EV Digest 6241
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Batt Balancer v Zener Regs: was Zener regs revisited
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Zener regs revisited
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: How do I finish off charging flooded PbA cells ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Regulators on floodies
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: NmG dealership in Texas! was RE: Zebra Purchase Warning
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: I need to fix my EV.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Zener regs revisited
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 180 V charger
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Excited about Excitation
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Maximum grip lowest rolling resistance?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 180 V charger
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Possible to series wire controllers?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Changing Batteries 1 of 3
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Changing Batteries 3 of 3
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Changing Batteries 2.1 of 3
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Regulators on floodies
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Changing Batteries 2.2 of 3
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Balancing, was: Changing Batteries 2.2 of 3
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Wierd list events, was: Re: NmG dealership in Texas! was RE: Zebra
Purchase Warning
by "brougham Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Maximum grip lowest rolling resistance?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) How big is this motor?
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) What Santa almost got me
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV digest 6240
by "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Reinkens, Kirk wrote:
Lee,
Thank you very much! That is about what I expected. It seems that the shunt regulators
might be a good starting point for a beginner. If one is willing sacrifice some
efficiency you could protect your 1st pack while "learning" a little more about
how the batteries can vary in real-world use. Of course, you have to actually watch the
pack charge to learn those lessons. If I start with a well balanced pack, I might get
quite an education before stepping up to the charge shuttling and montoring which are
certainly great things.
Do you think that is reasonable?
Sure! That's a perfectly reasonable strategy.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[soldering the zener] is fine if you do it fairly quickly. That
takes a big soldering iron.
Paul G. wrote:
What is "big" in this situation? I'm am looking at a 80 watt iron
with a 3/8 flat tip.
"Big" means whatever it takes to complete the connection is 10 seconds
or less. I have a 47 watt soldering iron that does it. A 150 watt
soldering gun won't do it. The solder pot is the easiest (just a few
seconds).
On that note, I could use a brief tutorial on solder alloys and flux
choices. Perhaps there is a worthy web site I should visit or book I
should read? My Rat shack roll is 60/40 rosin core 0.05 inch diameter. I
notice that 63/37 has a slightly lower melting temp and more brief
"plastic" stage (and both are readily available.) I understand almost
nothing about flux choice right now except that RA (mildly activated
Rosin) seems to be most common for electronics (and that there are many
choices.)
It's a very rich field, with lots of options and subtleties. Plus, it's
all changing fast, as they try to replace lead-based solders with
various alternatives.
Your best bet is to do some online reading, and to get some data from
the various solder and flux makers. They have a much better handle on this.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I understand the idea... bulk charging to 80% whatever condition
the battery is in... then a slower charge rate to finish with.
Does this finish charge absolutely need to be a constant current
or a constant voltage cycle? Or could I pulse switch my charger?
Lead-acids are fairly tolerant of how you charge them, as long as you
avoid too high a peak voltage. Think of it like filling a bucket with a
garden hose. When the bucket is mostly empty, you can squirt in the
water almost as fast as you like, and it won't splash out. But as it
approaches "full", you have slow down and be more careful, or you'll
make a mess. The best plan is to slow down as you approach full, and
"sneak up" to 100% with a very slow trickle.
For example, is it permissible to charge at 40A for 1 second and
then have no charge for the next three seconds?
What would happen if hit that bucket with a fire hose for 1 second, and
then allowed several seconds for the water to calm down before hitting
it again? You'd splash water all over the place!
Same with a battery. The high peak current will drive the voltage well
past the gassing point even if applied for 1 second. Some chargers get
away with "pulse charging" by using extremely brief pulses, like a
single half-cycle of the AC line (16-20 msec).
I am looking into balancing and seeing how important it is.
I've found the following document to be of great use, and although
it is mainly about Li-Ion pack maintenance I am sure the techniques
would work equally as well for other cell types, some of the time
at least (!)
The generalities still apply, though the details differ.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's an interesting one:
Obviously floodies are a bit more abuse tolerant. But
are there benefits to using regulators on them? It
seems to me that this would be difficult, as their top
charge voltage decreases with age. Still it seems,
other batteries integrate BMS to increase longevity.
Certainly there must be something that we can do for
floodeds, seeing as they too, are a pain in the
neck...
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Dec 2006 at 9:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> just found that if I included any reference to the October
> announcement, it would not go through.
I don't know the reason for this. There is no moderation or censorship on
this list. Normally, the list simply retransmits every message.
However, there is some spam filtering. It's not at all uncommon for
messages to be delayed if something causes the filter to flag them. That's
about all I know of its operation, sorry.
I've passed this info on to the SJSU support crew, but at this time of the
year I don't expect a prompt response. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 3 months or 90 days were at shallow discharges ~25% So I am gonna
call that 23 cycles
5 months @80% are 150 so 175 cycles, but...I do have balancing so I
should get ???
How many cycles can I get out of orbitals? I thought they would be good
for a few years.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> >Paul G. wrote:
> > On a related note, I like the way the wire was soldered to the top of
> > the terminal. However, I would think the heat of soldering would damage
> > the zener if it had a snug fit inside the ring terminal.
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> It's fine if you do it fairly quickly. That takes a big soldering iron.
>
I did the first one with a 60W iron and it was barely something I'd be proud
to take a picture of. The rest (pictured) were done with a 500W soldering gun
just to be sure.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm **really** not good with the fixed font ASCII art but if I'm reading this
right I don't think it will work. You definitely need a transfomer to boost
your voltage high enough to charge a 180 volt pack. The Bonn inductor just
limits current - it won't boost your voltage. You could use this design:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/badboy.gif
Lee (or maybe David Roden) has recommend using a fan speed controller instead
of a light dimmer, although the dimmer worked fine for me wth my 156 volt bad
boy - but for a 180 volt charger you're going to be pushing your transformer
harder. The dimmer or fan speed controller is necessary to "fine tune" the
voltage and adjust for line voltage fluctuations, extension cords, etc. If you
can find a transfomer with a tap that would drop your voltage by about 15 volts
you could switch between the taps for bulk and float - that's all you need.
Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi all,
I've come up with a charger for my 180 V system. It is a cross of a bad boy and
Lee's Bonn charger. I think my logic is right, but just to be sure, I'm asking
for feedback on how I can improve it.
Since my system is 180 v, a regular 120 v bad boy won't work. What I have done
is parallel a regular 120 v bad boy charger and the concept and values of Lee's
Bonn charger. A 120 bad boy with just a rectifier puts out 168v max so to get
up to my 180 v for float/charge/equalize, I need 30, 53 and 66 more volts. I've
paralleled Lee's Bonn Inductor (which may become a Transformer) to get the
required voltage. I may add more taps for the ability to charge packs with less
voltage to give me more flexibility.
Here is an ASCII schematic, as usual view it with a fixed font.... It is too
long for this email so I cut it in half.
___ D1
S1 | | S2 ____
Hot____/____| G |__/_____________o__ _|AC +|__________o_____
| | | | | | | |
120vac Neutral_____| F | C1_|_ | | | | | CONT -
| | --- Fan | | | |
Gnd_________| I |____|____|__o___|____|AC -|_______o__|_____
_|_ |___| | | |____| | |
/// | |- - - - | |
| | | | | |
| 30 53 66 | |
| o o o D2 | |
| \ ____ | |
| L1 o____|AC +|__|__|
| | | |
|_____________| |__o
|AC -|
|____|
Fuse _
____/\ ________________________________| |
\/ __|__ |+|
CONT - |Volts| | |Anderson
|150 -| | | Plug
| 250| | |
____ |_____| | |
_______|AMPS|________________|__________|-|
|0-15| |_|
|____|
S1 is a 15 amp breaker to turn everything off
S2 is a 240vac 20amp 0-12 hour mechanical timer. Can be set to maximum charging
time to automatically shut off when done.
C1 is a 5-10uf 220vac or more motor run capacitor.
D1 and D2 are bridge rectifiers, 400V 35 amp min.
L1 is the Inductor, or it may become a transformer that has taps which will
give me the values, 20v, 53v and 66v that I need.
The switch for the different voltages is a toggle switch, 120vac 15amp minimum
with at least 3 positions, maybe more depending on my inductor/transformer taps
(for more flexibility)
Fuse is a 250vdc 15 amp fuse.
Amp meter will read 0-15 amps
Volt meter will read 150-250 volts.
And lastly an Anderson connector.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> The problem is, that in order to do regen you need to spin the motor
>> faster than it wants to go at a given voltage.
>
> Not quite. Spinning a series motor faster just makes its current drop;
> it doesn't become a generator.
Sorry, I ment to say "In order to do regen with most motors", I left the
'most' out. My point was that this doesn't work with series wound motors.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, I believe you are both appoaching the problem from different
directions.
>From what I understand, to optimize RR you want a contact patch that is
about the same length and width.
Bicycle tires tend to have long narrow contact patches, so wider tires
have lower RR.
On the other hand, the low profile and wide car tires, that are popular
now, tend to have a short and wide contact patch, so using narrower tires
is better.
>>The width of the tire (not the contact patch) and air pressure determines
>>most of the rolling resistance.
>>
>>So the more narrow the wheel generally the less resistance but the
>> profile
>>should be square to the road.
>
> Hi, GW
>
> Can you tell me why you think this is so ( that narrower tires have lower
> RR)? Other people here have said that also, but I'm looking for some
> technical justification or reliable reference.
>
> For bicycle tires ( I ride a recumbent, and recumbent riders, in general,
> are quite concerned with tire RR) most everyone believes that, for a given
> tire pressure, wider tires have lower rolling resistance. I wonder if
> (and
> why) it might be different for car tires.
>
> Thanks
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! MSN Shopping
> Sales & Deals
> http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops - I meant to add - you'll need a transformer that's 115-120 to about 42-45
volts to boost your voltage. A standard "36 volt" golf cart charger should
have a transformer that's about right. You need to wire the transformer
secondary windings in series with the line voltage to make it work. Wire it
one way and it lowers the voltage, the other way it boosts.
Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm **really** not good with the fixed
font ASCII art but if I'm reading this right I don't think it will work. You
definitely need a transfomer to boost your voltage high enough to charge a 180
volt pack. The Bonn inductor just limits current - it won't boost your
voltage. You could use this design:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/badboy.gif
Lee (or maybe David Roden) has recommend using a fan speed controller instead
of a light dimmer, although the dimmer worked fine for me wth my 156 volt bad
boy - but for a 180 volt charger you're going to be pushing your transformer
harder. The dimmer or fan speed controller is necessary to "fine tune" the
voltage and adjust for line voltage fluctuations, extension cords, etc. If you
can find a transfomer with a tap that would drop your voltage by about 15 volts
you could switch between the taps for bulk and float - that's all you need.
Rush wrote: Hi all,
I've come up with a charger for my 180 V system. It is a cross of a bad boy and
Lee's Bonn charger. I think my logic is right, but just to be sure, I'm asking
for feedback on how I can improve it.
Since my system is 180 v, a regular 120 v bad boy won't work. What I have done
is parallel a regular 120 v bad boy charger and the concept and values of Lee's
Bonn charger. A 120 bad boy with just a rectifier puts out 168v max so to get
up to my 180 v for float/charge/equalize, I need 30, 53 and 66 more volts. I've
paralleled Lee's Bonn Inductor (which may become a Transformer) to get the
required voltage. I may add more taps for the ability to charge packs with less
voltage to give me more flexibility.
Here is an ASCII schematic, as usual view it with a fixed font.... It is too
long for this email so I cut it in half.
___ D1
S1 | | S2 ____
Hot____/____| G |__/_____________o__ _|AC +|__________o_____
| | | | | | | |
120vac Neutral_____| F | C1_|_ | | | | | CONT -
| | --- Fan | | | |
Gnd_________| I |____|____|__o___|____|AC -|_______o__|_____
_|_ |___| | | |____| | |
/// | |- - - - | |
| | | | | |
| 30 53 66 | |
| o o o D2 | |
| \ ____ | |
| L1 o____|AC +|__|__|
| | | |
|_____________| |__o
|AC -|
|____|
Fuse _
____/\ ________________________________| |
\/ __|__ |+|
CONT - |Volts| | |Anderson
|150 -| | | Plug
| 250| | |
____ |_____| | |
_______|AMPS|________________|__________|-|
|0-15| |_|
|____|
S1 is a 15 amp breaker to turn everything off
S2 is a 240vac 20amp 0-12 hour mechanical timer. Can be set to maximum charging
time to automatically shut off when done.
C1 is a 5-10uf 220vac or more motor run capacitor.
D1 and D2 are bridge rectifiers, 400V 35 amp min.
L1 is the Inductor, or it may become a transformer that has taps which will
give me the values, 20v, 53v and 66v that I need.
The switch for the different voltages is a toggle switch, 120vac 15amp minimum
with at least 3 positions, maybe more depending on my inductor/transformer taps
(for more flexibility)
Fuse is a 250vdc 15 amp fuse.
Amp meter will read 0-15 amps
Volt meter will read 150-250 volts.
And lastly an Anderson connector.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:29 PM 23/12/06 -0500, Garret wrote:
Hi,
Looking for a 96 volt controller for a motorcycle there aren't too many
options.
48v parts are plentiful. Is it possible to hook up 2 controllers in
series? I know you can will most battery chargers, not sure if it held
for PWM controllers too.
No, you can't series connect them due to the way they are made. There are
plenty of controllers made, but not many brands or models, and very few
secondhand. So if you can't/won't afford a new controller, then the options
are very limited.
If you can find a GE EV1 SCR controller in almost any voltage, I understand
you can get control boards that convert them to other voltages. SCR
controllers are very efficient, but they draw current in big pulses from
the battery, making the batteries much less efficient at delivering power
and reducing range.
There is at least one, maybe two organisations upgrading Curtis controllers
to higher voltages and currents, but comments made on-list imply that they
are overloaded with work and take a long time to turnaround an upgrade. In
addition, it is only possible to "stretch" an upgrade so far, I've been
looking at this carefully over the last few weeks and it would seem that a
reliable upgrade is likely to be a 50% improvement in voltage or current,
but not both. So a 48V controller may be able to be converted by the use of
higher voltage/higher efficiency components to 72V at the same amps, but to
go to 96V would probably mean a 25% drop in current capacity, and so-on.
But I could be significantly wrong, this is only my assessment by looking
at certain MOSFets and capacitors, without knowing the actual device parts
used in lower voltage Curtis controllers (an estimate based on stated
voltage drop and current ratings).
There is a workaround using one 48V controller, used in a system that goes
to 96 volts, saved from an earlier post of Lee Hart:
=============================
Jack Murray wrote:
> Between M- and B- will be 96v, which is where the FETs are, so they will
see the full voltage and blow up if only rated for 48v.
Lee Hart responded:
No, this is not the case. This schematic assumes a Curtis controller, which
has its transistors and diodes wired as shown:
_____________________________________
| | _|_
__|__ + | / \ armature
___ 48v / S1b \___/
| - | _________ | series
|____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
| S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
| | | D1 /_\ | _| field
| __|__ + | |___|_____|
/ S1a ___ 48v | |_| |M-
| | - | -||_ Q1 |
| | | | | |
|__________|____________|_____| | Controller
B-|_________|
With S1a and S1b open, and S2 closed, the two 48v batteries are wired in
series for 96v. When MOSFET transistor Q1 is on, M- is at 0v, B+ is at 48v,
and the top terminal of the armature is at 96v. When Q1 turns off, M- only
goes up to 48v because D1 conducts, clamping it at B+ = 48v. So, the
controller never sees more than 48v no matter what, while the voltage
across the motor cycles between 96v and 48v.
On Tue, Jan 29 2002, Lee Hart wrote:
If I really felt inclined to do this (and had a controller I was willing to
sacrifice to the gods of experimentation :-) I would try something like
this: View with fixed width font:
___________________________________
| | _|_
__|__ + | / \ armature
___ 48v / S1b \___/
| - | _______ | series
|____/_____|____________| | |_ motor
| S2 | |B+ | _|
| __|__ + | | _| field
/ S1a ___ 48v | M-|_____|
| | - | |
|__________|____________|B- | Controller
|_______|
With S2 open, and S1a and S1b closed, you have two 48v batteries in
parallel driving a 48v controller and series motor in a completely normal
fashion. The controller adjusts effective motor voltage from 0-48v.
With S1a and S1b open, and S2 closed, the two 48v batteries are wired in
series for 96v. But the controller still only sees 48v between its B+ and
B- terminals. The controller still adjusts the effective voltage at M- from
0-48v. But since the top connection to the motor is 48v higher, the motor
sees 48-96v.
Thus you have two ranges; 0-48v, and 48-96v. Note that the controller's
current limit won't work in the 96v range. That's because even if the
controller is fully off, the motor is still connected to the upper 48v
battery through the controller's freewheel diode (between M- and B+). Thus,
you must not use the 96v range unless motor current is below the
controller's current limit.
In operation, you accelerate at 48v until the controller comes out of
current limit, release the throttle, switch to 96v, then re-apply the
throttle. If you're in the 96v range and start climbing a hill, you must
switch back to the 48v range before the motor current rises above the
controller's current limit.
Another quirk of this circuit is that the batteries are unequally
discharged in the 96v position; the upper battery always carries motor
current, while the lower one carries motor current x controller % duty
cycle. But the batteries will re-balance during the time spent in the 48v
position.
--
===============
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll try segmenting it up and see if maybe it was too long, or which section
has the words the spam filter is picking up. This is
the 11th time to try something different since 6Dec06.
1 of 3
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Willmon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re-Conversion of the Electrabishi
Hi all, been a while since I posted last. I've been dealing with the 6 month
degradation of my Deka AGM's after 2600 miles.
While not dead there are 3-4 of the 16 that have been stinking out on me.
Running a small equalazition on each individually seems
to bring them back a bit then I notice a couple other starting to dip down.
Equalizing each is really a maintenance headache and one that seems to take
some time. So not wanting to deal with that headache
and not wanting to kill the batteries totally I decided to swap them for 120V
worth of Crown CR-225 6V batteries. I've been
breaking them in over the last few days and they seem to be coming right up.
Electrabishi is now a tame, mild mannered commuter.
I had posted on my website 0-60 mph times with my Zilla set to 120V motor
voltage and lower currents. It will be interesting in
time to see when I pull the same readings with an actual 120V pack. The new
pack weighs in ~180 lbs more than the 16 Group 31's
but I anticipate slightly better range with the 6V flooded batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2 of 3
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Willmon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re-Conversion of the Electrabishi
So disposition of the Dekas? There's a guy with a remote cabin that will buy
the stinkers at a salvage price and I'll probably
keep the best 10 and drop into my Pinto project for starters until I can get it
built up like I want for racing. The PowerCheqs?
I don't mind keeping them as I may wind up putting the Deka's into a back-up
power system I'm working on for the house. However if
anyone wants to try them out at a reduced price you can contact me off list and
make an offer. I have 15 of them and they are all
clean and work according to specification.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2.1 of 3
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Willmon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re-Conversion of the Electrabishi
I was succesful however, in burning off the old tires that came with the rig
(which is no doubt the reason the AGM pack got so out
of line). I chalk it up to inexperience with cycling batteries and the fact
that the Deka's aren't really a cycling battery. It
is a "Deep Cycle" battery (or Dual Prupose as claimed by the manufacturer), but
now I know the difference between that and a
"Cycling" battery, I hope. I mean I knew, but I didn't want the first
conversion to be slow. Now in the daily commute mode it
doesn't bother me.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
Regulators on Flooded batteries have limited value,
and most people choose floodeds because they are
the cheapest battery, besides being abuse tolerant.
This means that not many will add regs to floodeds,
as there is limited gain from the investment and
hassle. Besides, the leaking electrolyte can damage
the regs easily.
Note that flooded batteries NEED to be gassed
vigorously from time to time, to stir up the
electrolyte, so the regulators must allow you to
exceed their regulation by a fair amount during
this process of gassing, the equalization part of
the equation can be taken care of by the regs.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Regulators on floodies
Here's an interesting one:
Obviously floodies are a bit more abuse tolerant. But
are there benefits to using regulators on them? It
seems to me that this would be difficult, as their top
charge voltage decreases with age. Still it seems,
other batteries integrate BMS to increase longevity.
Certainly there must be something that we can do for
floodeds, seeing as they too, are a pain in the
neck...
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2.2 of 3
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Willmon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re-Conversion of the Electrabishi
Another note I will make about the power cheq balancers, as Lee Hart ha(s)
explained several times on this list, they are not
really up to the task of continuosly balancing 100AH batteries. They barely
seemed to add 2AH per charge to the low batteries.
And the biggest problem is that they only share between adjacent batteries.
Several times it got to where there was a gradient
with the lowest batteries either in the center of the pack or out at the edges.
Voltages of the batteries at the Bulk /
Acceptance threshold could vary by almost 1V as their voltage started rapidly
to rise. This is bad for the batteries that cross
that line first because their voltage rises faster and would typically approach
15V while the voltage on the low ones would
actually start to drop, or at least cease to rise once the charger hit the
regulation voltage. I would manually chase this
gradient around by strategically placing my two 12V automotive chargers on the
selected lowest batteries. But like I said, this
is a tedious and slow process that would only get worse as the pack ages. Now
with the floodies I can at least perform string
equalization without fear of cooking the hot ones. Now I just have to water
and keep the box clean.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the subject of balancing and regulators:
I decided to design 1/2 Amp regulators when I measured
that they will raise the temp of the battery terminal
to which they are bolted quite a good amount when
sinking 7 Watts into it, I did not want to push my luck
with trying to shunt 15 or 30 Watts away.
I do not think that it is necessary though, as I have
observed that AGM batteries will stay in balance within 1%
as I have done 5000 miles before I started having a problem
with with my unregulated batteries. When aging, the
balancing may become more necessary, but the only thing
you need to do to make regulators create a larger amount of
balancing is charge for a longer time.
THe key is that as soon as the first battery hits its
regulation voltage, the charger should back off to avoid
gassing the AGM batteries.
Say it goes from 10A to 2A charging current - with the 1/2A
regulator the battery still gets 1.5A, so it will be mildly
overcharged, though this level of current should not be a
problem to recombine unless you have very small batteries
(I think in the 100Ah range, so they should be able to take
the 1.5A overcharge without much venting).
The charging should continue until the last battery hits
the reg voltage, no matter if this takes 1 hour or 30 hours.
Only the first time should it take very long, every next
charge you would expect that all batteries come to the
reg voltage within say an hour of each other.
If the batteries are not too unbalanced (same age, temp
and types) then you expect that the regs bring them to
the same level at max state of charge, so they will
finish charging at more or less the same time, or so is
the theory.
If batteries for whatevery reason are 1% out of balance
during every recharge, then the regs will need 1 hour to
shunt 0.5Ah away whan putting 50 Ah back into the pack
(so, instead of 5h plus finish charging, another hour
is necessary to make the last battery catch up).
Only Lee's battery balancer which constantly recharges the
weakest battery brings batteries to the same level at any
state of charge.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Changing Batteries 2.2 of 3
2.2 of 3
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Willmon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re-Conversion of the Electrabishi
Another note I will make about the power cheq balancers, as Lee Hart ha(s)
explained several times on this list, they are not
really up to the task of continuosly balancing 100AH batteries. They barely
seemed to add 2AH per charge to the low batteries.
And the biggest problem is that they only share between adjacent batteries.
Several times it got to where there was a gradient
with the lowest batteries either in the center of the pack or out at the
edges. Voltages of the batteries at the Bulk /
Acceptance threshold could vary by almost 1V as their voltage started
rapidly to rise. This is bad for the batteries that cross
that line first because their voltage rises faster and would typically
approach 15V while the voltage on the low ones would
actually start to drop, or at least cease to rise once the charger hit the
regulation voltage. I would manually chase this
gradient around by strategically placing my two 12V automotive chargers on
the selected lowest batteries. But like I said, this
is a tedious and slow process that would only get worse as the pack ages.
Now with the floodies I can at least perform string
equalization without fear of cooking the hot ones. Now I just have to
water and keep the box clean.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Here is part of one header -
> Received: from metis.sjsu.edu [130.65.3.15] by dpmail10.doteasy.com with
ESMTP
> (SMTPD32-8.05) id ADAD26D700A4; Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:16:45 -0800
> Received: from listproc (hera.sjsu.edu [130.65.3.19])
> by metis.sjsu.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.13.1) with SMTP id kBK3TWYa008615;
> Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:29:32 -0800 (PST)
> which shows that metis.sjus.edu got the email on Tue, 19 Dec 2006
19:29:32 -0800 (PST) and released it on Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:16:45 -0800. It
kept the email for 3 days.
Rush,
This three day delay was the lis server trying to send email to your email
server- I tried to send a test email to you and your server didn't answer- i
sugest that you talk to doteasy.com about that. You only have one mail
server which means you have no redundancy- if that server is down (as it is
now) you won't get email. The software that runs this list is quite old and
in those days the retry cycle was a lot less frequent that it is now. This
means that if your message doesn't get through the first time you have
longer to wait, but at the end of the day, this isn't a list problem- it is
your problem as your mail server isn't available. There are mailing lists
out there that only ever try once- if you don't get it then, you don't get
it at all.
> Also if you look in the headers you will see that there is line in some of
the headers
> - X-Greylist: Delayed for 00:15:11 by milter-greylist-3.0 (hestia.sjsu.edu
[130.65.3.74]),
> or it is
> - X-Greylist: Sender DNS name whitelisted, not delayed by
milter-greylist-3.0
> so there is a 'censoring' in place.
Greylisting is NOT censoring- it is a time delay based purely on the ip
address of the sending server- it has nothing to do with content at all.
Once you have sent a message to the list you are added to the white list-
here is the line for YOUR last message-
X-Greylist: IP, sender and recipient auto-whitelisted, not delayed by
milter-greylist-3.0 (hestia.sjsu.edu [130.65.3.74]); Sat, 23 Dec 2006
19:24:19 -0800 (PST)
This means that the list server will accept your email without delay. As was
mentioned earlier, spammers are lazy, typically they won't bother to try
again. You shouldn't be delayed again unless there are changes in your mail
setup.
Bro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter ( and GW)
That theory ( most efficient tire patch is about square) would explain the
two viewpoints.
But, can you tell me why you think that (square) patch shape is optimum?
It's not obvious to me.
It looks like you're quoting someone else's post about that point
"From what I understand, to optimize RR you want a contact patch that is
about the same length and width"
but, for some reason, I haven't seen that particular post. Is it from an
earlier discussion of tire RR?
Phil
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Maximum grip lowest rolling resistance?
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 22:48:08 -0700 (MST)
Actually, I believe you are both appoaching the problem from different
directions.
>From what I understand, to optimize RR you want a contact patch that is
about the same length and width.
Bicycle tires tend to have long narrow contact patches, so wider tires
have lower RR.
On the other hand, the low profile and wide car tires, that are popular
now, tend to have a short and wide contact patch, so using narrower tires
is better.
>>The width of the tire (not the contact patch) and air pressure
determines
>>most of the rolling resistance.
>>
>>So the more narrow the wheel generally the less resistance but the
>> profile
>>should be square to the road.
>
> Hi, GW
>
> Can you tell me why you think this is so ( that narrower tires have
lower
> RR)? Other people here have said that also, but I'm looking for some
> technical justification or reliable reference.
>
> For bicycle tires ( I ride a recumbent, and recumbent riders, in
general,
> are quite concerned with tire RR) most everyone believes that, for a
given
> tire pressure, wider tires have lower rolling resistance. I wonder if
> (and
> why) it might be different for car tires.
>
> Thanks
>
> Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Type your favorite song. Get a customized station. Try MSN Radio powered
by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can I bug a bit more? (I am still a newbie)
Is this motor:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130060394713
Big enough for a small car? Usable on 72 or 96 volts?
thanks :)
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
| Yo.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If all goes well (meaning it passed inspection) I'll have
a can to convert next tuesday.
a 1979 Chilean made Citroen GS Club: http://www.nn.cl/Autos/Gs/
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
| Yo.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/23/06, Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> wrote:
EV Digest 6240
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Dual AC55 setup, coupler...
by "Matthew Drobnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: A couple of EV's on trading post
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<snip>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:02:42 -0500
From: "Matthew Drobnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Dual AC55 setup, coupler...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi all. I'm looking into the Solectria AC55 based system (RFE drivetrain)
that was posted on the EVDL about a week or so ago. Two questions:
How much do you think the dual motor setup is worth?
Who can create a coupler to couple it to the input shaft of a
transmission?
I figure between that system, and the NiMH battery info that was posted a
few weeks ago...It'd make a nice conversion for me. :-)
Thanks,
-Matt
Matt- I don't follow the EVDL much, only occasionally by digest. I used to
work at Solectria, and the AC55 was my favorite motor. I wanted to put one
in my VW golf. It would have been a tight fit, but worthwhile, I think.
Probably any *decent* machine shop can make a coupler, if you know what you
need.
As for the setup. You need a motor and the Solectria controller. I am not
sure what was offered. And a battery pack from 288-336V. What sort of
vehicle are you going to install this in? I had the battery pack for it (but
sold it) made of BB600 cells.
Let me know more about what you might want to do and I can lend a little
more advice if you want. My private e-mail might be best as I don't watch
the EVDL much.
Seth
--- End Message ---
