EV Digest 6316
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Hybrid Available
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Saft NiCads
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Spacy UFO Sounds for our EV's I LIKE IT
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: where to start
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: EEstor
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery Beach Burnout/6th EVer Special Update
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Motor Clamp for Prestolite Motor
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EEstor
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EEstor
by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re:where to start
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EEstor
by "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) affordable BMS?
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: affordable BMS?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Automotive Electronics Newsletter
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EEstor
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EEstor
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EEstor
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EEstor
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
1986 Nissan Datsun 300 ZX two door, hatchback, has been converted into
a Hybrid using a Honda Goldwing motorcycle engine connected by cog
belt to a large electric motor. The electric motor is connected to
the driveshaft for rear wheel drive and also to either power steering
or power brakes. There appears to be room in the battery box for six
batteries in the rear and possibly two more up front so I think it is
a 36 or 48 volt system. All the EV parts appear to be there including
full instrumentation (0-160 volt meter, 0-500 amp meter, e-meter),
power relays, some kind of transistorized controller of unknown
manufacture (ZNA 426 120 601 RF300, MAT: 6420 0766 FH9051), but in a
standard casing similar to Curtis. Could it be a Zila ?
The vehicle is located in Brimfield, MA, batteries not included.
It has been registered as a Hybrid in MA back in 1999, insured by
Hanover, and probably has not been driven since, but appears to be in
reasonable condition with all windows in one piece (no cracks) and a
little body rust.
VIN # JN1HZ14S9FX093677, Title: AP074285
Contact David Bell at 413-245-3557 if interested in buying.
Starting asking price is $ 2500, but will probably settle for less
since he will be scrapping the vehicle if he can not get a buyer.
I was told there is a manual written that describes the hybrid
conversion.
He only acquired the vehicle as partial payment for doing a Clean-All
job at the home of the guy that did the conversion.
Original owner got too old to play with this toy.
________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI, I got a quote from Saft for STM5-100 6v 100AH batteries $550 each
air cooled or add $25 each for water cooling. The bad news, 24 week lead
time from then the order is received.
[Garret Maki]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I havent followed this thread too closely so if it was
already mentioned, I apologize in advance.
There is an MP3 player that adjusts the volume and
throttle in relation to the accelerator, as in it has
an idle and accelerate settings. From here
http://www.vroombox.com/
Ad reads as follows:
Make your car sound like any car you want.
Lets face it: youre probably not going to get that
souped up hot rod you always wanted. But at least your
current car can sound like the muscle car of your
dreams.
VroomBox utilizes a powerful microprocessor to
digitally recreate the sound of 15 different cars and
fantasy vehicles, and play them through speakers under
the car. It even includes special effects such as
screeching tires and turbo blow-off valves that
trigger automatically. And you can download more cars
and effects from the web. Sounds and effects are
controlled from a small faceplate with a backlit
display that fits neatly on or under the dash.
I am partial to the vespa sound.
--- "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi David etc,
>
> Yes, I have a copy of Total Recall and bought a
> PMC-25 to put in my Porsche I'm building now because
> I like the sound (and it was cheap). I didn't
> realize it was in the movie, must have been a
> subliminal thing, now I know why I bought it and
> have been making controls that go eeeeee when most
> others think I'm a mutant and should have quiet
> controls. At least I'm not the major cause of road
> kill in Roanoke, VA anymore.
>
> BTW, someone was asking about my resonant mode
> charger, it's patent number 6,218,812 from 2001 and
> on www.uspto.gov (but it doesn't go eeeeee, it's at
> 50kHz
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
> aka (Mork from Ork)
>
>
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected] Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007
> 11:22:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Spacy UFO Sounds for
> our EV's I LIKE I T !! Plain Text Attachment [
> Scan and Save to Computer | Save to Yahoo! Briefcase
> ]
>
>
> On 16 Jan 2007 at 19:33, Rod Hower wrote: >
> Almost all modern > controls switch at frequencies
> above audible for most > humans, but I always
> enjoyed the Jetsons sound of the > TEVan.... The
> film "Total Recall" (yes, the one with the CA
> governator) has EVs providing transportation in
> the domed city where the action takes place.
> Most of them are RQ Riley models, but the sound
> comes not from the models, but from a Honda EV I
> used to own. Many years ago, I bought my '74
> Honda Civic already converted from a CA owner, a
> member of EVAOSC. This is the story he told me, and
> I have no doubt that it's accurate. When
> Total Recall was being made, the producers contacted
> the club to find someone whose electric car they
> could record, and they hooked up with the
> Honda's (now long since former) owner. One
> morning they brought an audio van to his house, set
> up, and recorded the car from every possible
> perspective, inside and out. They
> chose the Honda for the film over another EV
> they recorded. They said they rather liked the
> more audible gear noise from the Honda's
> transmission. Nobody objected to the PMC-25's
> 2kHz chopping rate, either. The car emitted
> that tone very clearly any time it was in current
> limit, not just when creeping around a parking
> lot. (As Mark Hanson points out, it was good for
> warning animals away. ;-) The noise never bothered
> me, and apparently the producers thought it was
> just as appropriate as the gear noise. The way
> they accelerated (usually fast), typically the tone
> is audible for a second or two, sometimes more.
> So, rent Total Recall sometime. That's a real EV
> you hear. Several times, the 2kHz tone is
> plainly audible when one of the cars accelerates.
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EV List
> Administrator
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
> beta.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rachael
If you went a constant 20 miles an hour on flat ground with no stops you
might go 100 miles. As your speed increases the power demand goes up and the
batteries have to give their energy out faster. Doing this they will provide
less energy than if taken at a slower rate. You should read up on batteries and
their ratings. There is a lot of information on the web you can learn on
batteries.
At speeds over 30 miles an hour wind resistance becomes a big factor. You
would be doing well to go 30 or 40 miles at freeway speeds. This is with new
batteries and no heat, AC, rear window defogger or other accessories that drain
power. If you have any Hills or stops that would also shorten your range.
The batteries you want to go 100 miles at 60 miles are here but they are not
being mass produced in a large enough quantity or size that would be
affordable for almost everyone. It would cost at least 20,000 or 30,000 dollars
for
just the batteries to do what you are asking.
The affordable batteries are lead acid and they do have their limitations.
They are heavy take up a lot of space and do not do as well with deep
discharges. You could spend 1500 to 5000 dollars depending on type and
quantity. In a
240 SX you do not have the room or carrying capacity for 2000 pounds of
batteries.
I drive up to 50 miles one way but I must charge when I get there for 3
hours to get back. Electric cars can work for most people if most your driving
one way is under 50 miles and you have enough time to charge.
For longer trips renting a vehicle makes more sense and it cost less in the
long run.
Don
In a message dated 1/18/2007 8:58:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Hi,
> Just joined the list. I have a Nissan 240 sx that I'd like to
convert to an EV. I'm wondering where does someone start with a
project like this?
> I know this is such a "newbie" question, but any suggestions,
advice, help would be greatly appreciated.
> Rachael
>
Matt Graham can probably give you the most appropriate advice -
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/836 - but you may want to start at
lower performance than Joule Injected!
Thanks, I actually came across his website just after sending
this initial message, I've emailed him but haven't heard
back yet. Where he modified for speed, I'd like or hope
to go more for range, I've been reading some, is the idea of
100 miles per charge just not a feasible idea? I don't mind driving
say 55 or something like that if it helps **shrugs** being new I'll ask
the really silly question, is a car that can go 60 and has a 100 mile range
feasible or am I just dreaming? And if it is feasible, can you build one
that has plug-in charging like some hybrid modifiers I hear are doing?
I'd much rather have an EV then even a hybrid, just wondering
if I'm expecting too much?
Thanks for the advice,
Rachael
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote: You may want to also research the availability of
3500 volt EV motors or for a start try finding 1000 volt ones
Just wondering: would it be possible to have a Rudman-developed PFC
charger that could take 3500V input and keep a intermediate string of
lower voltage caps or batteries charged that actually ran the motor? A
PFC-75 can put out 18KW, which seems like enough to run a lot of EVs.
Or, alternatively, are inverters available for this voltage, which
could reduce it down to 500V AC or so? Efficiency might suffer
somewhat, but with the quick recharge times, it may not be an issue.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It'd be nice if somebody could film all this and put up on Google video for
all to see. That would be soo great.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Waggoner, FLEAA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Battery Beach Burnout/6th EVer Special Update
Hi Everyone!
Well, the race and conference planning is fast under way and coming
together
great. So far we have people from the US, Canada and Mexico all planning
on
attending. We have several media crews planning on being to film the
events,
race teams and EV'ers from all over the US and the registrations keep
rolling in every day. Based on the number of registered people, calls and
emails, this looks like it could be one of the biggest EV races ever.
Speaking of racing, the FLEAA is honored to be the ones to announce a very
special car that will be racing at the BBB. Thanks to the hard work of
Bill
Dube and his sponsor A123, Shawn Lawless will be racing the recently
upgraded Orange Juice Dragster with the A123 battery pack out of
KillaCycle
for the weekend! If you are not familiar with Orange Juice in its current
configuration, it is a shorten rail dragster, with 8 Zilla powered LEMCO
motors, now energized by the famous A123 cells from KillaCycle. The whole
dragster with motors, controller and batteries is weighing in less than
1000lbs. Shawn and his team will certainly be putting on a great show! We
can't wait to see what kind of times he can post.thanks to Bill Dube and
A123 for supporting Shawn's Orange Juice.
The rest of the drag strip line is looking very impressive as well.
Besides
Orange Juice, Darin Gilbert of Bad Fish Racing, Matt Graham's Joule
Injected, ProEV's Electric Imp, Miramar's Porsche 944, Brian Hall with
Thunderstruck EV and numerous others will all be out there. There is also
local rumor of a new S-10 with a Warp 13 and a Z2K racing! We will have
close to 30 EV's competing in the competitions throughout the weekend. The
road rally is looking great with numerous long range vehicles taking the
line-up. More rumors of a Valence powered car from GA are surfacing as
well.
Saturday afternoon will bring us the first ever East Coast Scootercross
and
the much anticipated autocross later that day. We will see if ProEV and
their Electric Imp can hold their title from last year. To add to the fun,
we have invited a local road racer to bring his super-charged Acura NSX to
go head-to-head with the EVs.
So after the 2 hard days of racing and action, we will be winding down to
a
much deserved award ceremony and award banquet dinner Saturday night.
There
will be plenty of time to socialize and relax before the conference on
Sunday. Sunday's conference promises to yield a lot of great information
and
discussions.
The FLEAA will be providing a continental style breakfast of bagels,
doughnuts and fruit with coffee Saturday morning at FAU while all the prep
work is under way. There is a group breakfast being planned like were held
at the 5th EVer for Sunday morning.
There is a lot of hard work being put in by numerous people to bring this
all together, but I would like to take a moment and thank our sponsors,
who
without we would not be holding such a grand event:
Headlining the event this year is Vectrix, joined by AC Propulsion, Palm
Beach Toyota, Suncoast EV Outfitters (SEVO), Alltrax Controllers, Hawker
AeroBatteries, Coastal Tire and Auto, ThunderStruck Motors, KTA Services,
and Hi-Torque Electric.
We would also like to thank NEDRA for sanctioning the drag race at the
Battery Beach Burnout.
It is going to be a fantastic event and not one to be missed. It's not too
late to plan on being here. Registration for the events and race is free,
however, the FLEAA does ask that if you are going to attend and are
planning
on being there to please take a moment to register at the website:
http://floridaeaa.org/modules/liaise/?form_id=6 This will allow us to have
your pit pass (name tag) pre-printed and ready for you when you arrive.
Thanks everyone, we look forward to seeing in a little over a week here is
sunny south Florida!
Shawn M. Waggoner
FLEAA
www.floridaeaa.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce wrote:
> I need a motor support for an older Prestolite MTC-4001
> motor. This would be to support the end of the motor
> furthest from the adapter plate and also to torque restrain
> the motor.
The first thing to be aware of is that it is not advised to torque
restrain the motor via the motor mount, especially not a clamp style,
and especially not at the end furthest from the adapter plate.
The preferred method is to torque restrain the motor/tranny pair at the
adapter plate or tranny case, usually with a "dog bone" style
bracket/arm from the adapter plate or tranny to the vehicle chassis.
The clamshell style motor mount is intended/best used to merely support
the weight of the motor, as it cannot resist the torque reaction unless
one or more holes are drilled through it and bolt(s) installed to secure
it to the motor housing.
> I have found clamps for 6.7 inch and 8 inch motors, but not 7.2 inch.
The band clamp that Canadian Electric Vehicles (<http://www.canev.com>)
provided for my ADC8" motor is lined with a spongy material perhaps 1/8"
thick. You might inquire with the vendor of the 6.7" and 8" clamps you
are considering to see if they can be used with your 7.2" motor or not.
I would expect that an 8" clamp could always be used provided you use a
bit of additional lining between it and the motor to take up some of the
difference between the 7.2" motor OD and 7.75-8" clamp ID.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1/18/07, Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Roderick Wilde wrote: You may want to also research the availability of
3500 volt EV motors or for a start try finding 1000 volt ones
Ok here is another:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/electrovaya_int.html
Electrovaya Introduces New Lithium-Ion Battery Technology with Higher
Energy Density
Approximate energy density of the older batteries is 225 Wh/kg and 475
Wh/liter. The new series offers density of beyond 330 Wh/kg and 650
Wh/liter.
With so many groups trying, we are _bound_ to get better batteries,
eventually. Quantum leap in cost/KwH isnt probably going to happen (
if EEStor is for real, they will probably cost kidney/KwH so .. ) but
we will get better until pure BEVs will be the only sensible
drivetrain for cars.
/kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I worked in offshore oil exploration we used ROV's that had a 10,000 foot
tether. The 100hp motor was very small and compact for two reason. Natural heat
sink of the ocean and the only way to get that kind of power thru 10,000 feet
of wire is to run at 5000 volts. Here is one of many sites dealing with motors
like this
http://www.submarines-rovs.com/submersible_rov_motors.htm
So they are out there, just need to know where to look.
Bob
Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The really funny thing to me is that their target market and their exclusive
marketing agreement is for a 72 volt NEV by Feel Good Cars. Something in
this picture does not jive in my head. Please go read all the articles you
can find. The one I posted is one of many as I did say in my post. You may
want to also research the availability of 3500 volt EV motors or for a start
try finding 1000 volt ones. Concerning high voltage, you are correct that
higher voltage uses smaller gauge wire to achieve the same watts. That is
why Europe uses half the copper in their homes as the US does which most
likely amounts to a waste of resources in the amount of millions if not
billions of tons of copper. I wonder who thought up that brilliant idea.
Most likely a copper lobby.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
>I have been curious about the safety of 52KW HV cap. Man, the explosive
>potential could be impressive. Or it may just burn, it's hard to say.
>
> The guy is whining about the high voltage. It's a big concern, that's for
> sure, but not insurmountable. What people aren't realizing is EVs really
> do become more practical at higher voltages and lower current levels. The
> cable needs extra-special insulation but doesn't need to be thick or have
> ultra-low resistance terminals. At 3500V vs 120V the wire only needs to
> carry 1/29th the current. 8ga is more than enough. Other things would of
> course need to change, the motor would be wound differently and brush
> motors may be impossible due to the arcing potential of high voltage.
>
> So they're actually putting out a cap, but 15KW instead of 52KW? Well
> that's the sort of degradation from the initial bold proposal I would
> expect and they might release a bigger version later (or you just put
> several together). It says "under 100lbs" which is less than half the
> weight of the proposed 52KW so the energy density isn't all that far off-
> they apparently just want to start small.
>
> Danny
>
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
>> Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good
>> to be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many
>> times is just various articles based on press releases from the company.
>> The second thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the
>> product again and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a
>> scam, just so I can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible
>> amount of opposing viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these
>> posts to help me form an opinion. I suggest that others use this same
>> process when trying to discern the truth on new products. Here is just
>> one post of many you may find of interest. It was posted on The Green Car
>> Congress web site on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
>>
>> Roderick Wilde
>>
>> By Roger Pham
>>
>> "Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage capacity.
>> Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
>> sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
>> company.
>> The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due
>> to the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power
>> inverters and power transformers are typically designed to handle battery
>> voltages from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x
>> Voltage Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will
>> reduce the storage capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
>>
>> Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
>> especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can
>> explode violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other stresses
>> that can lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain
>> reaction, the entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as
>> fast as a bomb explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof
>> casing to contain this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy
>> that can be released in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber
>> layers that will be very heavy and costly. You might have better luck
>> making a Compressed Hydrogen tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2
>> by itself without O2 cannot combust. Structural weakness in the carbon
>> fiber tank may allow the H2 to leak out at a fast rate, but it will not
>> explode."
>>
>> Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
>>
>> To:
>> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
>> Subject: EEstor
>>
>>
>>> http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
>>>
>>> The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
>>> electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
>>> EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
>>> kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor
>>> Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU
>>> for ZENN Motor Company will function to specification in operating
>>> environments as sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will
>>> weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a
>>> matter of minutes.
>>>
>>> Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.13/632 - Release Date:
>>> 1/16/2007
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.14/637 - Release Date: 1/18/2007
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.14/637 - Release Date: 1/18/2007
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rachael and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Rachael Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re:where to start
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:57:17 -0800 (PST)
>> Hi,
>> Just joined the list. I have a Nissan 240 sx that I'd
>like to convert to an EV. I'm wondering where does someone
>start with a project like this?
>> I know this is such a "newbie" question, but any
>suggestions, advice, help would be greatly appreciated.
>> Rachael
>>
>
>Matt Graham can probably give you the most appropriate
>advice - http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/836 - but you may
>want to start at lower performance than Joule Injected!
>
>Thanks, I actually came across his website just after
>sending this initial message, I've emailed him but haven't
>heard back yet. Where he modified for speed, I'd like or
>hope to go more for range, I've been reading some, is the
>idea of 100 miles per charge just not a feasible idea?
100 mile range in a converted ICE is hard to do but
not impossible. Probably would take throwing money at it.
I
>don't mind driving say 55 or something like that if it
>helps **shrugs** being new I'll ask the really silly
>question, is a car that can go 60 and has a 100 mile range
>feasible or am I just dreaming?
The 240SX is fairly aerodynamic and not too heavy so
not a bad starting point. Another might be a dead Porsche
924-944. You would need probably an AC EV drive and ni-cad
batteries to do it, about $17-20k in parts, 2/3's for the
batteries. If you could find a dead aero kitcar you could do
it on lead batts.
Vs if you can do just a 60 mile range, you could get
by with about $5-8k in parts using reg lead GC batts. A lot
depends on how you drive and how much drag you hunt down,
reduce or eliminate by using better lubes, checking your
brakes, using low rolling resistance tires, lowering air
drag, weight, ect.
If you do a lot of parking in parking garages, they
usually have plugs you can use. I know all those I've went
to in Tampa have them or plug in wherever you park for work
for added range is how most do longer ranges. It costs about
$.02-.04/mile for electric charging costs to whom ever owns
the plug. I alway offer twice that.
One could make a special gas gen to increase range,
charging while you drive or parked if you can't find a plug.
I can look at Matt's to see if one will fit at the BBB.
And if it is feasible, can
>you build one that has plug-in charging like some hybrid
>modifiers I hear are doing?
All EV's have plug in charging except a few custom
units. Hybrids that don't plug in really are not hybrids,
just an ICE with a electric boost, good but not like a plug
in hybrid will be.
I'd much rather have an EV then
>even a hybrid, just wondering if I'm expecting too much?
What you want is doable easily if someone would just
build them, especially ones like the GM Volt or better 150
mile range EV's. The problem is there are no built as an EV
gliders available which all normally get 100+ mile range as
production EV's have shown, even on lead batts, the low
cost, robust choice.
There are many EV clubs around the US and Ev'ers
everywhere. But this list is the most reliable info on EV's
you can trust. Much mis-info on EV's around so best check
things out here before you spend money.
To help you better we need more info.
What will you actually use it for on a daily basis?
How far is your commute?
Can you charge at work? If you can saves much, much
costs!!
Where will you drive for terrain type, temp and
EVer's in your area?
>Thanks for the advice,
>Rachael
Your welcome and why we are here to give you a
reliable EV grin ;^D.
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
>always stay connected to friends.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roderick,
As an EE I fully understand energy storage in capacitors as well as the
safety issues. I can assure that both are doable and I see no reason why
3,500v is a problem. That Roger suggests the way to lower the voltage is by
reducing the charge voltage is not very cleaver. Designing a DC to DC
converter is part of handling energy storage in caps as the voltage is not
constant and reduces as energy is used. EV's and other devices require
constant voltage so a DC to DC or DC to AC converter is required.
Like I said, this is all doable and Roger's statement would suggest he is
not an EE or doesn't understand that high voltage is what energy storage in
caps is all about. And yes it is lethal, just like any hydrocarbon fuel.
Likewise 250 vdc is just as lethal as 3,500 vdc. Ever played with a
microwave oven power supply?
You just might be interested in what I do as it will explain why I have been
tracking this and other technology for some time now. And yes I do know how
to vet product releases but thanks for the tips.
All the best,
Greg Watson
Green and Gold Energy
Adelaide, South Australia
+61 408 843 089
http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au
Online SunBall discussion group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good to
be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many times
is just various articles based on press releases from the company. The
second thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the product
again and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a scam, just
so I can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible amount of
opposing viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these posts to help
me form an opinion. I suggest that others use this same process when
trying to discern the truth on new products. Here is just one post of many
you may find of interest. It was posted on The Green Car Congress web site
on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage capacity.
Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due to
the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power inverters
and power transformers are typically designed to handle battery voltages
from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x Voltage
Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will reduce
the storage capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can
explode violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other stresses
that can lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain
reaction, the entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as fast
as a bomb explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof casing
to contain this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy that can
be released in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber layers that
will be very heavy and costly. You might have better luck making a
Compressed Hydrogen tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2 by itself
without O2 cannot combust. Structural weakness in the carbon fiber tank
may allow the H2 to leak out at a fast rate, but it will not explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor
Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU
for ZENN Motor Company will function to specification in operating
environments as sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will
weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a
matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
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--- Begin Message ---
hello everyone,
does anyone have a suggestion for a affordable BMS? or
is there a free blue print floating around out there
that I can construct my own for <200?
I'm running a string of 10 12V gel's.....
regards,
Brian B
81' Bradley GTII
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:51 PM 1/18/2007, brian baumel wrote:
hello everyone,
does anyone have a suggestion for a affordable BMS? or
is there a free blue print floating around out there
that I can construct my own for <200?
I'm running a string of 10 12V gel's.....
Lets see, there are Lee's Zener Regs (someone is bound to post a link)
There is the EVBMS Yahoo Group that has the schematics and software
for one I built.
Probably a few others as well...
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Several EV related articles on this newsletter....
http://enews.prismb2b.com/enews/powerelectronics/automotive_electronics/current
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe you would care to elaborate on the price of their least expensive
motor and on the price and availability of a 3000 volt controller to control
motor speed so we can all start gearing up for the future when these
batteries come on the market very soon. Please also include information on
their high voltage disconnects. We could use some of them right now for EV
racing. A few hundred volts DC rating would be fine for the time being.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Lemke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: EEstor
When I worked in offshore oil exploration we used ROV's that had a 10,000
foot tether. The 100hp motor was very small and compact for two reason.
Natural heat sink of the ocean and the only way to get that kind of power
thru 10,000 feet of wire is to run at 5000 volts. Here is one of many
sites dealing with motors like this
http://www.submarines-rovs.com/submersible_rov_motors.htm
So they are out there, just need to know where to look.
Bob
Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The really funny thing to me is that their target market and their
exclusive
marketing agreement is for a 72 volt NEV by Feel Good Cars. Something in
this picture does not jive in my head. Please go read all the articles you
can find. The one I posted is one of many as I did say in my post. You may
want to also research the availability of 3500 volt EV motors or for a
start
try finding 1000 volt ones. Concerning high voltage, you are correct that
higher voltage uses smaller gauge wire to achieve the same watts. That is
why Europe uses half the copper in their homes as the US does which most
likely amounts to a waste of resources in the amount of millions if not
billions of tons of copper. I wonder who thought up that brilliant idea.
Most likely a copper lobby.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
I have been curious about the safety of 52KW HV cap. Man, the explosive
potential could be impressive. Or it may just burn, it's hard to say.
The guy is whining about the high voltage. It's a big concern, that's for
sure, but not insurmountable. What people aren't realizing is EVs really
do become more practical at higher voltages and lower current levels. The
cable needs extra-special insulation but doesn't need to be thick or have
ultra-low resistance terminals. At 3500V vs 120V the wire only needs to
carry 1/29th the current. 8ga is more than enough. Other things would of
course need to change, the motor would be wound differently and brush
motors may be impossible due to the arcing potential of high voltage.
So they're actually putting out a cap, but 15KW instead of 52KW? Well
that's the sort of degradation from the initial bold proposal I would
expect and they might release a bigger version later (or you just put
several together). It says "under 100lbs" which is less than half the
weight of the proposed 52KW so the energy density isn't all that far off-
they apparently just want to start small.
Danny
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good
to be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many
times is just various articles based on press releases from the company.
The second thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the
product again and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a
scam, just so I can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible
amount of opposing viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these
posts to help me form an opinion. I suggest that others use this same
process when trying to discern the truth on new products. Here is just
one post of many you may find of interest. It was posted on The Green
Car
Congress web site on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage
capacity.
Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due
to the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power
inverters and power transformers are typically designed to handle
battery
voltages from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x
Voltage Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will
reduce the storage capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can
explode violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other
stresses
that can lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain
reaction, the entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as
fast as a bomb explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof
casing to contain this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy
that can be released in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber
layers that will be very heavy and costly. You might have better luck
making a Compressed Hydrogen tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2
by itself without O2 cannot combust. Structural weakness in the carbon
fiber tank may allow the H2 to leak out at a fast rate, but it will not
explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors
Company.
EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor
Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU
for ZENN Motor Company will function to specification in operating
environments as sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will
weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a
matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
--
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--- Begin Message ---
How so? I know it's not relevant to the deadlyness of the TNT wether
you have 90lbs or 140 lbs but it was relevant to the calculations that
followed.
On 1/18/07, Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This may be the funniest statement I've seen on this list.
Danny
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> First off, 52kWh is 94lbs of TNT not 180
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
330wh/kg?? WOW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: EEstor
On 1/18/07, Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Roderick Wilde wrote: You may want to also research the availability of
3500 volt EV motors or for a start try finding 1000 volt ones
Ok here is another:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/electrovaya_int.html
Electrovaya Introduces New Lithium-Ion Battery Technology with Higher
Energy Density
Approximate energy density of the older batteries is 225 Wh/kg and 475
Wh/liter. The new series offers density of beyond 330 Wh/kg and 650
Wh/liter.
With so many groups trying, we are _bound_ to get better batteries,
eventually. Quantum leap in cost/KwH isnt probably going to happen (
if EEStor is for real, they will probably cost kidney/KwH so .. ) but
we will get better until pure BEVs will be the only sensible
drivetrain for cars.
/kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are certainly some high voltage motors out there- just not for
EVs. They'd have to be redeveloped for EVs first.
Nor are there any readily available controllers, though again, they can
be designed and built.
72V NEV? Huh. I suspect they're looking for an entry level where they
don't have to make a vehicle which meets federal crash standards and the
other 1000 little rules to sell autos in the US. Getting into
automaking is an incredibly tough industry to dive into.
Man, bumping down 3500V to 72V is kind of a stretch- more of a
transformer job than buck converter- but a NEV doesn't typically use
tremendously high power levels anyways.
I wonder how long before something becomes available to enthusiasts to
try to build an EV around?
Danny
Roderick Wilde wrote:
The really funny thing to me is that their target market and their
exclusive marketing agreement is for a 72 volt NEV by Feel Good Cars.
Something in this picture does not jive in my head. Please go read all
the articles you can find. The one I posted is one of many as I did
say in my post. You may want to also research the availability of 3500
volt EV motors or for a start try finding 1000 volt ones. Concerning
high voltage, you are correct that higher voltage uses smaller gauge
wire to achieve the same watts. That is why Europe uses half the
copper in their homes as the US does which most likely amounts to a
waste of resources in the amount of millions if not billions of tons
of copper. I wonder who thought up that brilliant idea. Most likely a
copper lobby.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message ----- From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
I have been curious about the safety of 52KW HV cap. Man, the
explosive potential could be impressive. Or it may just burn, it's
hard to say.
The guy is whining about the high voltage. It's a big concern,
that's for sure, but not insurmountable. What people aren't
realizing is EVs really do become more practical at higher voltages
and lower current levels. The cable needs extra-special insulation
but doesn't need to be thick or have ultra-low resistance terminals.
At 3500V vs 120V the wire only needs to carry 1/29th the current.
8ga is more than enough. Other things would of course need to
change, the motor would be wound differently and brush motors may be
impossible due to the arcing potential of high voltage.
So they're actually putting out a cap, but 15KW instead of 52KW?
Well that's the sort of degradation from the initial bold proposal I
would expect and they might release a bigger version later (or you
just put several together). It says "under 100lbs" which is less
than half the weight of the proposed 52KW so the energy density isn't
all that far off- they apparently just want to start small.
Danny
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too
good to be true I first go to Google and read up on the product
which many times is just various articles based on press releases
from the company. The second thing I do is then go to Google and
type in the name of the product again and add the word scam behind
it. Not that I think it is a scam, just so I can read opposing
viewpoints. If there are an incredible amount of opposing viewpoints
I start to wonder. I read many of these posts to help me form an
opinion. I suggest that others use this same process when trying to
discern the truth on new products. Here is just one post of many you
may find of interest. It was posted on The Green Car Congress web
site on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage
capacity. Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors
for quite sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as
claimed by EEStor company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is
due to the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power
inverters and power transformers are typically designed to handle
battery voltages from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2
Capacitance x Voltage Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a more
reasonable 500V will reduce the storage capacity of the EEstor from
52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can
explode violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other
stresses that can lower the dielectric property of the material. In
a chain reaction, the entire energy of this supercapacitor can be
released as fast as a bomb explosion. If you wanna build a thick,
thick bomb-proof casing to contain this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of
TNT-equivalent) of energy that can be released in a flash, you will
need a lot of carbon fiber layers that will be very heavy and
costly. You might have better luck making a Compressed Hydrogen tank
out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2 by itself without O2 cannot
combust. Structural weakness in the carbon fiber tank may allow the
H2 to leak out at a fast rate, but it will not explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used
in electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors
Company. EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production
15 kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN
Motor Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The
production EESU for ZENN Motor Company will function to
specification in operating environments as sever as negative 20 to
plus 65 degrees Celsius, will weigh less than 100 pounds, and will
have ability to be recharged in a matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
--
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Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.13/632 - Release Date:
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