--- Begin Message ---
Had some time off over the Holidays and started to work on my 1965
Datsun Pickup conversion; "WATTSUN"
Removed the pickup bed and started a CAD design drawing for my battery
boxes.
As you might imagine, the space available on this minitruck is really
limited.
My objective is to get 12 batteries under the bed of the truck.
4 on each side of the driveshaft between the cab and rear end. 4 more
behind the rear end cross member.
The space between the driveshaft and inside of frame is approximately
14".
Does anyone have a suggestion, or rule of thumb on how close you can get
to the driveshaft, and still have a safe installation?
Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C72F6D.36CF7DB9"
Subject: Driveshaft clearance
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:27:32 -0600
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group--
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:27:04 -0800 (PST)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
This is a test
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:33:24 -0800 (PST)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Test #12. PLeaselease ignore
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:38:05 -0800 (PST)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
test #3. Please ignore
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:38:57 -0800 (PST)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
test#54 Please ignore
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:52:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller SCR, Curtis or contactors? (Or
some combination)
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From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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If you look around on the internet there are plans for capacitance
calculations to build truly massive capacitors yourself by interrolling
two rolls of aluminum foil with an insulator in between (creates a large
coiled capacitor - as with all large capacitors their discharge can kill
you so exercise the normal precautions.)
On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:24 pm, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Here is what Lee Hart had to say about modifying an SCR for better
> effeciency. It's basically a capacitor bank to eliminate ripple
> effect.
> Lawrence Rhodes.....
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>> I have an SCR based controller in the Electravan that switches
>> at 1500 hz with inadequate filtering on the battery side.
>> Is it possible that the battery sees high current pulses and
>> behaves more like it is discharging at 1000 amps than 100 and
>> consequently has much less capacity.
>
> Yes, it is possible; even probable. You can measure the battery ripple
> current with a multimeter. Measure across your battery current shunt,
> or
> pick two spots along one of the wires from your batteries to the
> controller. For example, the positive terminal of the battery and the
> other end of that wire that connects to the controller. The voltage
> drop
> in this wire is proportional to current.
>
> Connect wires from these points to your multimeter, and go for a drive.
> While cruising at some constant speed, measure the DC voltage and the
> AC
> voltage. Their ratio is the percent ripple current. If the AC voltage
> is
> more than about 10% of the DC voltage, then your batteries would
> benefit
> from the addition of filter capacitors.
>
> These old SCR controllers usually didn't have a large input filter
> capacitor bank. There were several reasons.
>
> First, they expected them to be used with huge forklift batteries,
> which
> already have lots of capacitance (a "mere" 1000 amp load for these
> batteries isn't a high rate :-) They may not have been aware that lack
> of capacitors would be a problem for lower-capacity higher-resistance
> batteries.
>
> Or they knew, but were concerned about the reliability of electrolytic
> capacitors. Modern electrolytics are merely bad -- back then they were
> even worse! Note that a 20-year-old SCR controller still works; if they
> had used electrolytics, it wouldn't!
>
> Or, they knew and just wanted to save money.
>
> You can add the filter capacitors yourself. You need to connect them as
> close to the controller's input as you can, with as short and heavy a
> wire as possible.
>
> We don't have enough data to calculate a value, but it's going to take
> thousands of microfarads. If it were me, I'd look for some surplus
> electrolytics intended for switching power supply filtering, and put in
> 1,000uf worth. Measure your ripple current again, and see how much it
> dropped. Then you can guess how much more it will take.
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>> I have a 120v 20 battery pack. Weighs 1400 pounds. Lee recommended
>> 1000uf and check again. What is the problem of putting in a few
>> thousand?
>
> No direct harm; the more, the merrier.
>
> However, the goal here is to reduce the battery ripple current. With
> perfect zero-resistance capacitors, 1000uF is plenty because almost all
> the controller's ripple current will then flow in the capacitors, not
> the batteries.
>
> However, real capacitors also have resistance, called ESR on the data
> sheets (Equivalent Series Resistance). Capacitor ESR diverts ripple
> current back to the batteries. ESR also produces heat, making the
> capacitors get hot. It ultimately determines the maximum ripple current
> that the capacitor can stand without overheating.
>
> So, your goal is a capacitor with:
>
> a. At least 1000uF of capacitance.
>
> b. An ESR at least as low as your batteries ESR.
> For example, an Optima has an ESR of about 0.003 ohms.
> A pack of 10 has a total ESR of 10x0.003 = 0.03 ohms.
> Add 20 connections at 0.001 ohm each = 0.05 ohms total.
> So you want a capacitor with an ESR of 0.05 ohms or less.
>
> c. A ripple current rating of at least 1/4th your motor current.
> 400 amp motor current means the controller is switching between
> 0 and 400, which is +/-200 amps peak AC ripple, which is about
> 100 amps RMS.
>
> What you'll find is that its easy to find a 1000uF electrolytic
> capacitor; but its ESR will be 1 ohm and its ripple current rating is
> only 5 amps. Just one provides the capacitance, but you'd need 20 of
> them in parallel to satisfy the ESR and ripple current requirements.
> This is what you see in many controllers; a large number of cheaper
> electrolytics, with far more capacitance than needed just to get the
> ripple and ESR ratings.
>
> Or, oil-filled paper or polypropylene film capacitors can easily meet
> the ESR and ripple current requirements; but their capacitance is low.
> A
> big metal can oil-filled capacitor can have 20uF of capacitance, 0.1
> ohm
> ESR, and a 25-amp ripple current rating. You'd need only 4 of them for
> ESR and ripple, but 50 to get the capacitance. These capacitors would
> be
> a lot larger and more expensive than electrolytics. So what you see in
> some controllers are a smaller number of electrolytics (just to get the
> capacitance), in parallel with a smaller number of oil or film
> capacitors (to get the ESR and ripple ratings).
>
> That's why I suggested that you experiment.
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>> Lee I hop I'm not bothering you too much but I didn't want to blow
>> anything up.
>
> Aw, you're no fun! You should always have kids around when you blow up
> capacitors. They enjoy the pyrotechnics. :-)
>
> When you get an electrolytic capacitor that has been sitting unused for
> a long time, you have to re-form its dielectric. Connect it to a high
> voltage power source (like 150 vdc) with a resistor in series to limit
> the current to no more than a few milliamps (like 100k ohms). Let it
> sit
> until the capacitor voltage stops rising -- it will take 1-24 hours
> depending on how long they have sat. If a capacitor won't rise to its
> rated voltage without drawing more than 1 ma, consider it "bad".
>
> You can also estimate their real capacitance at the same time. R x C is
> the time constant -- the time it should take to charge to 2/3rds of the
> applied voltage. 440uf x 100k = 44 seconds, so it should take 44
> seconds
> to charge to 2/3 * 150v = 100v. This will also weed out any bad ones.
>
>> These are the silver ones General Electric 92F311AMMA, 440UF -10+50%,
>> 150vdc 200v surge, 85C Max Ambient. I got 10 of these. Should I put
>> them all on the positive or negative side or split them on each leg?
>> Do I have enough?
>
> Put all of them in parallel, + to +, - to -. Since you're after the
> lowest resistance, the usual method is to get two flat strips of copper
> bus bar, drill holes for the capacitor's screws, and screw them to the
> bar.
>
> You connect the resulting "big" capacitor directly across the
> controller's battery + and - inputs. Again, this should be done with
> short, heavy wire or bus bars. If you don't have a precharge resistor,
> you should add one; if the main contactor closes and tries to charge
> all
> of these capacitors instantly, it will be murder on the contacts.
>
> I described a method to find out how much/many capacitance is needed
> based on the ripple current. Too few capacitors, and they will get hot
> and not do much good. More is always better, but you reach a point
> where
> the extra cost and weight isn't worth the slight improvement.
> --
> Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has! -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>> So I put the plus buss bar on the positive end of the big capacitor
>> and the neg end of the big capacitor on the neg side of the pack.
>> Now I have the caps in parallel with the pack. Won't they just
>> charge by themselves now?
>
> The capacitors connect directly across the CONTROLLER's B+ and B-
> inputs, with the shortest fattest possible leads. The controller draws
> pulses of current, and we want these pulses to come from the
> capacitors,
> not the batteries.
>
> I assume you have contactors, fuses, circuit breakers, a big disconnect
> switch, or SOMETHING between the batteries and controller. That means
> there will be times that one or more of these is open. When you close
> it, the capacitors will try to charge INSTANTLY, leading to huge
> currents which will damage the contacts of the last device to close.
> The
> precharge resistor is intended to slowly charge the capacitors over a
> second or two; then close the last switch.
>
>> like the air pocket used in water system to stop the pipes from
>> vibrating which I guess is what ripple current is.
>
> Yes, it is basically the same thing that plumbers call "water hammer".
>
>> I'll try 10 caps and check for heat. Then I'll add more. I'll also
>> try weeding out the caps by charging with a variac.
>
> ...and a diode! Remember these are DC capacitors!
> --
> Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
> reasons.
> -- R. Buckminster Fuller
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Darin - MetroMPG.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 2:50 PM
> Subject: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller SCR, Curtis or contactors?
> (Or
> some combination)
>
>
>> With info & tips from Steve Powers and Roger Stockton, I got the old
>> EV-1 controller properly hooked up on the bench and working (with a
>> lightbulb to test output). A Rube Goldberg dimmer switch! Thanks,
>> guys.
>>
>> Now the question is: *should* I use it in the car? :-)
>>
>> I've been spending time in the archive reading people's views about
>> the
>> relative advantages & disadvantages of MOSFET vs. SCR controllers vs.
>> contactor controllers. If the goal is to do what's best for battery
>> longevity & most range per charge (town driving), what should I do?
>>
>> Given these requiremente & constraints:
>>
>> - The car's intended use is as a low speed (35-40 mph max would be
>> adequate), short-range (20 km would be fine) runabout in a small town.
>>
>> - Snappy performance isn't required by the driver or demanded by other
>> (relatively sparse) traffic. Tooling along quietly will be satisfying
>> "performance" in itself.
>>
>> - As mentioned, I've already got an OEM 24-48v SCR GE EV-1 controller
>> (with OEM bypass circuit).
>>
>> - I have half a dozen beefy contactors (and a big field-weakening
>> resistor) that could be used to make a contactor controller (CC).
>>
>> - I could spend 100 bucks (shoe-string budget) to pick up a low end
>> 24-48v Curtis controller around 275 A.
>>
>> - Haven't bought batteries yet, but it'll likely be six or eight 6v
>> floodies.
>>
>> Since I already have the SCR and it works, I'm tempted to just start
>> with that. But I understand its lack of capacitors on the input side
>> makes it relatively hard on the batteries (shortening life & range)
>> compared to a Curtis or a CC.
>>
>> A hundred buck Curtis may be better for the batteries, but a cheap one
>> will have much lower performance (acceleration & max speed, relative
>> to
>> the EV-1 or CC).
>>
>> The CC approach is appealing for its simplicity & efficiency, but I
>> have
>> read some people question its effect on range (since it draws lots of
>> current each time the controller switches "up" until the motor gains
>> speed after each switch). Of course on long stretches at constant
>> speed, the CC is more efficient, but I'll probably be doing *mostly*
>> sub/urban driving (not many long stretches at a time).
>>
>> What about a "hybrid" approach: the Curtis for starting and very low
>> speed, with some contactors for cruising speed?
>>
>> Also: I'm perfectly willing to adapt my driving to make the best use
>> of
>> whichever setup, and to try not to wreck things (eg. avoiding full
>> accel
>> from stop with a CC setup). Learning how to drive the system for good
>> range is a whole other thread...
>>
>> Darin
>>
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: new EV business
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:01:12 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Gary Krysztopik wrote:
>I was looking into solar and wind, but got hooked on EV's. I know there's
>never been any money in saving the
>environment but I don't need much to get by as long as I'm doing
>something I like.
I believe that RE in particular is easier to make a living with than before.
Public awareness and being willing to participate is greatly improved.
RE and EVs certainly go together :^D
>Non-EV'ers feedback is consistent - "Huh? That's stupid." What's the
>feedback from within the community?
Unfortunately, folks new to conversions really don't understand what is
required labor-wise to accomplish the _first_ conversion. If every vehicle
you do is different, then they are all _first_ conversions to you.
You need to take an honest look at labor requirements. Where will you find
qualified individuals? How much will they be paid? How many man-hours are
required?
There are legal hurdles to overcome. You will be converting new vehicles?
Got crash test data?
One well-used legal walk-around (thanks to the kitcar industry) is that the
vehicle can legally be _owner built_. You can be legally just a contractor
hired by the vehicle owner doing owner-specified modifications. This can
offer some protection to you as a converter. Folks please notice I use _can
be_ without being specific.
Choosing and pricing the required componentry is another area where folks
tend to way underestimate what is needed.
Do you paln on equaling the performance of the stock vehicle? A Curtis
controller and a bunch of 6v flooded batteries are not gonna take you there.
IMHO, and boy, do opinions vary on this one... $15K for components might
even be consevative. Talking Zilla controller, PFC charger, AGMs, BMS, DC-DC
converter, chassis upgrades, adaptors, instrumentation, etc. and lotsa bits
and pieces. AC drives and Lithium are a quantum leap price-wise.
And, oh yeah, back to labor. One of the big reasons folks stick with older
iron is that they don't have all their on-board systems managed by
computers. Just doing interface fixes and walk-arounds can be extremely
time-consuming.
Just a few things to consider.
Roy
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 11:55:07 -0800
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
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David, you sound hysterical not rude.
The described setup is SAFER than using a contactor.
A contactor CAN FAIL if it tries to break a runaway, wherease a
a circuit breaker is designed to do exactly a safety shutoff.
In any case, the car will have a manual shutoff, NEDRA requires it.
Gas cars don't have shutdowns when you lift the accelerator pedal, I
don't remember the safety recall on gas pedals for ICEs.
"Isn't uncommon for a DC controller to fail" please back that up with
some facts,
Shari from electromotive has said in all their years only a single
runaway, Otmar has said not a single runaway failure.
But that isn't the real issue, if a controller fails how can it turn off
a contactor?
Jack
David Roden wrote:
> Hope you are using AC drive - or if not, that you never drive on public
> roads.
>
> DC drive tends to fail full on, and your Rube Goldberg lashup may not
> respond quickly or surely enough to keep you from taking out a few other
> cars and trees, or a couple of pedestrians, if it does.
>
> At the risk of sounding rude, I'm going to say it. You are dealing with as
> much as 100-150 kilowatts of power here. It isn't that uncommon for a DC
> controller to fail, and things can happen mighty fast. Think "unintended
> acceleration." Remember that? The people who poked holes in the backs of
> their garages and ran over tricycles when their Audi 5000s roared full-steam-
> ahead without warning?
>
> A reliable contactor is a basic safety device, like a seat belt. Would you
> drive your car with a rope for a seat belt?
>
> Being totally blunt, it's OK with me if you want to kill yourself. But when
> you risk others' lives, it becomes a public issue. You'll also ruin things
> for the entire EV hobby if you make the news for killing people.
>
> So save money somewhere else. Hack your motor adapter. Buy cheap
> batteries. Even though it's also relatively unsafe, use a bad boy charger
> (as long as it's in your garage). But please don't cheap out on basic road
> safety gear.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Driveshaft clearance
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:15:55 -0700
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Hello Dennis,
If it's a independent suspension, then the differential is fix, and there
should be no lateral movement of the drive line.
If it's a solid axle, then there should be two side thrust arms, that
prevent or keep the lateral movement to a minimum.
Best way to check this, is to jack up the car and place the frame on wood
timber so the tires are just off the floor and than remove the jack.
Chain the frame member to a solid object like a post or a floor anchor.
Use the jack lay down horizontal that is brace against the same post with
the change on it and place a 4 by 4 timber against the jack which will than
press against another 4 by 4 timber that is place across the center of the
tire.
Now measure a reference point off the axle to a point on the floor. Slowly
increase the pressure of the jack against the tire, to see if there is any
movement.
If the lateral movement of the axle has little resistance up to 1 inch or
high resistance at 1/4 inch, Then this would be your references for building
you battery enclosure clearances.
The forward and side thrust arms have rubber bushings that give in the
lateral motion. There may be metal stops that will give you a indication of
how much lateral motion there might be.
You may be able to push the wheel back and forth my hand. If its more than
the recommended specifications in a maintenance manual, then the bushings
are worn out.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 12:27 PM
Subject: Driveshaft clearance
Had some time off over the Holidays and started to work on my 1965
Datsun Pickup conversion; "WATTSUN"
Removed the pickup bed and started a CAD design drawing for my battery
boxes.
As you might imagine, the space available on this minitruck is really
limited.
My objective is to get 12 batteries under the bed of the truck.
4 on each side of the driveshaft between the cab and rear end. 4 more
behind the rear end cross member.
The space between the driveshaft and inside of frame is approximately
14".
Does anyone have a suggestion, or rule of thumb on how close you can get
to the driveshaft, and still have a safe installation?
Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
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> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C72F6D.36CF7DB9"
> Subject: Driveshaft clearance
> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:27:32 -0600
> Message-ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> X-MS-Has-Attach:
> X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Thread-Topic: Driveshaft clearance
> Thread-Index: AccvbTax8Ln6F3oYT8KzMt/BqaTolg==
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion Group--
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: new EV business
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:34:53 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Gary, I can see that you are not getting that much encouraging advice. Would
you like some more? First, in reply to Roy's comment I would not consider
getting into the PV industry from a product sales point, it is over
saturated. If you are in a large enough area without an installer then I do
see a very bright future there. You of course will make money off the
product as well. With more and more storms taking out people's power there
will be more interest from people, even if they aren't environmentalists.
The weather will most likely continue to get weirder. The cherry blossoms in
Washington DC are blooming four months early just to give you a hint.
Concerning conversions, I started doing conversions before switching to
the parts business. If you don't mind making 50 cents an hour then go for
it. The only way a person can come out on it is to do the same car over and
over. With a kit that is already developed for a particular model then you
are even that much ahead of the curve. Your best bet might just be to
develop an after market product that you can sell to the hundreds of EVers
out there. I said hundreds on purpose because it is not thousands. Therefore
your product will have to have a very hefty mark up to crack your monthly
nut or you will soon eat up your wife's income as well. Sorry for the not so
rosy picture.
One possibility if you want to be in the EV industry is to sell NEVs. The
ZENN car is just starting to take off here in the Seattle area because it
looks like a real car and that is because it is. Once gasoline tops $20.00 a
gallon, which it will in time, I just don't know when, you will probably see
a spike in sales :-) I hope you have a great new year!
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: new EV business
> Gary Krysztopik wrote:
>>I was looking into solar and wind, but got hooked on EV's. I know there's
>>never been any money in saving the
>>environment but I don't need much to get by as long as I'm doing
>>something I like.
>
> I believe that RE in particular is easier to make a living with than
> before.
> Public awareness and being willing to participate is greatly improved.
> RE and EVs certainly go together :^D
>
>>Non-EV'ers feedback is consistent - "Huh? That's stupid." What's the
>>feedback from within the community?
>
> Unfortunately, folks new to conversions really don't understand what is
> required labor-wise to accomplish the _first_ conversion. If every vehicle
> you do is different, then they are all _first_ conversions to you.
>
> You need to take an honest look at labor requirements. Where will you find
> qualified individuals? How much will they be paid? How many man-hours are
> required?
>
> There are legal hurdles to overcome. You will be converting new vehicles?
> Got crash test data?
>
> One well-used legal walk-around (thanks to the kitcar industry) is that
> the vehicle can legally be _owner built_. You can be legally just a
> contractor hired by the vehicle owner doing owner-specified modifications.
> This can offer some protection to you as a converter. Folks please notice
> I use _can be_ without being specific.
>
> Choosing and pricing the required componentry is another area where folks
> tend to way underestimate what is needed.
>
> Do you paln on equaling the performance of the stock vehicle? A Curtis
> controller and a bunch of 6v flooded batteries are not gonna take you
> there.
>
> IMHO, and boy, do opinions vary on this one... $15K for components might
> even be consevative. Talking Zilla controller, PFC charger, AGMs, BMS,
> DC-DC converter, chassis upgrades, adaptors, instrumentation, etc. and
> lotsa bits and pieces. AC drives and Lithium are a quantum leap
> price-wise.
>
> And, oh yeah, back to labor. One of the big reasons folks stick with older
> iron is that they don't have all their on-board systems managed by
> computers. Just doing interface fixes and walk-arounds can be extremely
> time-consuming.
>
> Just a few things to consider.
> Roy
> ...
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
> NEDRA NW Regional Director
> www.nedra.com
>
> My EV and RE Project Pages-
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG
>
>
>
>
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller SCR, Curtis or contactors? (Or
some combination)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:38:46 -0800
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Capacitors are batteries of a sort. They can charge and discharge very
fast. They clean the electrons flowing from the battery pack. Acting as a
ballast for the current. What gets through is pure wave. Not ripple. You
can buy surplus really big capacitors cheap. I sold my capacitors with my
truck containing the scr controller. It was a good running truck except for
the 40 mile max range. With the capacitors I'd bet it would do 60 miles.
Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darin - MetroMPG.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller SCR, Curtis or contactors? (Or
some combination)
> James Massey wrote:
>
> > Put it in and upgrade it later. All the contactors, fuses and stuff that
> > are needed for a Curtis or whatever will be needed for the EV-1, the
> > EV-1 just has the extra bypass contactor.
> >
> > From what I read, the SCR controller will roughly halve the range
> > potential of the batteries, if the controller spends most of its' time
> > in mid-range PWM.
>
> That's good to know, and thanks for the EV-1 specific driving lesson
> too. (I'm not being facetious!)
>
> Sounds like it may be a case of monitoring how much I can effectively
> keep the controller bypass active (ie foot to the floor) in routine
> driving once at "cruising" speed. If I can do it much of the time, then
> the EV-1 would be fine. If not, then a Curtis might be more suitable.
>
> Or, improve the EV-1 ...
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > Here is what Lee Hart had to say about modifying an SCR for better
> > effeciency. It's basically a capacitor bank to eliminate ripple
effect.
>
> Thanks for reminding me of that post, Lawrence. I had read it while
> mining the archive for EV-1 info. Did you end up applying this mod to
> your SCR controller successfully?
>
> I have relatively little experience with electronics, so I can't say
> that I understood it completely. But I'm not averse to learning, so
> it's something I would look into if it could make the EV-1 more battery
> friendly, affordably. But first I'll have to look up "microfarad" :-)
>
> Darin
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Potential EV Chasis on e-bay
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:40:09 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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There are plenty of Festiva's in California as well as Aspires. Both good.
Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Potential EV Chasis on e-bay
> On 2 Jan 2007 at 14:16, Steve Powers wrote:
>
> > I like the Festiva. ... I think it makes a
> > great EV, but the chasis is hard to find. I don't know how long parts
will
> > be available, but while its working, I'm going to keep driving it
>
> These cars were still sold in South Korea (as the Kia Pride) until the
early
> 2000s. The base model was priced at under $5000 in 2001! Overseas
> suppliers in Asia and possibly in Europe will probably continue to provide
> parts for many more years, so it will just be a matter of finding a
contact.
>
> They are not the highest quality gliders around, but the chassis are
> reasonably sturdy, and the boxy shape lends itself well to stuffing in
> batteries.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:57:49 -0800 (PST)
From: David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: new EV business
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Cool, Gary. Good luck, it has proven difficult to actually make money
designing or building EV's, but some have (and are) doing it. There are at
least two sucessful conversion companies on the list that make the customer
supply the donor, take only trucks (rangers or S10's), and supply a basic
conversion (120-144V of golf cart batteries in the bed, Curtis 1231, Iota
DC-DC, Russco charger, ADC 9" motor, ceramic heater, brake vacuum pump, and
basic instrumentation (voltmeter and ammeter)) for $10,000 and make money at
it. You'd have to ask them what they do to drum up business, though.
As to the budget, it's not *that* tight, though starting with a new car will
make it kind of tight for you. I just finished a Fiero conversion for almost
exactly $20,000, and it required a lot of extra care to repair and rejuvenate
it. You won't have that expense. I went High voltage DC, Z1K controller,
PFC-20 charger, with AGM batteries (not drag racers, though) and Mk2
regulators. See www.davesevs.com/squirrel/squirrel.htm and the cost breakdown
at http://www.davesevs.com/squirrel/Cost%20Table.htm and
http://www.davesevs.com/squirrel/cost%20graph.jpg. Also my 'admittedly partial
but more complete than you usually see' list of things you need to build an EV
at http://www.davesevs.com/squirrel/stuff%20you%20need.htm.
Given the budget, it probably would be best to do a high voltage lead AGM DC
conversion first. It'll have lots of zip to impress investors, and uses
relatively common components. It's relatively easy to work out the kinks.
Then when you get enough funding, do an AC powered lead AGM car, then keep
converting with those two models to generate funds while experimenting with
advanced batteries. Build an advanced chemistry AC car when you can afford it,
and when you are confident you can manage the batteries, and sell it at a
premium.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: gary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2007 12:13:29 PM
Subject: new EV business
Since this is probably the largest single collection of EV experts that
there is, and it has been a great list with lots of friendly advice and
good ideas, I'd like to see if I can get some feedback on an EV plan.
I am an electrical engineer (microprocessors, s/w, systems integration,
project management, etc.) and I recently left my job after 23 years to
move cross country with my wife who got a s/w job in San Antonio that
she couldn't refuse. She's paying the bills :<} so I have the rare
opportunity to try to start a business that I care about instead of
going back to a corporate desk. I was looking into solar and wind, but
got hooked on EV's. I know there's never been any money in saving the
environment but I don't need much to get by as long as I'm doing
something I like.
I started building a "rough" 3-wheeler as a test bed and I wanted to
design a few others that I have in mind. This takes money so I started
on a business plan for investors and will continue with that in
parallel. Part of that plan is to convert new cars as a short-term
product, to test systems, and to develop credibility for investors and
customers. Another goal is to design subsystems for EV's. I see plenty
of other people working on new vehicle design and subsystem design so
this is nothing new but hopefully the industry will get the attention it
deserves and will continue to grow.
We just signed on a $30K loan and I have a (refundable) deposit on a
2007 Honda Fit. I selected it based on cost, curb and gross weight,
utility, resale, etc. The Fit is 109 HP, 2432 curb, 3446 gross and $16K
(for "sport" model, base models are too scarce). Seems to be high
demand, and the new engine resale may be pretty good. Lot's of room,
safe, lightweight w/ ok gross, electric throttle and steering assist.
It's a very tight budget to offer a new EV for around $30K, especially
since it needs to be professionally done and maintenance-free, but I am
willing to work full-time to be able to sell the first one at cost.
This will get my foot in the door, test the market, and allow subsequent
conversions to be done much quicker with possibly a small profit. This
isn't intended to be a stand-alone money maker, just a path to learn and
become established. Worst case, I'll "get stuck" with a very nice EV
and continue working on designs.
I initially planned on the first one to be low-budget (DC/Pb) and
another to be high-end (AC/Li) but I'm considering AC/Pb right now.
That makes $30K almost impossible but I'm still trying to price all of
the options (I sent requests to ElectroAuto and MetricMind for
Solectria, Siemens and MES systems). I know Zillas are 6 months out and
I will order one anyway, and I just saw LogiSystems re-engineered Curtis
1221B's that I will look into (any feedback on them?). The goal is for
a daily commuter that will briskly accelerate to 65mph for highway use,
so range will be secondary. Both mine and my wife's daily drives are
well under 30 miles round trip and I have a 5 mile run at 70mph with
trucks on my bumper. I think that's reasonably average for a lot of
people, and battery upgrades would be available.
Non-EV'ers feedback is consistent - "Huh? That's stupid." What's the
feedback from within the community? Aside from why it may not work out,
I'd love to get ideas on component selection. I've read the whole AC vs
DC debate and battery tradeoff's but would still like to hear comments
on this particular application. I'm also open to partnering or helping
other efforts. Investors welcome!
Much appreciated. Thanks and Happy New EV's to everybody!
Gary Krysztopik
Z-Wheelz, LLC (website almost done - details of conversion will be
documented)
gkrysztopik at satx.rr.com
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:15:43 -0800 (PST)
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Driveshaft clearance
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Axles and driveshafts can move more side-to-side than you'd expect. Even with a
panhard rod, with stock sized tires, my car's axle has moved far enough
side-to-side to rub the tires on the inside fender on both sides (has to move
about an inch to do that), with grippy race tires on while racing. So one bound
is to look how far the axle would have to move sideways before the tire hits --
that'll give a max bound on how far the driveshaft will move side-to-side.
If your truck does not have a panhard rod, adapting or making one will greatly
reduce how much the axle moves side-to-side. Stiffer, harder bushings can help,
too.
----- Original Message ----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV Discussion Group <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2007 12:27:32 PM
Subject: Driveshaft clearance
Had some time off over the Holidays and started to work on my 1965 Datsun
Pickup conversion; "WATTSUN"
Removed the pickup bed and started a CAD design drawing for my battery boxes.
As you might imagine, the space available on this minitruck is really limited.
My objective is to get 12 batteries under the bed of the truck. 4 on each side
of the driveshaft between the cab and rear end. 4 more behind the rear end
cross member.
The space between the driveshaft and inside of frame is approximately 14".
Does anyone have a suggestion, or rule of thumb on how close you can get to the
driveshaft, and still have a safe installation?
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