EV Digest 6302
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: For those that miss the ICE rev
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Aviation batteries
by Jennifer Herzberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Second car definition
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: For those that miss the ICE rev
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: For those that miss the ICE rev
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Elcat EV's for Sale
by Geoff Linkleter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Promised technology ( was Re: Solar Cell prices
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Helping Lee Hart, RE: EV costs, production of the Sunrise
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: For those that miss the ICE rev
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: For those that miss the ICE rev
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: For those that miss the ICE rev
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Drive a Trolley (was: Lisbon Electric Trolley Pictures)
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Curtis 1221B
by Nikki Bloomfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) We're stateside...looking for drives!
by Nikki Bloomfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
by "Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Drive a Trolley (was: Lisbon Electric Trolley Pictures)
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Results of test, was: Re: PTC Heater fuse
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: GVWR limitation for EV conversions
> Stuart, welcome to the list.
> You understand our situation perfectly.
> This is why I get so excited when an OEM starts doing
> something progressive. After all, the RAV-4EV by
> Toyota had a complex management system which took into
> consideration pressure and temperature to properly
> charge the NiMH batts. in there. Personally,
> I feel as if I'm picking up crumbs outside a great
> restaurant, waiting to go inside and eat, but the
> restaurant is very exclusive, and I'm not allowed to
> even see a menu. There's probably a better analogy,
> but it works for me.
> I find myself waiting for the next oil crisis...
> All the best,
>
>
> --- Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > This is my first post and I'd like to first of all
> > thank the members of this
> > list for a great information resource. I've been
> > reading past
> > posts/archives for a few months now to learn what I
> > can about doing an EV
> > conversion. I've done some planning and
> > calculations for an EV conversion
> > and can't seem to get past the issue of getting a
> > reasonable range in the
> > type of vehicle I would like. My budget is $30-35K.
> >
> > Here is my need list:
> > - seating capacity for 4 adults (jump seats in
> > pickups don't qualify)
> > - a range of 100 km (~60 miles)
> > - safety / insurance / licensing issues:
> > - final conversion must not exceeding the
> > original GVWR of the
> > vehicle, including 4 adults (~600 lbs)
> > - the vehicle's body (including unibody) can
> > not be altered (e.g. for
> > locating batteries)
> >
> > Here is my want list:
> > - I want to be able to demonstrate that EVs can have
> > better acceleration
> > performance than ICE vehicles (but don't care about
> > top speed)
> > - all wheel drive
> >
> > What is killing me on my calculations is the GVWR
> > restriction, assuming use
> > of AGM lead acid batteries to get reasonable
> > performance. Here's an
> > example:
> >
> > A 2002 Chevy S-10 CrewCab has a GVWR of 5150 lbs,
> > and payload of 1100 lbs.
> > Since the payload has to include passengers the
> > removal of the ICE roughly
> > balances the passenger weight, which means you have
> > 1100 lbs to use for
> > batteries, motors, etc. Assuming even using all of
> > this for say optima YT
> > batteries @ 43 lbs each, gives me 25 batteries.
> > This would provide 16.5 kWh
> > of energy, which assuming 300 wh/mile and even 100%
> > DOD would not give the
> > needed range.
> >
> > Moving up to a full size pickup like say a F150
> > crewcab which has a legal
> > payload of 1600 lbs to try to increase battery
> > capacity still does not give
> > the required range, especially considering the
> > likely increased wh/mile
> > consumption.
> >
> > Moving down in size, I don't know of any cars that
> > have a high enough GVWR
> > and low curb weight (again this must be the legal
> > GVWR).
> >
> > I spent some time reading about the Saft/BB600 NiCds
> > to improve the
> > energy/weight issue, but from what I've read these
> > batteries can not
> > reliably handle currents above 250A, and have
> > availability issues. Spending
> > 20K on a lithium pack does not seem reasonable if
> > you would only get 1000
> > charge/discharge cycles, and does not leave much
> > budget for the rest of the
> > conversion.
> >
> > Is a conversion with my limitations possible? I'd
> > appreciate any comments.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> Hi Stuart;
Boy! Are you a tough customer!But you ask and make some good points! We
all wish for what you are looking for. A conversion is an excersize in
Masochism, to begin with. You have to have about half the weight of the car
in batteries, for a decent range highway car! For example 1200 lbs
battereri stuffed in a VW Rabbit!This puts you up to 3100 lbs BEFORE I load
MY dead ass in! So if I have had two BIG guyz in it and that pushes it up
to3600 lbs BEFORE I stop off at Home Despot!Of course I had to beef up the
springs and brakes, GVW for the Rabbit is about 2800 lbs? So I have gone
pretty much 1000 over at times? I often say "Don't try this at home!"Of
course I built Rabbit for a spicific job, to do a 50 mile RT commute without
plugging in at work. Turned out I COULD plugitin, after all, in a trainyard
full of electric trains, what's a few amps among friends?But there were
times the outlets were ICEd, so I had to get home all UPHILL, on the juice I
had brought with me!
The range issue is why the streets aren't full of EV's. But after all, as
the guy said on WKtEV" Electrics would satisfy only 90 percent of American
drivers", the ones that only drive 20-30 miles a day. A lot of newbees just
want to replace their gasser with an EV. But think of an EV as a second,"
Gofur" car. The Gasser sits in state, in the warm garage, awaiting it call
to go to see Aunt Tilly in Toledo, a 700 mile run for me in CT. The rest of
the time the EV is used, to work, pick up the groceries, take the brats to
soccor practice, drop off WKtEV vid at the library. What!? You didn't BUY a
copy for yourself? All those errands that chew up a gas car. I'm afraid we
hafta look at EV's as a second car. Or Rent a gas when ya have too go on
long trips.
The other thing with a EV, especially a conversion, you did yourself is
the pride of ownership. YOU did it! And it's YOUR statement, FOR EV's and it
can be done. Like if I can build one WHYthehell can't GM, Toyota, Ford,
Crapsler, on and on?So, bottom line here, be ready to accept some range
sacrifices for now, think Better Batteries. But don't hold your breath. I
have been intoo EV's for about 40 years, and the miricle battery has been
"Just around the corner". But times are getting better. The miricle battery
is HERE, but politics keep it from us, for now. Maybe the next national
energency will shake it loose?
It's too bad it has to work this way.The EV's issues arent technical, but
political. OK I'm getting out of line here. Flame me Off List on these
comments, if ya must!?
Seeya at BBB
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:05 AM
Subject: For those that miss the ICE rev
> Thought this was hysterical, and a good way to diffuse the argument from
folks that like to "hear" their motor. lmost cheap enough for a giggle.
>
> http://www.vroombox.com/
>
> Mike
>
> Checked it out. No Space Shuttle launch, old trolley cars, EMD F-40
locomotives , Baldwin switchers or Fairbanks Morse opposed piston engines,
Winton Gas engines or Acela or Bullit trains, Queen Mary sailings or Titanic
engine room sounds. Jet Blue takeoff, White Zombie launches. Feh! They have
a lot to do in the sound dept. Oh! I missed the biggie :a GG-1 E lokie at
speed in it's full 240 tons of glory<g>!Google 'GG-1" for pix! Woulda
sounded great on the turnpike!>
Seeya at BBB?
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info, Eric. I am an EV rookie and balancing is
something I didn't consider and don't have the knowledge to do. Could
you inform me further? When you wrote regs I am assuming you meant a
capacity the car currently has to regulate and balance individual 12
volt battery power.
So what you are telling me is that when I use 24 volt batteries I
should expect some difficulties in getting the batteries to charge
evenly, is this correct?
My main concern is not to do any damage to the equipment in my 93 Geo
Metro Force, because tentative future plans are to get a new battery
bank. But, yes, these batteries are free and I only need 6 to reach 144
volt.
Thanks, Alan Herzberg
Eric Poulsen wrote:
These are listed as "turbine starter" batteries, and are not really
suited to EV (deep discharge) usage.
You might get some cycles out of them. If they're free, it might be
worth it; of course, you have to deal with the weird connector, plus
balancing, as any regs you have won't work, unless they're 24V.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote
."the EV is used, to work, pick up the groceries, take the brats to
soccor practice, drop off WKtEV vid at the library. What!? You didn't BUY a
copy for yourself? All those errands that chew up a gas car. I'm afraid we
hafta look at EV's as a second car.:
This sounds like the EV is the primary car, the ICE is the second car.
It only took a month of EV driving to make my ICE the second car.
John in Sylmar, CA PV EV, looking forward to crushing my GM
ICE!
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For $30,000-$35,000, you probably have the budget to include enough
Li-ion cells in your conversion to give you 60 miles of range at an
acceptable weight. Let's say your conversion gets 250 wh/mile. You'd
need around 15kwh to achieve 60 miles. Thundersky cells, for example,
at around $7.00 per kwh, would cost $10,500. Add 30% if you want to
drain the cells to only 70% DOD, so still only $15,000. This leaves you
$15,000-$20,000 for the rest of the conversion.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We'll be there.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: For those that miss the ICE rev
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:05 AM
Subject: For those that miss the ICE rev
Thought this was hysterical, and a good way to diffuse the argument from
folks that like to "hear" their motor. lmost cheap enough for a giggle.
http://www.vroombox.com/
Mike
Checked it out. No Space Shuttle launch, old trolley cars, EMD F-40
locomotives , Baldwin switchers or Fairbanks Morse opposed piston engines,
Winton Gas engines or Acela or Bullit trains, Queen Mary sailings or
Titanic
engine room sounds. Jet Blue takeoff, White Zombie launches. Feh! They
have
a lot to do in the sound dept. Oh! I missed the biggie :a GG-1 E lokie at
speed in it's full 240 tons of glory<g>!Google 'GG-1" for pix! Woulda
sounded great on the turnpike!>
Seeya at BBB?
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's weak!!!
I have a sound system that I generate any type of sound you want. I can
blast your doors off.
I also recorded my sounds from my Cam AM group 7 race car. I been thinking
of installing two 6 inch chrome exhaust tips with 6 inch speaker in them, so
I can blast off the hood of a car that is getting too close to me.
My best sounds are a science fiction type of UFO sounds that have a waving
pulsating sounds. That gets them every time when I use it to take off with
a lot of blinking lights. This sound would be good for a drag EV.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: For those that miss the ICE rev
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:05 AM
> Subject: For those that miss the ICE rev
>
>
> > Thought this was hysterical, and a good way to diffuse the argument from
> folks that like to "hear" their motor. lmost cheap enough for a giggle.
> >
> > http://www.vroombox.com/
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Checked it out. No Space Shuttle launch, old trolley cars, EMD F-40
> locomotives , Baldwin switchers or Fairbanks Morse opposed piston engines,
> Winton Gas engines or Acela or Bullit trains, Queen Mary sailings or
> Titanic
> engine room sounds. Jet Blue takeoff, White Zombie launches. Feh! They
> have
> a lot to do in the sound dept. Oh! I missed the biggie :a GG-1 E lokie at
> speed in it's full 240 tons of glory<g>!Google 'GG-1" for pix! Woulda
> sounded great on the turnpike!>
>
> Seeya at BBB?
>
> Bob
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
UK listers might be interested in the attached:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Elcat-Cityvan-202P-Electric-Vehicle_W0QQitemZ270078215340QQihZ017QQcategoryZ123878QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Looks expensive to me, but if you follow the links you will also find there are
some second hand ones for sale.
There are also a number for sale missing components.
I am not familiar with the ev side of these vehicles. Would any of the Finnish
listers like to talk us through the motor / controller / battery arrangements
(DC with regen?). What are the strong / weak points. Will the motor /
controller stand a battery voltage upgrade to increase performance?
Geoff
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple Business Insurance Quotes
Compare multiple quotes for the best rates on business insurance.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes we've been promised significant advances in solar tech for decades
now. Just like we've been promised "Super batteries" at significantly
reduced cost for decades.
You can't spend promises and, personally, I never depend on them. Too
many disapointments in that area.
> "Solar cells are already mass produced, so all we are talking about is
> producing them in large mass produced quantities. I don't see that making
> a significant reduction in their price."
>
> http://www.nanosolar.com/
>
> Promises a "significant" reduction in prices.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good suggestion, but this Thundersky li-ion might conflict with 2 things:
- I want to be able to demonstrate that EVs can have better acceleration
performance than ICE vehicles (but don't care about top speed)
- all wheel drive (less efficient)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
For $30,000-$35,000, you probably have the budget to include enough
Li-ion cells in your conversion to give you 60 miles of range at an
acceptable weight. Let's say your conversion gets 250 wh/mile. You'd
need around 15kwh to achieve 60 miles. Thundersky cells, for example,
at around $7.00 per kwh, would cost $10,500. Add 30% if you want to
drain the cells to only 70% DOD, so still only $15,000. This leaves you
$15,000-$20,000 for the rest of the conversion.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Doug McKee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: EV costs, production of the Sunrise
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 06:30:26 -0600
>Good Morning Jerry,
>Well put.
It's hard to say enough about either the Sunrise or
Lee Hart, both are the best of EV's and Ev'ers. A more
productive, knowledgeable, honest, giving man would be hard
to find and the Sunrise range records are still unbeaten in
it's class, a real world class sedan.
I'd bet if one of the original 8-10 or so, no one
knows for sure, were to come on E bay that ran, it would
bring $75k+. One sold not running needing a bunch of work,
batts, went for $25k a couple yrs ago.
Another good thing is if doesn't have to learn, do
the FG, he can finish the EV Dash, a product EV's really
need along with all that stuff a car needs. Luckily we have
all the parts list so much can be bought from stock or junk
yard stock. So once the glass part is done, the rest should
be fairly easy.
>What is his address?
Lee A. Hart
814 8th Ave N
Sartell MN 56377, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Does he have a pay pal account or something we can use?
Not sure. He may be traveling this weekend as he
usually posts daily or it can just be sent to the above
address. And let him know if you want a Sunrise glider when
they are ready or just a loan or donation to help the EV
cause.
Lee, got your ears on for how people can help you?
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
> He has some good body/FG people who are working at
>a low cost but lack of cash for materials in quanity, slows
>that down.
> A good way is if people could send him say
>$25-100/month which was my plan on the Freedom EV though
>that didn't work out as well as I thought, angels like Bob
>Rice, Lee Hart, Mark, and many others have taken up the
>slack. So anyone who wants great EV's who can afford it,
>please help Lee, the EV cause out by supporting him. He has
>given us so much over the yrs and time we helped him!!! And
>he is shy about asking for help which is why I'm pushing
>it.
> Thanks,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>Sincerely,
>Doug Mckee
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jan 15, 2007, at 7:05 AM, Mike Harvey wrote:
Thought this was hysterical, and a good way to diffuse the argument
from folks that like to "hear" their motor.
Actually, I think this would be a safety feature in an EV! Not that it
wouldn't also be hysterical :)
lmost cheap enough for a giggle.
The price doesn't include the amp and speakers. (The website suggests
waterproof marine speakers.)
If they added the Jetson's flying car sounds, I might just get out my
checkbook. Assuming it could be made to work without the "required"
vacuum sensor, and without a tach signal while at the stop light. I
sent them an email.
I wonder if John Wayland will be interested? Could be a nice accessory
for Blue Meanie :)
Regardless if he wants one himself, I would be interested in his
professional opinion on the recommended amp and speaker setup.
http://www.vroombox.com/
Mike
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In Canada, you need to now stay below GVWR with passengers and payload. It
is no longer acceptable to put on better springs and a few better bits and
pieces and justify the reason for a higher GVWR without full recertification
of the vehicle. This law was changed fairly recently (2004 or 2005, I
think). Vehicle insurance is also void if you don't comply with the law.
That's what's keeping me from building my EV yet - so far my calculations
indicate that I can't keep below GVWR and get the range that I would like -
even using a lightweight brushless drive system. Lithiums are the only way I
can see pulling this off now.
Legally, in Canada, the weight of the EV drive system and batteries has to
be equal to the weight you take off by removing the ICE, fuel tank, and
whatever weight you can pull off. That is because the rated payload and
passenger weight ratings need to be respected unless you recertify your
vehicle.
It may be possible for a registered professional engineer to design/analyze
the components used and the conversion - Transport Canada may accept a
properly written-up report and issue a new sticker.
The reason for these new laws is not the stop EV's, but rather, to stop
people from overloading the remainder of the vehicle (brakes, tires) by
putting on large, heavy, accessories (like campers, or those industrial
service boxes). Basically you can't legally take a 1/2 ton truck and put a 2
ton box on the back.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My cat has the loudest purrr, I can easily hear her from across the
room. When I put my ear up against her she sounds like the deepest V8
engine. I've been playing with the idea of recording it and playing it
back as the engine sound in my (still in progress) EV.
Gives a whole new meaning to "purs like a kitten".
On 1/15/07, Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Jan 15, 2007, at 7:05 AM, Mike Harvey wrote:
> Thought this was hysterical, and a good way to diffuse the argument
> from folks that like to "hear" their motor.
Actually, I think this would be a safety feature in an EV! Not that it
wouldn't also be hysterical :)
> lmost cheap enough for a giggle.
The price doesn't include the amp and speakers. (The website suggests
waterproof marine speakers.)
If they added the Jetson's flying car sounds, I might just get out my
checkbook. Assuming it could be made to work without the "required"
vacuum sensor, and without a tach signal while at the stop light. I
sent them an email.
I wonder if John Wayland will be interested? Could be a nice accessory
for Blue Meanie :)
Regardless if he wants one himself, I would be interested in his
professional opinion on the recommended amp and speaker setup.
>
> http://www.vroombox.com/
>
> Mike
>
>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:26 AM 1/15/2007, Dale Ulan wrote:
Legally, in Canada, the weight of the EV drive system and batteries has to
be equal to the weight you take off by removing the ICE, fuel tank, and
whatever weight you can pull off. That is because the rated payload and
passenger weight ratings need to be respected unless you recertify your
vehicle.
So you can't put the battery pack in the bed and call it
cargo? (Assuming a small pickup truck conversion)
I think a small pickup is about the only vehicle where you can stay
under GVW with a conversion.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem is that since it follows the engine sound and we do not have any
engine sound it would be silent on an EV. I thought the Harley sound would
be great for my chopped electric scooter with the ape hanger handle bars and
leather saddlebags. Too bad it won't work. I already have the speakers
mounted in my bags.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 6:05 AM
Subject: For those that miss the ICE rev
Thought this was hysterical, and a good way to diffuse the argument from
folks that like to "hear" their motor. lmost cheap enough for a giggle.
http://www.vroombox.com/
Mike
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Bill etc.,
Nice pictures. It's been a while since I rode those Lisbon trolleys,
but I rode the Warsaw trolleys in 2006.
I suppose that trolleys are EVs and appropriate for discussion here.
So, how many of you have driven one? If you are ever in the area of
Kennebunkport ME, please visit the Seashore Trolley Museum. Ask about
their "Be a Motorman Program." In 1995 I donated $50 to drive a trolley
out to the end of the line and back with my family aboard. It was an
incredible experience. And, the $50 went to the worthy cause of
preserving these historic vehicles.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fantastic! Thanks! My curtis 1204x is really quiet but the curtis in the reva
I recently drove wasn't. Now I Now why!
-----Original Message-----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: 15/01/07 06:29
Subject: RE: Curtis 1221B
At 06:04 AM 15/01/07 -0500, Nikki wrote:
>Why is it that some curtises whine and others don't? I'm curious.
G'day Nikki, and All
Normally a controller designed in recent years switches at 15 thousand
times per second, or faster. Most controllers turn on at each time a
1/15000th of a secons is up, regardless of what the motor current is doing.
In order to current limit effectively a controller has to be able to
current limit within those 1/15000 second pulses. If the current changes
rate slowly, then there is plenty of time. But if the current changes
rapidly, then hangs in there at an over-current rate, then the controller
turns on again *whilst still in overcurrent*, and things go bang.
To overcome this, the "whiner" Curtis controller models switch at a slower
rate when needed (this was cheaper for Curtis than making the current
limiting faster). So you hear the 2500 times per second switching,
squealing away.
Lee Hart made a great post years ago, reposted many times, which I saved,
and here it is (enjoy whilst you learn):
=================
The First 10 Feet With A Curtis :-) by Lee Hart
Just what is going on inside your controller as you accelerate?
17 Jul 2000 (Written June 1998) Adapted from a posting to the Electric
Vehicle Discussion List
Curtis "B" model controllers (1209B, 1221B, etc.) can have a problem
smoothly starting very large motors (like the Advanced DC 9").
The "B" model controllers run at 15 KHz. Normal motors have enough
inductance so the current does not build up too fast, and enough resistance
so the current decays fast enough. The controller can keep up with it even
at 15 KHz.
Here's how it is supposed to work :-)
The Scene
Control room in a Curtis "B" model controller. Big clock on the wall says
"15 KHz"; its face has 66 microseconds per revolution, and it "chimes"
every time the hand comes back around to the top.
The Cast
A droopy looking guy watches an amp gauge.
Dozens of identical Midgets Operating a big Switch For Each Thumb (MOSFETs)
sit in rows at their panels.
The Commander sits at the command center, listening to the phone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Commander: "The boss just called; he says give 'er just a little throttle.
Droopy, you watch that amp gauge. OK, men... Ready... set..."
Clock On Wall: "Bong"
Commander: (Shouts) "Go!"
MOSFETs: (All yell) "Switch on!"
Dozens of hands shove dozens of switches closed, all in unison. Current
slowly begins to build. The mighty vehicle begins to move majestically
forward as the microseconds pass. At about quarter past, Droopy clears his
throat.
Droopy: "Uhh, the current is getting kinda high, sir. It's 500, no 510;
no, make that 521 amps. Maybe we should..."
Commander: (Glancing at the ammeter) "Hey, we're at max current. Current
limit, everyone!"
MOSFETs: (All shout) "Switch off."
Accelleration stops, as the motor's current diverts to flow through the
freewheel diodes. The motor is just coasting now. Current slowly falls as
the motor resistance causes the current to gradually decay.
Commander: "Droopy, you've got to be on your toes. If that current had
risen any faster, we could have had real trouble..."
Clock On Wall: "Bong"
Commander: "OK, back to work."
The MOSFETs all close their switches and the cycle repeats.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's how it is supposed to work. But with a big, low inductance, low
resistance motor, the controller can't switch off fast enough to properly
limit the current. Excessive current means excessive torque, which means a
jerky start. Like this :-) Clock On Wall: "Bong"
Commander: "Go!"
MOSFETs: (All yell) "Switch on!"
The current rises fast, inspiring a tremendous burst of accelleration.
Within microseconds, Droopy sees it climb all the way through the green,
the yellow, and into the red zone.
Droopy: "I, err, um, the current is over 500, err 600, no make that 700
amps, sir!"
Commander: "What, already? Ohmygod; turn it off, quick! Emergency current
limit!
MOSFETs: (All yell) "Switch off."
Current shifts to the freewheel diodes. But due to the low resistance,
it doesn't fall; it hangs there, barely dropping as the microseconds tick by.
Clock On Wall: "Bong"
Commander: (Shouts) "Go!"
MOSFETs: "Switch on!"
Droopy: "B-b-b-but the current is still 700 amps. No, now it's 800... 900
..."
Commander: (Yells) "Aarrgh. Current limit, current limit!"
This process continues, with the motor current above the desired value
because the controller can't respond fast enough to limit it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curtis changed their "C" models (1221C, 1231C, etc.) to reduce the clock
speed from 15 KHz to 1.5 KHz for throttle positions less than 15%. This
gives the controller 10 times more time to let the current drop before the
next turn-on cycle. You may hear an audible tone, but the motor will start
smoothly with no jerk.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks!!
This is just a quick note to say that my partner and I are going to be visiting
the EVADC meet in Bethesda MD tomorrow night. We're going to do a little
presentation on UK EVs and have some copies of the latest Battery Vechile
Review from the BVS to share around.
We'd love to also visit anyone who has an EV to show. We'd like to video some
EVs to take back to the UK with us. We're here till saturday.
Finally, is there aywhere we can get the ev charging signs and pee on gas
stickers in the greater dc area???
Cheers!
Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Dale and all the others who have provided comments.
I'm in Canada and was somewhat aware of the GVWR issue, which was the reason
for my main restriction based on weight. One specific question: Do you
know if you need to include a specific #kgs per seatbeat when you calculate
the legal payload for a vehicle, or can you simply use the weight of the
passengers that are actually using the vehicle?
Also, if I were to use a truck for conversion I was thinking of mounting
custom built battery boxes along the frame rather than put them in the cargo
bed. This would lower the center of gravity, distribute the front/back load
better, and allow the bed to be used for (light) loads. Do you think the
"powers that be" would consider the battery boxes on the frame an illegal
addition?
Thanks,
Stuart
From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:26:34 -0700
In Canada, you need to now stay below GVWR with passengers and payload. It
is no longer acceptable to put on better springs and a few better bits and
pieces and justify the reason for a higher GVWR without full recertification
of the vehicle. This law was changed fairly recently (2004 or 2005, I
think). Vehicle insurance is also void if you don't comply with the law.
That's what's keeping me from building my EV yet - so far my calculations
indicate that I can't keep below GVWR and get the range that I would like -
even using a lightweight brushless drive system. Lithiums are the only way I
can see pulling this off now.
Legally, in Canada, the weight of the EV drive system and batteries has to
be equal to the weight you take off by removing the ICE, fuel tank, and
whatever weight you can pull off. That is because the rated payload and
passenger weight ratings need to be respected unless you recertify your
vehicle.
It may be possible for a registered professional engineer to design/analyze
the components used and the conversion - Transport Canada may accept a
properly written-up report and issue a new sticker.
The reason for these new laws is not the stop EV's, but rather, to stop
people from overloading the remainder of the vehicle (brakes, tires) by
putting on large, heavy, accessories (like campers, or those industrial
service boxes). Basically you can't legally take a 1/2 ton truck and put a 2
ton box on the back.
-Dale
_________________________________________________________________
Dont waste time standing in linetry shopping online. Visit Sympatico / MSN
Shopping today! http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, Michael A. Radtke wrote:
Bill etc.,
Nice pictures. It's been a while since I rode those Lisbon trolleys,
but I rode the Warsaw trolleys in 2006.
I suppose that trolleys are EVs and appropriate for discussion here.
So, how many of you have driven one?
Yo. At Baltimore Streetcar Museum as well as at the Pennsylvania Trolley
Museum.
At Baltimore I had the experience of running several including some with
old (lapping) brakes and controllers which make what we have in even the
simplest of our cars look very advanced.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I calculated mine based on vehicle weight plus the
towing/cargo capacity, which was clearly indicated in
the glove compartment, and on the door panel.
As to your next question, many EVers put the
batteries nice and low between the frame rails.
Hope this helps,
--- Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks Dale and all the others who have provided
> comments.
>
> I'm in Canada and was somewhat aware of the GVWR
> issue, which was the reason
> for my main restriction based on weight. One
> specific question: Do you
> know if you need to include a specific #kgs per
> seatbeat when you calculate
> the legal payload for a vehicle, or can you simply
> use the weight of the
> passengers that are actually using the vehicle?
>
> Also, if I were to use a truck for conversion I was
> thinking of mounting
> custom built battery boxes along the frame rather
> than put them in the cargo
> bed. This would lower the center of gravity,
> distribute the front/back load
> better, and allow the bed to be used for (light)
> loads. Do you think the
> "powers that be" would consider the battery boxes on
> the frame an illegal
> addition?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stuart
>
> From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: GVWR limitation for EV conversions,
> Comments
> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:26:34 -0700
>
> In Canada, you need to now stay below GVWR with
> passengers and payload. It
> is no longer acceptable to put on better springs and
> a few better bits and
> pieces and justify the reason for a higher GVWR
> without full recertification
> of the vehicle. This law was changed fairly recently
> (2004 or 2005, I
> think). Vehicle insurance is also void if you don't
> comply with the law.
>
> That's what's keeping me from building my EV yet -
> so far my calculations
> indicate that I can't keep below GVWR and get the
> range that I would like -
> even using a lightweight brushless drive system.
> Lithiums are the only way I
> can see pulling this off now.
>
> Legally, in Canada, the weight of the EV drive
> system and batteries has to
> be equal to the weight you take off by removing the
> ICE, fuel tank, and
> whatever weight you can pull off. That is because
> the rated payload and
> passenger weight ratings need to be respected unless
> you recertify your
> vehicle.
>
> It may be possible for a registered professional
> engineer to design/analyze
> the components used and the conversion - Transport
> Canada may accept a
> properly written-up report and issue a new sticker.
>
> The reason for these new laws is not the stop EV's,
> but rather, to stop
> people from overloading the remainder of the vehicle
> (brakes, tires) by
> putting on large, heavy, accessories (like campers,
> or those industrial
> service boxes). Basically you can't legally take a
> 1/2 ton truck and put a 2
> ton box on the back.
>
> -Dale
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Dont waste time standing in linetry shopping
> online. Visit Sympatico / MSN
> Shopping today! http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems like you could still accomplish your goals with Thundersky's LPF
cells. These deliver 3C continuous and 5C pulses. Buy 50 of their
150Ah cells for $15000, giving 24Kwh.. Put in a Zilla with two motors.
On acceleration, each motor in series gets 450A at 3C. so great torque
and acceleration. In parallel once you're up to speed, each motor gets
over 150V, which will give you a nice top velocity. Cells are rated for
1500 cycles at 70% DOD, so you should get around 100,000 miles out of
them.
See http://www.everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm
Bill Dennis
Dmitri wrote:
Good suggestion, but this Thundersky li-ion might conflict with 2 things:
- I want to be able to demonstrate that EVs can have better
acceleration performance than ICE vehicles (but don't care about top
speed)
- all wheel drive (less efficient)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
For $30,000-$35,000, you probably have the budget to include enough
Li-ion cells in your conversion to give you 60 miles of range at an
acceptable weight. Let's say your conversion gets 250 wh/mile.
You'd need around 15kwh to achieve 60 miles. Thundersky cells, for
example, at around $7.00 per kwh, would cost $10,500. Add 30% if you
want to drain the cells to only 70% DOD, so still only $15,000. This
leaves you $15,000-$20,000 for the rest of the conversion.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your "resistance curve" by another name?:
I haven't found references to confirm, but it may be that the ceramic
heaters use what's called the ferroelectric effect which occurs with various
combinations of ceramic materials. One of the best known ferroelectric
ceramics is Barium Titanate. The ferroelectric materials exhibit
permitivity changes with temperature, often rising in a weak exponential,
then peaking steeply at a certain temperature ("Curie Point") and dropping
off after---thereby offering the potential for being a single-element
heater-thermostat.
In 1981, I used Barium Titanate in a lab in college as part of a mini
thermal oven.
My engineering Prof. explained the unique characteristics of the material
and had suggested that someone could make a novel thermostatic heater with
the right ferroelectric ceramic material combination.
But alas, I wasn't interested in chemistry and lost interest...
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
> Experiment 1) Thermocouple effect.
> Experiment 2) peltier effect: Thermocouple placed into
> Experiment 3) resistance curve, for two elements in paralell (one element
> Start temperature of elements and fire bricks close to -20C out
> of freezer:
> -15C 115R
> -10C 108R
> -5C 98R
> 0C 89R
> 10C 72R
> 20C 60R
> 30C 50R
> 40C 43R
> 50C 38R
> 60C 33R
> 70C 29R5
> 80C 26R5
> 90C 23R8
> 100C 21R6
> 110C 19R6
> 120C 18R1
> 130C 16R6
> 140C 15R6
> 150C 15R5
> 160C 13R8
> 170C 13R4
> 180C 13R
> 190C 12R7
> 200C 12R8
> 210C 13R2 (up to this point 35V used)
> 220C 14R (50V used)
> 230C 19R2
> 240C 22R7
> 250C 49R3 (70V)
> 255C 102R (100V)
> 260C 230R (200V applied and had no more available)
> 265C 457R
> 266C 463R (no more increase in temp after 20 mins.)
>
> So when cold the element draws significantly less than when hot, so there
> is NO 'inrush' on warm-up. With this particular heater element, a
> fast-blow
> fuse would be better than a slow-blow or motor start time-delay. If the
> element were installed one of three connected together, and were
> turned on
> at 10C with 144V applied (72/3 = 24R) 6 amps would initially flow (864W).
> At maximum element temperature, 33 amps would flow (4.7kW!) unless
> significant losses occured elsewhere in the system.
>
> Ultimate temperatures reached in the order of 265 degrees celcius
> with 200V
> applied. Lower voltage and minimal airflow would have stabilised
> at 255 to
> 260C, demonstrating the withstand temperature of the mounting needed.
>
> Measuring a cold element with a multimeter should produce results 'in the
> ballpark', but to determine a suitable fuse it seems that it will be
> necessary to allow the element to heat up and see what the
> maximum current
> draw is, as a cold measurement or a wattage statement are possibly not
> useful to size a fuse from.
>
> And reducing the airflow rate to get hotter air has a double whammy - the
> element will get hotter BECAUSE it is hotter and deliver more energy!
>
> So there you go - results of a test, your results may vary.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James.
>
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