EV Digest 6301
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Carbon Fiber Batteries
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: High End DC Controllers [JGS-EV]
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: BBS?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Curtis 1221B
by "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: BBS?
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: BBS?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Wind Turbines WAS: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: PTC Heater fuse
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Solar Cell prices
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Charging EVs from renewables at home (was RE: Electric Rate Increase
Effecti
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Solar Cell prices
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EV costs, production of the Sunrise
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Results of test, was: Re: PTC Heater fuse
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Curtis 1221B
by Nikki Bloomfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Curtis 1221B
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: ADC vs NetGain Motors [JGS-EV]
by EVSource <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: BBS?
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: EV costs, production of the Sunrise
by "Doug McKee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: GVWR limitation for EV conversions
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) logisystemscontrollers
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) For those that miss the ICE rev
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Charging EVs from renewables at home (was RE: Electric Rate
Increase Effective January 1
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Looks kinda neat anyways. Can you ID the maker of the plain ones?
http://www.brailleauto.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jurgen Schmidt wrote:
From what I have read so far, Curtis and Zilla are the primary
controllers used for large EVs such as S-10 conversions, etc.
And Curtis tops out at 500A / 144V. Are there other controllers that
will handle more than 500A and at least 200VDC?
Zilla 2K HV- 2000A 336V
www.cafeelectric.com
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Get FREE Web site and company branded e-mail from Microsoft Office Live
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> This listserv really should be changed over to a BBS.
Every other month it is suggested. Usually a board gets created as a
result. Look at the dates of the last posts made to this board that
was created around the time of all the Tesla/Wrightspeed hysteria:
http://electricperformance.com/forum/index.php
I even have posts on that board and this is the first time I've been
back since September, but I read the EVDL several times a day.
The fact that the EVDL has existed since "1991" speaks volumes(it works).
http://www.evdl.org/
Get a free Gmail account. Then this list will be just as good as
being in a message board format:
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2803/gmailiw1.jpg
No having to deal with deleting emails one by one. Just read them
using your web browser and let them exist on Google's equipment for
infinity.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I need help finding a Curtis 1221B controller.
If you don't mind the whine (doesn't bother me), I put a 1221C up on
Ebay this afternoon.
Brian
Alfa Romeo Electric Conversion
http://www/skewray.com/alfa
--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
"Lets see, I can have an Email list that comes to me as it happens, OR a web
forum that is slow, requires me to explicitly check things, and will end up
cluttered with lots of cute icons."
This is not quite true.
- the speed of the web forums depends on the servers
- you do not need to explicitly check things - if you do not want to.
- for those who like only email, no problem - it can look just like EVDL has
been for the past 15 years.
and then the benefits:
- looks past the cute icons, but see postings of pictures
- thread grouping of subjects
- easier searching by subject
- ability to have "stickies" for common queries (something that the EVDL
really needs)
- web based groups can handle volumes hundreds of times larger than the EVDL
Web based lists have been discussed many times. And it has been tried many
times, unfortunately it has not worked out. A lot of the EVDL group are
quite happy with an email list and would like to keep it this way.
There are a bunch of smaller web based lists for EVs kicking around,
although they have not been successful as none of the EVDL group wants to go
there.
The solution is to create a web based list that can mirror the EVDL without
interruption to the existing email subscribers. I for one would be happy
with this, as I find the advantages to web based list easily outweigh the
drawbacks (for me).
evforge.net was the closest, but I am not sure what has happened to this
work...
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John G. Lussmyer
Sent: January 14, 2007 6:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BBS?
At 05:50 PM 1/14/2007, Brian M. Sutin wrote:
> > This listserv really should be changed over to a BBS. I think I'm
> > gonna opt out given the volume to topic ratio without any way to
> > categorize the topics.
>
>I agree. In fact, I would be happy to create to create a domain and
>put up a forum, which would take a few days at most and cost nothing.
>On the other hand, I suspect that many of the people who read this
>won't switch over, and the only result would be to dilute the
>community. Unless the
You got it.
Lets see, I can have an Email list that comes to me as it happens, OR a web
forum that is slow, requires me to explicitly check things, and will end up
cluttered with lots of cute icons.
Which do you think I (and many others) would prefer?
Hint: Time is Precious
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
The fact that the EVDL has existed since "1991" speaks volumes(it works).
http://www.evdl.org/
Get a free Gmail account. Then this list will be just as good as
being in a message board format:
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2803/gmailiw1.jpg
No having to deal with deleting emails one by one. Just read them
using your web browser and let them exist on Google's equipment for
infinity.
This is what I do. Gmail works great. I have an account devoted to the EVDL
only. Big time saver. It also makes it an easily searchable archive.
EVDL list member since 10/99.
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. Who will win?
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
New turbines (especially if they are inland) are often around 100m
(340 ft) hub height and swept area (diameter of the blades)
is around 300 ft as well. (150 ft per blade)
Reasons to make them bigger is not only higher bang (power)
for the buck, but also they turn slower, which is less annoying
if you always see them from the corner of your eye.
(Although blade speed is about the same, the larger diameter
makes for a longer distance per turn, so the RPM is lower)
Optically it works out that the larger a turbine, the more
peaceful it looks.
I worked with Vestas on 2 wind projects, though neither got
off the ground due to decisions by the city councils,
unfortunately - else I had a steady income by now, and lots
of green electricity to drive entirely renewable ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Wind Turbines WAS: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > Wind Turbine: We have times when there is no wind. Times when we
> > only have gusts.
>
> You either need batteries or a grid intertie inverter , to save power
> when there is wind, and supply power when the wind is not blowing.
>
> > Do these wind turbines make any noise?
> Hi EVerybody;
On my several Portland Pilgrimages, driving across the country, when I
saw a Windfarm, would stop and check it out, with video cam. One Great One
was in Oklahoma, about 100 or more scattered across the endless prerie. They
are visable for MILES as ya drive from Albequirky to OK City, the major
Interstate, whatever. I pulled off and drove into the farmer's fields,
nobody cared, or was around, and this was AFTER 911! Tne of the things that
impresses ya is the Titanic size of these things!You can drive right up to
the base, park yur Prius, and sniff around. They stand probably 200 foot
high? Turn at a dead silent about 15 RPM, if birds crash into the blades it
is their stupidity, Darwin's Law applies here!Sorta like people that walk on
RR trax, and get trained. At the base is one of those above ground
transformer boxes, thing 4 fridges strapped together, size wise.This is the
biggest "Noise" out there, they hum happily, probably don't know the
words,That is IT! These are a great Eye Candy thing, something majestic
about the blades silently turning. Put one on MY backyard if ya like!
I drove around to the support/office bldg, barged in and they showed me
around. It was owned by Florida Power Co, a bit far from home, but FPC is in
the wind biz, big time!So if you are motoring Out West see a Farm, stop by,
I was never turned away! If ya show an interest, the good folks there will
show ya around. Stuff like this is why I do that trip across the country,
EVery year. EBVer been down in a coal mine, Hydro Electric plant, AC
Propulsion, Phoenix Motors.....Tresla's on my "Hit" list next year.Not to
mention you Listers I have hit before on my travels.
Seeya at BBB?
Bob
> Small ones are pretty quiet. Even the large ones don't make much noise.
> Drive out to a site where they have them and judge for yourself. Don't
> let the fearmongers decide for you.
> Yeah! We have the Mass. Blowhard, Sen. Teddy Kennedy, fighting them on
coastal MA. Sez they mess up their views!
> > Solar Panels: Is there still a shortage of them? How much for a
> > 120V, 20 amp setup?
>
> The oil companies own most of the solar panel producers, and strangely
> enough, they stay expensive and hard to get. :-( But you can still get
> them for a small installation. Maybe not the "ideal" ones you want at
> "great" price; but ones that are reasonable.
>
> 120v at 20amp (peak) is 2400 watts. Present prices for PV panels is
> around $6/watt and up, so this is about $14,000 worth (without
> installation, inverters, batteries, or other parts). That's a big system!
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release Date: 1/13/07
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, the temperature dependent resistance does not allow you
to measure the resistance & current for the situation that
it is hot, while it is cold. Run it like you want to use it,
then measure the current and you are OK.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 6:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PTC Heater fuse
At 01:49 PM 14/01/07 -0600, Lee Hart wrote:
>No, the ceramic heaters don't work as thermoelectric generators. There are
>some small thermoelectric effects, but only what you get when any two
>dissimilar metals are in contact and there is a temperature difference
>between them.
But is there enough thermocouple effect to throw a DMM for a doozy? (being
lazy here, as I'd need to find the spare ceramic elements that I've got
stashed away to do my own measurements).
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you ever in your life hear the slogan "All new"?
Solar panels can be had starting at about $4 per watt.
That is the current bottom price and it has been near this
level for about 10 years now.
That is not a solar system (you need to add everything for
mechanical and electrical installation, charge controller,
inverter, batteries and whatever else you like to be in
the package). We are just talking about the panels here.
I also did not throw any grants/subsidies/... into it.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of JS
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 8:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Solar Cell prices
"Solar cells are already mass produced, so all we are talking about is
producing them in large mass produced quantities. I don't see that making
a significant reduction in their price."
http://www.nanosolar.com/
Promises a "significant" reduction in prices.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
The polycrystalline ones work better (than amorphous) but cost more to
make.
I am not sure about "better". Depends on site conditions.
More efficient in direct sunlight? Yes.
But I have seen a triple-junction (Uni-Solar) amorphous silicon array kick
out the current in "pea soup" type fog.
This array-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/CSpage.html
I am sold after seeing that.
Polycrystalline and monocrystalline both require direct sunlight to work
adequately.
Amorphous just needs "daylight" to provide useable output.
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes has
it all. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are others CIGS cell producers coming online with large
capacities. HelioVolt, Miasole , Konarka and others.
The problem is, that demand far outstrips the supply in this market,
so prices will likely not drop even with cheap to produce non-silicon
based thin film cells becoming available.
-kert
On 1/15/07, JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Solar cells are already mass produced, so all we are talking about is
producing them in large mass produced quantities. I don't see that making
a significant reduction in their price."
http://www.nanosolar.com/
Promises a "significant" reduction in prices.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Arthur and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV costs, production, Sunrise
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:19:31 -0500
>> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
>> > New methods of construction in cars get you a 4 door
>> > glider that weighs 1000lbs
>>
>> Jerry Dycus wrote:
>> The Sunrise does that already and more EV'ers
>> should help support Lee Hart to get it done faster so
>> those who want excellent EV's on 4 wheels, 4 passenger
>> will have something available.
>
>I like the Sunrise. What is there to do, in order to help?
> Lee?
Lee's put a fair amount into it already and could
use some cash help either from future buyers or from EVers
that just want good EV's to finally be available. He'd like
to put more in but he has a family to feed.
Micro loans to him are the best legal way as
deposits on it can't be used for building, instead has to be
put in a escrow account.
People helping me this way will shortly pay off for
a great 2 seater 3wh EV and the Sunrise can be the same for
those who need a great 4wh-4 passenger EV. If one has the
bucks for a 45kw li-ion batt pack, it should do around a 400
mile range and more than a 100 mile range on inexpensive
lead batts!!! It's published energy use is about
100wthrs/mile.
If people can help with cash for the plug finishing,
production mold making and the first composite body by
professionals, he could do what he does best, all the other
parts an EV needs like the EV Dash he's doing to replace the
fragile E Meter, EV drive, suspension, ect.
He has some good body/FG people who are working at a
low cost but lack of cash for materials in quanity, slows
that down.
A good way is if people could send him say
$25-100/month which was my plan on the Freedom EV though
that didn't work out as well as I thought, angels like Bob
Rice, Lee Hart, Mark, and many others have taken up the
slack. So anyone who wants great EV's who can afford it,
please help Lee, the EV cause out by supporting him. He has
given us so much over the yrs and time we helped him!!! And
he is shy about asking for help which is why I'm pushing it.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>> Jerry Dycus wrote:
>> When people buy reasonable EV parts for reasonable
>> EV's!!
>> You want mega power, 600kw of controller which
>> equals more hp than is available on any mass produced car
>> and now you want it cheap?
>> And just what are you putting it in? Why? If
>> racing, you have to pay to play. If anything else, it's
>> overkill. If you want to save money then you are
>> doing it completely wrong.
>
>Agreed!
>
>- Arthur
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:29 PM 15/01/07 +1100, I wrote:
At 01:49 PM 14/01/07 -0600, Lee Hart wrote:
No, the ceramic heaters don't work as thermoelectric generators. There
are some small thermoelectric effects, but only what you get when any two
dissimilar metals are in contact and there is a temperature difference
between them.
But is there enough thermocouple effect to throw a DMM for a doozy? (being
lazy here, as I'd need to find the spare ceramic elements that I've got
stashed away to do my own measurements).
G'day All
OK, I stopped being lazy and dug out a ceramic heater element and made some
tests. Heater element is two co-joined elements (share a center tap) of
110VAC rated.
Experiment 1) Thermocouple effect.
@ 20C measures 170 ohms. Compared to the powered measurement of the third
experiment of 120R per element, a significant difference to the ohm-meter
measurement, particularly that experimental error from the thermocouple
position would tend to lag the temperature so when the third experiment
experiment measured 20C on warm-up the elements may have already been
closer to 25C.
Experiment 2) peltier effect: Thermocouple placed into non-powered element
fins, on side toward powered element, other element operated until 200C on
the thermocouple. Element placed on face of fire brick with upper side
exposed (so fins away from heated element will be radiating significantly,
but temperature not measured). Measure resistance one polarity: 16 ohms.
reverse connection: 53 ohms. Identical results with quality meter and
chicom meter. This would indicate that with a significant temperature
difference across the element a small peltier/thermocouple effect is
present, but so small to be no effect unless the experiment is forced like
this.
Experiment 3) resistance curve, for two elements in paralell (one element
would be double the resistance). Elements sandwiched between two fire
bricks so zero airflow, but conduction into bricks and radiant off sides of
elements. Measured voltage at the element plus current (both with quality
meters) and converted using ohms' law. Thermocouple placed into the fins
between two elements. 35 volts used to heat up slowly (20V below zero C).
Start temperature of elements and fire bricks close to -20C out of freezer:
-15C 115R
-10C 108R
-5C 98R
0C 89R
10C 72R
20C 60R
30C 50R
40C 43R
50C 38R
60C 33R
70C 29R5
80C 26R5
90C 23R8
100C 21R6
110C 19R6
120C 18R1
130C 16R6
140C 15R6
150C 15R5
160C 13R8
170C 13R4
180C 13R
190C 12R7
200C 12R8
210C 13R2 (up to this point 35V used)
220C 14R (50V used)
230C 19R2
240C 22R7
250C 49R3 (70V)
255C 102R (100V)
260C 230R (200V applied and had no more available)
265C 457R
266C 463R (no more increase in temp after 20 mins.)
So when cold the element draws significantly less than when hot, so there
is NO 'inrush' on warm-up. With this particular heater element, a fast-blow
fuse would be better than a slow-blow or motor start time-delay. If the
element were installed one of three connected together, and were turned on
at 10C with 144V applied (72/3 = 24R) 6 amps would initially flow (864W).
At maximum element temperature, 33 amps would flow (4.7kW!) unless
significant losses occured elsewhere in the system.
Ultimate temperatures reached in the order of 265 degrees celcius with 200V
applied. Lower voltage and minimal airflow would have stabilised at 255 to
260C, demonstrating the withstand temperature of the mounting needed.
Measuring a cold element with a multimeter should produce results 'in the
ballpark', but to determine a suitable fuse it seems that it will be
necessary to allow the element to heat up and see what the maximum current
draw is, as a cold measurement or a wattage statement are possibly not
useful to size a fuse from.
And reducing the airflow rate to get hotter air has a double whammy - the
element will get hotter BECAUSE it is hotter and deliver more energy!
So there you go - results of a test, your results may vary.
Regards
[Technik] James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why is it that some curtises whine and others don't? I'm curious.
Regards,
Nikki
-----Original Message-----
From: "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: 15/01/07 01:20
Subject: Curtis 1221B
> I need help finding a Curtis 1221B controller.
If you don't mind the whine (doesn't bother me), I put a 1221C up on
Ebay this afternoon.
Brian
Alfa Romeo Electric Conversion
http://www/skewray.com/alfa
--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:04 AM 15/01/07 -0500, Nikki wrote:
Why is it that some curtises whine and others don't? I'm curious.
G'day Nikki, and All
Normally a controller designed in recent years switches at 15 thousand
times per second, or faster. Most controllers turn on at each time a
1/15000th of a secons is up, regardless of what the motor current is doing.
In order to current limit effectively a controller has to be able to
current limit within those 1/15000 second pulses. If the current changes
rate slowly, then there is plenty of time. But if the current changes
rapidly, then hangs in there at an over-current rate, then the controller
turns on again *whilst still in overcurrent*, and things go bang.
To overcome this, the "whiner" Curtis controller models switch at a slower
rate when needed (this was cheaper for Curtis than making the current
limiting faster). So you hear the 2500 times per second switching,
squealing away.
Lee Hart made a great post years ago, reposted many times, which I saved,
and here it is (enjoy whilst you learn):
=================
The First 10 Feet With A Curtis :-) by Lee Hart
Just what is going on inside your controller as you accelerate?
17 Jul 2000 (Written June 1998) Adapted from a posting to the Electric
Vehicle Discussion List
Curtis "B" model controllers (1209B, 1221B, etc.) can have a problem
smoothly starting very large motors (like the Advanced DC 9").
The "B" model controllers run at 15 KHz. Normal motors have enough
inductance so the current does not build up too fast, and enough resistance
so the current decays fast enough. The controller can keep up with it even
at 15 KHz.
Here's how it is supposed to work :-)
The Scene
Control room in a Curtis "B" model controller. Big clock on the wall says
"15 KHz"; its face has 66 microseconds per revolution, and it "chimes"
every time the hand comes back around to the top.
The Cast
A droopy looking guy watches an amp gauge.
Dozens of identical Midgets Operating a big Switch For Each Thumb (MOSFETs)
sit in rows at their panels.
The Commander sits at the command center, listening to the phone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Commander: "The boss just called; he says give 'er just a little throttle.
Droopy, you watch that amp gauge. OK, men... Ready... set..."
Clock On Wall: "Bong"
Commander: (Shouts) "Go!"
MOSFETs: (All yell) "Switch on!"
Dozens of hands shove dozens of switches closed, all in unison. Current
slowly begins to build. The mighty vehicle begins to move majestically
forward as the microseconds pass. At about quarter past, Droopy clears his
throat.
Droopy: "Uhh, the current is getting kinda high, sir. It's 500, no 510;
no, make that 521 amps. Maybe we should..."
Commander: (Glancing at the ammeter) "Hey, we're at max current. Current
limit, everyone!"
MOSFETs: (All shout) "Switch off."
Accelleration stops, as the motor's current diverts to flow through the
freewheel diodes. The motor is just coasting now. Current slowly falls as
the motor resistance causes the current to gradually decay.
Commander: "Droopy, you've got to be on your toes. If that current had
risen any faster, we could have had real trouble..."
Clock On Wall: "Bong"
Commander: "OK, back to work."
The MOSFETs all close their switches and the cycle repeats.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's how it is supposed to work. But with a big, low inductance, low
resistance motor, the controller can't switch off fast enough to properly
limit the current. Excessive current means excessive torque, which means a
jerky start. Like this :-) Clock On Wall: "Bong"
Commander: "Go!"
MOSFETs: (All yell) "Switch on!"
The current rises fast, inspiring a tremendous burst of accelleration.
Within microseconds, Droopy sees it climb all the way through the green,
the yellow, and into the red zone.
Droopy: "I, err, um, the current is over 500, err 600, no make that 700
amps, sir!"
Commander: "What, already? Ohmygod; turn it off, quick! Emergency current
limit!
MOSFETs: (All yell) "Switch off."
Current shifts to the freewheel diodes. But due to the low resistance,
it doesn't fall; it hangs there, barely dropping as the microseconds tick by.
Clock On Wall: "Bong"
Commander: (Shouts) "Go!"
MOSFETs: "Switch on!"
Droopy: "B-b-b-but the current is still 700 amps. No, now it's 800... 900
..."
Commander: (Yells) "Aarrgh. Current limit, current limit!"
This process continues, with the motor current above the desired value
because the controller can't respond fast enough to limit it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curtis changed their "C" models (1221C, 1231C, etc.) to reduce the clock
speed from 15 KHz to 1.5 KHz for throttle positions less than 15%. This
gives the controller 10 times more time to let the current drop before the
next turn-on cycle. You may hear an audible tone, but the motor will start
smoothly with no jerk.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jurgen,
This information might be useful:
http://www.evsource.com/faqs/netgain/why_choose_warp.php
-Ryan
On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:30:49 -0600, Jurgen Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience with the NetGain Warp9 motor? (
> www.go-ev.com/motors.html )
> How about in comparison to the ADC FB1-4001s?
>
> Thanks,
> Jurgen Schmidt
> San Antonio, TX
>
> PS: Please keep the [JGS-EV] in the header of your reply so I can search
> for my messages and their replies.
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Professional grade electric vehicle parts and resources
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can I please request that one area be set up especially FOR socia-
economic discussion. I keep getting more and more good arguments to
drive ev's an plug-in hybrids, but posting them gets me a bad rep at
the moment.
Good Luck with this project, I'm very sure it will snowball
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> EVMechanic.net created; php BBS being configured, I hope to have
> something functional the first of the week. "... I suspect that
many of
> the people who read this won't switch ..." , I don't specifically
care
> if they immediately switch or not, just that there is
participation.
> Eventually a community will evolve if there is interest. A message
> after yours states a concern of messaging, that is solved by simply
> subscribing to specific forums and there can be an email
notification.
> Slow??? only if your internet connection is slow, but then again
you'd
> know that if your downloading 57+ email messages at a time anyway.
Some
> arguments against a BBS are simply not valid. Pull the plug on the
> listserv ... not necessary, in fact it would be a hand augmentation
to
> the BBS.
>
> Continuing with "just" a listserv is limiting foresight and
hindering
> hindsight, it's like using lead acid when there's lithium, metal
halide
> and other sources of power available that are simply more efficient
> (abet the cost argument ... but what is our motivation for doing
this
> anyway??).
>
> Either way, the domain is registered, host setup, php package
picked,
> as soon as the graphics are minimized it'll be up and running.
Anyone
> wanting to help, shoot me an email off list. To make things
interesting
> and consolidate the digging us nuboobies have to endure, I think
I'll
> add an advertisers section for a compilation of advertiser
links ... and
> do the same for all those fantastic individual sites, audio and
video.
> I've already found several RSS feeds that look interesting.
Potential
> enduser feedback in building the site is appreciated.
>
>
> Brian M. Sutin wrote:
> >> This listserv really should be changed over to a BBS. I think
I'm gonna
> >> opt out given the volume to topic ratio without any way to
categorize
> >> the topics.
> >>
> >
> > I agree. In fact, I would be happy to create to create a domain
and put
> > up a forum, which would take a few days at most and cost
nothing. On the
> > other hand, I suspect that many of the people who read this won't
switch
> > over, and the only result would be to dilute the community.
Unless the
> > list mavens promised to pull the plug on the list once the forum
were in
> > place, creating a forum isn't really very productive.
> >
> > As a suggestion, Switch to digest mode. That's only 1-3 emails a
day.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good Morning Jerry,
Well put.
What is his address?
Does he have a pay pal account or something we can use?
He has some good body/FG people who are working at a
low cost but lack of cash for materials in quanity, slows
that down.
A good way is if people could send him say
$25-100/month which was my plan on the Freedom EV though
that didn't work out as well as I thought, angels like Bob
Rice, Lee Hart, Mark, and many others have taken up the
slack. So anyone who wants great EV's who can afford it,
please help Lee, the EV cause out by supporting him. He has
given us so much over the yrs and time we helped him!!! And
he is shy about asking for help which is why I'm pushing it.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
Sincerely,
Doug Mckee
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stuart, welcome to the list.
You understand our situation perfectly.
This is why I get so excited when an OEM starts doing
something progressive. After all, the RAV-4EV by
Toyota had a complex management system which took into
consideration pressure and temperature to properly
charge the NiMH batts. in there. Personally,
I feel as if I'm picking up crumbs outside a great
restaurant, waiting to go inside and eat, but the
restaurant is very exclusive, and I'm not allowed to
even see a menu. There's probably a better analogy,
but it works for me.
I find myself waiting for the next oil crisis...
All the best,
--- Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is my first post and I'd like to first of all
> thank the members of this
> list for a great information resource. I've been
> reading past
> posts/archives for a few months now to learn what I
> can about doing an EV
> conversion. I've done some planning and
> calculations for an EV conversion
> and can't seem to get past the issue of getting a
> reasonable range in the
> type of vehicle I would like. My budget is $30-35K.
>
> Here is my need list:
> - seating capacity for 4 adults (jump seats in
> pickups don't qualify)
> - a range of 100 km (~60 miles)
> - safety / insurance / licensing issues:
> - final conversion must not exceeding the
> original GVWR of the
> vehicle, including 4 adults (~600 lbs)
> - the vehicle's body (including unibody) can
> not be altered (e.g. for
> locating batteries)
>
> Here is my want list:
> - I want to be able to demonstrate that EVs can have
> better acceleration
> performance than ICE vehicles (but don't care about
> top speed)
> - all wheel drive
>
> What is killing me on my calculations is the GVWR
> restriction, assuming use
> of AGM lead acid batteries to get reasonable
> performance. Here's an
> example:
>
> A 2002 Chevy S-10 CrewCab has a GVWR of 5150 lbs,
> and payload of 1100 lbs.
> Since the payload has to include passengers the
> removal of the ICE roughly
> balances the passenger weight, which means you have
> 1100 lbs to use for
> batteries, motors, etc. Assuming even using all of
> this for say optima YT
> batteries @ 43 lbs each, gives me 25 batteries.
> This would provide 16.5 kWh
> of energy, which assuming 300 wh/mile and even 100%
> DOD would not give the
> needed range.
>
> Moving up to a full size pickup like say a F150
> crewcab which has a legal
> payload of 1600 lbs to try to increase battery
> capacity still does not give
> the required range, especially considering the
> likely increased wh/mile
> consumption.
>
> Moving down in size, I don't know of any cars that
> have a high enough GVWR
> and low curb weight (again this must be the legal
> GVWR).
>
> I spent some time reading about the Saft/BB600 NiCds
> to improve the
> energy/weight issue, but from what I've read these
> batteries can not
> reliably handle currents above 250A, and have
> availability issues. Spending
> 20K on a lithium pack does not seem reasonable if
> you would only get 1000
> charge/discharge cycles, and does not leave much
> budget for the rest of the
> conversion.
>
> Is a conversion with my limitations possible? I'd
> appreciate any comments.
>
> Thanks
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Share your opinion and enter to win! Please complete
> this survey to enter
> into a draw for a grand prize of $500 or one of
> twenty $50 cash prizes.
> http://www.youthographyinsiders.com/R.aspx?a=116
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just an FYI to the list. I have contacted
logisystemscontrollers a couple of times by phone in
the last 6 months. This evlist keeps placing them as
if they are a supplier of EV controllers.
THEY ARE NOT YET an direct supplier or provider. You
need to provide a dead unit to give to them before you
can receive a rebuilt one. They use your dead core to
place their upgraded parts into.
When I called called in July they were working on a
new box to insert their parts into. 3 months was
estimate. When I called in December they still have
not working out the box issues and they have stopped
doing Curtis upgrades and are working out an over
heating problem. The sales Engineer I talked to was
saying something about returns due to cooling issues.
Lots of power and not enough heat sink from the Curtis
boxes in my impression.
So if you really need a controller now, I would
suggest your local Golf cart shop or one of the EV
providers that has controllers available from the
list. Just another FYI the EV provider on this list
seem to be very competitively priced compared to my
local Golf cart shops.Especially when it comes to
Curtis and Alltrax products. Sorry for the bad news.
--- Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This site will have it at 1/2 the normal price
>
> http://www.logisystemscontrollers.com/index.html
>
> Bob
>
> Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I need help finding a Curtis 1221B controller.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thought this was hysterical, and a good way to diffuse the argument from folks
that like to "hear" their motor. lmost cheap enough for a giggle.
http://www.vroombox.com/
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Talking about re-newables: Should there be somebody who has some
experience with bio-gas, pls. contact me off list. We are currently
planning to build a small(er) scale system. It's not the problem to
produce the gas, it's much more difficult to get the gas cleaned for use
with generators.
We own a ranch in South Texas. We have plenty of sun, but solar panels are
just too expensive. Wind is cheaper - but more unreliable (at least here).
We did some experimenting with solar pools (1 acre pond, black lined with
salt water) that would give us huge amounts of almost boiling hot water.
Usually one would use the temp. differential to drive a generator (like an
a/c unit in reverse ;) - but we didn't find any suppliers for small(er)
scale systems.
'nuff said for the EV list.
mm.
>
>> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>> I doubt that increased demand would make these products significantly
>>> cheaper.
>>
>> Sure it would! There is very little that is all that special about wind
>> generators. Mass production could have a dramatic effect on their
>> prices.
>
> Well that was sort of my point, there is nothing special about wind
> turbines which is why they are currently fairly cheap. For just the
> turbine (generator and blades) small ones can be bought for about $1 a
> watt and large ones can be found for 1/2 of that.
>
> However, the turbine itself is only a small part of the total
> installation. The other parts (regulators, tower, batteries, wire, etc.)
> are already mass produced so are unlikely to get any cheaper.
> Even if you cut the price of the turbine in 1/2, it won't make a large
> difference in the total installation cost.
>
> Solar cells are already mass produced, so all we are talking about is
> producing them in large mass produced quantities. I don't see that making
> a significant reduction in their price.
>
> If you shop around, you can buy complete panels for under $4 a watt in
> quantity, perhaps a bit more if you pay for delivery.
> I've bought small panels for as little $2.60 a watt new, delivered.
>>
>> f supply and demand is allowed to work, and really large quantities of
>> a product get built, its price tends to fall to slightly over the cost
>> of its raw materials. Both windmills and PV panels tend to use
>> relatively small quantities of inexpensive materials; so I think there
>> is real hope.
>>
>> PV panels are built with semicondutors, which are basically refined
>> dirt. The amorphous ones have a lot of room for cost reductions from
>> mass production (the 'holy grail' is to figure out how to make solar
>> shingles cheaply). The polycrystalline ones work better but cost more to
>> make. The monocrystalline ones are using recycled wafers from the
>> semiconductor industry, but that's an erratic source of supply.
>>
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
--- End Message ---
