EV Digest 6317
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Zap, Lotus engineering study electric car concepts
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EEstor
by "Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EEstor
by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: GVWR limitation for EV conversions, Comments
by "Jonathon Lemus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Funding a conversion
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Sunnyvale Caltrain Station EV Charging?
by "Rodriguez, Jennifer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NOISY SLOW Volt Video
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Sunnyvale Caltrain Station EV Charging?
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EEstor
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV where to start
by Rachael Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EEstor
by "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EEstor
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting. Does anyone have to time to look up this article....
Zap, Lotus engineering study electric car concepts
Jan 18, 2007 11:04 AM
Electric car developer ZAP has enlisted the aid of automotive design firm Lotus
Engineering for electric vehicle engineering concept studies that include the
integration of major components, new motor designs, controllers, batteries and
charging systems.
http://autoelectronics.com/news/zap_lotus_study_0118/index.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd have to agree with Greg here (but maybe not the tone of the answer).
Down-regulating the steadily decreasing voltage coming from a discharging
cap to provide a constant voltage to a motor controller can be done. The
scientists and engineers who are developing this product have done their due
diligence, and would not be bothering with such a huge development cost to
develop a product that is not usable due to other technical issues. Also,
Feel Good Cars would not be buying them unless they could use them.
On the voltage safety issue, I've read that some microwaves have 2500V caps,
although these would be smaller caps.
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers provided the venture capital for EESTOR,
and these guys would not be supporting a hack company.
The patent for the company:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20040071944.pdf
IMHO this is the true next generation energy storage device, rather than
tweaking chemical batteries.
From: "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: EEstor
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:17:02 +1030
Hi Roderick,
As an EE I fully understand energy storage in capacitors as well as the
safety issues. I can assure that both are doable and I see no reason why
3,500v is a problem. That Roger suggests the way to lower the voltage is by
reducing the charge voltage is not very cleaver. Designing a DC to DC
converter is part of handling energy storage in caps as the voltage is not
constant and reduces as energy is used. EV's and other devices require
constant voltage so a DC to DC or DC to AC converter is required.
Like I said, this is all doable and Roger's statement would suggest he is
not an EE or doesn't understand that high voltage is what energy storage in
caps is all about. And yes it is lethal, just like any hydrocarbon fuel.
Likewise 250 vdc is just as lethal as 3,500 vdc. Ever played with a
microwave oven power supply?
You just might be interested in what I do as it will explain why I have been
tracking this and other technology for some time now. And yes I do know how
to vet product releases but thanks for the tips.
All the best,
Greg Watson
Green and Gold Energy
Adelaide, South Australia
+61 408 843 089
http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au
Online SunBall discussion group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good to
be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many times is
just various articles based on press releases from the company. The second
thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the product again
and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a scam, just so I
can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible amount of opposing
viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these posts to help me form an
opinion. I suggest that others use this same process when trying to discern
the truth on new products. Here is just one post of many you may find of
interest. It was posted on The Green Car Congress web site on 1/17/07 by
Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage capacity.
Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due to
the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power inverters and
power transformers are typically designed to handle battery voltages from
250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x Voltage Squared,
reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will reduce the storage
capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can explode
violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other stresses that can
lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain reaction, the
entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as fast as a bomb
explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof casing to contain
this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy that can be released
in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber layers that will be very
heavy and costly. You might have better luck making a Compressed Hydrogen
tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2 by itself without O2 cannot
combust. Structural weakness in the carbon fiber tank may allow the H2 to
leak out at a fast rate, but it will not explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor Company
in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU for ZENN
Motor Company will function to specification in operating environments as
sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will weigh less than 100
pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
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--- Begin Message ---
Roderick,
I wasn't the purchasing agent, I was the rig's captain. I can guess that
since they are produced for the oil industry, the price won't be too
compeitive. However, like the aviation industry, motors that don't pass the
magnaflux tests could be sold to us experimental aircraft builders, I'm
guessing that electric motors that for some reason can't pass the battery of
tests for ROV use could be sold to experimenters. I am no longer in that
industry but will do some research on these motors. I was amazed at the small
size of these very powerful motors but at that voltage you do save a lot in
winding size. In ROV use, the motor is open to the sea, hence no need for heat
disipating fins.
Bob
Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Maybe you would care to elaborate on the price of their least expensive
motor and on the price and availability of a 3000 volt controller to control
motor speed so we can all start gearing up for the future when these
batteries come on the market very soon. Please also include information on
their high voltage disconnects. We could use some of them right now for EV
racing. A few hundred volts DC rating would be fine for the time being.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Lemke"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: EEstor
> When I worked in offshore oil exploration we used ROV's that had a 10,000
> foot tether. The 100hp motor was very small and compact for two reason.
> Natural heat sink of the ocean and the only way to get that kind of power
> thru 10,000 feet of wire is to run at 5000 volts. Here is one of many
> sites dealing with motors like this
>
> http://www.submarines-rovs.com/submersible_rov_motors.htm
>
> So they are out there, just need to know where to look.
>
>
> Bob
>
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
> The really funny thing to me is that their target market and their
> exclusive
> marketing agreement is for a 72 volt NEV by Feel Good Cars. Something in
> this picture does not jive in my head. Please go read all the articles you
> can find. The one I posted is one of many as I did say in my post. You may
> want to also research the availability of 3500 volt EV motors or for a
> start
> try finding 1000 volt ones. Concerning high voltage, you are correct that
> higher voltage uses smaller gauge wire to achieve the same watts. That is
> why Europe uses half the copper in their homes as the US does which most
> likely amounts to a waste of resources in the amount of millions if not
> billions of tons of copper. I wonder who thought up that brilliant idea.
> Most likely a copper lobby.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Danny Miller"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:50 AM
> Subject: Re: EEstor
>
>
>>I have been curious about the safety of 52KW HV cap. Man, the explosive
>>potential could be impressive. Or it may just burn, it's hard to say.
>>
>> The guy is whining about the high voltage. It's a big concern, that's for
>> sure, but not insurmountable. What people aren't realizing is EVs really
>> do become more practical at higher voltages and lower current levels. The
>> cable needs extra-special insulation but doesn't need to be thick or have
>> ultra-low resistance terminals. At 3500V vs 120V the wire only needs to
>> carry 1/29th the current. 8ga is more than enough. Other things would of
>> course need to change, the motor would be wound differently and brush
>> motors may be impossible due to the arcing potential of high voltage.
>>
>> So they're actually putting out a cap, but 15KW instead of 52KW? Well
>> that's the sort of degradation from the initial bold proposal I would
>> expect and they might release a bigger version later (or you just put
>> several together). It says "under 100lbs" which is less than half the
>> weight of the proposed 52KW so the energy density isn't all that far off-
>> they apparently just want to start small.
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>>
>>> Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good
>>> to be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many
>>> times is just various articles based on press releases from the company.
>>> The second thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the
>>> product again and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a
>>> scam, just so I can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible
>>> amount of opposing viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these
>>> posts to help me form an opinion. I suggest that others use this same
>>> process when trying to discern the truth on new products. Here is just
>>> one post of many you may find of interest. It was posted on The Green
>>> Car
>>> Congress web site on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
>>>
>>> Roderick Wilde
>>>
>>> By Roger Pham
>>>
>>> "Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage
>>> capacity.
>>> Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
>>> sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
>>> company.
>>> The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due
>>> to the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power
>>> inverters and power transformers are typically designed to handle
>>> battery
>>> voltages from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x
>>> Voltage Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will
>>> reduce the storage capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
>>>
>>> Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
>>> especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can
>>> explode violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other
>>> stresses
>>> that can lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain
>>> reaction, the entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as
>>> fast as a bomb explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof
>>> casing to contain this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy
>>> that can be released in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber
>>> layers that will be very heavy and costly. You might have better luck
>>> making a Compressed Hydrogen tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2
>>> by itself without O2 cannot combust. Structural weakness in the carbon
>>> fiber tank may allow the H2 to leak out at a fast rate, but it will not
>>> explode."
>>>
>>> Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
>>>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
>>> Subject: EEstor
>>>
>>>
>>>> http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
>>>>
>>>> The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
>>>> electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors
>>>> Company.
>>>> EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
>>>> kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor
>>>> Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU
>>>> for ZENN Motor Company will function to specification in operating
>>>> environments as sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will
>>>> weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a
>>>> matter of minutes.
>>>>
>>>> Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.13/632 - Release Date:
>>>> 1/16/2007
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> 1/18/2007
>>
>>
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A possible short-term solution would be to put a limited # of batteries
under the truck bed so you can still make the weight restrictions,
then make a 'removable' range boosting pack that you can slide in/out
of the truck bed for longer trips.
Anyone try anything similar?
>>> Bob Bath <civic with [EMAIL PROTECTED]> 1/15/2007 12:59 PM >>>
I calculated mine based on vehicle weight plus the
towing/cargo capacity, which was clearly indicated in
the glove compartment, and on the door panel.
As to your next question, many EVers put the
batteries nice and low between the frame rails.
Hope this helps,
--- Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks Dale and all the others who have provided
> comments.
>
> Legally, in Canada, the weight of the EV drive
> system and batteries has to
> be equal to the weight you take off by removing the
> ICE, fuel tank, and
> whatever weight you can pull off. That is because
> the rated payload and
> passenger weight ratings need to be respected unless
> you recertify your
> vehicle.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Brandon wrote:
I'm hoping to start my conversion of my Dodge Shadow (
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1033) this summer. I've found all the
parts
I plan to use and totaled the prices. With my DC/PbA conversion, my
estimated cost is around $9000. Being a student, I do not have any
way to
make this kind of money quickly or easily. So, I have been trying to
figure
out how to raise this money and I came to thinking of sponsorship.
Would it
be a good idea to go to my local power company and ask for them to
fund this
"educational project" of mine? Should I also try contacting Trojan,
Curtis,
ADC, etc.? Any advice for getting my car sponsored/paid for?
You may have some luck with a local battery supplier. I doubt they will
give you batteries (unless you are a really good salesman :-) but
perhaps a discount in exchange for a plug.
The best advice to build an EV on the cheap is to use used parts
whenever possible. The best way to accomplish that is to get into the
EV scene - go to shows, talk to other EVers. In short, do what ever you
can do to get on their radar, including asking for specific types of
items on this list when you are ready for them.
I don't want you to think I'm suggesting using less that suitable parts
to meet your goals. Its about finding suitable parts used. For
instance, if you can use an ADC 8 inch motor (and I suspect a Shadow
could quite well) then you can also use a Prestolite MTC-400x motor
(or...) If you want a Zilla (who doesn't :-) you can likely get away
with a used Curtis (it won't be trend setting, but it can work just
fine.)
I refused to build some weak version of an EV for my first attempt. I
didn't need to set records (if fact, the car I converted wouldn't be
allowed on a drag strip.) However, I insisted on a freeway capable EV.
What I found to build it (just the used parts) was:
Prestolite MTC-4001 motor for $800 (including new brush springs)
Curtis 1221B controller for $600
Russco SC-120-SO charger (older black cased type) for $500
Todd PC20-LV for $125
That was in the winter of 1998 (and early 1999) so prices have likely
increased. Still, I'm pretty sure it can be done for $8000 and be a
fully freeway capable vehicle.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know if I can charge my electric moped (EVT 4000e) in the
parking garage there? It uses a standard three-prong household outlet.
I have to go to SF every day for a week and thought it would be nice to
ride my moped to the station instead of driving.
Thanks, Jenn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That thing sounds like a treadmill and in the video it hardly exceeds 5 mph.
I doubt it actually does 120 mile an hour and 0-60 in 9 secs, It looked and
sounded like it was maxed out at 5.
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: NOISY SLOW Volt Video
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 22:50:45 -0600
Tim wrote:
Can you put up a link for the video i can't find it.
Try one or both of these:
http://www.autospies.com/news/DETROIT-AUTO-SHOW-GM-Volt-Concept-in-Action-11478/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1791839763235205955
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--- Begin Message ---
Doesn't look like any standard three-prong household outlets are
there...
http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/94086_3.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rodriguez, Jennifer
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Sunnyvale Caltrain Station EV Charging?
Does anyone know if I can charge my electric moped (EVT 4000e) in the
parking garage there? It uses a standard three-prong household outlet.
I have to go to SF every day for a week and thought it would be nice to
ride my moped to the station instead of driving.
Thanks, Jenn
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--- Begin Message ---
I have read the press releases for KPCB funding EEstor but when I go to the
KPCB web site under their portfolio of private companies they are not
listed. http://www.kpcb.com/portfolio/portfolio.php Could you shed any
further light on this? The Feel Good deal still doesn't feel so good to me
when there are more well funded people out there that they could have
approached with this technology such as Tesla Motors for instance. Maybe
they did approach Tesla, GM and Toyota as well as Panasonic just to name a
few. Maybe they did and just couldn't get the deal they wanted. Maybe I am
just a bit too skeptical. Probably the last fifteen years in this business
has made me so. I need to start having more faith in press releases. I still
do hold out a lot of hope for affordable super batteries and I do believe we
will eventually have them.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: EEstor
I'd have to agree with Greg here (but maybe not the tone of the answer).
Down-regulating the steadily decreasing voltage coming from a discharging
cap to provide a constant voltage to a motor controller can be done. The
scientists and engineers who are developing this product have done their
due diligence, and would not be bothering with such a huge development
cost to develop a product that is not usable due to other technical
issues. Also, Feel Good Cars would not be buying them unless they could
use them.
On the voltage safety issue, I've read that some microwaves have 2500V
caps, although these would be smaller caps.
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers provided the venture capital for EESTOR,
and these guys would not be supporting a hack company.
The patent for the company:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20040071944.pdf
IMHO this is the true next generation energy storage device, rather than
tweaking chemical batteries.
From: "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: EEstor
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:17:02 +1030
Hi Roderick,
As an EE I fully understand energy storage in capacitors as well as the
safety issues. I can assure that both are doable and I see no reason why
3,500v is a problem. That Roger suggests the way to lower the voltage is
by reducing the charge voltage is not very cleaver. Designing a DC to DC
converter is part of handling energy storage in caps as the voltage is not
constant and reduces as energy is used. EV's and other devices require
constant voltage so a DC to DC or DC to AC converter is required.
Like I said, this is all doable and Roger's statement would suggest he is
not an EE or doesn't understand that high voltage is what energy storage
in caps is all about. And yes it is lethal, just like any hydrocarbon
fuel. Likewise 250 vdc is just as lethal as 3,500 vdc. Ever played with a
microwave oven power supply?
You just might be interested in what I do as it will explain why I have
been tracking this and other technology for some time now. And yes I do
know how to vet product releases but thanks for the tips.
All the best,
Greg Watson
Green and Gold Energy
Adelaide, South Australia
+61 408 843 089
http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au
Online SunBall discussion group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good to
be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many times
is just various articles based on press releases from the company. The
second thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the product
again and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a scam, just
so I can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible amount of
opposing viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these posts to help
me form an opinion. I suggest that others use this same process when
trying to discern the truth on new products. Here is just one post of many
you may find of interest. It was posted on The Green Car Congress web site
on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage capacity.
Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due to
the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power inverters
and power transformers are typically designed to handle battery voltages
from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x Voltage
Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will reduce
the storage capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can
explode violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other stresses
that can lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain
reaction, the entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as fast
as a bomb explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof casing
to contain this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy that can
be released in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber layers that
will be very heavy and costly. You might have better luck making a
Compressed Hydrogen tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2 by itself
without O2 cannot combust. Structural weakness in the carbon fiber tank
may allow the H2 to leak out at a fast rate, but it will not explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor
Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU
for ZENN Motor Company will function to specification in operating
environments as sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will
weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a
matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are many EV clubs around the US and Ev'ers
everywhere. But this list is the most reliable info on EV's
you can trust. Much mis-info on EV's around so best check
things out here before you spend money.
To help you better we need more info.
What will you actually use it for on a daily basis?
How far is your commute?
Can you charge at work? If you can saves much, much
costs!!
Where will you drive for terrain type, temp and
EVer's in your area?
>Thanks for the advice,
>Rachael
Your welcome and why we are here to give you a
reliable EV grin ;^D.
Jerry Dycus
Dear Jerry,
yours is by far the most hopeful of all the replies. I checked the exact
mileage of my daily commute and one way it is 66 miles, round up to 70. I
still have to find out if I can charge there, but the good news is I have at
least 9 hours usually before the return trip. The trip itself is in the
central valley of Cal. and is very flat, I don't know any other EV'ers in my
area, but I do know a couple of folks who are interested in it, as I am. Temps
in the winter don't USUALLY get below 30 but we've had unusually cold winter,
and temps in the summer can exceed 110. But we average around between 50
winter and 90 summer. I was begining to feel a little discouraged as the
largest part of my gas usage is in my daily commute and it's the part I most
wanted to elimanate. I'm trying to learn as much as possible. :D
Thanks for the help.
Rachael
ps one more silly question, does anyone know if there is a portable solar
panel that could be used to charge the car up if you can't access a charge any
other way, esp since it sits for 9 hours in the sun each day?
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roderick,
EEstor has been very tight lipped and getting info is like pulling hens
teeth. I tried several times and hit blank walls. That they have finally
done a PR with stats is interesting as they APPEAR to have done their
homework and they do realize how big the potential volume is.
The DC to DC converter will be interesting as it will need a very wide input
voltage range to get the 100% discharge claimed. Unlike batteries which
provide a somewhat constant voltage during discharge, these caps will show
a, in reference to batteries, steep voltage decline and as such they can't
be used in most applications which what to go deep cycle without the DC to
DC converter.
As for why Feel Good and not someone else, well I guess they had to start
somewhere and sometimes small companies are more risk oriented and will go
for what seems like "Blue Sky" scheme.
BTW I'm buying a Prius and doing a plug-in conversion. Of course the
batteries will be charged by SunCubes at our factory. Maybe some day soon I
will install a EEstor energy bank with a LOT more range. I mean 52 kWh is a
lot of energy. We may even put them into our SunCubes so they can generate
AC kWhs 24 / 7.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
I have read the press releases for KPCB funding EEstor but when I go to the
KPCB web site under their portfolio of private companies they are not
listed. http://www.kpcb.com/portfolio/portfolio.php Could you shed any
further light on this? The Feel Good deal still doesn't feel so good to me
when there are more well funded people out there that they could have
approached with this technology such as Tesla Motors for instance. Maybe
they did approach Tesla, GM and Toyota as well as Panasonic just to name a
few. Maybe they did and just couldn't get the deal they wanted. Maybe I am
just a bit too skeptical. Probably the last fifteen years in this business
has made me so. I need to start having more faith in press releases. I
still do hold out a lot of hope for affordable super batteries and I do
believe we will eventually have them.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: EEstor
I'd have to agree with Greg here (but maybe not the tone of the answer).
Down-regulating the steadily decreasing voltage coming from a discharging
cap to provide a constant voltage to a motor controller can be done. The
scientists and engineers who are developing this product have done their
due diligence, and would not be bothering with such a huge development
cost to develop a product that is not usable due to other technical
issues. Also, Feel Good Cars would not be buying them unless they could
use them.
On the voltage safety issue, I've read that some microwaves have 2500V
caps, although these would be smaller caps.
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers provided the venture capital for EESTOR,
and these guys would not be supporting a hack company.
The patent for the company:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20040071944.pdf
IMHO this is the true next generation energy storage device, rather than
tweaking chemical batteries.
From: "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: EEstor
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:17:02 +1030
Hi Roderick,
As an EE I fully understand energy storage in capacitors as well as the
safety issues. I can assure that both are doable and I see no reason why
3,500v is a problem. That Roger suggests the way to lower the voltage is
by reducing the charge voltage is not very cleaver. Designing a DC to DC
converter is part of handling energy storage in caps as the voltage is
not constant and reduces as energy is used. EV's and other devices
require constant voltage so a DC to DC or DC to AC converter is required.
Like I said, this is all doable and Roger's statement would suggest he is
not an EE or doesn't understand that high voltage is what energy storage
in caps is all about. And yes it is lethal, just like any hydrocarbon
fuel. Likewise 250 vdc is just as lethal as 3,500 vdc. Ever played with a
microwave oven power supply?
You just might be interested in what I do as it will explain why I have
been tracking this and other technology for some time now. And yes I do
know how to vet product releases but thanks for the tips.
All the best,
Greg Watson
Green and Gold Energy
Adelaide, South Australia
+61 408 843 089
http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au
Online SunBall discussion group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roderick Wilde"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good
to be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many
times is just various articles based on press releases from the company.
The second thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the
product again and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a
scam, just so I can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible
amount of opposing viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these
posts to help me form an opinion. I suggest that others use this same
process when trying to discern the truth on new products. Here is just
one post of many you may find of interest. It was posted on The Green Car
Congress web site on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage capacity.
Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due
to the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power
inverters and power transformers are typically designed to handle battery
voltages from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x
Voltage Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will
reduce the storage capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can
explode violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other stresses
that can lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain
reaction, the entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as
fast as a bomb explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof
casing to contain this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy
that can be released in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber
layers that will be very heavy and costly. You might have better luck
making a Compressed Hydrogen tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2
by itself without O2 cannot combust. Structural weakness in the carbon
fiber tank may allow the H2 to leak out at a fast rate, but it will not
explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor
Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU
for ZENN Motor Company will function to specification in operating
environments as sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will
weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a
matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
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_________________________________________________________________
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Live Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA
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6:47 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is some second hand info- I just spoke to a Zenn dealer who told
me that the EEstor product would be used in the car within 12 months
and that Feel Good was a supporter for the EEstor product from the
beginning and that's why they have an exclusive. They project a range
of about 220-250. I'm going to look at one of these soon and take a
test drive.
M
On Jan 18, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
I have read the press releases for KPCB funding EEstor but when I
go to the KPCB web site under their portfolio of private companies
they are not listed. http://www.kpcb.com/portfolio/portfolio.php
Could you shed any further light on this? The Feel Good deal still
doesn't feel so good to me when there are more well funded people
out there that they could have approached with this technology such
as Tesla Motors for instance. Maybe they did approach Tesla, GM and
Toyota as well as Panasonic just to name a few. Maybe they did and
just couldn't get the deal they wanted. Maybe I am just a bit too
skeptical. Probably the last fifteen years in this business has
made me so. I need to start having more faith in press releases. I
still do hold out a lot of hope for affordable super batteries and
I do believe we will eventually have them.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: EEstor
I'd have to agree with Greg here (but maybe not the tone of the
answer). Down-regulating the steadily decreasing voltage coming
from a discharging cap to provide a constant voltage to a motor
controller can be done. The scientists and engineers who are
developing this product have done their due diligence, and would
not be bothering with such a huge development cost to develop a
product that is not usable due to other technical issues. Also,
Feel Good Cars would not be buying them unless they could use them.
On the voltage safety issue, I've read that some microwaves have
2500V caps, although these would be smaller caps.
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers provided the venture capital for
EESTOR, and these guys would not be supporting a hack company.
The patent for the company: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/
20040071944.pdf
IMHO this is the true next generation energy storage device,
rather than tweaking chemical batteries.
From: "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: EEstor
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:17:02 +1030
Hi Roderick,
As an EE I fully understand energy storage in capacitors as well
as the safety issues. I can assure that both are doable and I see
no reason why 3,500v is a problem. That Roger suggests the way to
lower the voltage is by reducing the charge voltage is not very
cleaver. Designing a DC to DC converter is part of handling energy
storage in caps as the voltage is not constant and reduces as
energy is used. EV's and other devices require constant voltage so
a DC to DC or DC to AC converter is required.
Like I said, this is all doable and Roger's statement would
suggest he is not an EE or doesn't understand that high voltage is
what energy storage in caps is all about. And yes it is lethal,
just like any hydrocarbon fuel. Likewise 250 vdc is just as lethal
as 3,500 vdc. Ever played with a microwave oven power supply?
You just might be interested in what I do as it will explain why I
have been tracking this and other technology for some time now.
And yes I do know how to vet product releases but thanks for the
tips.
All the best,
Greg Watson
Green and Gold Energy
Adelaide, South Australia
+61 408 843 089
http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au
Online SunBall discussion group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roderick Wilde"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds
too good to be true I first go to Google and read up on the
product which many times is just various articles based on press
releases from the company. The second thing I do is then go to
Google and type in the name of the product again and add the word
scam behind it. Not that I think it is a scam, just so I can read
opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible amount of
opposing viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these posts
to help me form an opinion. I suggest that others use this same
process when trying to discern the truth on new products. Here is
just one post of many you may find of interest. It was posted on
The Green Car Congress web site on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage
capacity. Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic
capacitors for quite sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy
capacity as claimed by EEStor company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads
is due to the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive
power inverters and power transformers are typically designed to
handle battery voltages from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored =
1/2 Capacitance x Voltage Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a
more reasonable 500V will reduce the storage capacity of the
EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very
lethal, especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage
capacitors can explode violently upon aging of the dielectric
material or other stresses that can lower the dielectric property
of the material. In a chain reaction, the entire energy of this
supercapacitor can be released as fast as a bomb explosion. If
you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof casing to contain this
52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy that can be
released in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber layers
that will be very heavy and costly. You might have better luck
making a Compressed Hydrogen tank out of carbon-fiber
reinforcement. H2 by itself without O2 cannot combust. Structural
weakness in the carbon fiber tank may allow the H2 to leak out at
a fast rate, but it will not explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be
used in electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN
Motors Company. EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping
production 15 kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units
(EESU) to ZENN Motor Company in 2007 for use in their electric
vehicles. The production EESU for ZENN Motor Company will
function to specification in operating environments as sever as
negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will weigh less than 100
pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a matter of
minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
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Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.13/634 - Release Date:
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_________________________________________________________________
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with
Windows Live Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA
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