EV Digest 6269
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Does this SMELL of CONTROL ??
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: new EV business
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: new EV business
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Surplus Capacitors - Was: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller...
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: new EV business
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller SCR, Curtis or contactors? (Or
some combination)
by "Darin - MetroMPG.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: new EV business
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: new EV business
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Newbie questions (batteries) Cor - can you help this guy?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) LogiSystems controller ?
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Newbie questions (batteries)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
13) Re: LogiSystems controller ?
by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller SCR, Curtis or contactors? (Or some
combination)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) V is for Voltage Forum
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [EV] Re: LogiSystems controller ?
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Telsa EV on PBS Wired Science tonight!!,
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: V is for Voltage Forum
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: V is for Voltage Forum
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Driveshaft clearance
by "David O'Neel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller SCR,
Curtis or contactors? (Or some combination)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller SCR,
Curtis or contactors? (Or some combination)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: V is for Voltage Forum
by "Darin - MetroMPG.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: new EV business
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller SCR, Curtis or contactors? (Or
some combination)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Exide orbitals
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller SCR, Curtis or contactors? (Or
some combination)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Cobasys and A123Systems Announce Partnership to Develop Lithium Ion
Hybrid Electric Vehicle Battery Systems.. ( HUMMMmmmmmm ? ? )
Remember Cobasy = Chevron and Energy Conversion Devices, Inc.
The thing I worry about is that they can now... SLOW Down the
development... OR keep it off the market altogether. Or just keep the
prices up there out of reach of small folks and small EV builders.
Below is the LINK to the whole article...
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-03-2007/0004498758&EDATE=
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Gary and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: new EV business
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:13:29 -0600
>Since this is probably the largest single collection of EV
>experts that there is, and it has been a great list with
>lots of friendly advice and good ideas, I'd like to see if
>I can get some feedback on an EV plan.
>
>I am an electrical engineer (microprocessors, s/w, systems
>integration, project management, etc.) and I recently left
>my job after 23 years to move cross country with my wife
>who got a s/w job in San Antonio that she couldn't refuse.
>She's paying the bills :<} so I have the rare opportunity
>to try to start a business that I care about instead of
>going back to a corporate desk. I was looking into solar
>and wind, but got hooked on EV's. I know there's never
>been any money in saving the environment but I don't need
>much to get by as long as I'm doing something I like.
>
>I started building a "rough" 3-wheeler as a test bed and I
>wanted to design a few others that I have in mind. This
>takes money so I started on a business plan for investors
>and will continue with that in parallel. Part of that plan
>is to convert new cars as a short-term product, to test
>systems, and to develop credibility for investors and
>customers. Another goal is to design subsystems for EV's.
>I see plenty of other people working on new vehicle design
>and subsystem design so this is nothing new but hopefully
>the industry will get the attention it deserves and will
>continue to grow.
3 wheelers are good because as legally MC's, they are
easy to sell finished fed reg wise which is why I originally
went with them. But as I learned more, they ended up a near
prefect fit for EV's as each helped the other's weaker
points such as batteries helping keep the CG low for safety,
great handling amoung others like low weight, low drag for
long range, low building/materials costs.
EV's cost by the pound so the lighter you go, the
faster, longer range on less money, battery. By going very
lightweight, good aero I was able to lower my battery weight
to 720 lbs with 80-150 mile range and still sell at $13k
with a good profit. It's taken me about $19k to start up my
EV production. Just got my front suspension and things are
moving well on it. Factories won't be delivered for about a
yr as the bugs, production line has to be refined, labor
reduced, ect.
Doing a 4wheeler means you will have to build them
custom as homebuilt or sell as a kit with everything done
but bolting in the motor, batteries saves much start up
costs.
Conversions have several drawbacks, especially new
ones being too costly, heavy, higher drag and just not EV
material. And they are always compared to the cheap gas
version, not a good selling point. You need your own brand
and a vehicle only you provide either by building from
scratch or modifying a kitcar, ect. Plus you can go down in
history as a car manufacturer!!
So I'd suggest you build an EV from a good kitcar
model like the Factory 5 Daytona Coupe or Fiberfab's
Valkrie, GT-40 clone or other aero kitcars. I'm going to
modify an older, similar body to the Daytona Coupe body,
redesigning the chassis, modifying the body into a composite
monocoque-unibody, just like the most expensive Ferrari!!
And more importantly, my own brand which if you want
one of mine, you have to come to me. Notice which customers
I go for. You need to figure out who you are going to sell
to. The rich are always good buyers for this kind of stuff
if it looks good. Sadly looks will be more important than
anything else!! Few will care whether it is AC or DC, most
will just want speed, acceleration which DC is better, less
costly at!!
Most kitcar makers would work with you on discounted
kits to whatever stage you want, then put in a high power DC
drive, ect. You should have about $20k in one and it could
sell for $40-$60K if done well. You could make a very good
living just doing 6 or so a yr from a 2 car garage!!
Never have one for sale until well established as they
will try to cheap you out. Instead build your own, then use
it as a demo to sell on demand will get you much more money,
easier sales that way regretfully.
One thing you might do is buy Sunrise kits from Lee
Hart when they are ready and finish them. As a Sunrise would
probably bring $50k+ on E bay. It too is all composite
monocoque, very aero, low drag. Lee could use some capital
now to speed things up so you might be able to make a deal.
The only conversions that might make money is doing
older Porsche 924-944's, BMWs, ect as they are higher class,
reasonably lightweight but fairly cheap with blown engines.
For your starting capital, these options are probably
your best bets.
And we are here to help if you want it. Without the
list I would have never been able to get this far!!
You might want to join the EVWare list and read the
short archives that explains how to start up, build from
scratch EV's, especally 3wheelers, for personal use or
production in several methods that takes much less time and
more on my business model.
There is a hugh market for EV's that no one is
filling. If you have a decent, viable product marketed
corectly, will easily sell. My first yrs production is about
1/3 way sold out now and it's not even rolling yet!!
I'm amazed more EV'ers haven't went into production
these ways.
Jerry Dycus
>
>We just signed on a $30K loan and I have a (refundable)
>deposit on a 2007 Honda Fit. I selected it based on cost,
>curb and gross weight, utility, resale, etc. The Fit is
>109 HP, 2432 curb, 3446 gross and $16K (for "sport" model,
>base models are too scarce). Seems to be high demand, and
>the new engine resale may be pretty good. Lot's of room,
>safe, lightweight w/ ok gross, electric throttle and
>steering assist. It's a very tight budget to offer a new EV
>for around $30K, especially since it needs to be
>professionally done and maintenance-free, but I am willing
>to work full-time to be able to sell the first one at cost.
>This will get my foot in the door, test the market, and
>allow subsequent conversions to be done much quicker with
>possibly a small profit. This isn't intended to be a
>stand-alone money maker, just a path to learn and become
>established. Worst case, I'll "get stuck" with a very nice
>EV and continue working on designs.
>
>I initially planned on the first one to be low-budget
>(DC/Pb) and another to be high-end (AC/Li) but I'm
>considering AC/Pb right now. That makes $30K almost
>impossible but I'm still trying to price all of the options
>(I sent requests to ElectroAuto and MetricMind for
>Solectria, Siemens and MES systems). I know Zillas are 6
>months out and I will order one anyway, and I just saw
>LogiSystems re-engineered Curtis 1221B's that I will look
>into (any feedback on them?). The goal is for a daily
>commuter that will briskly accelerate to 65mph for highway
>use, so range will be secondary. Both mine and my wife's
>daily drives are well under 30 miles round trip and I have
>a 5 mile run at 70mph with trucks on my bumper. I think
>that's reasonably average for a lot of people, and battery
>upgrades would be available.
>
>Non-EV'ers feedback is consistent - "Huh? That's stupid."
>What's the feedback from within the community? Aside from
>why it may not work out, I'd love to get ideas on component
>selection. I've read the whole AC vs DC debate and battery
>tradeoff's but would still like to hear comments on this
>particular application. I'm also open to partnering or
>helping other efforts. Investors welcome!
>
>Much appreciated. Thanks and Happy New EV's to everybody!
>
>Gary Krysztopik
>Z-Wheelz, LLC (website almost done - details of conversion
>will be documented)
>gkrysztopik at satx.rr.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Random idea for you: Design an inexpensive wheel motor. Imagine how fast and
easy a conversion would be if the drivetrain was bolting on 4 wheels.
----- Original Message ----
From: gary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2007 10:13:29 AM
Subject: new EV business
...Another goal is to design subsystems for EV's. I see plenty
of other people working on new vehicle design and subsystem design so
this is nothing new but hopefully the industry will get the attention it
deserves and will continue to grow.
...
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can you tell me where you bought the really big surplus capacitors or where
I might look for them?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> You
> can buy surplus really big capacitors cheap. I sold my capacitors with my
> truck containing the scr controller. It was a good running truck except
for
> the 40 mile max range. With the capacitors I'd bet it would do 60 miles.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2007 Honda Fit.
I Like the idea of the Honda Fit. Though it seems Honda usually
doesn't leave many empty spaces for batteries. I would like to know
how much interior space would be lost to the batteries.
And what color are you going with? If I could sell my old house I
might be interested.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> These two statements are somewhat contraditory [...]
You said you want long range; then said short range is fine.
You're right. I should have said I was looking for the "best possible
range" from a small pack (that implies relatively short range overall).
Of course you could add the capacitor; *but they are big and expensive*
That I didn't know. Out of curiosity, is it easy to say roughly how big
(& how many)?
If I were you, I'd experiment. ... Once you're measured the performance
of each of them, you'll know what works best for your particular situation.
I guess I mistakenly assumed there would be an obvious slam dunk from
the available options.
Of course experimenting is the logical approach. Truth is, having never
driven a BEV other than an e-bicycle and a golf cart (and I realize I'm
not aiming much higher than that), I'm actually curious to experience
the differences between the controller styles.
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Jan 2007 at 11:55, Jack Murray wrote:
> David, you sound hysterical not rude.
Nope, just concerned. I don't do hysterical (except with laughter ;-).
> "Isn't uncommon for a DC controller to fail" please back that
> up with some facts.
We have a few people on this list who can tell you their stories, and I hope
they do. The point is that when a DC controller DOES fail, by far the most
common failure mode is full on!
> if a controller fails how can it turn off a contactor?
It shouldn't have to. Although some controllers do operate the contactor
(precharge and some safety measures), a satisfactory safety system won't
depend entirely on complex electronics. It should have a simple switch,
under the driver's control, which will open the connection to the
contactor's coil. The best place for this switch is at the top of
accelerator travel because the driver's first reaction to unintended
acceleration is to release the pedal. The second best place is on the brake
switch, because that's his second reaction.
A Big Red Button (tm) is also a good thing to have, but that's further down
the list. By the time you hit that there's a good chance that you've
already hit something with the car.
I don't mean to sound smug, but you have experienced EVers advising against
this scheme. They have a pretty good reason for so doing. I'm curious what
your experience is that makes you so confident that it's safe. Frankly, to
me you sound more reckless than confident.
That aside, if you can describe a methodology by which you can thoroughly
test this scheme to ensure that it'll disable the drive in a timely and 100%
reliable manner in case of a real emergency, and actually carry out that
testing prior to putting the vehicle on the road, then I for one will be
less concerned.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Jan 2007 at 18:13, damon henry wrote:
> Seriously, if people were interested in paying $30K for a brand new Honda Fit,
> Honda would be selling them for that much.
A few years ago I would have agreed. Now I'm not so sure.
I was really surprised at the interest in EVs when gasoline prices touched
$3 a gallon. I hadn't expected that, and I think one reason is that there
were factors beyond the price itself.
Recall that Solectria offered the Force at around $30K back in 1992. That
was at a time when a new Metro cost well under $10K, if I'm not mistaken.
The spread here isn't nearly as wide, and plenty of small cars have exceeded
the $20K mark. The Fit is also a better car by far than the Geo Metro was.
That said, I wonder whether he can really do it for $30k. That's quite an
ambitious goal, even without making a profit.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Gary, I can see that you are not getting that much encouraging advice.
Would
you like some more?
I missed the encouraging part of that advice Rod.
Exactly where was that? :^D
Roy
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page
www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger - Cor Van der Water has a truck like yours running an AC drivetrain with
25 UB121100 AGM batteries which he's put at least a few thousand miles on over
the past year. The UB's are an inexpensive imported, nominally 110 amp hour
battery which seem to work OK in EV's. (I have a dozen myself, but only put
600 miles on them before I took them out for my next project. Cor would be the
guy for you to get good data from.)
Roger Johnsonbaugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have been reading
about batteries for about 8 months now and I
know about as much as I did when I started.
I am in the planning stages of a 94 S-10 conversion. I will be using a
siemens A/C drive from MetricMind, and I am hoping
I will be able to fit 29 group 31 lead acid batteries in it. (Other
chemistries would be nice, but the control/protection circuits
are over my head at the moment.) So the question is: Flooded, Gel, AGM?
Brand names: Deka(same as MK?), Trojan, Lifeline
The list goes on. The manufacturer's claims seem to be fairly similar, and
I am wondering if these batteries actually perform
as advertised. I am hoping for some real world experience to help me with a
choice. I could go on for a while with a bunch of
disjointed questions, but I would rather let you guys and/or gals tell me
what you want to tell me.
Thanks for your input,
Roger
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just read about LogiSystems controllers... From their web page they
look too good to be true.
Are they?
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://e.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Roland -
I was a little disappointed when they showed up in my driveway with one piece
caps.
When I first saw them I thought, "Geez, those guys using these for EV's can't
be happy with this".
For some reason I thought I was just stuck with them.
They are Trojans and, ya - da - I'll stop in and talk with the battery guy.
They are hard to clean around - well - impossible unless you pop them off.
As for all the little, rogue, gremlin voltage leakage paths - they drive me
nuts.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hello Dana,
>
> You can request separate caps from any battery shop. I like the individual
> caps design battery tops, because the filler neck protrudes higher then the
> top of the battery. This provides a additional barrior of voltage tracking
> from one cell to the next.
>
> The single cap has a locking twist lock with a o ring. I had these push on
> caps blew off at one time. You can also lock on a optional automatic water
> system or Hydrocells.
>
> Just take a volt meter and touch the probes next to each filler neck and see
> if you are getting any voltage.
>
> It is easier to clean the top of the batteries with single caps.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dana Havranek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Newbie questions (batteries)
>
>
> > Hi Roland,
> >
> > I have one piece push-ons, don't like them, but they seem to work.
> > Cable routing was a real bugger, though.
> > They seem to contain the acid O.K.
> > Tell me a little more about the individual caps.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dana
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > If open cell pb flooded battery, then use individual locking caps with a
> > > O-ring seal. No gang type push on caps.
> > >
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Roger Johnsonbaugh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 11:41 AM
> > > Subject: Newbie questions (batteries)
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have been reading about batteries for about 8 months now and
> > > > I
> > > > know about as much as I did when I started.
> > > >
> > <snip>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use them, best bang for the buck. Bought my first controller from them 2
years before they even had a web page. Let everyone know about them back then
by posting on the visforvoltage forum. Never a complaint from that group.
Bob
Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I just read about LogiSystems controllers... From their web page they
look too good to be true.
Are they?
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://e.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darin - MetroMPG.com wrote:
> That I didn't know. Out of curiosity, is it easy to say
> roughly how big (& how many)?
Due to the cost of these capacitors new, the answer typically comes down
largely to what size/value can you find surplus, and then buy as many as
you can afford ;^>
Taking the Cornell Dublier 500C series part as an example:
<http://www.cde.com/catalogs/500C.pdf>
You could get 40-48A of ripple capability in a 3.5" diameter x 8.675"
tall capacitor, depending on the voltage rating (at 63VDC a 290,000uF
cap gives 43.90A, at 75VDC 220,000uF gives 40.2A, and the best ripple
capability appears to be in the 160VDC series, with 65,000uF giving
48.80A).
Due to the low switching frequency (and low voltage) of your
application, the capacitors you might use are not necessarily what would
be used in a modern PWM controller; you are concerned with ripple
capability and ESR in the sub-300Hz range while modern controllers need
to look at a capacitor's behaviour at 15-20kHz. You also aren't trying
to stuff the cap bank into a smallish box, so a smallish number of large
screw-terminal type packages are fine while modern controllers would
instead use a larger number of smaller 'snap-in' type packages.
At the 75V level, Digikey carries the CDE DCMC743U075DC2B (74,000uF,
17.0A ripple, 3"x4.125", US$91.35/ea, so $5.37/amp...) The DCMC series
parts have 1/2 the rated life of the 500C series.
At the 100V level, Digikey has the 500C183T100CC2B (18,000uF, $65.74/ea;
this part doesn't exist in CDE's datasheet, but if it did if should fall
between the 17,000 and 19,000uF parts with about 13A of ripple
capability, so $5.06/amp).
At the 200V level, Digikey has the DCMC692T200BC2B (6900uF, 10.9A
ripple, $62.55/ea, so $5.74/amp).
Going surplus, say browsing the online catalog at C&H
(<http://www.candhsales.biz/>), you can find large can elecrolytics in
the 7500-8000uF ballpark for about US$8-10 each. It is up to you to
search up datasheets to try to determine if the surplus parts have
useful ratings for your application, and you need to buy more than you
think you need in case some are DOA when you try to reform them before
use.
As you can see, the problem is that the cost of the caps quickly becomes
a significant fraction of the cost of a more modern controller, and the
cap bank could easily be the same physical size as the EV-1 controller
itself! For instance, for less than US$400 you could get a bare bones
Alltrax 24-48V 400A controller that would outperform your EV-1 even with
capacitors, and all in a package just a bit larger than your hand:
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=262&product_id=3
830>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know the status of the V is for Voltage forum? Wasn't it hacked
several months ago? Is anyone working to restore it?
Robert Lemke wrote:
Let everyone know about them back then by posting on the visforvoltage
forum. Never a complaint from that group.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Jan 03, 2007 at 04:01:52PM -0800, Robert Lemke wrote:
> I use them, best bang for the buck. Bought my first controller from them 2
> years before they even had a web page. Let everyone know about them back then
> by posting on the visforvoltage forum. Never a complaint from that group.
>
Do you have an email contact for them?
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://e.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
It's on right now with the Telsa on late in the
hour, 8pm EST.
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know if it is out-of-date or not, but if you google on +"v is for
voltage" you get this message:
Warning - visiting this web site may harm your computer!
You can learn more about harmful web content and how to protect your computer
at StopBadware.org.
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Advisory provided by
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2007 5:27:31 PM
Subject: V is for Voltage Forum
Does anyone know the status of the V is for Voltage forum? Wasn't it hacked
several months ago? Is anyone working to restore it?
Robert Lemke wrote:
Let everyone know about them back then by posting on the visforvoltage
forum. Never a complaint from that group.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was hacked, a temprary forum can be found at visforvoltage.net.
On 1/3/07, David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I don't know if it is out-of-date or not, but if you google on +"v is for
voltage" you get this message:
Warning - visiting this web site may harm your computer!
You can learn more about harmful web content and how to protect your computer
at StopBadware.org.
Suggestions:Return to the previous page and pick another result.Try another
search to find what you're looking for. Or you can continue to
http://www.visforvoltage.com/ at your own risk.
Advisory provided by
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2007 5:27:31 PM
Subject: V is for Voltage Forum
Does anyone know the status of the V is for Voltage forum? Wasn't it hacked
several months ago? Is anyone working to restore it?
Robert Lemke wrote:
Let everyone know about them back then by posting on the visforvoltage
forum. Never a complaint from that group.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks both for the question and answers. I am at about the same stage in my
conversion as well.
Dave O.
On 1/3/07, Pestka, Dennis J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Had some time off over the Holidays and started to work on my 1965
Datsun Pickup conversion; "WATTSUN"
Removed the pickup bed and started a CAD design drawing for my battery
boxes.
As you might imagine, the space available on this minitruck is really
limited.
My objective is to get 12 batteries under the bed of the truck.
4 on each side of the driveshaft between the cab and rear end. 4 more
behind the rear end cross member.
The space between the driveshaft and inside of frame is approximately
14".
Does anyone have a suggestion, or rule of thumb on how close you can get
to the driveshaft, and still have a safe installation?
Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C72F6D.36CF7DB9"
Subject: Driveshaft clearance
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:27:32 -0600
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Thread-Topic: Driveshaft clearance
Thread-Index: AccvbTax8Ln6F3oYT8KzMt/BqaTolg==
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Another way to attack the ripple problem is to add inductance to the
> motor loop. Basically, the battery sees huge ripple because the motor
> doesn't have enough inductance to keep the current flowing during the
> off period of the PWM cycle, so the motor loop current drops to [near]
> 0A before the main SCR turns back on.
I don't think that will work. I mean it will reduce ripple on the motor
side of the controller, but won't effect the battery side.
Think about it, without caps the battery just sees the controller as a big
on/off switch. On - current flows, off - no current.
If the average current draw is 100 amps, and the controller is at 25% duty
cycle, then the battery is STILL going to see 400 amps draw when the SCR
is on and 0 amps when it's off, regardless of whats happening on the motor
side of the SCR.
Adding inductance will slow down the time it takes the motor to speed up
and slow down, but won't effect input ripple current.
Besides the fact that adding inducatance will change the "ringing"
characteristics of the SCR circuit and you'd have to change other
components in order to get the SCR to switch off.
I.e. the SCR NEEDS to have no current flowing through it in order to turn
off.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Grr, I though about it some more after hitting the send key.
I see what you are trying for. Adding inductance to slow the inrush of
current through the SCR when it turns on. Sort changing it from a square
wave to a truncated sawtooth.
THe duty cycle would have to increase somewhat to compensate, and the turn
OFF will still be abrupt.
I'm still pretty sure that it will cause problems with the SCR though.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AutoblogGreen asked the same question in December:
"What's up with V Is For Voltage website?" ...
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/12/22/what-s-up-with-v-if-for-voltage-website/
or http://tinyurl.com/y8ma83
Their answer:
"you can visit the V Is For Voltage Recovery Blog, which includes
updates from Trough on how the recovery is going."
"V is for Voltage Recovery" blog ...
http://www.vrefuge.blogspot.com/
Darin
--
Bruce wrote:
Does anyone know the status of the V is for Voltage forum? Wasn't it hacked
several months ago? Is anyone working to restore it?
Robert Lemke wrote:
Let everyone know about them back then by posting on the visforvoltage
forum. Never a complaint from that group.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gary wrote:
> We just signed on a $30K loan and I have a (refundable) deposit on a
> 2007 Honda Fit. I selected it based on cost, curb and gross weight,
> utility, resale, etc. The Fit is 109 HP, 2432 curb, 3446
> gross and $16K (for "sport" model, base models are too scarce).
> It's a very tight budget to offer a new EV for around $30K,
> especially since it needs to be professionally done and
> maintenance-free, but I am willing to work full-time to be
> able to sell the first one at cost.
> This will get my foot in the door, test the market, and allow
> subsequent conversions to be done much quicker with possibly a
> small profit. This isn't intended to be a stand-alone money
> maker, just a path to learn and become established. Worst case,
> I'll "get stuck" with a very nice EV and continue working on
> designs.
Fortunately, you didn't list making a living off of the conversions as a
goal ;^> As others have been happy to point out, the conversion
business has historically proven to be a very effective means of turning
a large pile of money into a much smaller pile ;^>
That said, it seems to me that your immediate goal is to recover your
conversion cost (not including labour), and if you are unable to do so,
to end up with a conversion that will satisfy your or your wife's
commuting needs. This seems quite reasonable.
> I initially planned on the first one to be low-budget (DC/Pb) and
> another to be high-end (AC/Li) but I'm considering AC/Pb right now.
> That makes $30K almost impossible but I'm still trying to price all of
> the options (I sent requests to ElectroAuto and MetricMind for
> Solectria, Siemens and MES systems).
My *opinion* on the conversion subject is that it is difficult to find
buyers for a vehicle that costs significantly more than in ICE trim,
especially with the range limitations of most affordable EVs. I think
Jerry's suggestion of offering an electric version of a kit car has
merit, but it seems most kitcars are replicas of sports/racing models
from years past; to sell such an EV would, I think, push you into having
to offer a higher performance/cost vehicle than you might otherwise.
This is not necessarily a huge problem, but you need to figure out who
your target market is. I tend to think it is a more reasonable approach
to convert a modestly powered economy-type car since it is then possible
to offer similar or superior performance (excluding range, of course) to
the ICE version. This also helps to target the vehicle to the sort of
application that present EVs are best suited for: urban commutes.
I think that an AC/Pb based vehicle makes good sense. I think that DC
drivetrains in on-road Evs are too fragile/failure-prone in the hands of
the general public. Sure, your Zilla may be bulletproof, but the user
will still fry the motor running it at too low an RPM for proper
cooling, or holding the vehicle on a hill by lightly pressing on the
throttle, etc. The AC approach also allows you to offer a shift-less
driving experience despite using a manual tranny donor for maximum
efficiency. If you plan to eventually go to an AC drive anyway, it is
probably a better investment to develop a conversion kit based on this
from the start and, to the largest extent possible, plan the battery
pack as something that can be upgraded as a module.
> I know Zillas are 6 months out and I will order one anyway,
> and I just saw LogiSystems re-engineered Curtis 1221B's that
> I will look into (any feedback on them?). The goal is for
> a daily commuter that will briskly accelerate to 65mph for
> highway use, so range will be secondary.
"Brisk" acceleration is seldom heard in conjunction with "Curtis", and I
would personally stay away from souped up Curtii (I think
"re-engineered" may be being generous ;^). Even the stock Curtis has
difficulty getting the heat out; souping one up will make it that much
worse. Once you add the cost of the required heatsink, and a rev
limiter to the cost of a Curtis, it would be false economy to not buy a
Z1kLV instead.
I think the most challenging hurdle facing you may be the concerns of
potential buyers with respect to service and warranty on their "new"
car. You will need to verify how much of the warranty will be voided by
your conversion (one benefit to converting an older vehicle - it's out
of warranty anyway), and whether or not local dealers will service the
non-EV portions of the vehicle.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
you could add the capacitor; *but they are big and expensive*
Darin - MetroMPG.com wrote:
That I didn't know. Out of curiosity, is it easy to say roughly
how big (& how many)?
Like the post that Lawrence quoted says; the more capacitance, the
better it works, but the more they cost. You have to experimentally find
out how much is "enough" in your particular situation.
Physically, these capacitors will probably wind up the size of a 12 oz
Coke can, with 6-12 of them in parallel, to provide something like
10,000 to 100,000 microfarads.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> At a swag, I'd guess that it should do the 4 miles...for
>> about 6-12 months before the batteries died.
>
> They'll do the 4mi round trip easily. I'm running 10YTs in my ~2000lb
> car and despite consuming about 2x the Wh/mi as I should, I still manage
> an 8mi commute (each way, but I charge at work).
Yes, but are you charging them with a BC-20?
I suspect his actual range (when new) to 80% DoD will be somewhere around
10 miles, so I don't think the 4 mile trip is the main issue. Just that
his stated setup will be hard on AGMs
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Grr, I though about it some more after hitting the send key.
>
> I see what you are trying for. Adding inductance to slow the
> inrush of current through the SCR when it turns on. Sort
> changing it from a square wave to a truncated sawtooth.
Exactly. Remember, in a higher frequency controller the motor current
remains continuous, and simply tapers "slightly" down during the off
portion of the cycle. With these low frequency controllers, the motor
current can easily decay to 0A before the switch turns on again.
Anything you can do to keep the motor loop current from hitting 0A
before the switch turns on will reduce the ripple seen by the batteries
since they don't have to "inject" as much current to get the motor loop
curent back up.
> THe duty cycle would have to increase somewhat to compensate,
> and the turn OFF will still be abrupt.
I don't see why the duty cycle has to change, but if it did remember
that this is open loop control and so the difference would simply be
that one would use a very slightly different throttle position for a
given driving condition with the inductor in place than without.
Turn off of the SCR will still be abrupt, yes. Just as it is in modern
controllers.
> I'm still pretty sure that it will cause problems with the SCR though.
Nope. The EV-1 uses large commutating capacitors to force a reverse
current through the SCR to oppose the battery current and allow it to
turn off. As long as the controller is operated within its original
current ratings these caps should be capable of forcing the SCR to turn
off.
Bear in mind that we are talking about very small inductances here, uH.
The external inductance simply makes the smallish EV motor look more
like a nice large fork lift motor.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
