EV Digest 6293
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Free energy, etc.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV's can compete with ICE's
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Relay Polarity
by "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) PTC Heater fuse
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: A better aero way, Re: a way to lower aerodynamic drag
by "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Hub motor 72 volt speed test video from UK
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: A better aero way, Re: a way to lower aerodynamic drag
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Price, availability Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Some of the more recent members of the EVDL may not know that many years ago
the membership decided by consensus that the list would NOT discuss "free
energy" and "over unity" topics.
Please use this list to discuss vehicles powered by verifiable, practical
sources of electricity. There are other newsgroups and forums that are
dedicated to the topics mentioned above, and those are the proper places to
discuss them.
We all appreciate your cooperation in keeping the list focused. Thanks!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry, I'm concerned that you're setting yourself up for the same kind of
problems that have plagued nearly every other EV vendor in my memory.
Because inadequate range is the greatest concern of most potential buyers,
nearly ALL commercial builders and converters have made claims that could be
demonstrated only under the most favorable conditions - sometimes not even
then.
When you promote your Freedom EV, I hope you quote figures backed by DOE
and/or EPA measurement standards. I hope that when your owners chat about
their experiences on the 'net, they can honestly say that they are getting
that range and that speed in the real world.
I say this not to be confrontational but out of a desire to see you succeed.
IMO, it's much better to underpromise and overdeliver than to claim the
vehicle's most promising figures and then have to backpedal.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did the intelligent thing and called Kilovac to ask. It turns out that
you
are completely correct. There are magnetic blow-outs, and the "-" stud
goes
to the "-" battery pole. I've only been wiring things up for 35 years,
and
I still can't get that +/- thing with batteries the right away around.
Why
should sources be backwards from sinks?
Brian
Ummm, because a source is the opposite of a sink?
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 120v system and a single 96v heater core. What fuse should I
use and where can I get them?
Thanks,
Rich
94 S10 conversion
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Back in the sixties, one of the car builders for stock car racing added a
vinyl roof cover to their car, to improve aerodynamics. According to legend,
it work very well, until it blew off.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "dale henderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: A better aero way, Re: a way to lower aerodynamic drag
Speaking of golf balls and better aero, Myers motors
[www.myersmotors.com] has been adding large 'golf ball bumps' to the rear
of their cars. They said it helped with stability, but did not say
anything about improved range. It's a fun little car to drive
jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Matt and All,
Riblets designed from shark skin do work in water
and aircraft at high mach numbers but not for cars at car
speeds.
It dies it by as said before, making a layer of
slow air next to the skin to lubicate the air above it to
keep it attached.
A golf ball does another trick which is the bumps
are meant to seperate the air from the rear of the ball as
it flys before they turn into diverging vortex's by allowing
the air to seperate just after the widest point.
Air drag is how much air an object drags,
accelerates with it as it moves. If the object parts the air
and lets it come back together close behind it, has the
lowest drag. objects that trun the air behind them quickly,
turn the air into diverging vortex's which spread out,
dragging, accelerating a lot of air behind it and that takes
energy, a lot of it!!
The best place from vortex generators is where the
rear of the EV as starts to turn sharply inward of more the
17deg, I like 13deg because reality, put the generators just
before this angle so the air can seperate cleanly before the
diverging vortexes are created. The air will then converge
somewhere behind it in an aerodynamic cone, greatly lowering
drag.
You could put yarn taped to just before the rear
and drive, will tell you just where the air turns to
diverging vortex's.
If the Scion is the boxy one, the rear isn't your
aero problem, the upright windshield is. You can help this
by using a airfoil over it that turns the air from going up
to going aft like what some trucks use, though need a good
gap, 4-6 above the roof, curving down forward shape. When
you do this the air will form a bubble in front of it to
fair the front would help the most. But not a good higher
speed EV starting point. The Sedan version looks good
though.
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Matthew Milliron
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: a way to lower aerodynamic drag
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:17:53 -0600
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 04:23:20 -0700, you wrote:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: a way to lower aerodynamic drag
From: Geopilot
http://www.fraunhofer.de/fhg/EN/press/pi/2006/12/ResearchNews12-2006-Topic4.jsp
As fast as a shark in water
With the help of tiny ridge-like structures in their
scales, sharks are able to minimize drag when swimming. A
new coating system takes advantage of this "riblet
effect" to improve the aerodynamics of vehicles and
aircraft.
Scales have a beneficial effect on the speed at which
fish swim: tiny ridges arranged parallel to the swimming
direction, known as "riblets", reduce drag in water.
This
riblet effect, which has been known to scientists and
engineers for more than 50 years, can also be utilized by
ships and other means of transport: Films with a suitable
structure can be applied to their outer surfaces to reduce
frictional resistance and thus bring down fuel
consumption.
The problem is that these films can only be applied to
flat or convex surfaces, but bodies whose aerodynamic or
hydrodynamic properties have been optimized tend to have
a more complex shape. The alternative to coating with a
film is to texture the surface itself with riblets.
However, none of the laser or milling techniques which
have been employed so far are suitable for components that
have to be painted, as the paint would immediately flow
into the tiny grooves and fill them.
Dr. Volkmar Stenzel of the Fraunhofer Institute for
Manufacturing Engineering and Applied Materials Research
IFAM thus came up with the idea of integrating the riblet
pattern into the lacquer itself. "That meant we had to
look for a tool which didn't adhere to the lacquer, so
that it could impress the required structure onto it,"
explains Stenzel. A prototype has now been created,
combining a suitable lacquer and the technology for
applying it. The novelty is that an approximately 20 cm
wide transparent silicone film with a riblet pattern
serves as a "stamp". This is capable of printing
patterns
with a resolution of a few nanometers, similar to those
found in holograms, onto surfaces. The film runs over
three flexible rollers and can thus adapt its shape to
hug uneven surfaces. >From the front, a new type of resin
lacquer is continuously sprayed onto the film and
transferred with the help of the rollers onto the surface
to be treated. A UV lamp then hardens the resin in a
fraction of a second. Because of the extremely fast
application and hardening process, the riblet structure
is retained.
"Our trial lacquer is based on the chemistry used in
aviation paints. It is mechanically very durable and,"
Stenzel hopes, "should also be resistant to strong UV
radiation at high altitude." A field trial will soon
show
whether the lacquer fulfills its promise in practice.
However, applications for the new coating system are not
restricted to the aviation industry, as Stenzel stresses:
"With this technology we can apply any other micro and
nano structures to lacquered surfaces."
These also sound like vortex generators.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf
They are also used to clean up airflow around the wings of
small airplanes.
http://www.microaero.com/
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
check out my blog:
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
---------------------------------
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rich,
This depends on the wattage of your heater unit is.
Take the total wattage of the unit and divide it by the rated voltage.
Lets say it's a 1500 watt unit at 120 volts. The 1500/120 = 12.5 amps.
If you use a standard 3AG normal blow fuse of 12.5 amp rating it will blow,
because its at the maximum load rating.
We normally take the maximum load rating times a 1.25 factor or 12.5 x 1.25
= 15.625 amp.
Now if you use a standard normal blow fuse of 15 amps, it may hold for
awhile, even for a year or two because of the initial surge of a heater
unit.
Therefore you can get by with a 15 amp slow blow fuse rated at 125 or 250
volts. These slow blow fuses are normally call fustrons by Bussman Fuse Co.
They are a duel element which are design for a short and a overload.
Or go to the next size fuse which would be a 20 amp in a normal blow rating.
I prefer the FO9B size fuses instead of the 3AG size. The FO9B size fuse is
1-1/2 inch long by 3/8 inch dia. This type of fuses are install in all
kinds of industrial fuse holders. The fuse holder I am using is rated for
250 volts at 30 amps which holds the fuses in very tight. Each fuse has its
own fuse holder built in, that indicates if the fuse is loose or blown.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Long" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 6:42 AM
Subject: PTC Heater fuse
> I have a 120v system and a single 96v heater core. What fuse should I
> use and where can I get them?
>
> Thanks,
> Rich
> 94 S10 conversion
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm .. I agree .. to a point. I am with Chris in that I *feel* that
magnets do have some interesting properties .. From time to time I find
myself thinking about how it might be possible to make magnets spin
without adding additional energy. Though I am aware of the physical laws,
it's just tempting to think that it might work ...
[Dream Mode Off]
> Afraid you're beating a dead horse. Force and energy are two entirely
> different things. Putting two opposing poles together is really no
> different than a spring- and you can't make a spring bounce outward
> without compressing it again each time. The answer has been explained
> countless times over the last hundred years or so.
>
> I should mention that while I have no doubt you are well-intentioned,
> discussing getting free energy from magnets, Tesla's free electric car,
> etc are squarely in the realm of quackery and quite off topic for
> electric vehicles which are based on accepted principles of magnetic
> motors, chemical batteries, etc.
>
> Danny
>
> Chris wrote:
>
>>I've manitained for some time that the only energy we need is locked
>>into magnetism. The fact that we can put two opposing poles together
>>and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of power
>>seems to be awry to me.....I'm sure we can crack that nut if we try.
>>I don't know what configurations Steorn are using, some people say
>>it's a scam others believe in it.....all I know is that if it works
>>it would be a great step forward , naturally
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have found that on most bicycles the majority of the weight is on the rear
tire. Motorcycles too. It's the way they are designed for best handling.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "David O'Neel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: Hub motor 72 volt speed test video from UK
> I have mine on the front and it works fine.Ive had it up to 39mph going
full
> out downhill. Mine is only 36V though, with SLA batteries. It works fine
on
> pavement dry or wet. However, the biggest difference is that mine has a
> STREET tire which is smooth and grippy, not an offroad tire with knobbies.
I
> doubt front or rear makes *much* difference at all since the majority of
the
> weight to the wheels is the rider which is positioned between the axles.
Yes
> I understand physics and moments and all that.
>
> Combine twice the voltage, a smaller diameter wheel, and lithium batteries
> and you're talking about 2-3 times the torque on a less capable tire.
Yeah,
> it might slip a bit..
>
> Dave O.
>
> On 1/10/07, Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Why is the hub motor on the front wheel? No wonder
> > they have no traction. Maybe it was much quicker and
> > easier to integrate it on the front hub, but if it was
> > on the back they could have the advantage of running
> > the motor in the most efficient range depending on
> > speed with gearing. They would also have better
> > traction with the weight distribution.
> > I didn't watch the whole video, so maybe they had an
> > explanation.
> > Cool bike EV though.
> > Rod
> > --- Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> >
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1721490376015071704&sourceid=zeitgeist
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> > > Cheap talk?
> > > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
> > > rates.
> > > http://voice.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
Hmm .. I agree .. to a point. I am with Chris in that I *feel* that
magnets do have some interesting properties .. From time to time I find
myself thinking about how it might be possible to make magnets spin
without adding additional energy. Though I am aware of the physical laws,
it's just tempting to think that it might work ...
There are certainly lots of fun things you can build with magnets (like
motors! :-) But playing with them only gets you so far -- to build
anything truly useful, you need to have a basic understanding of how
they work.
It pays to do some studying and some construction. You can build
2-dimensional versions of most motors quite easily. For example, a
single lamination of a rotor and a stator. Your "case" is a piece of
wood. Strip everything out of a little 50 cent toy car motor, so you
just have the bearings and a shaft. Hot glue the motor body to a piece
of wood, and glue your rotor lamination to the external shaft. Bend and
fiddle with it so it rotates true. It should spin very easily, with no
wobble or eccentricity.
Mount a single stator lamination on wood blocks or screws around your
rotor. Add whatever windings, commutators, etc. you need to make the
desired kind of motor.
You'll find that the simplest types of motors (switched reluctance,
hysteresis) have the poorest performance. The ones that are harder to
build produce more speed and torque. That's how it goes!
There are lots of alternate motor designs that haven't been tried, or
that were tried but didn't work enough better to become popular.
Building very simple versions is a quick way to try ideas, and compare
them to existing designs.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris wrote:
I've manitained for some time that the only energy we need is locked
into magnetism. The fact that we can put two opposing poles together
and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of power
seems to be awry to me.....I'm sure we can crack that nut if we try.
Permanent magnets are just like springs. The only way you get energy out
is by putting energy in. Pulling magnets apart requires work -- like
stretching a spring to wind up a clock. Letting them go back together
does work -- like the spring in a clock releasing. You get back exactly
as much energy as you put it (minus a little for efficiency losses).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shoulda used gorilla glue :-)
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 7:14 am, Dave Wilker wrote:
Back in the sixties, one of the car builders for stock car racing added
a vinyl roof cover to their car, to improve aerodynamics. According to
legend, it work very well, until it blew off.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message ----- From: "dale henderson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: A better aero way, Re: a way to lower aerodynamic drag
Speaking of golf balls and better aero, Myers motors
[www.myersmotors.com] has been adding large 'golf ball bumps' to the
rear of their cars. They said it helped with stability, but did not
say anything about improved range. It's a fun little car to drive
jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Matt and All,
Riblets designed from shark skin do work in water
and aircraft at high mach numbers but not for cars at car
speeds.
It dies it by as said before, making a layer of
slow air next to the skin to lubicate the air above it to
keep it attached.
A golf ball does another trick which is the bumps
are meant to seperate the air from the rear of the ball as
it flys before they turn into diverging vortex's by allowing
the air to seperate just after the widest point.
Air drag is how much air an object drags,
accelerates with it as it moves. If the object parts the air
and lets it come back together close behind it, has the
lowest drag. objects that trun the air behind them quickly,
turn the air into diverging vortex's which spread out,
dragging, accelerating a lot of air behind it and that takes
energy, a lot of it!!
The best place from vortex generators is where the
rear of the EV as starts to turn sharply inward of more the
17deg, I like 13deg because reality, put the generators just
before this angle so the air can seperate cleanly before the
diverging vortexes are created. The air will then converge
somewhere behind it in an aerodynamic cone, greatly lowering
drag.
You could put yarn taped to just before the rear
and drive, will tell you just where the air turns to
diverging vortex's.
If the Scion is the boxy one, the rear isn't your
aero problem, the upright windshield is. You can help this
by using a airfoil over it that turns the air from going up
to going aft like what some trucks use, though need a good
gap, 4-6 above the roof, curving down forward shape. When
you do this the air will form a bubble in front of it to
fair the front would help the most. But not a good higher
speed EV starting point. The Sedan version looks good
though.
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Matthew Milliron
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: a way to lower aerodynamic drag
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:17:53 -0600
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 04:23:20 -0700, you wrote:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: a way to lower aerodynamic drag
From: Geopilot
http://www.fraunhofer.de/fhg/EN/press/pi/2006/12/ResearchNews12-2006-Topic4.jsp
As fast as a shark in water
With the help of tiny ridge-like structures in their
scales, sharks are able to minimize drag when swimming. A
new coating system takes advantage of this "riblet
effect" to improve the aerodynamics of vehicles and
aircraft.
Scales have a beneficial effect on the speed at which
fish swim: tiny ridges arranged parallel to the swimming
direction, known as "riblets", reduce drag in water.
This
riblet effect, which has been known to scientists and
engineers for more than 50 years, can also be utilized by
ships and other means of transport: Films with a suitable
structure can be applied to their outer surfaces to reduce
frictional resistance and thus bring down fuel
consumption.
The problem is that these films can only be applied to
flat or convex surfaces, but bodies whose aerodynamic or
hydrodynamic properties have been optimized tend to have
a more complex shape. The alternative to coating with a
film is to texture the surface itself with riblets.
However, none of the laser or milling techniques which
have been employed so far are suitable for components that
have to be painted, as the paint would immediately flow
into the tiny grooves and fill them.
Dr. Volkmar Stenzel of the Fraunhofer Institute for
Manufacturing Engineering and Applied Materials Research
IFAM thus came up with the idea of integrating the riblet
pattern into the lacquer itself. "That meant we had to
look for a tool which didn't adhere to the lacquer, so
that it could impress the required structure onto it,"
explains Stenzel. A prototype has now been created,
combining a suitable lacquer and the technology for
applying it. The novelty is that an approximately 20 cm
wide transparent silicone film with a riblet pattern
serves as a "stamp". This is capable of printing
patterns
with a resolution of a few nanometers, similar to those
found in holograms, onto surfaces. The film runs over
three flexible rollers and can thus adapt its shape to
hug uneven surfaces. >From the front, a new type of resin
lacquer is continuously sprayed onto the film and
transferred with the help of the rollers onto the surface
to be treated. A UV lamp then hardens the resin in a
fraction of a second. Because of the extremely fast
application and hardening process, the riblet structure
is retained.
"Our trial lacquer is based on the chemistry used in
aviation paints. It is mechanically very durable and,"
Stenzel hopes, "should also be resistant to strong UV
radiation at high altitude." A field trial will soon
show
whether the lacquer fulfills its promise in practice.
However, applications for the new coating system are not
restricted to the aviation industry, as Stenzel stresses:
"With this technology we can apply any other micro and
nano structures to lacquered surfaces."
These also sound like vortex generators.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf
They are also used to clean up airflow around the wings of
small airplanes.
http://www.microaero.com/
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
check out my blog:
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
---------------------------------
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't waste your time on this list at least please talking about magent
energy.
At best magnets are magnets batteries that must be filled by dumped many
amps to initially magnetize the material.
It aint free.
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 7:14 am, Michaela Merz wrote:
Hmm .. I agree .. to a point. I am with Chris in that I *feel* that
magnets do have some interesting properties .. From time to time I find
myself thinking about how it might be possible to make magnets spin
without adding additional energy. Though I am aware of the physical
laws,
it's just tempting to think that it might work ...
[Dream Mode Off]
Afraid you're beating a dead horse. Force and energy are two entirely
different things. Putting two opposing poles together is really no
different than a spring- and you can't make a spring bounce outward
without compressing it again each time. The answer has been explained
countless times over the last hundred years or so.
I should mention that while I have no doubt you are well-intentioned,
discussing getting free energy from magnets, Tesla's free electric
car,
etc are squarely in the realm of quackery and quite off topic for
electric vehicles which are based on accepted principles of magnetic
motors, chemical batteries, etc.
Danny
Chris wrote:
I've manitained for some time that the only energy we need is locked
into magnetism. The fact that we can put two opposing poles together
and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of power
seems to be awry to me.....I'm sure we can crack that nut if we try.
I don't know what configurations Steorn are using, some people say
it's a scam others believe in it.....all I know is that if it works
it would be a great step forward , naturally
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I've manitained for some time that the only energy we need is locked
> into magnetism.
> The fact that we can put two opposing poles together
> and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of power
> seems to be awry to me.
Well then you have an inadiquate understanding of physics.
Magnetism is Force. Force does NOT equal energy, it's only part of the
equation.
The full equation is: Force x Motion x Time = Energy
The part you are ignoring is "we can put two opposing poles together".
So all you get out, is the magnetic force reversing the "motion" YOU
inserted into the objects.
Basically all you have done is used the magnetic field to store a tiny bit
of energy. All that you get back is that same energy you put in, minus
losses.
Magnetic force is basically an invisible spring. Like a spring you can
use it to STORE a small amount of energy. Like a spring you can get this
small amount of energy back, but only to the extend of the field (i.e. the
length of the spring). You get one "push" and that's it.
There is no energy in magnetic fields other than the small amount of
potential energy you can store in it by pushing two magnetic fields
together.
No matter how you do it, it takes energy to put the fields close together
and this is the full extent of the energy you can get out. Well actually
you get a little bit less out because of losses.
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- Begin Message ---
>> The fact that we can put two opposing poles together
>> and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of power
>> seems to be awry to me.
>
> Well then you have an inadiquate understanding of physics.
Rereading this, I can see that it might appear insulting. This was not my
intention. My point is that you need to study physics more.
(And I need to study spelling more, among other things)
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
I think we have neglected gravity as a power source, there is so much of
it around we just don't think about it, it is a huge untapped resource.
We need to put a big magnet on the moon, so when it rotates around the
earth we can use its magnetic field to charge a big coil on the earth,
and thus use the moon as a part of a motor.
The oil companies are preventing us from doing it, Tezla proved it was
possible in 1910, but Standard Oil crushed his research program by
hiring away all his assistants, and GM slandered his reputation until he
committed suicide in 1925.
Seriously, if demand for electricity goes way up, the price will go up
also. Even without EVs due to population growth, electricity demand has
and will continue to go up. And we've tapped about all the hydro we
can. We have vast quantities of Coal in the US, and we can make it
clean burning but at big expense.
Really solar power is the best vast untapped resource we have, and
global warming means we need to extract it to keep the planet cool. :)
Jack
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The fact that we can put two opposing poles together
and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of power
seems to be awry to me.
Well then you have an inadiquate understanding of physics.
Rereading this, I can see that it might appear insulting. This was not my
intention. My point is that you need to study physics more.
(And I need to study spelling more, among other things)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can already spin a big gyroscope on earth and when the earth rotates
have the gyro (which will try to stay in one orientation) pull a piston
or turn a wheel.
It has been patented.
And remember every waterfall turbine is a gravity generator. The suns
heat raises the water as vapor and we harness the force of its gravity
on its way back down.
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:15 am, Jack Murray wrote:
I think we have neglected gravity as a power source, there is so much
of it around we just don't think about it, it is a huge untapped
resource.
We need to put a big magnet on the moon, so when it rotates around the
earth we can use its magnetic field to charge a big coil on the earth,
and thus use the moon as a part of a motor.
The oil companies are preventing us from doing it, Tezla proved it was
possible in 1910, but Standard Oil crushed his research program by
hiring away all his assistants, and GM slandered his reputation until
he committed suicide in 1925.
Seriously, if demand for electricity goes way up, the price will go up
also. Even without EVs due to population growth, electricity demand
has and will continue to go up. And we've tapped about all the hydro
we can. We have vast quantities of Coal in the US, and we can make it
clean burning but at big expense.
Really solar power is the best vast untapped resource we have, and
global warming means we need to extract it to keep the planet cool. :)
Jack
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The fact that we can put two opposing poles together
and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of power
seems to be awry to me.
Well then you have an inadiquate understanding of physics.
Rereading this, I can see that it might appear insulting. This was
not my
intention. My point is that you need to study physics more.
(And I need to study spelling more, among other things)
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The initial turn-on current can be quite high for these ceramic
heater elements. Once they warm up just a bit, the resistance climbs
and the current goes down. Also, when you have a freshly-charged
pack, the voltage can be quite a bit higher than normal, so the
current will increase too.
These elements generally have quite a few taps (like 5) on
the side of them that allows you to select the wattage/resistance
that suits you best by series/parallel combination. Thus, within
limits, you can pick the wattage that you want.
Keep in mind that the unit is designed to work on 120 VAC
RMS at about 12 amps, giving about 1500 watts. I think this ends up
with the center tap + and the end taps at -, but I could easily be mistaken.
If you have a 144 volt car, figure on at least a 20 amp slow
blow fuse to run the heater at its full rating. If you need to go
over 20 amps, you can't get that fuse in a 1/4" size with the DC
voltage rating you MUST have. Don't make the common mistake of trying
to use a fuse that does not have a DC rating at or above the pack
voltage. You will get a fire, or at least a burned fuse holder if you
do. (Ask me how I know.)
Bill Dube'
At 07:58 AM 1/12/2007, you wrote:
Hello Rich,
This depends on the wattage of your heater unit is.
Take the total wattage of the unit and divide it by the rated voltage.
Lets say it's a 1500 watt unit at 120 volts. The 1500/120 = 12.5 amps.
If you use a standard 3AG normal blow fuse of 12.5 amp rating it will blow,
because its at the maximum load rating.
We normally take the maximum load rating times a 1.25 factor or 12.5 x 1.25
= 15.625 amp.
Now if you use a standard normal blow fuse of 15 amps, it may hold for
awhile, even for a year or two because of the initial surge of a heater
unit.
Therefore you can get by with a 15 amp slow blow fuse rated at 125 or 250
volts. These slow blow fuses are normally call fustrons by Bussman Fuse Co.
They are a duel element which are design for a short and a overload.
Or go to the next size fuse which would be a 20 amp in a normal blow rating.
I prefer the FO9B size fuses instead of the 3AG size. The FO9B size fuse is
1-1/2 inch long by 3/8 inch dia. This type of fuses are install in all
kinds of industrial fuse holders. The fuse holder I am using is rated for
250 volts at 30 amps which holds the fuses in very tight. Each fuse has its
own fuse holder built in, that indicates if the fuse is loose or blown.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Long" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 6:42 AM
Subject: PTC Heater fuse
> I have a 120v system and a single 96v heater core. What fuse should I
> use and where can I get them?
>
> Thanks,
> Rich
> 94 S10 conversion
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sure you're well intentioned too, and perhaps a bit overly
serious ?
There is great difference between a magnet and a spring, a spring is
connected along it's entirity, magnetic forces can be invoked from
elements with a space between them which allows them a freedom of
movement and orientation whch a spring just cannot manage.
There are methods of steering magnetism to direct the forces so that
a greater force is created than should be able to be achieved from
the ammount of energy which was required to steer the magnetic force.
An example of that was the famous Astronauts boots, the 'Radus boots'
A small battery pack provided enoguh energy to allow an astronaut to
be suspended upside down, the current draw was very small and less
than if you had to make electromagnets to achieve the same effect.
Any talk of a free-powered Tesla was started by you first. I'm not so
stupid.
If you are looking for subject to ridicule, burn yourself out here !
http://www.cheniere.org/misc/astroboots.htm
Best Regards
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Afraid you're beating a dead horse. Force and energy are two
entirely
> different things. Putting two opposing poles together is really no
> different than a spring- and you can't make a spring bounce outward
> without compressing it again each time. The answer has been
explained
> countless times over the last hundred years or so.
>
> I should mention that while I have no doubt you are well-
intentioned,
> discussing getting free energy from magnets, Tesla's free electric
car,
> etc are squarely in the realm of quackery and quite off topic for
> electric vehicles which are based on accepted principles of
magnetic
> motors, chemical batteries, etc.
>
> Danny
>
> Chris wrote:
>
> >I've manitained for some time that the only energy we need is
locked
> >into magnetism. The fact that we can put two opposing poles
together
> >and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of
power
> >seems to be awry to me.....I'm sure we can crack that nut if we
try.
> >I don't know what configurations Steorn are using, some people say
> >it's a scam others believe in it.....all I know is that if it
works
> >it would be a great step forward , naturally
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Roland. I ordered some F09B 20 amp, 250v fuses and a holder
from Surplus Sales of Nebraska.
On Fri, 2007-01-12 at 07:58 -0700, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Hello Rich,
>
> This depends on the wattage of your heater unit is.
>
> Take the total wattage of the unit and divide it by the rated voltage.
>
> Lets say it's a 1500 watt unit at 120 volts. The 1500/120 = 12.5 amps.
>
> If you use a standard 3AG normal blow fuse of 12.5 amp rating it will blow,
> because its at the maximum load rating.
>
> We normally take the maximum load rating times a 1.25 factor or 12.5 x 1.25
> = 15.625 amp.
>
> Now if you use a standard normal blow fuse of 15 amps, it may hold for
> awhile, even for a year or two because of the initial surge of a heater
> unit.
>
> Therefore you can get by with a 15 amp slow blow fuse rated at 125 or 250
> volts. These slow blow fuses are normally call fustrons by Bussman Fuse Co.
> They are a duel element which are design for a short and a overload.
>
> Or go to the next size fuse which would be a 20 amp in a normal blow rating.
>
> I prefer the FO9B size fuses instead of the 3AG size. The FO9B size fuse is
> 1-1/2 inch long by 3/8 inch dia. This type of fuses are install in all
> kinds of industrial fuse holders. The fuse holder I am using is rated for
> 250 volts at 30 amps which holds the fuses in very tight. Each fuse has its
> own fuse holder built in, that indicates if the fuse is loose or blown.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Long" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 6:42 AM
> Subject: PTC Heater fuse
>
>
> > I have a 120v system and a single 96v heater core. What fuse should I
> > use and where can I get them?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rich
> > 94 S10 conversion
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Chris and All,
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> >
> >If the world suffered some catastrophy and we needed to
> >communicate, hand wound or pedalled generators become the
> >fuel stations to keep us going, no matter how much you
> >pedal you cannot make oil, but you can make a surprising
> >ammount of electricity.
>
> Wrong on both points badly. Pedal power doesn't get
> it for more than a few wthrs.
Not enough for a car, but I wasn't talkign about cars.....( but being
an EV list I guess I see the confusion !), pedalling or winding
yields enough to run a radio, operate a gps, charge a battery for a
lamp, and so on.
>
> Except in a few places like, as Bob says, Corupticit,
> electric prices are very reasonable. If you don't believe
> me, make some of your own. Like in sailboats, while the
> energy may be free, it costs a lot to catch it.
Yes it's a shame we come back to cost so often in ur civilised
society, where we often state we do things for the greater good , as
long as it suits the wallet !
>
> >
> >We need to get the investment made quickly and in a
> >sizeable ammount in renewables, either home renewables or
> >centralised public renewables. If we don't we make the
> >future much more expensive.
>
> We'd do much better going to conservation, eff
> instead will do much more in the short term.
>
>
We're on our way to conservation. Is it enough though. I think that
because of the fact that we get so many medicines and fertilisers
from oil we make ourselves look less than intelligent by burning most
of it off !...One day when those alien anthropologists come they will
ask some awkward questions........obviously I'm joking, and aren't
intending to start an alien discussion.
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