EV Digest 6294
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Charging current...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: [EV] Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: [EV] Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: PWM Module for fan
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: [EV] Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) [EV] Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [EV] Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Charging current...
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: PWM Module for fan
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: PWM Module for fan
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Zilla available for sale
by EVSource <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Aluminum batteries
by "Dr. Michael Polsinelli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Aluminum batteries
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: PWM Module for fan
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Aluminum batteries
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) EV and Ethanol fuel cell in a do-it-yourself world
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: EV and Ethanol fuel cell in a do-it-yourself world
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: EV and Ethanol fuel cell in a do-it-yourself world
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps I do need to study more than just physics....
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> >> The fact that we can put two opposing poles together
> >> and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of
power
> >> seems to be awry to me.
> >
> > Well then you have an inadiquate understanding of physics.
>
> Rereading this, I can see that it might appear insulting. This was
not my
> intention. My point is that you need to study physics more.
> (And I need to study spelling more, among other things)
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of
legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess I should turn my charging current down just a tad....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-412063149614230646&q=electric+arc&hl=en
:)
Ken
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free
AOL Mail and more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You left out tidal power. Tides are powered by the kinetic energy of
the Earth's rotation, linked by the force of gravity to the moon so the
difference in velocity can be exploited.
Gyro power? Oh that's bizzare. I mean a gyro has its axis turn one
full rotation a day and the force is limited by just how massive and
fast you make that gyro. Not sure how you could get a useful amount of
power out of this scheme. But, interesting thought.
Technically oil is solar power.... sunlight stores chemical energy in
living things which later becomes oil.
Danny
GWMobile wrote:
You can already spin a big gyroscope on earth and when the earth
rotates have the gyro (which will try to stay in one orientation) pull
a piston or turn a wheel.
It has been patented.
And remember every waterfall turbine is a gravity generator. The suns
heat raises the water as vapor and we harness the force of its gravity
on its way back down.
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:15 am, Jack Murray wrote:
I think we have neglected gravity as a power source, there is so much
of it around we just don't think about it, it is a huge untapped
resource.
We need to put a big magnet on the moon, so when it rotates around
the earth we can use its magnetic field to charge a big coil on the
earth, and thus use the moon as a part of a motor.
The oil companies are preventing us from doing it, Tezla proved it
was possible in 1910, but Standard Oil crushed his research program
by hiring away all his assistants, and GM slandered his reputation
until he committed suicide in 1925.
Seriously, if demand for electricity goes way up, the price will go
up also. Even without EVs due to population growth, electricity
demand has and will continue to go up. And we've tapped about all
the hydro we can. We have vast quantities of Coal in the US, and we
can make it clean burning but at big expense.
Really solar power is the best vast untapped resource we have, and
global warming means we need to extract it to keep the planet cool. :)
Jack
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The fact that we can put two opposing poles together
and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of power
seems to be awry to me.
Well then you have an inadiquate understanding of physics.
Rereading this, I can see that it might appear insulting. This was
not my
intention. My point is that you need to study physics more.
(And I need to study spelling more, among other things)
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Technically oil is solar power.... sunlight stores chemical energy in
> living things which later becomes oil.
>
Technically everything in the earth is solar power, except for nuclear,
right?
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://e.nn.cl | Weird Al
http://ev.nn.cl |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Although we can and should discuss the energy that our EVs use, the EVDL
isn't really an appropriate venue for discussing general alternative energy
topics. However, some of these (though probably not free energy, overunity,
and perpetual motion ;-) may be welcome on the AEDL (Alternative Energy
Discussion List), also found on the SJSU servers. To join, send a message
with the text
subscribe AE firstname lastname
to the address
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
There are a few people on the EVDL who may be products of damaged education
systems, and who don't understand such basic physics as conservation of
energy. These ideas aren't as intuitive as they may seem, while the
arguments of free energy proponents can be seductive (if wrong).
For those who >do< understand physics it's often tempting to try to bring
these people up to speed with a reply on list. Please don't. Again, >this
is not the place<. It also tends to lead to defensive responses and flame
wars. Contact them by private email if you must, but please don't just hit
"reply."
Again, I thank you for helping to keep the EVDL focused on EVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jan 10, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
Paul G. wrote:
This falls to the question - what would it take to have affordable
DC>DC converters in the 60 to 100 amp range? There are issues - input
voltages, output currents, and small number of customers.
I haven't seen anyone else respond, so I'll offer my opinion that the
biggest issue is the small number of customers. For lower input
voltages, check out Surepower's <http://www.surepower.com/conv.html>
offerings <http://www.surepower.com/pdf/converterflyer.pdf>. At 24V
in,
they offer up to 100A @ 12V out, and they have DC/DCs for up to 96V
packs (the higher input voltage models aren't listed, so I'm not sure
what output currents are available).
I've looked at those. Its an interesting option. If the EV had a large
24 volt battery and a 24>12v converter (set to around 13.5v) you could
run without a DC>DC converter on the battery pack and have good strong
"12" volt system. Of course you would need a 24 volt battery bank and
charger for the EV.
Curtis has DC/DCs (300W nominal/375W peak; about 27A @ 13.5V peak) for
packs up to 144V
(<http://www.curtisinstruments.com/index.cfm?
fuseaction=cDatasheets.dspL
istDS&CatID=5&siteID=1>), which are packaged for the
underhood/automotive environment.
I'm not seeing the needed input voltage range(s) with the kind of
output current newer vehicles require. Right now it seems that the Iota
DLS-55 is a common choice, but only over a narrow voltage range.
People willing to "roll their own" can certainly start with Vicor
modules, such as the Maxi series for 500W/per module. Use the 300V
nominal input part for packs in the 204-276V nominal range or the 375V
part for packs of 284-314V nominal. Or, look to the MegaMod series for
600W output, using the 150V input part for packs of 114-148V nominal
and
the 300V part for 228-296V nominal packs. (My pack voltage ranges are
conservative as they assume the DC/DC remains connected while charging,
etc.) 600W corresponds to about 43A @ 13.8V out.
Those are interesting options. My understanding is that Vicor modules
are pricey when you want a small number. If someone where to package
these up with the stuff needed to be an EV DC>DC they may find a
market. Of course its still a small market, but if designed as a
scaleable system quite a range of input voltages and output current
needs could be satisfied with a handful of Vicor part numbers. The
input range seems to cover everything except 149-203 volts (156 volts
is a common build) and EVs under 114 volts.
What's your thought on affordable for something like this? How much
more are you willing to pay for something that is packaged [more]
appropriately for the automotive environment (e.g. a Surepower or
Curtis
unit vs an unsealed Todd-style unit)?
Here is another split in the market :-) I can install them inside the
vehicle (under a protective cover, perhaps in the trunk...) if the only
problem is reasonable environmental protection. They (Todd, Iota) are
designed to be mounted inside motor-homes and trailers - I can copy
that level of protection in a passenger car. My concern is the lack of
offerings for EVs that aren't either 120v to 144v or 240v to 288v. If
the voltage range is right an Iota converter(s) can work fine and is
available for an attractive price.
What if I want to build a 192 volt EV? DC>DCs seem to be setting the
voltages instead of user need (range targets, motor rpm targets, space
available, and other EV build issues.) I'd gladly pay double what a
similar amp Iota cost and it can still be packaged like a travel
trailer AC>DC converter.
It looks like solarseller could set a person up with 150 amps of Iota
DC>DC (2, 75 amp units plus a bridge circuit to use them in parallel)
for around $600. This should be suitable for a late model EV conversion
with power everything; but, we don't all build 120 to 144 volt EVs.
Paul "neon" G.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And we are all made of old stars
This zen is killing me :-)
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 1:45 pm, Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
Technically oil is solar power.... sunlight stores chemical energy in
living things which later becomes oil.
Technically everything in the earth is solar power, except for nuclear,
right?
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://e.nn.cl | Weird Al
http://ev.nn.cl |
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Although we can and should discuss the energy that our EVs use, the
EVDL
> isn't really an appropriate venue for discussing general
alternative energy
> topics. However, some of these (though probably not free energy,
overunity,
> and perpetual motion ;-) may be welcome on the AEDL (Alternative
Energy
> Discussion List), also found on the SJSU servers. To join, send a
message
> with the text
>
> subscribe AE firstname lastname
>
> to the address
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> There are a few people on the EVDL who may be products of damaged
education
> systems, and who don't understand such basic physics as
conservation of
> energy.
Surely it is less abrasive to not be so personal about a person's
education, and assume that you may be in a position which affords you
a superior attitude. It may well be the case that you are very well
educated and may possibly be able to explain sonoluminscence....but
is creating the impression that your eductaion may be superior at the
expense of others having to lose face really what a good education is
all about ?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
geothermal energy comes from the hot earth core, so it isn't based on
the suns energy. that's all we really need to do, is dig very deep
holes in the earth and we can tap more energy than we could ever use.
everyone can do this at home too, just have a "energy well" at your house.
ok, I'll now heed moderators advice, and stop.
GWMobile wrote:
And we are all made of old stars
This zen is killing me :-)
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 1:45 pm, Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
Technically oil is solar power.... sunlight stores chemical energy in
living things which later becomes oil.
Technically everything in the earth is solar power, except for nuclear,
right?
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://e.nn.cl | Weird Al
http://ev.nn.cl |
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess I should turn my charging current down just a tad....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-412063149614230646&q=electric+arc&h
l=en
The SF6 switch failed (if you slow the movie down, you can see one phase arc
over). The next thing that happens is the disconnects (the part of the
breaker that you can actually see open) break contact, but the arc continues
until the switching station upstream opens the breaker feeding this line -
the arc jumps to one of the other phases. Normally the current should not be
flowing by the time the isolators swing open.
It's actually a dummy load - no EV's were being charged with this when it
went crazy. Here's the story from the guy running the video camera:
http://www.wiseguysynth.com/larry/day.htm
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jan 12, 2007, at 9:47 AM, Bill Dube wrote:
If you have a 144 volt car, figure on at least a 20 amp slow
blow fuse to run the heater at its full rating. If you need to go over
20 amps, you can't get that fuse in a 1/4" size with the DC voltage
rating you MUST have. Don't make the common mistake of trying to use a
fuse that does not have a DC rating at or above the pack voltage. You
will get a fire, or at least a burned fuse holder if you do. (Ask me
how I know.)
The 25 and 30 amp MDA Bussman fuses are UL recognized, but not listed
(like the 20 amp and lower.) They are both rated to break 10,000 amps
DC (off the the manufacturers spec sheet.) I have used the 30 amp fuses
with success (that is, they cleared my stupidity with grace.)
Bill is quite correct about using *only* DC rated fuses in the EV pack.
A solid short (failed part) can turn an AC rated fuse into flying glass
- and that is when the load clears wide traces off its circuit board to
help cut the power! I don't go there anymore!
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
> > People willing to "roll their own" can certainly start
> > with Vicor modules
> Those are interesting options. My understanding is that Vicor
> modules are pricey when you want a small number.
This comes back to my suggestion that it is the relatively small demand
for such a product that is the real issue. *Anything* produced in a
small number is going to be pricey, either because of building it from
pricey modules or because of only building a small number from scratch.
> The input range seems to cover everything except 149-203 volts
> (156 volts is a common build) and EVs under 114 volts.
If someone were to pursue this approach, I would suggest that the way to
do it might be to contact Vicor and confirm that their HI-HAM PFC
universal input modules will operate from DC as well as AC. (This is
common for PFC front ends, but the datasheet doesn't actually mention
feeding it from DC.) Throwing a VI-HAMD module (universal input PFC
driver w/o internal bridge rectifier) in front of a 375V input MAXI
module yields a 600W DC/DC that should accept just about any pack in the
120-300VDC range, perhaps going higher if one disconnects the DC/DC
while charging. Using a VI-HAMD and VI-BAMD (booster version) in front
of a driver/booster pair of MAXI modules yields your desired 1200W DC/DC
with a wide input range.
In onesies, this might still cost $600-800 just for the 4 modules
required for a 1200W version (this is a total WAG), but if someone were
willing to gamble on there being a modest market for such a product and
bought parts for perhaps 10 at a time, the cost might drop appreciably.
> Here is another split in the market :-) I can install them
> inside the vehicle (under a protective cover, perhaps in the
> trunk...) if the only problem is reasonable environmental
> protection.
But, of course, it isn't ;^>
There are the issues of allowing adequate cooling, and keeping high
voltage wiring out of the cabin, etc. There is also the question of
reliability... I've seen several dead Todds, while the Vicors are
spec'ed for decent life over temp, humidity, etc.
> What if I want to build a 192 volt EV? DC>DCs seem to be setting
> the voltages instead of user need (range targets, motor rpm
> targets, space available, and other EV build issues.) I'd gladly
> pay double what a similar amp Iota cost and it can still be
> packaged like a travel trailer AC>DC converter.
Well, you're in luck then! ;^> If the Vicor HI-HAM input modules eat DC
as happily as rectified AC, then a homebrewed 1200W DC/DC should be
possible at this level (~$1200, or 2x the $600 150A Iota cost).
While I don't mean to try to dissuade anyone from installing a high-amp
DC/DC like this, I question if it is really the best, or even a
cost-effective approach. What is the typical continuous load on the 12V
system of a late model conversion? Surely the 100A+ you refer to is
more of a peak scenario?
My personal view is that there is significant wisdom in having a 12V
house battery for safety (in addition to the DC/DC, not instead of it),
and given the relatively short driving time of most conversions, even
100A continuous load is only 50Ah over a typical 30min operating time.
Offset this with a reasonably beefy (~30A/600W) DC/DC, and it decreases
to about 35Ah from the aux battery over 30min. A deep cycle group 31
house battery and a 600W-ish DC/DC seems like a very attractive
alternative solution.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm working on a 1kW DC/DC right now. I probably shouldn't mention this
because I'm still only working on a prototype.
It uses a boost front-end with an intermediary non-isolated 400v bus and
a second stage to drop it to 13-15v (isolated). The input range will be
around 60v to 400v DC.
I don't know how much it will cost. Less than buying a bunch of bricks
one-off.
I'm also considering a small boost-up from 10.5 to 13.8 at 1kW or more
non-isolated.
--
Martin K
Roger Stockton wrote:
Well, you're in luck then! ;^> If the Vicor HI-HAM input modules eat DC
as happily as rectified AC, then a homebrewed 1200W DC/DC should be
possible at this level (~$1200, or 2x the $600 150A Iota cost).
While I don't mean to try to dissuade anyone from installing a high-amp
DC/DC like this, I question if it is really the best, or even a
cost-effective approach. What is the typical continuous load on the 12V
system of a late model conversion? Surely the 100A+ you refer to is
more of a peak scenario?
My personal view is that there is significant wisdom in having a 12V
house battery for safety (in addition to the DC/DC, not instead of it),
and given the relatively short driving time of most conversions, even
100A continuous load is only 50Ah over a typical 30min operating time.
Offset this with a reasonably beefy (~30A/600W) DC/DC, and it decreases
to about 35Ah from the aux battery over 30min. A deep cycle group 31
house battery and a 600W-ish DC/DC seems like a very attractive
alternative solution.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
I have good news. For a year now, I've been trying to get ahead of the huge
lead time on Zillas by trying to keep my own stock. They have all sold before
they were even built. But I finally got ahead of the game on a Z2K-EHV with
option A (reversing and series contactor control). It can ship within several
days of receiving the order. Option P can be added if using a HEPA. Price
with option A is $4950. I offer a 2% discount when paying with check or money
order.
There is a good chance the unit could be ready for BBB (Battery Beach Burnout).
Please contact me off list if interested (sales at evsource dot com). Check
with me before purchasing online to make sure it hasn't been spoken for. The
unit will of course be secured with payment.
As a side note, I have been trying to get stock of PFC chargers so they can
ship immediately. There is currently one PFC-30 that is ready to ship.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:46:27 -0800
I think we have neglected gravity as a power source, there is so much of it
around we just don't think about it, it is a huge untapped resource.
We need to put a big magnet on the moon, so when it rotates around the
earth we can use its magnetic field to charge a big coil on the earth, and
thus use the moon as a part of a motor.
The oil companies are preventing us from doing it, Tezla proved it was
possible in 1910, but Standard Oil crushed his research program by hiring
away all his assistants, and GM slandered his reputation until he committed
suicide in 1925.
And I have some beautiful oceanfront property in Kansas I can make you a
real deal on...
Seriously, if demand for electricity goes way up, the price will go up
also. Even without EVs due to population growth, electricity demand has
and will continue to go up. And we've tapped about all the hydro we can.
We have vast quantities of Coal in the US, and we can make it clean burning
but at big expense.
Really solar power is the best vast untapped resource we have, and global
warming means we need to extract it to keep the planet cool. :)
Jack
I've always thought about putting magnets and coils on the shock absorbers
and springs of an EV to convert the damping into electricity that would
normally be converted to heat. Of course, the effort to do this would far
exceed the benefit, but it's an interesting thought exercise.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The fact that we can put two opposing poles together
and get a force, but not be able to utilise it as a source of power
seems to be awry to me.
Well then you have an inadiquate understanding of physics.
Rereading this, I can see that it might appear insulting. This was not my
intention. My point is that you need to study physics more.
(And I need to study spelling more, among other things)
_________________________________________________________________
Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! MSN Shopping
Sales & Deals
http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was reading Autobloggreen and someone mentioned this company that says
that Aluminum batteries can have 20x the energy density of Li-ion. I
was wondering what you all thought. The company is called Europositron
Link: http://www.europositron.com/en/index.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PTC Heater fuse
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:47:03 -0700
The initial turn-on current can be quite high for these ceramic heater
elements. Once they warm up just a bit, the resistance climbs and the
current goes down.
The ceramic heater I am using ( I bought it from KTA) doesn't show this
behavior. It's initial (cold) current is relatively low, and the current
rises ( element resistance drops) as the element heats up. As it continues
to heat up further, the resistance rises again and the current drops.
This surprised me - I also thought that the resistance only dropped with
increasing temperature.
Here are the measurements:
cold resistance - 55.2 ohms
minimum resistance (at 120V) is at medium-high fan speed - 8.3 ohms (
resulting in 14.5 amps)
So, at least for this particular element, the starting current is low, and
rises as the element heats up. Then, as the element gets even warmer, the
resistance rises and limits the current ( and temperature)
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes has
it all. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dr. Michael Polsinelli wrote:
I was reading Autobloggreen and someone mentioned this company that
says that Aluminum batteries can have 20x the energy density of
Li-ion. I was wondering what you all thought. The company is called
Europositron
Link: http://www.europositron.com/en/index.html
Every year we see a whole slew of announcements about miraculous battery
technologies, but most people are still stuck with the same stalwart
technologies for actually moving their vehicles, Lead, Ni-Cad, NiMh, and
Lithium.
Everybody would love to see these claims come true, but most of the time
they do not.
So, personally, I would wait until we see these appearing in a vehicle
somewhere before getting my hopes up.
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2007-01-12 at 10:47 -0700, Bill Dube wrote:
> Don't make the common mistake of trying
> to use a fuse that does not have a DC rating at or above the pack
> voltage. You will get a fire, or at least a burned fuse holder if you
> do. (Ask me how I know.)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
Tell me about it. You should see what happens when an ATC 20 amp fuse
sees 120vdc at heater start up. Smoke was about all that was left.
Rich
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On Sat, 2007-01-13 at 02:22 +0000, Dave Davidson wrote:
> I've always thought about putting magnets and coils on the shock absorbers
> and springs of an EV to convert the damping into electricity that would
> normally be converted to heat. Of course, the effort to do this would far
> exceed the benefit, but it's an interesting thought exercise.
Actually, it's been done -- the collected energy is then used to force
the wheel down into dips and potholes:
http://www.bose.com/suspension
--chris
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On Fri, 2007-01-12 at 21:46 -0500, Phil Marino wrote:
>
>
> >From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: PTC Heater fuse
> >Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:47:03 -0700
> The ceramic heater I am using ( I bought it from KTA) doesn't show this
> behavior. It's initial (cold) current is relatively low, and the current
> rises ( element resistance drops) as the element heats up. As it continues
> to heat up further, the resistance rises again and the current drops.
>
> This surprised me - I also thought that the resistance only dropped with
> increasing temperature.
>
> Here are the measurements:
>
> cold resistance - 55.2 ohms
> minimum resistance (at 120V) is at medium-high fan speed - 8.3 ohms (
> resulting in 14.5 amps)
>
> So, at least for this particular element, the starting current is low, and
> rises as the element heats up. Then, as the element gets even warmer, the
> resistance rises and limits the current ( and temperature)
>
>
> Phil
I was having trouble with my ceramic heater blowing fuses (I found out I
was using the wrong fuses) but in the mean time I measured the cold
resistance at 2 ohms. When I measured this I thought something must be
wrong with this element. When I informed the supplier he said that
measuring resistance on these elements doesn't work. What's up with
that?
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I did some experimenting several months ago, and came to a similar
conclusion (though my measurements were different). They start out at
high resistance and have a distinct NTC characteristic until a certain
temperature, where the curve reverses and it's PTC as the temperature
rises from there.
http://www.ohmbre.org/blog/2006/03/12/heater-score/
--chris
On Fri, 2007-01-12 at 21:46 -0500, Phil Marino wrote:
>
>
> >From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: PTC Heater fuse
> >Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:47:03 -0700
> >
> >The initial turn-on current can be quite high for these ceramic heater
> >elements. Once they warm up just a bit, the resistance climbs and the
> >current goes down.
>
> The ceramic heater I am using ( I bought it from KTA) doesn't show this
> behavior. It's initial (cold) current is relatively low, and the current
> rises ( element resistance drops) as the element heats up. As it continues
> to heat up further, the resistance rises again and the current drops.
>
> This surprised me - I also thought that the resistance only dropped with
> increasing temperature.
>
> Here are the measurements:
>
> cold resistance - 55.2 ohms
> minimum resistance (at 120V) is at medium-high fan speed - 8.3 ohms (
> resulting in 14.5 amps)
>
> So, at least for this particular element, the starting current is low, and
> rises as the element heats up. Then, as the element gets even warmer, the
> resistance rises and limits the current ( and temperature)
>
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> >From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes has
> it all. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline1
>
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Rich Long wrote:
I ordered some F09B 20 amp, 250v fuses and a holder
from Surplus Sales of Nebraska...
This company doesn't list whether the fuse is AC or DC rated. The
difference is important! Unless it is specially built for DC, a fuse's
DC voltage rating is only about 1/4th of its AC rating. That "250v" fuse
is probably 250vac, or 60vdc.
On their list of F09B size fuses, the BLN, FNA, FNM, KLK, and KTK, are
all only AC rated. None have DC ratings. The others don't give the
proper part# of the fuse so you can't tell what it is.
If you want to use the 1.5" x 13/32" dia. style of cartridge fuses, then
you want a KLM or KLKD. These are 500 or 600 vdc (depending on the amps).
For the 1.25" x 1/4" diameter style, you wan the 3AB or ABC. These are
125 or 250 vdc rated (again, depending on the amps).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Roger Stockton wrote:
If someone were to pursue this approach, I would suggest that the way
to do it might be to contact Vicor and confirm that their HI-HAM PFC
universal input modules will operate from DC as well as AC.
I tested one a few years ago. Yes, the HAM does work on DC. However,
there are some peculiarities.
First, the HAM output voltage is only approximately regulated. You'll
see a curve for the output voltage as a function of peak input voltage.
With a DC input, this can put the DC output voltage at awkward levels
for a subsequent DC/DC converter.
Second, the output power when run on DC is less than you'd expect. The
HAM can deliver 600w with an AC input, but only about 300w with a DC
input. I determined this by noticing that it ran just as hot with 300w
out on DC than it did with 600w on AC.
In particular, you have to be careful with low DC input voltages. In
normal operation at 600w output, here are the HAM output power levels at
various points in the 240vac line cycle:
at 0v input: 0 watts output
at 80v: 75w
at 160v: 300w
at 340v (peak): 1200w
When you look at the time the AC line cycle spends at each voltage, this
happens to average out to 600 watts. But if you try applying 160vdc
continuous, all you can get is 300w out, because that's all the HAM
allows at that particular voltage.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I had not heard of that concept... but one concept called for having
aluminum pellets in the "tank". You'd charge them at the pump and dump them
back into the car. They weren't claiming anywhere near the capacity of
standard batts... just more convenience. (You could store more weight/volume
of pellets then charge in minutes.)
Aluminum doesn't have the capacity to store 20x the charge, or they'd be
making batts out of it. (You'd see aluminum batts for hand held devices, for
instance.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Michael Polsinelli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 5:21 PM
Subject: Aluminum batteries
> I was reading Autobloggreen and someone mentioned this company that says
> that Aluminum batteries can have 20x the energy density of Li-ion. I
> was wondering what you all thought. The company is called Europositron
>
> Link: http://www.europositron.com/en/index.html
>
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I anticipate an ethanol fuel cell may be available before the Volt.
So I am growing corn in the back yard, and preparing to make my on
ethanol to fuel my EV.
With 4 KW solar (not grid-connected) on the roof of my out-building I
think the daily circling of
a police helicopter things I am growing pot. I am sure if the fuel cell
does not arrive we can
find other uses for the ethanol. Beats hydrogen - good to the last drop!
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You are correct in a way... we've tapped most of the natural hydro. You are
also correct that energy cost *will* go up, as we've also (mostly) consumed
all the cheap energy. However, Europe is ahead of us in tapping what
remains... though they still have a long ways to go.
As for Tesla, you can forget what you are reading. Most of it was put into
legend long after his demise. His ideas of transmitted power (eg: radio
control and radio transmission of signals) were far advanced for his time.
He found ways to step up (and throw away) power... for transmission to
remote devices. He did have methods far in advance of his time... but as for
miracles (as put forth by all the people who have written about him
since)... well, it's just that... legend.
EV will catch on, because that's the only power we have (right now) that
will meet the future. I am hoping that energy won't run out before my
descendants have a chance to live their full lives... but I'm not hopeful.
The next 50 years will be interesting. It can be a time for major
advancement... or a descent into a dark age... darker than ever before.
On the bright side, anything can be converted to electricity... but not
necessarily back again. Electricity is the most efficient motivation force
around (not counting conversion factors). It's a matter of finding a way to
store that energy so it's mobile that will face our world.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
> I think we have neglected gravity as a power source, there is so much of
> it around we just don't think about it, it is a huge untapped resource.
> We need to put a big magnet on the moon, so when it rotates around the
> earth we can use its magnetic field to charge a big coil on the earth,
> and thus use the moon as a part of a motor.
> The oil companies are preventing us from doing it, Tezla proved it was
> possible in 1910, but Standard Oil crushed his research program by
> hiring away all his assistants, and GM slandered his reputation until he
> committed suicide in 1925.
>
> Seriously, if demand for electricity goes way up, the price will go up
> also. Even without EVs due to population growth, electricity demand has
> and will continue to go up. And we've tapped about all the hydro we
> can. We have vast quantities of Coal in the US, and we can make it
> clean burning but at big expense.
> Really solar power is the best vast untapped resource we have, and
> global warming means we need to extract it to keep the planet cool. :)
>
> Jack
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The prob w/ fuel cells is the purity of the fuel, from the best I can
determine, plus the power available from the source.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a mix of a fuel and oxygen through a
"grid" that develops electricity... has done so since the early Apollo
missions The power inherent in the fuel changes the amount of power
developed over the sq ft of "grid" area. It's also "super fine" mesh, so any
impurity (dust) can plug the grid.
I think that's why they are concentrating on H2. The tests done with fuel
cells, from what I'm reading, are pure H2 and O2. If I'm not mistaken, dust
(or even moisture) in air can seriously dampen the effect of fuel cells. Hot
spots (areas which are allowed to breathe) can develop which can burn out
spots in the cell, under high demand.
...or am I reading this incorrectly...???
You are certainly correct. Any fuel can be used in a fuel cell, so long as
it can be combined with oxygen, to develop electricity.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 8:08 PM
Subject: EV and Ethanol fuel cell in a do-it-yourself world
> I anticipate an ethanol fuel cell may be available before the Volt.
> So I am growing corn in the back yard, and preparing to make my on
> ethanol to fuel my EV.
>
> With 4 KW solar (not grid-connected) on the roof of my out-building I
> think the daily circling of
> a police helicopter things I am growing pot. I am sure if the fuel cell
> does not arrive we can
> find other uses for the ethanol. Beats hydrogen - good to the last drop!
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As an experiment, try to keep track on how much energy you use growing
that corn, ie.
1. Gas for trips to the store for fertilizers, equpment, etc
2. How much fertilizer used (made from natural gas)
3. Any power used by other machinery you may utilize for growing, harvesting
4. How much energy you used to turn the corn into ethanol.
I'd be most curious to find out what the ROI comes out to.
On 1/12/07, JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I anticipate an ethanol fuel cell may be available before the Volt.
So I am growing corn in the back yard, and preparing to make my on
ethanol to fuel my EV.
With 4 KW solar (not grid-connected) on the roof of my out-building I
think the daily circling of
a police helicopter things I am growing pot. I am sure if the fuel cell
does not arrive we can
find other uses for the ethanol. Beats hydrogen - good to the last drop!
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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