboard gauge needle / pointer
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Battery Calculator
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Controller on Trolley Transit Buses
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Prius transmission link
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Zener regs revisited
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Sagging vs. discharge and cell reversal
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Sagging vs. discharge and cell reversal
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Battery Advice PLEASE
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) TESLA on the BBC World News !
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Zener regs revisited
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 3 Wheelers stability issues
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Zener regs revisited
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) A123 EV pack (was Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Zap Xebra
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Zener regs revisited
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Used Batteries WAS Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile
range ... rea...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity...
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey folks I am fine also..
We never lost power over here.
I have been helping folks with my Genset a few times, But I am back in the
drivers seat here.
I Feel cheated... Inever really got to use the inverter and the generators.
I had one string of light set to come on when the Grid went away.. never
happened.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Sherry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [seva] URGENT CALL - Need Weather Related MEMBER reports
>
> Dave Cloud and I are alive and well. Dave sent his wife and daughter on
> a cruise Friday morning, so he is by himself. You may have heard that
> Woodinville-Duvall road is closed between Avondale and Paradise Lake
> Road? Well, the major problem there is right at the end of Dave's
> street. In order to get in or out you have to go the back way, which
> involves using another houses driveway. He has an inverter, and a
> jillion batteries, and has been spending most of his time watching
> movies. He won't have power for a while. His phone line is down, so if
> you need him, use his cell number.
>
> I live a bit west of him, between downtown Woodinville, and Cottage
> Lake. We will be out of power for a while too, I don't expect it back
> before Friday, but it would be nice to have power for Christmas, as I
> will have half of my wife's family, and most of mine over. Dave loaned
> me some batteries, and I am keeping the bottom half of the house warm
> with a fireplace insert, and presto logs. The batteries run my little
> 300w inverter, which runs the insert fan, charges cell phones and such.
>
> Camping out in my own house, What an Adventure!
> --
> Bruce Sherry
> 206-909-3409
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Steven Lough wrote:
> >
> > AND - VERY PERSONAL - My Sister is in S.E. King Co. in East Auburn
> > With out Power for several MORE days..going on a week!
> >
> > Does any one HAVE, or know some one who HAS a generator, whic is NOW NOT
> > being used, which I could borrow... They are despirate...
> > I know this is a L O N G S H O T...
> > IF YOU HAVE A LEAD... Call me ...Don't have me wait for an e-mail
> > Response... 206 850 8535, or 206 524 1351 HURRY !!!
> >
> > ---------------------
> >
> > But also... If you have power, you are probably getting this report.
> > Let us know how it went for you...
> >
> > We are OK.. Neighborhood round U-Village only out for less than 2 hours
> > Thursday night. Went all the way to Whidbey Island to check out our
> > cabin on Lagoon Point. All OK their now too. Power back on...
> >
> > So How's with you folks.... Any stories of powering your furnace,
> > through an inverter, from your EV bat. Pack ??
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org
> If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of: unsubscribe seva
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just reading the information here this does not look right. I have not seen
any lead acid 120Ah batteries rated at the C-20 rate that weigh 57 pounds. Is
this a C-100 rating?
Don
In a message dated 12/17/2006 4:36:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If they are marine batteries, that rating is at a 20 Amp discharge rate. At
400 A, the cycle life and capacity will be very poor. That's if they are
what I think they are.
Steve
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Check out Walmart for EverStart part number MAXX-29, 120 AH 12 volt marine
battery that weighs 57 lbs for 64.96 this is the cheap battery I am going to
use in my VW Bug for now.
They are a little heavy but with that amount of amp hours I should have a
very long range in a light car.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a curious question-- not an issue I've had...
I've been careful not to drop below 126V with my 144v
pack under any circumstance, because I'd calculated
that that was the point that I'd be reversing cells.
A major contributor to the list wrote that if the
voltage drop is due to SAG, then you can drop below
that point, and not worry about reversing cells.
Soooo, what is that point then, for me, if it's not
126V? I mean, obviously, 84V is out of the question.
So are we talking "okay to 120, but only for short
lengths of time?"
Thanks,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have some snifty high-torque meter movements (Beede Super Torque) that
I was going to use for speedo / amps / whatever.
One thing that is proving really difficult to locate are meter needles
that don't cost an arm and a leg. You know, the little orange pointer
thing that moves on your speedometer?
I have found some fancy models for $50 and up, but I'm just looking for
your basic el-cheapo pointer.
I know I can make my own easily enough, but it seems this should be a $1
item, if only I knew where to look.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Robert,
Friendly reminder to watch your units, as w/hr (Watt per hour)
is not very meaningful, I assume that you meant to say Wh
(Watthour) which is a unit of energy.
Same with a/hr (Amp per hour?) which has no useful meaning
because you mean Ah (Amphour, being Amp times hours, not
divided by hours).
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Robert Lemke
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 12:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Calculator
I use this one http://www.4qd.co.uk/faq/current.html and others on their
site. Also, range is effected by type of motor and other variables but fall
in around 100 w/hr per mile for the lightest, least rolling resistance
3-wheeled vehicle to about 600 w/hr per mile for a 5000 lb van. Battery
voltage and a/hr will help you crunch range, i.e. 360 volt 94 a/hr traction
pack yields 33.8 kw/hr and if you consume 300 w/hr per mile at 60 mph your
range would be 112.6 miles providing the 94a/hr is not based on 10 or 20
hour rates.
Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Something like that ?
http://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/?s=b
-kert
On 12/18/06, Gary Van Ravenswaay wrote:
> Greetings all,
>
> I'm a highly infrequent contributor to this list (time
> is the issue not interest!). I was wondering if anyone
> knows of a battery calculator available on the web.
> I'm doing some theoretical what if for a ground-up EV
> and I need to get some idea of space allocation for
> batteries. I'm thinking fairly high performance. Can
> I simply take target horsepower divided by probable
> voltage to get amps required then just look at battery
> specs and do the math or do I need a fudge factor? Am
> I forgetting something? Thanks in advance for the
> advice!
>
> Gary Van Ravenswaay (hopeful future EV'er!)
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
Or, on the wires, use a capacitor/battery bank to help
with power up steep hills, mitigating the overload.
Also a good place to store breaking (regen) power, to
get back up to speed.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jim Dempsey
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 2:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Controller on Trolley Transit Buses
Your answer: Depends on the trolley.
Here in Seattle, Metro King County currently runs three different flavors of
trolley; the old-style DC, the new-fangled DC, and the retrofitted AC
Bredas.
I think the old style use enormous SCR controllers. The slow the old
locomotive method, by giving some power from the overhead wire in reverse to
the motor. The newer DC use more advanced drives, as they can decelerate
regeneratively, feeding power back up the line.
The Bredas originally drove electrically only in the now closed bus tunnel,
so they used AC drives. Water (such as from Seattle rain) has poor side
effects with ac (surface effect?). Rather than retrofit the trolley fleet,
Metro now feeds these beasts dc. They slow by shunting the motor power to a
three-stage resistive load on the roof, heating the world. I guess newer AC
locomotives now do the same thing, mostly to save fuel.
The Breda system, though, was designed on the cheap and had near disastrous
consequences when they ran the busses out of the tunnel, but that's another
story.
In a short answer to your question, all these different controllers are
enormous, driving up to 33 ton vehicles (empty). Furthermore, they are
designed to pull up to 600 amps from 300+ volt lines . . . even then, the
Bredas are too huge to service routes with severe hills, such as up Capital
or Queen Anne hills. They just pop the breakers and stop all service.
You would need to carry a trailer full of batteries just to feed these
beasts without a wire.
Sorry for the rambling answer.
Jim
EMB Lectra #66
Now a Bus Driver
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 10:17:22 PM
Subject: Controller on Trolley Transit Buses
Does anyone know anything about how the speed is controlled on an electric
transit bus? Do they use resistors or do they use SCR or MOSFET
controllers? How about electric locomotives? What kind of controller do
they use?
Might it be possible to use a surplus bus or train controller in an EV and
get more amps than a 'Zilla?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree it's a great link.....but I'm not so old as to have worked on an old
printing press though, the machine I mentioned was made by Delphax in New
England. It was an Ion Deposition printer, like a photocopier only working with
a much soimpler print process and on rolls of paper which feed out at 300
feet per minute.
The differential idea used on that machine isn't on a par with the
sophistication of the Prius's transmission it has to be said
Chris
>>>>Quoted material>>>>
this is a good link .. giving the innards of the prius
in remarkably simple diagrams and description
it is notable that there is no traditional gear box
or clutch arrangement
and even the approach to handling power to the
drive wheels at below 15 mph speeds is totally
different
chris explained his printing press but without
diagrams, it is a bit difficult to understand
strange that a very old printing press uses similar
principles to the prius drive train for working
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Lacy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/post?postID=HwR8qOlQ0_-RuvfANLAzlanUs4opJyeDCD_IfjyLsd0rte0OWBYB__C8kyCJuds7oA_WJLw)
>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/post?postID=ktCqR2AXXNM1l1dAo_WIRix3nNW8tcZibLH0CTkJl0tCOB5zfcNq7DmUSkLSmGu_Uh3sf9xqVzomh2U)
>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: Differential CVT ideas
> You should read about the Prius' "Power Split Device" that does
> something very similar using 2 electric motors and a set of planetary
> gears.
>
> _http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info_
(http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info)
>
> (and/or google search for "Power Split Device")
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been looking for 5 watt zener diodes and the most available one
out there seems to be the On Semiconductor 1N5342BG (6.8 volt, the 6.2
volt unit is also readily available.) This is a pretty small package
for 5 watts, only .130-.145 inch diameter. Is that large enough? Other
suppliers I should check out? (I've looked at Mouser, Digikey and
Newark.)
A 9/64 drill bit (.141 inch) won't fit into the cheap 10 ga. ring
terminals I have on hand (1/8th inch will easily.) I'm guessing I would
need to get some 8 ga. ring terminals, but I was wondering if anyone
who has built these has input before I order some better quality 8 and
10 gauge terminals. On this part of the assembly, is there a preferred
thermally conductive epoxy to use and method of getting it in there?
I was also wondering how the wire should be soldered to the ring
terminal. Should I drill little holes and push the lead through to
solder? It looks like a job for a powerful soldering iron - to bad my
old 250 watt iron burned out. I guess I'm also looking for a deal on a
new powerful iron, input appreciated.
For the bulb I'm eyeing the 43 bulb (such as Mouser part number
606-CM43) a 2.5 volt, 0.5 amp bulb with a socket available (Mouser
number 606-5100-822). My idea is to mount the bulbs in a group near
each block of batteries. The idea of adding a small resistor load looks
like a good idea. I have also been considering adding a red LED with 47
ohm resistor in series (that value for two 6.8v zeners) parallel across
each bulb as a kind of pay attention *now* point. I'm still
contemplating between using 2, 6.8v zener, a 6.2 and 6.8v zener, or 2,
6.2v zener and diode (Lee has suggested that could cause some thermal
issues.) Going over the numbers other list members have posted I'm a
bit concerned about using a 6.2 and 6.8 with Optima batteries because
their rested charged voltage is right at 13.2 volts.
I'm tossing my ideas out there for list members to criticize. I hope
learn from your knowledge and experience. I plan to do some more buggy
charging upgrades.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My guess is that you calculated 126 volts by multiplying the number of
cells in your pack by 1.75. How much voltage sag you can tolerate
depends on how well the battery cells are equalized. Serious battery
damage starts when the weaker cells in the pack get completely
discharged and reversed. Reading 126 on your voltmeter indicates
that cell voltages AVERAGE 1.75 volts per cell and provides no clue
about the weaker cells in the pack which may be close to zero volts or
even reversed. With no information about individual cell or battery volts,
you have to guess about how much sag is acceptable. 126 is probably
as good a guess as any.
To do a bit better than blind guessing, check regularly for weak or dying
batteries. A good way is to check voltages after a hard run and before
recharging. I think 126 is a prudent limit with well equalized batteries.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 2:21 PM
Subject: Sagging vs. discharge and cell reversal
Just a curious question-- not an issue I've had...
I've been careful not to drop below 126V with my 144v
pack under any circumstance, because I'd calculated
that that was the point that I'd be reversing cells.
A major contributor to the list wrote that if the
voltage drop is due to SAG, then you can drop below
that point, and not worry about reversing cells.
Soooo, what is that point then, for me, if it's not
126V? I mean, obviously, 84V is out of the question.
So are we talking "okay to 120, but only for short
lengths of time?"
Thanks,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
I have a GE Traction Volt Meter that is design for EV's. It is not a
standard panel type volt meter for other uses.
The normal load range for a 144V battery pack ranges from 136 volts and
above which shows up as a green GO bar.
The caution yellow bar reads out as 136 to 128 volts.
The red warning bar reads from 128 to 120 volts.
I have my controller program to readout a warning at 136 volts and stops the
operation of the controller at 128 volts.
So, this may give you a indication. Of course you can go wild and open it
wide open for maximum acceleration than this will reduce the life of the
batteries.
I am now going 5 years with my T-145's and plan to go to Jan 4 of 2012
before the next battery change.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: Sagging vs. discharge and cell reversal
> Just a curious question-- not an issue I've had...
>
> I've been careful not to drop below 126V with my 144v
> pack under any circumstance, because I'd calculated
> that that was the point that I'd be reversing cells.
>
> A major contributor to the list wrote that if the
> voltage drop is due to SAG, then you can drop below
> that point, and not worry about reversing cells.
> Soooo, what is that point then, for me, if it's not
> 126V? I mean, obviously, 84V is out of the question.
> So are we talking "okay to 120, but only for short
> lengths of time?"
>
> Thanks,
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Well, the guys at C&D Battery has finally rendered a verdict on my
Dynasty DCS-100L batteries. After first diagnosing the problem as
sulfated plates due to chronic under charging, they said:
Based on the provided charging and teardown evaluation, we conclude
that the batteries had been over charged at to high of voltage which
shortened their service life. The charging profile and descriptive
comments state the batteries were charged at voltages that averaged
at shutoff equal to 15.32 volts per unit or 2.55 v/c. We recommend
the recharge voltage be limited to 14.8 volts per unit or 2.47 v/c.
Batteries were overcharged/overheated No Credit Due
So much for a warranty and so much for me trying to do things the
right way. I was told, "Buy a really good charger and protect your
battery investment." Well, in 1999 the best charger I could afford
was a Zivan NG-5 with temp sensor for compensation. For years I kept
making excuses to keep running old used batteries, but finally last
December I bought brand new ones. I had the charger reprogrammed to
the new software revision in January and setup to match the
Dynasties. I was instructed not to use it with battery regulators
like Rudman Regs or equalizers like the PowerCheqs as they would
confuse the micro-processor and make the charger shut off too
soon. Now $1750 worth of batteries have lasted only 7 useable months
and probably only about 1000 miles. This is way more expensive than
buying gas, even if I drove a &^*%$ Hummer! I built the car to have
a nice EV as a daily driver, not a way to dispose of money. The NG-5
uses the new pulse charge algorithm that was supposed to increase
battery life, not decrease it.
So, where should I go from here? The EV is a Honda Civic conversion,
156 Volts, designed to hold thirteen group size 31 12 Volt
batteries. The four under the hood mount flat, but the rear nine are
on end. The charger, as I mentioned is a Zivan NG-5, which is
reprogramable, I think down to 144 Volts. Since the Auburn
controller and the 8" Advanced DC motor are at their upper limits,
going higher isn't an option. Originally the car was setup with 26
Delphi batteries from an EV1 and had the suspension and brakes
upgraded to carry 1144 pounds of batteries. One suggestion I
received was to strip out the Civic and convert a newer Civic with
more under hood space, and switch to eighteen 8 Volt flooded golf
cart batteries. Another was to switch to the Deka Dominator gel-cell
batteries like I used successfully in my Solectria Forces, and have
the NG-5 reset to match them as Zivan shows the factory charging
curves are available. The retailer that sold me the Dynasty
batteries has offered a replacement set at his cost, but after the
existing sets stellar success, I really don't feel that is a rational
option, even with the NG-5 cranked down to a lower finish voltage. I
am even half-tempted to strip the Civic, buy a 9" and convert a truck
with 156 Volts worth of 6 Volt floodies.
Has anyone used an NG-5 with gel-cells? Success?
Please give me some ideas here.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Tesla has reached the British screens on a large scale at long last...
_http://tinyurl.com/su2bt_ (http://www.tinyurl.com/su2bt) <Link to BBC
Tesla review
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I made up a set of 6.8's using Lee Hart's description - using large lugs (I
think they were described as being suitable for up to 2 gauge!) I put a group
of lugs in a vice, dropped some solder into each one, heated them with a torch
until the solder melted, then stuck the diode into the solder before it
solidified. After they cooled I filled with epoxy. After a while I felt that
dual 6.8's were too high voltage for my AGM's so I decided to replace one 6.8
with a 6.2 on each battery. I tried a different technique for the 6.2's. I
got a coil of 3/8 inch copper tubing, and cut it into 2" pieces. I flattened
the pieces about 90%, then put the diode in the tubing and "crimped" the wire
inside in a vice. I used a pair of pliers to bed the tubing around the body of
the diode, leaving the other wire coming out the end. I then drilled a hole in
the now flat tubing for the battery bolt, and voila. The 6.2's work fine, but
do get noticably hotter than the more massive 6.8's,
even though they should be handling slighty less wattage.
"Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've been looking for 5 watt zener diodes
and the most available one
out there seems to be the On Semiconductor 1N5342BG (6.8 volt, the 6.2
volt unit is also readily available.) This is a pretty small package
for 5 watts, only .130-.145 inch diameter. Is that large enough? Other
suppliers I should check out? (I've looked at Mouser, Digikey and
Newark.)
A 9/64 drill bit (.141 inch) won't fit into the cheap 10 ga. ring
terminals I have on hand (1/8th inch will easily.) I'm guessing I would
need to get some 8 ga. ring terminals, but I was wondering if anyone
who has built these has input before I order some better quality 8 and
10 gauge terminals. On this part of the assembly, is there a preferred
thermally conductive epoxy to use and method of getting it in there?
I was also wondering how the wire should be soldered to the ring
terminal. Should I drill little holes and push the lead through to
solder? It looks like a job for a powerful soldering iron - to bad my
old 250 watt iron burned out. I guess I'm also looking for a deal on a
new powerful iron, input appreciated.
For the bulb I'm eyeing the 43 bulb (such as Mouser part number
606-CM43) a 2.5 volt, 0.5 amp bulb with a socket available (Mouser
number 606-5100-822). My idea is to mount the bulbs in a group near
each block of batteries. The idea of adding a small resistor load looks
like a good idea. I have also been considering adding a red LED with 47
ohm resistor in series (that value for two 6.8v zeners) parallel across
each bulb as a kind of pay attention *now* point. I'm still
contemplating between using 2, 6.8v zener, a 6.2 and 6.8v zener, or 2,
6.2v zener and diode (Lee has suggested that could cause some thermal
issues.) Going over the numbers other list members have posted I'm a
bit concerned about using a 6.2 and 6.8 with Optima batteries because
their rested charged voltage is right at 13.2 volts.
I'm tossing my ideas out there for list members to criticize. I hope
learn from your knowledge and experience. I plan to do some more buggy
charging upgrades.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whether to use 2F1R or 1F2R has been debated for as long as 3 wheelers have
been built. It completely depends on the car's weight distribution and
design and either design can/is unstable if improperly done (same for some 4
wheel cars) and the 2F design is not inherently more stable nor inherently
capable of making turns more safely.
As 2 examples, the Freeway and Sparrow were both 2F. In EV design, the FW
was one of the most unstable designs made, because the weight was on the
rear (single) wheel. It didn't accelerate quickly, but could be upset,
starting from a dead stop, even in a standard intersection. (A 70' turn, at
18MPH would send it up on one front wheel, per a gov't study, and probably
not recover.) However moving the batts below the front seat (4' forward and
12-14" lower) made the car extremely stable in turns at any speed it was
capable of.
For carrying weight, the load must be placed on the double axle, especially
as it is carried high on the COG. In the real world, this can be shown by
the Reliant and the Bajaj. These rigs can carry up to 1/2 ton of load and
still remain fairly stable. (Considering this is approaching the weight of
the Bajaj, and weight is very high, that's not a bad thing.) The Reliant
vans were more stable when carrying a load than otherwise... provided the
load was strapped down. Place a load above the single axle and it'll do a
"Laugh-In" trike stunt.
There is the consideration of what happens if you do get in trouble, as in a
flat tire or lifting one of the wheels off the ground. With 2F, steering
geometry usually changes dramatically. W/ 1F, steering does change somewhat,
but the rig can be controlled except in certain extreme conditions. (Very
hard braking or going down a steep hill, ala 3 wheel dune rigs, comes to
mind.) It is very uncommon w/ 1F to lift a rear wheel in braking, *except*
going downhill or in a severe panic stop at speed.
But, in either case, the ideal is to find a system that isn't going to lift
a wheel. That can be seen when scaled down to bikes. The low rider racing
machines do very well in either configuration... but the "adult" bikes have
been known to dump their rider. It's all COG... keep the weight low and at
least 1/3 of the weight on each of the double axle tires.
----- Original Message -----
From: "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: 3 Wheelers stability issues
> i've been watching the discussion and the many viewpoints
>
> traditionally, tri-cycles were made for babies .. they were
> natural solution .. bi-cycles could not be driven by babies
> and kids .. so having 2 wheels at the rear seems good enough
> to make the vehicle stable .. naturally, the one wheel in the
> front was being used to steer .. and that design was okay
> for the tricycle too
>
> the 'natural' extension of this design to 3 wheeler scooters,
> vans, etc is understandable .. just scale up the size and add
> and engine .. etc
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--- Begin Message ---
I purchased from Digikey:
20 5w 6.2v zeners, 20 5w6.8v zeners, 12 10ohm .5w resistors and 30 6awg
connectors at a cost of $52.53. I made up and tried out 2 regulators. Need
tubing and potting compound. Anybody make me an offer on the parts? I went to
8v flooded and can't use them.
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 9:30:44 PM
Subject: Re: Zener regs revisited
I made up a set of 6.8's using Lee Hart's description - using large lugs (I
think they were described as being suitable for up to 2 gauge!) I put a group
of lugs in a vice, dropped some solder into each one, heated them with a torch
until the solder melted, then stuck the diode into the solder before it
solidified. After they cooled I filled with epoxy. After a while I felt that
dual 6.8's were too high voltage for my AGM's so I decided to replace one 6.8
with a 6.2 on each battery. I tried a different technique for the 6.2's. I
got a coil of 3/8 inch copper tubing, and cut it into 2" pieces. I flattened
the pieces about 90%, then put the diode in the tubing and "crimped" the wire
inside in a vice. I used a pair of pliers to bed the tubing around the body of
the diode, leaving the other wire coming out the end. I then drilled a hole in
the now flat tubing for the battery bolt, and voila. The 6.2's work fine, but
do get noticably hotter than the more massive 6.8's,
even though they should be handling slighty less wattage.
"Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've been looking for 5 watt zener diodes
and the most available one
out there seems to be the On Semiconductor 1N5342BG (6.8 volt, the 6.2
volt unit is also readily available.) This is a pretty small package
for 5 watts, only .130-.145 inch diameter. Is that large enough? Other
suppliers I should check out? (I've looked at Mouser, Digikey and
Newark.)
A 9/64 drill bit (.141 inch) won't fit into the cheap 10 ga. ring
terminals I have on hand (1/8th inch will easily.) I'm guessing I would
need to get some 8 ga. ring terminals, but I was wondering if anyone
who has built these has input before I order some better quality 8 and
10 gauge terminals. On this part of the assembly, is there a preferred
thermally conductive epoxy to use and method of getting it in there?
I was also wondering how the wire should be soldered to the ring
terminal. Should I drill little holes and push the lead through to
solder? It looks like a job for a powerful soldering iron - to bad my
old 250 watt iron burned out. I guess I'm also looking for a deal on a
new powerful iron, input appreciated.
For the bulb I'm eyeing the 43 bulb (such as Mouser part number
606-CM43) a 2.5 volt, 0.5 amp bulb with a socket available (Mouser
number 606-5100-822). My idea is to mount the bulbs in a group near
each block of batteries. The idea of adding a small resistor load looks
like a good idea. I have also been considering adding a red LED with 47
ohm resistor in series (that value for two 6.8v zeners) parallel across
each bulb as a kind of pay attention *now* point. I'm still
contemplating between using 2, 6.8v zener, a 6.2 and 6.8v zener, or 2,
6.2v zener and diode (Lee has suggested that could cause some thermal
issues.) Going over the numbers other list members have posted I'm a
bit concerned about using a 6.2 and 6.8 with Optima batteries because
their rested charged voltage is right at 13.2 volts.
I'm tossing my ideas out there for list members to criticize. I hope
learn from your knowledge and experience. I plan to do some more buggy
charging upgrades.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Great presentation on Saturday Bill! Thanks for the sample cell!
It occured to me that the altitude in Denver might help your ET due to
higher altitude?
The next time I get back in Denver to see the family I'll invite
myself over for a tour of your Batt-Cave ;)
Lots of luck in '07. It will be nice to see that official record hit
the 8's next year!
C'ya,
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Just drop by the track when I race the KillaCycle, if you want a demo
> of A123 Systems cells in a large scale EV pack getting fast charged. :-)
>
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 02:11 PM 12/17/2006, you wrote:
> >EEStor :) Dont ask which corner though ..
> >If AltairNano and Phoenix would demo their fast charge capability on
> >large-scale app like EV, i'd be impressed as well.
> >
> >-kert
> >
> >On 12/17/06, Adan Vielma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>What "Great New Battery" is around the corner?
> >>-Adan
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 11:06 AM
> >>Subject: A123 EV pack (was Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence
Group buy)
> >>
> >>
> >> > Bryan,
> >> >
> >> > if you are not in a hurry, you may want to consider A123s. This
is a
> >> > respond I got from them:
> >> >
> >> > "We're working on several standard modules that potentially may be
> >> > applicable; however I can't project their availability at this
point.
> >> > I believe there is a good opportunity that either A123, or one
of our
> >> > partners, will have a pack suitable for use in EVs sometime in
2007.
> >> > Sorry I can't be more specific. I think we'll be in a better
position
> >> > to forecast new products in the next few months."
> >> >
> >> > But of course there is always the Great New Battery just around the
> >> > corner..
> >> >
> >> > Terveisin, Osmo
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Bryan kirjoitti 16.12.2006 kello 2.01:
> >> >
> >> >> Don,
> >> >> I've been considering the Valence batteries for a while, but
> >> >> have been away from the EV list for a while. After reading
through
> >> >> all the archived posts regarding a possible Valence group buy and
> >> >> doing the math, I am seriously considering a pack of 27 of the
40Ah
> >> >> U1-12XP if we could get the 50+ quantity price or better yet the
> >> >> 250 or 1000+ price break. From the EV list posts, however, I
could
> >> >> not tell whether anyone has actually begun compiling a list to
> >> >> actually organize the group buy. It looks like you have been
> >> >> dealing with Valence a fair amount. Have you started a list?
> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >> Bryan Avery
> >> >>
> >>
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
You might wish to check Yahoogroups. They have a group that covers the
Xebra. It's mostly "what if" but there are some owners who have good data.
As with most groups, it's probably more folks with problems than one might
see in the real world. From what I read there and on other sources...
The speedo appears to be off by 10% (or perhaps a bit more) so the car,
apparently, isn't actually doing over 40MPH. 35 seems to be what's being
reported, when accurately measured. Several folks reported they were getting
around 15 miles to the charge. I couldn't sort out whether this was due to
excessive hills, if they'd damaged their pack, or that this is the expected
range as cold weather was coming on. I suspect a combination of the 3.
As with any newly introduced rig, some have had some moderate problems.
(Well, severe to someone who doesn't know about repairing EVs... probably
not much to the average person here.) DC/DC converters seem to be the main
problem mentioned. As I was following it, this may have been caused (on 2
rigs) by a poorly designed fuse panel. As I understood the conversation, the
fuses are wound around a center core (fuse wire) and these didn't make good
contact with the fuse clips.
There's also a problem when sitting under a red light. For taller folks,
even when approaching one. It appears the tinted glass (at the top of the
windshield) filters out red. So, as you approach, if the light doesn't show
any color, it's best that you duck your head, or assume the light is red.
>From what I've seen of them (visiting both the I-net and the dealership in
Salem, OR) they aren't quite ready for their prime audience... the novice
driver. However, I found them more desirable than most production EVs that
have been available to the public... locally. They've received some bad
press, but mostly due to dealer's who don't know better than to send out a
poorly charged vehicle, and then letting it be driven beyond its capacity.
(At least that's how I read the stories.) They are also being sold beyond
the range of dealers who have knowledge of how to repair an EV. Fortunately,
they are of a technology that's not beyond a knowledgeable golf cart
mechanic who's capable and willing to learn about this unique vehicle.
...just my take... your mileage will vary.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Long" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: Zap Xebra
> Does anyone here have one? If so, how reliable do you think it will be?
>From what I read in this site's archives, the vehicles have been in
production for around six months. If anyone has one, what is it's practical
range? The manufacture says 40 miles, but I figure it probably has a
practical range of around 20 on level terrain.
> Thanks,
> Lawrence
> of Glendale, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used a small butane torch on the connectors and held the diodes in my hand.
This guarantees you won't overheat them. I soldered them to the outside of the
connectors rather than inserting them inside.
"Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've been looking for 5 watt zener diodes
and the most available one
out there seems to be the On Semiconductor 1N5342BG (6.8 volt, the 6.2
volt unit is also readily available.) This is a pretty small package
for 5 watts, only .130-.145 inch diameter. Is that large enough? Other
suppliers I should check out? (I've looked at Mouser, Digikey and
Newark.)
A 9/64 drill bit (.141 inch) won't fit into the cheap 10 ga. ring
terminals I have on hand (1/8th inch will easily.) I'm guessing I would
need to get some 8 ga. ring terminals, but I was wondering if anyone
who has built these has input before I order some better quality 8 and
10 gauge terminals. On this part of the assembly, is there a preferred
thermally conductive epoxy to use and method of getting it in there?
I was also wondering how the wire should be soldered to the ring
terminal. Should I drill little holes and push the lead through to
solder? It looks like a job for a powerful soldering iron - to bad my
old 250 watt iron burned out. I guess I'm also looking for a deal on a
new powerful iron, input appreciated.
For the bulb I'm eyeing the 43 bulb (such as Mouser part number
606-CM43) a 2.5 volt, 0.5 amp bulb with a socket available (Mouser
number 606-5100-822). My idea is to mount the bulbs in a group near
each block of batteries. The idea of adding a small resistor load looks
like a good idea. I have also been considering adding a red LED with 47
ohm resistor in series (that value for two 6.8v zeners) parallel across
each bulb as a kind of pay attention *now* point. I'm still
contemplating between using 2, 6.8v zener, a 6.2 and 6.8v zener, or 2,
6.2v zener and diode (Lee has suggested that could cause some thermal
issues.) Going over the numbers other list members have posted I'm a
bit concerned about using a 6.2 and 6.8 with Optima batteries because
their rested charged voltage is right at 13.2 volts.
I'm tossing my ideas out there for list members to criticize. I hope
learn from your knowledge and experience. I plan to do some more buggy
charging upgrades.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's probably a 120 min reserve capacity, lots of noobs confuse reserve
capacity with Ah capacity.
>
> Just reading the information here this does not look right. I have not
> seen
> any lead acid 120Ah batteries rated at the C-20 rate that weigh 57
> pounds. Is
> this a C-100 rating?
>
> Don
>
>
> In a message dated 12/17/2006 4:36:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> If they are marine batteries, that rating is at a 20 Amp discharge rate.
> At
> 400 A, the cycle life and capacity will be very poor. That's if they are
> what I think they are.
>
> Steve
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Check out Walmart for EverStart part number MAXX-29, 120 AH 12 volt
> marine
> battery that weighs 57 lbs for 64.96 this is the cheap battery I am going
> to
> use in my VW Bug for now.
> They are a little heavy but with that amount of amp hours I should have a
> very long range in a light car.
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Steven Lough wrote:
I am surprised, no one has chimed in from the North West (WA. OR.)
about the Thursday night/Friday morning Wind Storm... Worst in over a
decade. Preceeded by a rain squal...
Waiting to hear stories about Generators saving the day, DC-AC Inverters
Got to be some good EV stories out there...
Steve, it was indeed, quite a storm! The north Oregon coast got hammered
with hurricane force 100+ mph winds (Mt. Hebo in the coast range had 114
mph winds) but in the Portland metro area the wind peaks were just under
70 mph...not too horrible. It was really sad that the winds were also
howling at 90 mph high up on Mt. Hood with it's single digit temps,
preventing the rescue of the stranded climbers :-(
I was ready with all sorts of backup battery-inverter power, but alas,
our lights only flickered on - off - on a few times, but we never truly
lost power. As I said, I was soooo ready though!
I had made sure the night before when the high wind forecast was a sure
thing, to get all my battery power fully charged up. The 360V, 26 ahr
pack in White Zombie was freshly topped off. So was the 36V, 6 Orbital
pack in the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor who's on-board 13.5V DC-DC
converter can run a small 12 vdc to 120 vac inverter. So was a bank of
four Trojan T145s in the EV shop. So were countless single 12V batteries
here and there. So was the 576 lbs. of Trojan T145s in my work service
truck (8 of them) for 1040 ahrs of 12V power that powers-up the 2000
watt inverter on board. In addition to that inverter, I also had three
smaller 300-400 watt inverters each connected to their own 12V, 26 ahr
AGM batteries and already strategicly placed in the house, so that when
the power went out, I could quickly get key lamps in the house lit back
up. These lamps are already equipped with efficient fluorescent bulbs
that draw 15 watts while outputting light more comparable to 100 watt
incandescent types. At about an amp and a half from the 12V source, the
lamps would stay nice and bright for at least 10 continuous hours.
I also had an extension cord leading from the big inverter of the
service truck to the house. In addition to all this, I also had my
killer rechargeable flashlights all fully charged, too. For long periods
without power, I also had the Zombie's gasoline fueled 10kw genset ready
to go, plus the 7 kw genset/welder of the service truck as well. You
might say, I 'was' well prepared in the area of emergency AC power!
But as I said, the power simply stayed on :-(
See Ya....John Wayland
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