EV Digest 6295
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Aluminum batteries
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Electric rates, the carbon cycle, and "renewable" resources
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Aluminum batteries
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Price,
availability Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: How to test a motor
by Mike Swift <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) draft
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) re: C2EC2T workshop for 2007
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: [EV] Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: PWM Module for fan
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV and Ethanol fuel cell in a do-it-yourself world
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) [EV] Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV and Ethanol fuel cell in a do-it-yourself world
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: [EV] Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Charging current...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: EV and Ethanol fuel cell in a do-it-yourself world
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1- backyard waterwheel link
FYI
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
These are noano desing aluminu, batteries which greatly increase the
plate surface area.
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 9:37 pm, Michael Perry wrote:
I had not heard of that concept... but one concept called for having
aluminum pellets in the "tank". You'd charge them at the pump and dump
them
back into the car. They weren't claiming anywhere near the capacity of
standard batts... just more convenience. (You could store more
weight/volume
of pellets then charge in minutes.)
Aluminum doesn't have the capacity to store 20x the charge, or they'd
be
making batts out of it. (You'd see aluminum batts for hand held
devices, for
instance.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Michael Polsinelli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 5:21 PM
Subject: Aluminum batteries
I was reading Autobloggreen and someone mentioned this company that
says
that Aluminum batteries can have 20x the energy density of Li-ion. I
was wondering what you all thought. The company is called
Europositron
Link: http://www.europositron.com/en/index.html
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A new backyard hydro generator invention capable of generating 2000
watts from a stream with a dip of only 8 inches was just announced in
britain.
It will cost only 2000 pds and can cover 90% or household needs and pay
for itself in 2 yrs.
The article estiamted something like 80 % of british homes will have
enough stream power to use it.
It was on another group list that has scrolled from me so I can't cross
post.
Needless to say it changes everything.
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 9:37 pm, Michael Perry wrote:
You are correct in a way... we've tapped most of the natural hydro. You
are
also correct that energy cost *will* go up, as we've also (mostly)
consumed
all the cheap energy. However, Europe is ahead of us in tapping what
remains... though they still have a long ways to go.
As for Tesla, you can forget what you are reading. Most of it was put
into
legend long after his demise. His ideas of transmitted power (eg: radio
control and radio transmission of signals) were far advanced for his
time.
He found ways to step up (and throw away) power... for transmission to
remote devices. He did have methods far in advance of his time... but
as for
miracles (as put forth by all the people who have written about him
since)... well, it's just that... legend.
EV will catch on, because that's the only power we have (right now)
that
will meet the future. I am hoping that energy won't run out before my
descendants have a chance to live their full lives... but I'm not
hopeful.
The next 50 years will be interesting. It can be a time for major
advancement... or a descent into a dark age... darker than ever before.
On the bright side, anything can be converted to electricity... but not
necessarily back again. Electricity is the most efficient motivation
force
around (not counting conversion factors). It's a matter of finding a
way to
store that energy so it's mobile that will face our world.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
I think we have neglected gravity as a power source, there is so much
of
it around we just don't think about it, it is a huge untapped
resource.
We need to put a big magnet on the moon, so when it rotates around the
earth we can use its magnetic field to charge a big coil on the earth,
and thus use the moon as a part of a motor.
The oil companies are preventing us from doing it, Tezla proved it was
possible in 1910, but Standard Oil crushed his research program by
hiring away all his assistants, and GM slandered his reputation until
he
committed suicide in 1925.
Seriously, if demand for electricity goes way up, the price will go up
also. Even without EVs due to population growth, electricity demand
has
and will continue to go up. And we've tapped about all the hydro we
can. We have vast quantities of Coal in the US, and we can make it
clean burning but at big expense.
Really solar power is the best vast untapped resource we have, and
global warming means we need to extract it to keep the planet cool. :)
Jack
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Solar,Wind,Tidal and hydro are the best for us to consider, because
their is no carbon cycle. It is zero. But face it, only a percentage of
the worlds population live near such resources. There just isn't enough
to go around (well, Maybe solar)
The lesser half of the energy available, boils down to the carbon cycle.
How long it takes for the carbon in CO2 to go from the air into a plant
sequestered in a hydrocarbon then released again into the atmosphere
(ooo, we can call it the carbon cycle battery)
These cycles are all around and in us. Sugar and starch are hydrocarbons
that the fuel cell called the human body consumes, we release some as
CO2 and Other....
The ones we label renewable are when the carbon goes through the cycle
in less than about 100 years. The issue with petroleum, and I am not
claiming one side or the other, just stateing the facts, Is the amount
of time to sequester the carbon relative to the rate of use.
I especially like the phrase bob lutz used in the Volt presentation when
he called hydrogen an alternate way of storing electricity, I think we,
this list, are partially responsible for imparting that viewpoint
(discussions and emails)
The best I can hope for in the upcoming year is a personal zero balance.
Double my solar and increase the range on my EV, This year I bought 1
tank of gas in May when my EV was down, but drove the EV until
thanksgiving when it turned too cold and my range dropped below the
minimum. A funny story was during that first week after 8 months of
driveing electric, I almost had to walk home. It seems I had trouble
remembering I had to stop for gas. For people starting conversions with
lead acid, even sealed batteries in sunny california, insulated battery
boxes (with a fan to cool them in summer) are a must.
This is in danger of being off-topic except to remind people that the
electric power for our EV's will come from varied sources, it is just a
carrier of energy which people subscribing to this list generally
believe is the most versitile, efficient, and cost effective. The focus
is on the storage and use of electricity for the purpose of transportation.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is noteworthy that any battery which is "rechanged" by replacing its
materials is not a battery but a fuel cell. In theory a lead-acid
battery could be made with tanks of the 2 types of lead pellets and
another tank of acid which would technically constitute a fuel cell,
though an impractical one.
IIRC Europositrol has claimed this principle is possible, but I hadn't
seen a claim of a working lab model of an aluminum battery. I believe
the idea was that it was a primary battery and you'd recondition it by
replacing the aluminum plates. Now I know zinc-air is a real battery
and this would be technically possible already (practicality is
debatable). I haven't taken chemistry in a long time but I don't know
what chemistry would make electricity from aluminum.
Danny
Michael Perry wrote:
I had not heard of that concept... but one concept called for having
aluminum pellets in the "tank". You'd charge them at the pump and dump them
back into the car. They weren't claiming anywhere near the capacity of
standard batts... just more convenience. (You could store more weight/volume
of pellets then charge in minutes.)
Aluminum doesn't have the capacity to store 20x the charge, or they'd be
making batts out of it. (You'd see aluminum batts for hand held devices, for
instance.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Michael Polsinelli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 5:21 PM
Subject: Aluminum batteries
I was reading Autobloggreen and someone mentioned this company that says
that Aluminum batteries can have 20x the energy density of Li-ion. I
was wondering what you all thought. The company is called Europositron
Link: http://www.europositron.com/en/index.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I using the KLM-1 to KLM-30 fuses which are 600 volt DC rated on 180 vdc
which had only blown 1 in 30 years. They are a Bussman FO9B size 1-1/2 by
3/8 inch diameter.
I have even use a FNM-30 fuse rated at 32 volts AC on 180 volts DC and never
blew it in 20 years and found it was the wrong voltage.
I am using these fuses in a 600 volt fuse holder.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: PTC Heater fuse
> Rich Long wrote:
> > I ordered some F09B 20 amp, 250v fuses and a holder
> > from Surplus Sales of Nebraska...
>
> This company doesn't list whether the fuse is AC or DC rated. The
> difference is important! Unless it is specially built for DC, a fuse's
> DC voltage rating is only about 1/4th of its AC rating. That "250v" fuse
> is probably 250vac, or 60vdc.
>
> On their list of F09B size fuses, the BLN, FNA, FNM, KLK, and KTK, are
> all only AC rated. None have DC ratings. The others don't give the
> proper part# of the fuse so you can't tell what it is.
>
> If you want to use the 1.5" x 13/32" dia. style of cartridge fuses, then
> you want a KLM or KLKD. These are 500 or 600 vdc (depending on the amps).
>
> For the 1.25" x 1/4" diameter style, you wan the 3AB or ABC. These are
> 125 or 250 vdc rated (again, depending on the amps).
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> >If the world suffered some catastrophy and we needed to
>> >communicate, hand wound or pedalled generators become the
>> >fuel stations to keep us going, no matter how much you
>> >pedal you cannot make oil, but you can make a surprising
>> >ammount of electricity.
>>
>> Wrong on both points badly. Pedal power doesn't get
>> it for more than a few wthrs.
A reasonably fit individual can produce over 200 watts per hour, the
average couch patato, about 1/2 of that.
Considering that the average American (and most people in the other
developed counries) could use an extra hour of exercise every day or so,
this could be an excellent source of additional energy.
Ok granted 200 whrs isn't much in our current energy hungry society. But
it's enough to run a florescent light for 8 hours, or a TV for an hour or
two, or get 20-30 miles in an unltra lightwieght, extreemly efficient, EV.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can use a four wire rig to measure very low resistances with an
ordinary digital volt meter. Get a power supply or battery that will
supply at least 1 amp. Connect the output of the supply to the two
leads that you want to measure the resistance of. Now set the
current to exactly one amp. If its a battery suppling the current you
can use any resistors, lamps, or even a small motor as a load to
reduce the current to one amp. Now with the volt meter set to the
low volts range connect its leads to the motor leads, but not with
the same connector that is suppling the current. You do not want to
add any voltage drop from current passing through the current source
leads. The resistance is now equal to one milli-ohm per milli-volt.
If you do not want to set the current to one amp you can use ohms law
to calculate the resistance of the motor windings.
On Jan 7, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: January 7, 2007 9:27:06 AM PST
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: How to test a motor?
You could use a Wheatstone bridge.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: How to test a motor?
>
It's really hard to measure the resistance of a motor. Motors
typically
have less than 1 ohm of resistance, you need a special meter that
can
measure super low resistance. Even then it's hard to measure,
you need to
rock the shaft back and forth to find the lowest resistance.
Oops, sorry. Need to edit better. I meant to say Armature, not
motor.
Please substitute armature for motor above.
Mike Swift
Some say we must tax corporations more. What they do not understand
is that corporations do not pay taxes. One of our govenments
conditions for a companies exsistance is thay collect the taxes from
their customers and pass them to the government.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking for input for this range calculator:
If you a chance I made this calculator on this page:
http://community.uaf.edu/~ffmig/power.php
and I'm using this formula:
http://community.uaf.edu/~ffmig/force.htm
Thanks,
Michael Golub
Fairbanks, AK
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
Are there any other courses like this?
I guess there are workshops, but this looks pretty
cool?
Who keeps the car after the course?
I was thinking about trying to start a course like
this up here in Fairbanks, AK.
Later,
Michael Golub
-----------------------------------
Summer Workshop
C2EC2T
Or Commuter Conversion Electric Car Class for Teachers
July 02- July 13, 2007
Workshop Coordinator: Abrán Quevedo (Mr. Q)
Go from gross polluter to protector of the
environment!
You can convert any stick-shift compact car from an
ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) that uses gasoline to
a NICE (No Internal Combustion Engine) all electric in
just ten days! This course, designed for the absolute
beginner or novice, will guide you in creating a
reliable, pollution-free commuter electric car.
This is the perfect class for auto shop instructors,
science teachers, industrial technology teachers,
other industrial arts teachers and EV enthusiasts. We
will be using the textbook, Convert It by Michael P.
Brown which describes how to convert from gas to
electric power, and along the way teacher participants
will develop teaching strategies related to the
electric car conversion process.
During the two week course, we will convert a loud,
gas-guzzling candidate vehicle into an amazingly
quiet, emissions-free electric car that will never
have to pay at the gas pump again.
Overcome your fear of the conversion process with
patient (mostly), gentle, hands-on instruction. Lots
of wrenching included as an added bonus! Specific
electric car classroom presentation will be offered by
knowledgeable guest speakers related to low-rolling
resistance tires, regenerative braking and electric
car performance projections.
Tuition cost is $300 (S.D. county ROP and SDCCC
teachers exempt)
Class begins on Monday, July 02 and ends on Friday,
July 13.
Each class runs from 8:00 a.m. until 3:00 p.m. daily.
Professional Growth Units (PGU) may be available at
time of registration
San Diego Community College District
Center City/Skills Center
835 Park Boulevard
San Diego, CA 92101-4721
Phone: (619) 239-6739
For registration and motel accommodation information
contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Certificate of Completion Awarded to Workshop
Participants
____________________________________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You cut out the first part of my message. Tidal power comes from the
kinetic energy of the Earth's rotation, that energy was put into the
planet when it was created. There are only a few sites which use tidal
power though. Tidal is a form of hydroelectric, but an obscure one.
Geothermal power comes from heat in the Earth's core. Oddly enough we
do not know where that heat comes from but it certainly isn't the sun.
It is believed to be a nuclear reaction simply because physics has no
other possible source. The isotopes it would be composed of is unknown
as well, though there are some good speculations.
Danny
Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
Technically oil is solar power.... sunlight stores chemical energy in
living things which later becomes oil.
Technically everything in the earth is solar power, except for nuclear,
right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul,
Look on eBay for Vicor. They always have lots of new modules cheap in almost
every range possible. The 24/12 and 24/15 are especially plentiful. If some
one only needs small quantities, that's the way to go.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul G. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 4:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PWM Module for fan
On Jan 10, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
> Paul G. wrote:
>> This falls to the question - what would it take to have affordable
>> DC>DC converters in the 60 to 100 amp range? There are issues - input
>> voltages, output currents, and small number of customers.
>
> I haven't seen anyone else respond, so I'll offer my opinion that the
> biggest issue is the small number of customers. For lower input
> voltages, check out Surepower's <http://www.surepower.com/conv.html>
> offerings <http://www.surepower.com/pdf/converterflyer.pdf>. At 24V
> in,
> they offer up to 100A @ 12V out, and they have DC/DCs for up to 96V
> packs (the higher input voltage models aren't listed, so I'm not sure
> what output currents are available).
I've looked at those. Its an interesting option. If the EV had a large
24 volt battery and a 24>12v converter (set to around 13.5v) you could
run without a DC>DC converter on the battery pack and have good strong
"12" volt system. Of course you would need a 24 volt battery bank and
charger for the EV.
> Curtis has DC/DCs (300W nominal/375W peak; about 27A @ 13.5V peak) for
> packs up to 144V
> (<http://www.curtisinstruments.com/index.cfm?
> fuseaction=cDatasheets.dspL
> istDS&CatID=5&siteID=1>), which are packaged for the
> underhood/automotive environment.
I'm not seeing the needed input voltage range(s) with the kind of
output current newer vehicles require. Right now it seems that the Iota
DLS-55 is a common choice, but only over a narrow voltage range.
> People willing to "roll their own" can certainly start with Vicor
> modules, such as the Maxi series for 500W/per module. Use the 300V
> nominal input part for packs in the 204-276V nominal range or the 375V
> part for packs of 284-314V nominal. Or, look to the MegaMod series for
> 600W output, using the 150V input part for packs of 114-148V nominal
> and
> the 300V part for 228-296V nominal packs. (My pack voltage ranges are
> conservative as they assume the DC/DC remains connected while charging,
> etc.) 600W corresponds to about 43A @ 13.8V out.
Those are interesting options. My understanding is that Vicor modules
are pricey when you want a small number. If someone where to package
these up with the stuff needed to be an EV DC>DC they may find a
market. Of course its still a small market, but if designed as a
scaleable system quite a range of input voltages and output current
needs could be satisfied with a handful of Vicor part numbers. The
input range seems to cover everything except 149-203 volts (156 volts
is a common build) and EVs under 114 volts.
> What's your thought on affordable for something like this? How much
> more are you willing to pay for something that is packaged [more]
> appropriately for the automotive environment (e.g. a Surepower or
> Curtis
> unit vs an unsealed Todd-style unit)?
Here is another split in the market :-) I can install them inside the
vehicle (under a protective cover, perhaps in the trunk...) if the only
problem is reasonable environmental protection. They (Todd, Iota) are
designed to be mounted inside motor-homes and trailers - I can copy
that level of protection in a passenger car. My concern is the lack of
offerings for EVs that aren't either 120v to 144v or 240v to 288v. If
the voltage range is right an Iota converter(s) can work fine and is
available for an attractive price.
What if I want to build a 192 volt EV? DC>DCs seem to be setting the
voltages instead of user need (range targets, motor rpm targets, space
available, and other EV build issues.) I'd gladly pay double what a
similar amp Iota cost and it can still be packaged like a travel
trailer AC>DC converter.
It looks like solarseller could set a person up with 150 amps of Iota
DC>DC (2, 75 amp units plus a bridge circuit to use them in parallel)
for around $600. This should be suitable for a late model EV conversion
with power everything; but, we don't all build 120 to 144 volt EVs.
Paul "neon" G.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
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--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> As an experiment, try to keep track on how much energy you use growing
> that corn, ie.
> 1. Gas for trips to the store for fertilizers, equpment, etc
> 2. How much fertilizer used (made from natural gas)
> 3. Any power used by other machinery you may utilize for growing,
harvesting
> 4. How much energy you used to turn the corn into ethanol.
>
> I'd be most curious to find out what the ROI comes out to.
>
>
One of the things we should be able tolook forward to with renewables,
and the main reason why we should shift to renewables as soon as
possible, sis because if we generated all of our power from nothing
more than the inherent natural cycling processes in our environment,
then the financial cost to produce it becmes less...donw to the point
that once the plant is built only maintnence costs remain. There is no
purchase of fuel required.
That's relevant , because at the moment the only reason we seem to use
the energy equatin is because we assume energy == significant cost.
If you generate your own energy on site through solar power and then
power machinery to make something else, that energy is effectively free.
The argument about solar panels using more electricity to produce than
they ever return is as irelevant today as it was when the first pro-
fossil fuel scientist said he would avoid them for that reason.
Does anyone know how much energy is used to make carbon-zinc or
alkaline batteries ? My point here is that if the solar panels are made
using renewable energy all we are doing is using free(read low cost)
electricity to make something which allows you to disconnect from the
grid which produced those panels which frees up energy to make more
panels !
As an experiment recently I calculated the ammount of energy at my
local petrol station to be 10kW constant. It has 5 double sided pumps
so it can serve 10 people at once, it is about 15% utilised in a 24hr
period , I would say even 10% in fact. On average, it has the
equivalent usage of 1 person pumping fuel continuously
It takes say 4 minutes to pump the first litre, and 5 minutes to pump
an average ammount of 30 litres.
If everyone took 1 litre the pump serves 15 people per hour, in terms
of energy that is 10kWH/15 = 0.667kWH per person.
Assuming the car has a small engine, and can travel 30mpg, that's about
8 miles on that litre. With an electric car of 0.2kWh/mile that's the
equivalent milage of over 3 miles of travel, just from the elctricity
used at the petrol station.
At the 30 litre rate the mileage ratio is obviously less, but the point
here is that the support infrastructure for oil demands huge energy
resources from other means just to support it.
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Tidal, and all underwater current energy schemes make most sense
sometimes.
A wind generator can produce 5 times as much energy if the flow
medium across it's surface is water rather than air...whcih means the
rotor area can be reduced by a factor of 5 to get the same energy.
Experiments were done at my university to plant a water fan on the
sea bed and results were very encouraging...the problem is that the
seaguls get a free feed from the constantly running food processor,
and suspicions were that in the long term seabed ecology would be
changed for the worse.
A newer version being developed is not rotary but works like a fishes
tail flapping horizontally up and down. As it reciprocates up and
down hydraulic fluid is pumped through to a generator by hydraulic
rams and the energy fed back to land. Mechanically it's a litle more
comlex than a rotor but is efficient enough to be viable.
In the uk we have one of the largest tidal flows in the world so we
ought to be spending more on it. the tide flows in a circular pattern
around the island much of the time, and we get a constant flow from
the gulf stream too, it would be great if we could harness it's
energy !
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You cut out the first part of my message. Tidal power comes from
the
> kinetic energy of the Earth's rotation, that energy was put into
the
> planet when it was created. There are only a few sites which use
tidal
> power though. Tidal is a form of hydroelectric, but an obscure one.
>
> Geothermal power comes from heat in the Earth's core. Oddly enough
we
> do not know where that heat comes from but it certainly isn't the
sun.
> It is believed to be a nuclear reaction simply because physics has
no
> other possible source. The isotopes it would be composed of is
unknown
> as well, though there are some good speculations.
>
> Danny
>
> Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
>
> >>Technically oil is solar power.... sunlight stores chemical
energy in
> >>living things which later becomes oil.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Technically everything in the earth is solar power, except for
nuclear,
> >right?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, but cost IS relevent. At least if you consider the energy cost.
If a given type of energy uses more energy to produce it, than it
provides, then its silly to waste energy producing it.
I'm not talking about storing energy, that will always loose energy, but
it's usually necessary if you need to move the energy to somewhere other
than where it's produced.
I'm talking about producing the energy in the first place. i.e. if it
takes more energy to produce a PV panel than the panel will ever produce
(highly debatable), then it doesn't make sense to produce PV panels except
for remote areas.
Why use 200kwh to make 100 kwh? Regardless of where the 200 kwh came
from, there are probably better ways to get the 100 kwh where it's going.
The same with making bio fuels, if it takes 2 gallons to make one gallon,
then why bother?
The oil companies are finally catching on to this, I've seen an add on TV
from a major oil company claiming that "In the world wide search for oil,
we are expending two barrels of oil for every barrel discovered"
How long do you think they will keep that up before they decide it's not
worth looking for more oil?
Biofuels and EVs are the future, and the future is looking closer than ever.
(Ok that was cheesy, but it's true)
> One of the things we should be able tolook forward to with renewables,
> and the main reason why we should shift to renewables as soon as
> possible, sis because if we generated all of our power from nothing
> more than the inherent natural cycling processes in our environment,
> then the financial cost to produce it becmes less...donw to the point
> that once the plant is built only maintnence costs remain. There is no
> purchase of fuel required.
>
> That's relevant , because at the moment the only reason we seem to use
> the energy equatin is because we assume energy == significant cost.
>
> If you generate your own energy on site through solar power and then
> power machinery to make something else, that energy is effectively free.
>
> The argument about solar panels using more electricity to produce than
> they ever return is as irelevant today as it was when the first pro-
> fossil fuel scientist said he would avoid them for that reason.
> Does anyone know how much energy is used to make carbon-zinc or
> alkaline batteries ? My point here is that if the solar panels are made
> using renewable energy all we are doing is using free(read low cost)
> electricity to make something which allows you to disconnect from the
> grid which produced those panels which frees up energy to make more
> panels !
>
> As an experiment recently I calculated the ammount of energy at my
> local petrol station to be 10kW constant. It has 5 double sided pumps
> so it can serve 10 people at once, it is about 15% utilised in a 24hr
> period , I would say even 10% in fact. On average, it has the
> equivalent usage of 1 person pumping fuel continuously
>
> It takes say 4 minutes to pump the first litre, and 5 minutes to pump
> an average ammount of 30 litres.
>
> If everyone took 1 litre the pump serves 15 people per hour, in terms
> of energy that is 10kWH/15 = 0.667kWH per person.
>
> Assuming the car has a small engine, and can travel 30mpg, that's about
> 8 miles on that litre. With an electric car of 0.2kWh/mile that's the
> equivalent milage of over 3 miles of travel, just from the elctricity
> used at the petrol station.
>
> At the 30 litre rate the mileage ratio is obviously less, but the point
> here is that the support infrastructure for oil demands huge energy
> resources from other means just to support it.
> Chris
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Huh, I thought tidal power comes for the moons motion around the earth,
not the earths rotation.
As I recall, there are very few places where there is enough tidal swell
in an area where it can be readily harnessed.
I don't expect tidal energy will ever be a really big player in the
world's energy economy.
> You cut out the first part of my message. Tidal power comes from the
> kinetic energy of the Earth's rotation, that energy was put into the
> planet when it was created. There are only a few sites which use tidal
> power though. Tidal is a form of hydroelectric, but an obscure one.
>
> Geothermal power comes from heat in the Earth's core. Oddly enough we
> do not know where that heat comes from but it certainly isn't the sun.
> It is believed to be a nuclear reaction simply because physics has no
> other possible source. The isotopes it would be composed of is unknown
> as well, though there are some good speculations.
>
> Danny
>
> Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
>
>>>Technically oil is solar power.... sunlight stores chemical energy in
>>>living things which later becomes oil.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Technically everything in the earth is solar power, except for nuclear,
>>right?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well let's see. You have specified a scenario which is easily to make
completely reliable calculations for.
2000W is 2000 joules/sec.
1 joule is the energy of raising or lowering 0.7376 lbs over 1 ft.
So at 100% efficiency, you'd need to move 2212.8 lbs/sec over 8", 276.6
gal/sec. 16,596 gal/min.
Water turbines have had 80%-90% efficiency for over 100 years when used
under ideal circumstances. As such it's notable that while a small,
economical, low draw turbine may be something new, it cannot possibly
produce much more power than turbines have in the past.
So let's take 90%. Then we need 18,440 gpm through the turbine. That's
a pretty powerful stream @ 8" of draw!
Someone did bring up the possibility of energy storage by using solar,
wind, or whatever to pump water into a holding tank or pond up a hill.
This would be a sort of "dump pack" energy reserve for charging an EV.
Energy storage is of course proportional to height, so a tank 30 ft
higher than the turbine would require 1/45th the mass flow of an 8"
draw, 410 gpm to produce 2kw. That would be quite a large tank indeed
to store so much energy. 12300 gallons per kwh over 30 ft.
Did I do those numbers right? This seems like much more water than I
would have guesstimated. I tried to double check my calcs and didn't
see an error.
Danny
GWMobile wrote:
A new backyard hydro generator invention capable of generating 2000
watts from a stream with a dip of only 8 inches was just announced in
britain.
It will cost only 2000 pds and can cover 90% or household needs and
pay for itself in 2 yrs.
The article estiamted something like 80 % of british homes will have
enough stream power to use it.
It was on another group list that has scrolled from me so I can't
cross post.
Needless to say it changes everything.
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 9:37 pm, Michael Perry wrote:
You are correct in a way... we've tapped most of the natural hydro.
You are
also correct that energy cost *will* go up, as we've also (mostly)
consumed
all the cheap energy. However, Europe is ahead of us in tapping what
remains... though they still have a long ways to go.
As for Tesla, you can forget what you are reading. Most of it was put
into
legend long after his demise. His ideas of transmitted power (eg: radio
control and radio transmission of signals) were far advanced for his
time.
He found ways to step up (and throw away) power... for transmission to
remote devices. He did have methods far in advance of his time... but
as for
miracles (as put forth by all the people who have written about him
since)... well, it's just that... legend.
EV will catch on, because that's the only power we have (right now) that
will meet the future. I am hoping that energy won't run out before my
descendants have a chance to live their full lives... but I'm not
hopeful.
The next 50 years will be interesting. It can be a time for major
advancement... or a descent into a dark age... darker than ever before.
On the bright side, anything can be converted to electricity... but not
necessarily back again. Electricity is the most efficient motivation
force
around (not counting conversion factors). It's a matter of finding a
way to
store that energy so it's mobile that will face our world.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
I think we have neglected gravity as a power source, there is so
much of
it around we just don't think about it, it is a huge untapped
resource.
We need to put a big magnet on the moon, so when it rotates around the
earth we can use its magnetic field to charge a big coil on the earth,
and thus use the moon as a part of a motor.
The oil companies are preventing us from doing it, Tezla proved it was
possible in 1910, but Standard Oil crushed his research program by
hiring away all his assistants, and GM slandered his reputation
until he
committed suicide in 1925.
Seriously, if demand for electricity goes way up, the price will go up
also. Even without EVs due to population growth, electricity
demand has
and will continue to go up. And we've tapped about all the hydro we
can. We have vast quantities of Coal in the US, and we can make it
clean burning but at big expense.
Really solar power is the best vast untapped resource we have, and
global warming means we need to extract it to keep the planet cool. :)
Jack
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 1/12/2007 7:01:31 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I guess I should turn my charging current down just a tad....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-412063149614230646&q=electric+arc&h
l=en
The SF6 switch failed (if you slow the movie down, you can see one phase arc
over). The next thing that happens is the disconnects (the part of the
breaker that you can actually see open) break contact, but the arc continues
until the switching station upstream opens the breaker feeding this line -
the arc jumps to one of the other phases. Normally the current should not be
flowing by the time the isolators swing open.
It's actually a dummy load - no EV's were being charged with this when it
went crazy. Here's the story from the guy running the video camera:
http://www.wiseguysynth.com/larry/day.htm
-Dale
This was sent as a joke!
I just thought this video with that caption would be funny. I didn't imagine
anyone would take it seriously!! Just thought we could all use a little
humor...
Ken
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Sorry, but cost IS relevent. At least if you consider the energy
cost.
>
> If a given type of energy uses more energy to produce it, than it
> provides, then its silly to waste energy producing it.
>
> I'm not talking about storing energy, that will always loose
energy, but
> it's usually necessary if you need to move the energy to somewhere
other
> than where it's produced.
But that is the reality of the situation , power storage , be it in
batteries, or flywheels or some other storage medium is going to make
a large difference in the future
I've been contacted to request I keep OT's from the list, ao I'll
guess I have to find my feet to realise what is OT with EV's and what
is not.....Maybe a little note on the Yahoo homepage of the group
offering guidance wouldn't go amiss ?....but then again someone
might come up with a great idea but it's off topic it won't get aired.
I wasn't trolling, I appreciate any advice which might correct my
physics but surely another persons education level has nothing to do
with EV's either..
Okay, I'll consider myself told, must try harder to behave......
Chris
GM4UCD
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Gilmartin
--- GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A new backyard hydro generator invention capable of
> generating 2000
> watts from a stream with a dip of only 8 inches was
> just announced in
> britain.
>
> It will cost only 2000 pds and can cover 90% or
> household needs and pay
> for itself in 2 yrs.
>
> The article estiamted something like 80 % of british
> homes will have
> enough stream power to use it.
>
> It was on another group list that has scrolled from
> me so I can't cross
> post.
>
> Needless to say it changes everything.
>
> On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 9:37 pm, Michael Perry wrote:
> > You are correct in a way... we've tapped most of
> the natural hydro. You
> > are
> > also correct that energy cost *will* go up, as
> we've also (mostly)
> > consumed
> > all the cheap energy. However, Europe is ahead of
> us in tapping what
> > remains... though they still have a long ways to
> go.
> >
> > As for Tesla, you can forget what you are reading.
> Most of it was put
> > into
> > legend long after his demise. His ideas of
> transmitted power (eg: radio
> > control and radio transmission of signals) were
> far advanced for his
> > time.
> > He found ways to step up (and throw away) power...
> for transmission to
> > remote devices. He did have methods far in advance
> of his time... but
> > as for
> > miracles (as put forth by all the people who have
> written about him
> > since)... well, it's just that... legend.
> >
> > EV will catch on, because that's the only power we
> have (right now)
> > that
> > will meet the future. I am hoping that energy
> won't run out before my
> > descendants have a chance to live their full
> lives... but I'm not
> > hopeful.
> > The next 50 years will be interesting. It can be a
> time for major
> > advancement... or a descent into a dark age...
> darker than ever before.
> >
> > On the bright side, anything can be converted to
> electricity... but not
> > necessarily back again. Electricity is the most
> efficient motivation
> > force
> > around (not counting conversion factors). It's a
> matter of finding a
> > way to
> > store that energy so it's mobile that will face
> our world.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 10:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective
> January 1
> >
> >
> >> I think we have neglected gravity as a power
> source, there is so much
> >> of
> >> it around we just don't think about it, it is a
> huge untapped
> >> resource.
> >> We need to put a big magnet on the moon, so when
> it rotates around the
> >> earth we can use its magnetic field to charge a
> big coil on the earth,
> >> and thus use the moon as a part of a motor.
> >> The oil companies are preventing us from doing
> it, Tezla proved it was
> >> possible in 1910, but Standard Oil crushed his
> research program by
> >> hiring away all his assistants, and GM slandered
> his reputation until
> >> he
> >> committed suicide in 1925.
> >>
> >> Seriously, if demand for electricity goes way
> up, the price will go up
> >> also. Even without EVs due to population
> growth, electricity demand
> >> has
> >> and will continue to go up. And we've tapped
> about all the hydro we
> >> can. We have vast quantities of Coal in the US,
> and we can make it
> >> clean burning but at big expense.
> >> Really solar power is the best vast untapped
> resource we have, and
> >> global warming means we need to extract it to
> keep the planet cool. :)
> >>
> >> Jack
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about
> hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake
> images.
>
>
--- End Message ---
