EV Digest 6340
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: KTA Services no longer sells to hobbyists
by Anthony Nguyen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: KTA Services no longer sells to hobbyists
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: KTA Services no longer sells to hobbyists
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) OT Re: gas station fires??? OT
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Age Old AC vs DC
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does a Terminal
Get? Not very, it shouldn't!)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: KTA Services no longer sells to hobbyists
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Can mixed batteries nimh and lead acid lead to best of both worlds for
an el
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Toyota vs GM
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) GFCI Charging
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Using Vortex Tubes for air conditioning/heating
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Toyota vs GM
by Robert MacDowell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EVs in Edmonton
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Toyota vs GM
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Toyota vs GM
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Toyota vs GM
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: GFCI Charging
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: gas station fires??? (was Re: Battery Monitor Design)
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: KTA Services no longer sells to hobbyists
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Electric "Jeep", Is this project feasable?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Testing the pack
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Testing the pack
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Testing the pack
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Testing the pack
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Testing the pack
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I heard that KTA's owner was retiring and so is closing the business to
new customers, but keeping it open for his previous commercial accounts.
Chuck Hursch wrote:
Was all set to order some parts from KTA, dialed up their #, and
got a recording that they no longer sell to hobbyists. Checked
my EVDL archives, and I see no posting about this, and from the
looks of the postings, nobody has been aware of this, at least to
the extent of posting about it. That's a shame! I really
enjoyed working with Ken Koch. He was always friendly, willing
to explain EV concepts and issues to you, and gave good service.
Tell me I'm having a bad dream! Did I get out of bed today?
Pinch self... Yep, am wide awake. I think KTA is going towards
working with OEM and the like, from what I remember of the voice
message. The phone is 909-949-7914 - check it out for yourself.
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anthony Nguyen wrote:
I heard that KTA's owner was retiring and so is closing the business
to new customers, but keeping it open for his previous commercial
accounts.
Chuck Hursch wrote:
------------------------------
I assumed that KTA was the biz for sale on e-bay - 300069969932
John in Sylmar, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, Ken was always available to help and advise. So much so that he did not
have a life of his own after putting in as much as 14 hours many days. He
will certainly be missed in this industry. He is entering semi-retirement in
order to do some things for himself and his new wife. Rumor has it that he
may be building an electric street rod that will also be raced. He has also
joined the Board of Directors of NEDRA as our Tech Director. I wish Ken all
the best on his new adventure in life.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL post" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:53 PM
Subject: KTA Services no longer sells to hobbyists
Was all set to order some parts from KTA, dialed up their #, and
got a recording that they no longer sell to hobbyists. Checked
my EVDL archives, and I see no posting about this, and from the
looks of the postings, nobody has been aware of this, at least to
the extent of posting about it. That's a shame! I really
enjoyed working with Ken Koch. He was always friendly, willing
to explain EV concepts and issues to you, and gave good service.
Tell me I'm having a bad dream! Did I get out of bed today?
Pinch self... Yep, am wide awake. I think KTA is going towards
working with OEM and the like, from what I remember of the voice
message. The phone is 909-949-7914 - check it out for yourself.
Chuck
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--- Begin Message ---
--- JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wonder how many traffic deaths are due to fire.
> John in Sylmar, CA
> PV EV
Some old stats seen here:
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=94&did=825
"Motor vehicle fires in all police reported crashes occur in about 3 of
every 1000 crashes but occur in 26 of every 1000 fatal crashes, nearly
9 times the rate for all crashes.2 Fire is associated with the more
severe impact crashes which also tend to be fatal crashes so the 9-fold
increase in frequency is not attributable to the incidence of fire
alone. In 1988, there were nearly 1800 deaths in 29,000 fire crashes."
The article goes on to point out that there is a lower incidence of
fatalities today from car fires, because of advances in *medical*
technology and not so much because of improvements in *auto* design.
tks
Lock
Toronto
human-electric hybrid pedestrian
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jan 22, 2007, at 8:11 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I think you'll find that at 1800 amps, the motor's efficiency is
considerably less than 70%, even less than 50%. I'd guess it's down
around 30%.
Remember I2R losses go up at the square of the current.
Perhaps 70% is optimistic, but that is a large 11 inch motor. If the
amps are going through the motor it will be making the torque, so we
are really talking about the rpm that it will come out of current limit
at that voltage. Think about what the White Zombie did with one 11 inch
Kostov motor (low 13's with batteries sagging to 7 volts) I don't think
that would have been possible if the motor efficiency dropped that
severely. I don't know of any motor curves going up high enough for
motors of the size EVs typically use, so I don't see any way to get a
hard answer.
Using the published specs of the *much* smaller 7" Prestolite MTC-4001
I come up with a resistance loss of 28 volts at 1800 amps (armature
plus field resistance equals 0.0153 ohms.) I'm not sure that motor
would take 1800 amps, but the loss would be about 50 kW. If the motor
was actually seeing 200 volts when it was being fed 1800 amps (I'm sure
that would result in a fireball comm for that little motor) the
efficiency hit from resistance would be 14%.
Paul
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck,
Many EV'ers around here (I am in Santa Clara county, south
of SF Bay) and I think that you cable is salvageable with
some manual rework, so don't thrash it just yet.
If you find no better offers, then I will be happy to give
you double what you already were offered and pay for shipping
if I don't travel up north soon, I also have a colleage in
Petaluma, so he may be able to pick those cables up.
Others in SF may have interest in the cables as well.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Chuck Hursch
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:23 PM
To: EVDL post
Subject: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does a Terminal
Get? Not very, it shouldn't!)
I am generating some used cable as I am going through my pack,
putting new cables in to replace the old ones that were getting
hot (which were most all of the cables made at the installation
of the second pack in my car some five years ago - apparently
defective cable that had some oxidation on the strands - I'll try
to post about that some other time). The point of this post is
that a fellow EV'er (and I believe he is on the EVDL also)
prompted me to think about recycling that cable, when I mentioned
I was going to throw the old stuff out. Well, I called my local
recycler, Marin Recycling (Marin is the county where I live), and
they gave me a price of 58 cents/pound, with the insulation
removed from the cable. I doubt it's going to be more than a
couple of pounds with the insulation off. Even if it was ten
pounds, it would barely be worth my time to slice the insulation
off the copper and drive it to the recycling place. There's just
not that much of it. Anybody have different numbers/pound?
Thanks,
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Jan 2007 at 16:27, JS wrote:
> I assumed that KTA was the biz for sale on e-bay - 300069969932
That looks like Rick Doran's Gorilla Vehicles. I think he's been trying to
sell
it for years, but I might be thinking of someone else.
If it be true that Ken Koch is slowing down or closing down, it's a pity.
Twenty years ago, he was one of a very few serving EV hobbyists. Today,
though the market is far from saturated, we're fortunate to have a larger
number of EV parts suppliers. I certainly wouldn't say "Ken won't be
missed," because his experience and expertise are valuable. But if he shuts
down now, it's not as great a loss as it would have been in those days.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually im pretty sure that lead acid has better specific power then nimh
but switch it around and i think you have the right idea.
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Can mixed batteries nimh and lead acid lead to best of both worlds
for an electric vehicle?
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:28:56 -0800
Can mixed batteries nimh and lead acid lead to best of both worlds for an
electric vehicle?
We know lead acid is cheap.
We know nimh retains higher voltage.
I think it would be possible to make an ev with a nimh pack that could be
switched in for high acceleration when needed at higher voltage. When the
lead acids are drooping in performance.
You could run the motor at lower voltage off lead acid and kick in the nimh
for a higher voltage motor switch for better performance.
Total pack cost is lower than all nimh but you could switch in the nimh for
SOME of the performance advantages of a full nimh.
There would be other advantages too.
Might need separate charging swicthes as well but total cost would still be
lower than all nimh.
Sort of a total electric but battery use hybrid.
Plus a home builder could hack together a nimh booster pack from smaller
nimh cells more easily than a whole car.
Thoughts?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and
the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
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--- Begin Message ---
Toyota is becoming the biggest automaker in the world (or something like
that) very soon. I think because they have built and mass produced cheap
hybrids that work. I think GM is losing money because they are still
building clunky gas guzzleing SUVs that no one wants to buy. Thoughts?
_________________________________________________________________
Dont waste time standing in linetry shopping online. Visit Sympatico / MSN
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--- Begin Message ---
FYI, ground-fault circuit interrupters (GFCI) are available in the US in
220/240V configurations, but they are significantly more expensive than
the 110/120V variety.
They are required for use with portable hot tubs and similar wet
environments, but not for "portable equipment" such as my shop
compressor, plasma cutter, or welders.
I would imagine that an electric car is by definition "portable" but
assuming that national electrical code is implemented on the basis of
sensibility or sanity may be assuming too much. The code does, after
all, originate at a national level!
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good point, I recall, OSHA had a problem with the 80 dB output of the
smaller Vortex tube and we had to install a muffler.
mario
> > For dry-air cooling of a machine bit or heat
> > directed at small spots, great. Remember
> > the noise factor, too.
> >
> > Chuck Hays
>
> "Remember the noise factor, too." Not to mention all the drag from
> scooping that much air. You'd probably do better installing a windmill
> atop the car to power your AC pump. <g>
> > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:46:14 -0600 (CST)
> Subject: Re: Using Vortex Tubes for air conditioning/heating let's keep
> this safe!
> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Gamber wrote:
Toyota is becoming the biggest automaker in the world (or something like
that) very soon. I think because they have built and mass produced cheap
hybrids that work. I think GM is losing money because they are still
building clunky gas guzzleing SUVs that no one wants to buy. Thoughts?
Yup, that's the stereotype, all right :) Why would we discuss that?
The fact is, GM moves in mysterious ways. Only Nixon could go to China,
and only GM could build the EV1. By going "All In" when they decided to
build an EV, they made Toyota's RAV4 adaptation look cheap. Their
emerging plays in the hybrid market are equally eccentric, risky and
bold. If you don't know what they are, might I suggest you find out
before writing off GM.
Robert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi i live in calgary and i have heard of a few EVs in edmonton and calgary
but none for sale...
From: Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: EVs in Edmonton
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 06:52:29 -0700
Hi all,
Well the Fowler family has relocated from Sydney, Austrlia to Edmonton,
Canada for the year of 2007.
(We had to leave the EV behind, but it's in good hands. I hope :-)
What sort of EV action is there in Edmonton?
(Not an awful lot mentioned in the archives.)
What about other nearby places? (Yes, I know, nearby is a relative
term.)
We'll be doing a bit of travelling during the school breaks.
Mark
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Agreed.
Yup, that's the stereotype, all right :) Why would we discuss that?
The fact is, GM moves in mysterious ways. Only Nixon could go to China,
and only GM could build the EV1. By going "All In" when they decided to
build an EV, they made Toyota's RAV4 adaptation look cheap. Their
emerging plays in the hybrid market are equally eccentric, risky and
bold. If you don't know what they are, might I suggest you find out
before writing off GM.
Robert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see at least two commercials everyday for toyota hybrids... Iv'e never
seen a GM one.
From: Robert MacDowell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Toyota vs GM
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:42:54 -0800
Tim Gamber wrote:
Toyota is becoming the biggest automaker in the world (or something like
that) very soon. I think because they have built and mass produced cheap
hybrids that work. I think GM is losing money because they are still
building clunky gas guzzleing SUVs that no one wants to buy. Thoughts?
Yup, that's the stereotype, all right :) Why would we discuss that?
The fact is, GM moves in mysterious ways. Only Nixon could go to China,
and only GM could build the EV1. By going "All In" when they decided to
build an EV, they made Toyota's RAV4 adaptation look cheap. Their emerging
plays in the hybrid market are equally eccentric, risky and bold. If you
don't know what they are, might I suggest you find out before writing off
GM.
Robert
_________________________________________________________________
Dont waste time standing in linetry shopping online. Visit Sympatico / MSN
Shopping today! http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The numbers suggest that Toyota is growing and thriving, while GM is
experiencing financial difficulty. However, I don't think it's accurate to say
that hybrids (or any other single issue) explain(s) why. This is something
which doesn't really admit of a quick, one-sentence answer.
And I'm not sure it matters. As I see it, what matters is whether - 5 years
from now - Jane Average can walk into an auto dealership, make a down
payment, and drive out in a BEV or at least a PHEV. I have my doubts that
it will really happen. Certainly GM's record (to name only one company) is
not a good one.
If it does, I don't know about you, but I'll be celebrating. I'm not too
concerned with whether it's Toyota, GM, Nissan, Ford, or for that matter
General Electric or Zenn or Phoenix which makes it happen, just as long as
>someone< does.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
a 240 v gfci measures the diff . between the magnetic field caused when the
current in one leg of the 249v is different . they do this by a donut (coil of
wire ) which they pass one conductor thru north to south and the other south to
north . with NO neutral wire . you can use a grounding wire and one is
required . with the current equal they resultant field is 0 but if there is a
fault in one phase then the field result goes either = or - and the circuit is
opened . so if you use a 240v gfci remember that you do not use the neutral
(white wire ) as it is a grounded conductor and it will trip the circuit . and
while the cost is higher it is not prohibitive .
the N>E>C> 1st priority is safety of people and then the building . not cost
and certainly not convince .
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Burleson<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:34 PM
Subject: GFCI Charging
FYI, ground-fault circuit interrupters (GFCI) are available in the US in
220/240V configurations, but they are significantly more expensive than
the 110/120V variety.
They are required for use with portable hot tubs and similar wet
environments, but not for "portable equipment" such as my shop
compressor, plasma cutter, or welders.
I would imagine that an electric car is by definition "portable" but
assuming that national electrical code is implemented on the basis of
sensibility or sanity may be assuming too much. The code does, after
all, originate at a national level!
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon: There were up to 32 incidences reported (per year) for tank fires...
even more for filling cans. Considering the relative obscurity of the data
collection agency, that's a fair number. For cars it usually happens when
the person gets back into their car, then gets out to remove the nozzle.
I first saw it in the news when they started putting the ground strips on
pumps. Odd that it wasn't reported earlier, but you are correct that it's
not a lot of incidents.
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> A few years ago when an EV did burn up in someone's garage there was a lot
> of concern on this list that the incident was overplayed in the news, so
> lets be fair and admit that it is very rare to have a fire event at a gas
> station. Even if it was a common event it would be more fair to compare
it
> to any fire that was caused by faulty electrical wiring as we claim that
one
> of the plusses of EV's is that the charging infrastructure is already in
> place. Essentially any building with an outlet is equivalent to a gas
> station for us.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I respectfully disagree with your assertion that Ken's loss is not as bad
because there are now more suppliers and it would have been worse in the
past. I feel his loss to the industry still has as deep an impact. Many
newcomers in the business do not have Ken's expertise which partly came from
an engineering degree and partly from hands on experience. There is not as
much of that out there now. When the EV parts industry completely turns into
a Wal-Mart type business you will totally understand what I mean. Thankfully
that will not happen very too soon.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: KTA Services no longer sells to hobbyists
On 24 Jan 2007 at 16:27, JS wrote:
I assumed that KTA was the biz for sale on e-bay - 300069969932
That looks like Rick Doran's Gorilla Vehicles. I think he's been trying
to sell
it for years, but I might be thinking of someone else.
If it be true that Ken Koch is slowing down or closing down, it's a pity.
Twenty years ago, he was one of a very few serving EV hobbyists. Today,
though the market is far from saturated, we're fortunate to have a larger
number of EV parts suppliers. I certainly wouldn't say "Ken won't be
missed," because his experience and expertise are valuable. But if he
shuts
down now, it's not as great a loss as it would have been in those days.
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--- Begin Message ---
peter what state are you in ??? I have a masters lic in minnesota north dokota
and wisc . and I had a reg journeymans lic in tex . before I moved north . I
belive every work in this email you wrote but ur state is really backword !!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
> We're getting off topic here, but I might mention that the US differences
> are not that wide any more, if they ever were. It's rare today to
> encounter
> 120v only residential service. When you do it's an ancient installation
> in
> a home purchased 20 or more years ago, before mortgage lenders and
> insurance
> carriers started insisting on updates to "systems." I doubt that any home
> sale would go through today without an upgrade of such a system.
I just bought a house 6 months ago with 120V only service. Nobody blinked
an eye and the inspector didn't care about the service size. Nor did the
bank/insurance company.
In fact, I bought a house a little over a year ago that had most of the
outlets ungrounded (they were 3 prong, but only two conductor wiring).
The inspector noted this, but the bank didn't care, nor did the insurance
company.
I fixed most of them myself before I rented it, but just for my own peace
of mind.
Personally I don't see why an insurance company, or bank, would care that
a home doesn't have 220V service. Seems to me they would think it was
safer.
> Also, here in the states code requires GFIs for outside 120v recepts.
Only on new construction. All but my newest house came with outside
outlets without GFCI protection. In fact two of them didn't even have it
in the kitchens and bathrooms.
Again, nobody cared and the inspector only notes if the GFCI works...when
it's installed. If it's not installed, that part of the check list just
says NA.
FWIW the newest house (12 years old) has a 220V outside outlet (sauna?)
but it's not GCFI, at least not that I can tell.
Some states might be more picky about this, but obviously not all of them.
The moral is, check before you plug in your EV, or buy that older home.
If you care about GFCI or service panel size, make it a condition of the
sale.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First of all I am not the one to be advising you on battery types that far
exceed the cost of the conversion. Most of my customers can not afford them
so I have not gotten involved with them yet. There are several people on
this list who have used nickel metal hydride, nicads and lithiums. They
should speak up and give you advice.
We used a single 9" Advanced DC motor in the Land Rover. We originally had
a Curtis 144 volt, 500 amp controller. We then went to a Raptor 1200, then a
T-Rex, then a predecessor of the Zilla. It was 1400 amps as I remember. We
originally ran 144 volts of a group 31 GNB EVolyte batteries that they no
longer make. They were one of the earlier AGMs. We then went to the
prototype Group 31 Optimas. We first ran 192 volts. At Moab we had 240 volts
but due to a failed controller we went to two strings at 120 volts. This was
prior to the Zilla predecessor. Boy, you are making me try to remember a lot
of changes. I believe at the San Francisco Clean Air Road Rally in 1996 we
ran two strings at 144 volts of the GNB EVolytes with the Curtis and were
able to do 50 miles. Not too bad for a two thousand plus vehicle with the
aerodynamics of a barn door and huge traction tires with the rolling
resistance of a soggy donut.
For regen we later put on a Delco 100 amp truck alternator type 27 SI
which I had extra windings installed and isolated the ground as well as
installing a much higher amp diode bank. You need too put the air
conditioning magnetic clutch on the motor. In free wheel there is minimal
drag. When you full field the alternator through either the switch on the
brake light or one on the dash I would get up to 20 amps at n240 volts into
the 192 volt stack. That is almost 5 kw. That would slow down this two ton
plus beast when going down a 6 to 10 percent grade from up on the mountain
in Jerome, Arizona, the birthplace of NEDRA. I hope this answers some of
your questions. I still find it bizarre that after more than ten years no
one else has discovered the ultimate thrill of electric four wheeling. We
also used it for land clearing and pulling stumps here in Washington.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "xx xx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Electric "Jeep", Is this project feasable?
Thanks for the reply. Your Rover was one of the
vehicles I've seen that made me think my Jeep might be
possible.
I
would highly recommend that you keep your
transmission.
I was afraid of this. I was hoping to drop the trans
to save weight, and because my trans is an auto so
I'll have to get a manual, but that's not a big
problem.
You will need to
carry a lot of battery weight to get your desired
range. The range would be
very doable with extremely expensive batteries.
Can you be more specific? Battery type, quantity, and
cost?
I'd like more info about your Rover. What's it weigh,
what motor are you using, what kind of range do you
get, etc. I see you also use a generator as a range
extender, something I've also considered.
Also I see that you use an alternator for regen, which
I also considered essential for a heavy off roader.
What's the capacity of that alternator? Are you using
an A/C type drive clutch to disengage the belt when
not needed? How much power do you think the pulleys
cost you when disengaged?
Maybe you have a page which describes all this but I
couldn't find it.
Thanks,
John
____________________________________________________________________________________
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(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
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--- Begin Message ---
you are correct , I did not catch the gels but wont the voltage tester under
load work for these . ? we have very few new systems you would be shocked to
find out the equipment we use !! and we built the stuff for outer space !!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Stockton<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:51 PM
Subject: RE: Testing the pack
FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
> there is a standard test set for checking batteries after
> full charge cycle . another method is to charge a full cycle
> then check specfic gravity keep a record and you will be
> able to chart the life of your batteries
Something that Don didn't state and you might not be aware of if you
haven't been following the list for a while is that he is running a
string of DEKA gel batteries. That is, they are sealed and so checking
the s.g., while a very good approach for floodeds, is not an option
here.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is great Roger - thanks.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: January 23, 2007 4:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Testing the pack
Don Cameron wrote:
> I just seem to remember when Jerry or John had a battery go, someone
> suggested "a more accurate" method was to test the batteries after a
> certain load was applied?!?!?
What you're doing seems like a sensible approach to keeping the pack
balanced, but doesn't necessarily reveal which batteries might be lower in
capacity than others.
By waiting many hours after charge completes, you are ensuring that the
open-circuit voltage has settled and will be representative of the SOC of
each battery. Topping up the low ones brings them to a full SOC.
If you note the module voltages immediately or better still, some hours
after driving, but before charging, then the spread in voltages will reveal
the spread in capacity of the modules. If you let them sit many hours
before reading the voltages, then the open circuit voltage is again
representative of the SOC, so lower voltage modules are at a lower SOC.
Since they are all in series, the lower SOC modules must have lower capacity
than the others (since all had the same Ah removed).
This helps you to identify which module is your lowest capacity one, and
therefore might be the one to set your pack capacity based on, or might be
the one to monitor individually while driving.
Testing without a load applied will not reveal batteries that have good
capacity but excessive internal resistance. If you can apply a load to the
batteries and measure the module voltages under load, then you can determine
if a module has more sag/internal resistance than the others.
> On another note, what is a decent way to test the capacity of the
> pack?
I would do a normal drive that should use up about half of the capacity you
think you have, then let the car sit overnight without charging.
Now measure the module voltages to identify the one with the lowest voltage;
this is the weakest battery in the string. Charge the pack normally, and if
desired follow your top off/balancing procedure. Then, connect a load to
the identified weakest battery and discharge it to 1.75V/cell. Ideally the
load would be representative of your normal driving load. Using whatever
means you have available, track the Ah removed (actually track Ah with an
E-Meter, etc., or measure current periodically and note the time at current
so you can integrate the Ah manually, etc.). Finally, recharge that module
fully to the same level as the rest of the pack.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich, thanks for the last paragraph - I knew I could count on you!
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: January 24, 2007 11:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Testing the pack
Testing the pack.
OK
Drive EV into power shop.
Hook up the Pack Cycler to the Battery pack.
Dial in:
Discharge, to LOW batt from Reg trip. Then regulate Lowest voltage ..that
would be 150 Starting open circuit that would be ... Lets see E-meter says
165.
Discharge current set to 50 amps.
Hit enter.
Wait for the screen to redraw and watch the voltage and amp curves.
Note the Kwhr that the first Reg hits at.
record the Amp hours and kwhr that were on the Status line.
End:
Then dial in the taper charge to 191 volts.
Set for Reg controlled taper charge.
Set min amps that charge cycle will terminate at.
Hit Enter to start the charge cycle.
That how I would do it....
OK I think you had some other methods in mind, But that's how we test packs
and Hybrid packs at Manzanita Micro now days.
The shop gets pretty warm when we do the 15.360 Kwhr Valance pack for Kent
Bakke's LioN PiPrius install.
The pack cycler has a PFC50 hacked to Windloader mode, A PFC30 for the grid
charger, a old 486 machine to drive the ADAM modules in RS-485 mode, and a
Few thousand lines of Q-basic code written by Joe Smalley.
Oh it takes about 1.7Kwhr to bring to boil the 5 gallons of water in the HOT
Toolbox load bank.
Oh RTV Silicon won't cure in a high humidity room. I had 5 Charger lids
curing, I lit off the Cycler, and the next day the NOMEX paper had fallen
off the lids.
What?? OH yea.. don't do that when you are boiling water!!
I hate it when that happens!!
What you wanted me to say is"
Run the pack down to a given voltage, Record the Kwhr or the Amphours it
took, or the miles driven. Check to see what you could do last year.
If the same test conditions prevail.. you have a very good check on what
state you batteries are at.
Cold, with 3 months of storgae latency, and a heavier Right foot.. don't do
for a good comparision on Goldie.
I got all the low batt leds off for the frist time since Christmas... that's
a nice start.
I think Goldie needs a set of MK3. That would help in tracking the weak
batteries.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 4:30 PM
Subject: RE: Testing the pack
> I just seem to remember when Jerry or John had a battery go, someone
> suggested "a more accurate" method was to test the batteries after a
certain
> load was applied?!?!?
>
> On another note, what is a decent way to test the capacity of the pack? I
> think I might need to re-program my emeter...
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> Check the EVDL Archives:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
>
> Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
>
> Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: January 23, 2007 1:16 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Testing the pack
>
> Don Cameron wrote:
> > Every couple of months I check my pack to see if any batteries are low.
> > Here is what I do:
> >
> > I charge my pack
> > Wait 24 hours
> > Measure each battery voltage
> > Supplemental charge the low ones.
> >
> > I get the feeling, after readying a few posts about dead packs, that
> > this procedure is wrong. Can anyone please correct me?
>
> Sounds reasonable to me. Why do you think there is something wrong with
it?
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt, I have individual lines going to each battery. This was in
anticipation of installing Lee Hart's battery balancer, but I have not yet
got around to building it. Right now I just use a **very** good 12V charger
that is design (properly) for Gels, AGMs and flooded batteries (it is also
temp compensated). The charger is from Interacter.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Kenigson
Sent: January 24, 2007 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Testing the pack
This is a *little* bit off of the subject, but here's another newb
question: How are you doing supplemental charging? Should I get an
external charger for just such a need? When I do supplemental charging
should the battery be isolated from the pack or can I just hook up the
charger to the batt with all the other wiring still in place.
Sorry for questions I might be able to find by searching the archives. I've
found it difficult to answer the simplest questions that way, although for
complex questions, the archives rock! Anyway, I feel like I'm slowly
catching on as I am well into ruining my first pack (although it was in
pretty bad shape when I got it, anyway, so I don't feel too bad about
learning the hard way).
Matt K.
> Hi all,
> >
> > You will have to forgive me for asking a basic question. I have
> searched
> > around, but have not really got a clear understanding.
> >
> > Every couple of months I check my pack to see if any batteries are low.
> > Here is what I do:
> >
> > I charge my pack
> > Wait 24 hours
> > Measure each battery voltage
> > Supplemental charge the low ones.
> >
> > I get the feeling, after readying a few posts about dead packs, that
> this
> > procedure is wrong. Can anyone please correct me?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor, thanks for the info. I will test the batteries as you and Roger
describe. Good tip on the Zener regs. Right now, it is not so much the
money thing, it is the time - wow lots going on....
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: January 24, 2007 1:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Testing the pack
Don,
Testing the batteries _before_ charging brings the bad ones out more easily.
I have had batteries that looked OK and took a charge, but after some
discharging suddenly plummeted to low voltage (cell reversal).
Testing them with a known load ( does not need to be huge - just 50 to 100A
per battery will tell you within seconds if a battery is healthy and has a
decent charge still left.
Noting down the voltage after a (fixed) amount of seconds will give you a
clear idea about their SOC and if you need to supplement their charge.
I just finished this procedure last weekend, as I have not finished my
balancer and last Friday I noticed my pack dropping more than I expected.
Well, what do you know - one battery was completely dead and eagerly took an
overnight individual charge, after which I slowly charged the entire pack at
only 2.5A, so that any battery which was out of balance (like the one I just
charged) would not vent but just get a constant charge through it - any cell
imbalance would also be reduced this way.
By the end of the slow charge, this one battery was going up in its voltage
to about 16.2V but still did not vent due to low current.
Once other batteries were also getting full and rose to the average 14.8V I
was charging to, all but two started coming to the same end voltage. Two
stayed around 13V still, so they were also low.
while I kept the pack charger slowly going at 1A and slowly tapering, I
charged these two individually with a 14.8V supply until the current dropped
to below 0.5A.
So, yes - you can charge and measure (for example near the end of the charge
procedure) if there are low batteries and charge these by hand.
If that gets too tedious, I recommend a balancer, the easiest one is Lee's
zener regs.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 1:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Testing the pack
Don Cameron wrote:
> Every couple of months I check my pack to see if any batteries are low.
> Here is what I do:
>
> I charge my pack
> Wait 24 hours
> Measure each battery voltage
> Supplemental charge the low ones.
>
> I get the feeling, after readying a few posts about dead packs, that
> this procedure is wrong. Can anyone please correct me?
Sounds reasonable to me. Why do you think there is something wrong with it?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
