EV Digest 6341
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) OT - State of the Union Message
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: KTA Services no longer sells to hobbyists
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Curtis 1221R regen controller wiring diagram
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Toyota vs GM
by John Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: gas station fires??? (was Re: Battery Monitor Design)
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: KTA Services no longer sells to hobbyists
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Toyota vs GM
by Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) LED, HID, and other conservative lights?
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Electric "Jeep", Is this project feasable?
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights?
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Using Vortex Tubes for air conditioning/heating let's keep
this safe!
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery Monitor Design
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) repair of controller, Re: Curtis 1221R regen controller wiring diagram
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Did anyone, besides myself, hear President Bush spout the General
Motors, party line? "We need Government Moneys so we can develop
battery technology." I believe that they will get their play money. I
do not believe they will make an electric car.
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:29 PM 1/24/2007, jerryd wrote:
What do you need to do that an E-10, ect, can't
at a much lower conversion, running cost? What top speed??
I don't consider a 700lb payload capacity to even BE a truck. More
of a car with a big trunk.
Top speed - I will need to be able to do 60-65 at times since I live
just off a highway, and can't get anywhere without using it.
Assuming you want real power for lower amounts
of money, 4 motors combined into a Contactor Controller will
get you there. Since you are going to be low powered for the
weight, your acceleration is really digital, on or off so E
controller really doesn't give you much, especially for the
price. You get 3 speeds S/P the motors, a resistor speed
that if you keep the trans, should be all you need, taking 3
DPDT, 2 SPST. Just let the motors wind out before you switch
to the next step gives you a smooth acceleration, like
shifting a gear, only smoother.
Actually, that sounds like an interesting idea.
4 in series with resistor
4 in series
2x2 series/parallel
4 in parallel
Combined with a 6 speed transmission.
For another DPDT contactor, you could add a 1/2 pack voltage
option to the 4 in series.
If you still want an E controller, try 2
Navitas TSE600-96, $850 each, using 2 packs of 96vdc nom
T125's driving 4 D+D ES21's/A89's,$475-50lbs each, 2 motors
per controller which supports series/parallel like the Zilla
So, drop the voltage to 96 from 120 (curtis), but up the Amps to 600
(for how long?).
The A89 seems to be a lot less motor than the L91.
But let's get back to your problem. Much
cheaper is find a El Camino, Ranchro body and replace the
cab, bed with it, dropping weight and better aero.
ooohh, a red neck special.
Bed is too small though. I frequently use the full 8' bed, and need
the 4' between wheels for plywood loads.
(ugly as sin as well.)
With the Ford chassis, an aero body and the
above 4 motors, CC or TSE600 controllers and 2 96vdc packs
of T125's and then you might really have something at a much
lower cost. But doing a stock energy pig like a F250 is
starting with 2.5 strikes against you.
I never said I wouldn't do any Aero mods, but turning it into a car
won't help either.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
I respectfully disagree with your assertion that Ken's loss is not as bad
because there are now more suppliers and it would have been worse in the
past. I feel his loss to the industry still has as deep an impact. Many
newcomers in the business do not have Ken's expertise which partly came
from
an engineering degree and partly from hands on experience. There is not as
much of that out there now. When the EV parts industry completely turns
into
a Wal-Mart type business you will totally understand what I mean.
Thankfully
that will not happen very too soon.
I certainly agree with Rod here in that the EV industry has lost a person of
much experience that was always happy to help in any way possible.
Ken's input will definitely be missed.
It is not an easy job and you really have to love it.
After having done EV tech support, sales, repairs, conversions, and
modifications for a variety of EV companies (including Roderick's
evparts.com), I am intimately familiar with the long learning curve and
constantly changing technology and product offerings.
It takes a while and you really gotta like it.
No engineering degree here. I am just a hack :^D
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy
Awards® http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay, for a Heavy Truck
For UVE's calc, Non-aero small truck, 36 sq ft frontal area.
Using a 2007 (not likely!) F250 SuperCab LongBed, 5.4L V8. 5856 lb
base weight.
(I've been having trouble finding this kind of info on older
models.)
Starting out with a Z2K and Dual 11" motors would be nice, but is
awfully expensive, and there is a hefty lead time. ($4500 + 2 * $2950) =
$10,400.
I was thinking of a 240V pack using 6V golf cart batteries.
We've been discussing alternate configurations using some Curtis 1221C
controllers.
Curtis 1221C + ADC L91-4003, $975 + $840. Thats 400A (max, I know,
derate for continuous) at 120V.
One suggestion was to use ADC X91-4001 motors for $855 instead.
Hmm, but the KTA page shows those as lower HP both peak and
continuous? It also shows the L91's as having dual shafts?
So, sticking with the L91's for now.
I was thinking of a configuration of 2 Curtis 1221C's, each with it's own
motor. That's not enough power for accelerating such a heavy
vehicle though.
So, add a pair of L91's using a simple contactor controller.
Say, configure the battery pack as a 120V pack of buddy pairs. (same
amount of battery as the 240V pack)
Then when you need "turbo boost" acceleration, you use
contactors to put the 2 boost motors in series or parallel on the
pack. Gives you 2 boost speeds, and keeps the pack
balanced.
Cost here is (2 * 975) + (4 * 840) = $5310 about 1/2 the cost of the
(MUCH NICER) Z2K setup.
Advantages: All parts available quickly, even if something fails, you can
continue driving with less power.
Disadvantages: Complexity, Jerky boost acceleration, still may not be
good acceleration.
Now, as an added refinement/complexity, if you want to prevent motor
over-heating while cruising at speed, you could use Yet More contactors
to switch the boost motors to be paralleled with the curtis motors. (and
no, they would NOT also be directly connected to the pack at that time,
sheesh.) This would result in each Curtis controller driving 2
paralleled motors. Hopefully the same overall power, but
distributed over 2 motors to improve cooling.
Another variation would be to replace the pair of Curtis controllers with
a Z1K-HV.
Advantage: Higher current capability, better controller, automatic S/P
switching.
Disadvantage: $600 more, and you are back to the very long lead time (if
available at all).
Of course, once you switch to a single controller, using a
FB1-4001A at $1485 is cheaper than a pair of
L91's.
But a Z1K with S/P switching of a pair of FB1-4001A's may not have enough
accel?
Cost = $2550 + (2 * 1485) = $5520.
So is similar to the original dual Curtis setup with 4 motors, but you
loose the "turbo boost" option.
I'm just trying to see all the options. Moving this heavy a truck
is a non-trivial exercise.
--
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I
dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Curtis 1221R regen controller wiring diagram
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Robert,
I have 3 1221R controllers (2 84V in use at 88 to 96V and 1 120V with
lots of blown FETs & diodes to deal with some time) and the paper copy of
the manual, so I could help you with that tonight when I am home after
work.
Do you have the 10-position Mini-fit Jr. connector shell and contacts
that mates with the socket on this controller?
If you can't find anyone else to fix them, I can have a go at it. I just
fixed a 1231C, and am fixing a 1221 for Bob Rice, so have some of the
oddball parts.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, here is another viewpoint.
I have lived and worked on many homes over my years(standard Disclaimer
applies) even wired 4 of them and Recently I bought a new home, had it
built and paid extra for a panel upgrade, 100A service dropped in the
garage and the extra plugs and lighting. ( I have never been more
disappointed)
At least in this area houses in the 70's,80's and early 90's all had #12
as a minimum wire size. This meant 20A 115V circuits.
Even after all my belly achaing and paying upcharges I am very
dissasified with the wiring in my new home. Sure it looks like a lot of
breakers but when you discount all the required by law GFI seperate
breakers dedicated to the kitchen and bath only, you are left with 1
breaker covering all ceiling lights and non-gfi plugs in the kitchen, Tv
room and garage (Thank God I had a sub panel dropped) The first time I
plugged in the PFC and turned it up to 5 battery amps (<10A from wall) I
popped that breaker.
I later found that 1 more breaker powers EVERYTHING in the familyroom
and bedroom and back bathroom. When my new Air Conditioner broke and
they wanted $1100 for a PWM driven 1/10 HP condensor fan motor, I
bought a window AC unit. Yeah, right. If I want AC I have to walk thru
and shut off all lights and my computer first.
I knew a lot of electricians in the time i was working on houses and
this type of wireing is legal but unconscionable. The panel is good for
200 Amps but that would be 13 15Amp circuits and there isn't even that
(For those who don't know usually the breaker maxs add up to more than
the master becuase you don't use everthing at once. )
The #14 wire is also just to damn weak and some plugs were not screwed
down tight i think and useing the plugs 2 or 3 times and the wire breaks
off at the back of the plug. 3 failed already and one I will have to
rip out the wall because the @[EMAIL PROTECTED] didn't leave enough to work
with in
the box.
It use to be illegal to use push in on #14 for that reason, that seems
to be ok(legal) now.
To bring this back to EV's, The most current wireing laws have been
severly compromised, at least in this county, in the last 10-15 years.
If EV's and even plug in hybrids do become the norm we could start
having some problems. I would recommend people have a dedicated plug
wired in. If you are luck the panel is on the garage side, this is not
bad. The standard 115V plug in my garage used daily for an EV without
plugging and unplugging the extension cord from it, quit working after 3
months of service limited to 12A max on a 15 amp service. It seems the
rateings are "harbor freight" rateings, ie peak not continous.
Pull to hard on a #14 wire and it becomes #16 really really easy, no
margin for error.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Toyota is becoming the biggest automaker in the world (or something like
that) very soon. I think because they have built and mass produced cheap
hybrids that work.
Perhaps more aggressively than anyone else they tailor the products to the
markets they sell in and they turn over their products frequently. They
sell a lot of exceptionally boring cars, but at least they're not boring
*and* stale.
The Prius is not a big volume seller worldwide, sells almost none outside
the US (for that matter, it's long been a source of embarrassment to Toyota
that the Lexus brand has done so little outside the States), and they're
certainly not making much if any money off the thing. More mind-share than
numbers.
I think GM is losing money because they are still
building clunky gas guzzleing SUVs that no one wants to buy. Thoughts?
As opposed to gas-guzzling SUVs that people want to buy, like the LX470,
Land Cruiser, 4Runner, etc? The SUV market isn't going away, but it's a
very fragmented and far more competitive market, no longer the exclusive
province of cheaply-made high-margin adaptations of Detroit pickups.
GM is losing money because they had two entire decades of incompetent
project planners that shipped cheesy junk like the Reatta and the Aztek and
several generations of bread-and-butter sedans that were never better than
fourth-best in their segment, and go-along-to-get-along management that
signed off on all that junk year after year. You can sell a lot of cars to
rental fleets but you can never make real money doing it.
The fact is, GM moves in mysterious ways. Only Nixon could go to China,
and only GM could build the EV1. By going "All In" when they decided to
build an EV, they made Toyota's RAV4 adaptation look cheap.
GM has an eighty-plus-year history of developing new and interesting
technology (or new and interesting applications of a technology), often
shooting themselves in the foot by cheapening the implementation thereof,
and regularly abandoning it just before commercial maturity.
At GM (as with many highly political organizations) it seems that any
adventuresome or expensive development needs an executive sponsor, and the
fortunes of the project rise and fall with the fortunes of its sponsor. So
it goes with Stempel and the EV1.
John.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now gas powered cars burning up along the side of the rode is a
whole different story. We seem to have several of those events a
year here in the Portland area.
Actually, our morning traffic report isn't complete without at least
one vehicle fire A DAY.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arizona.
FWIW I looked at one house here about 6 years ago that still had Knob and
Tubing wiring. That one was definitely out because that is one thing the
VA definitely cares about. They don't care about service panel size (at
least not around here) but you can NOT get a VA loan on a house with knob
and tubing.
> peter what state are you in ??? I have a masters lic in minnesota north
> dokota and wisc . and I had a reg journeymans lic in tex . before I moved
> north . I belive every work in this email you wrote but ur state is
> really backword !!!!!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:47 PM
> Subject: Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
>
>
>
> > We're getting off topic here, but I might mention that the US
> differences
> > are not that wide any more, if they ever were. It's rare today to
> > encounter
> > 120v only residential service. When you do it's an ancient
> installation
> > in
> > a home purchased 20 or more years ago, before mortgage lenders and
> > insurance
> > carriers started insisting on updates to "systems." I doubt that any
> home
> > sale would go through today without an upgrade of such a system.
>
> I just bought a house 6 months ago with 120V only service. Nobody
> blinked
> an eye and the inspector didn't care about the service size. Nor did the
> bank/insurance company.
> In fact, I bought a house a little over a year ago that had most of the
> outlets ungrounded (they were 3 prong, but only two conductor wiring).
> The inspector noted this, but the bank didn't care, nor did the
> insurance
> company.
> I fixed most of them myself before I rented it, but just for my own
> peace
> of mind.
>
> Personally I don't see why an insurance company, or bank, would care
> that
> a home doesn't have 220V service. Seems to me they would think it was
> safer.
>
> > Also, here in the states code requires GFIs for outside 120v recepts.
>
> Only on new construction. All but my newest house came with outside
> outlets without GFCI protection. In fact two of them didn't even have
> it
> in the kitchens and bathrooms.
> Again, nobody cared and the inspector only notes if the GFCI
> works...when
> it's installed. If it's not installed, that part of the check list just
> says NA.
>
> FWIW the newest house (12 years old) has a 220V outside outlet (sauna?)
> but it's not GCFI, at least not that I can tell.
>
> Some states might be more picky about this, but obviously not all of
> them.
>
> The moral is, check before you plug in your EV, or buy that older home.
> If you care about GFCI or service panel size, make it a condition of the
> sale.
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
> I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't get me wrong, Ken will be missed. He has tremendous expertise and there
are probably hundreds (or thousands) of EVs on the road thanks to his support.
Twenty years ago, when I was tinkering with a C-car and wondering what I could
do
to get back on the freeways, I went looking for EV component suppliers. I
found
Ken, Electro Automotive, a bit later Bob Batson and his EVs of America, and ...
and ... and ...
I'm thinking ...
Somebody help me out here. Who else offered EV components to the hobbyist in
1987?
There were a few operations that catered mostly to west coast EVers, such as Ed
Rannberg's Eyeball Engineering. But for those of us in the East or Midwest,
looking for someone we could call for expert help and high quality parts, in
the late
1980s, the above 3 companies were just about it.
Today there really are more vendors. The number of "major" (if I may use that
word
;-) suppliers has about doubled. In the last 15 years or so we've seen the
rise of
Randy Holmquist's CanEV, EVParts.com, Metric Mind, and several relatively small
vendors (some of which are operated by members of this list). We now have
specialized DC motor suppliers such as Warfield.
As an aside, the component selection is much better today too. Back then, for
DC
motor controllers, we had PMC/Curtis, and that was about all. Willey had
stopped
building controllers by then. Russco made a brief appearance, then vanished.
Today we have the Zilla, Alltrax, and Zapi. Curtis is still plugging along
(bad pun,
sorry) and there are a few smaller operations.
For DC motors, we could choose Prestolite. Once in a while you'd find GE or
perhaps Baldor available to hobbyists, but I think those were mostly surplus
motors. Some folks still used aircraft generators, and the "China Motor" made
a
brief appearance. Today we have ADC, WarP, and Lemco DC motors rather widely
available. (And Kostov? Not sure about them.)
I don't know of >any< off the shelf AC drives at all that were offered to
hobbyists
then. Now we can choose from at least 4 brands (MES-DEA, Siemens, Brusa,
and Solectria).
Chargers? Back then we had Lester and, along with a few other boat anchors,
and
that was about it. K&W came along with a lightweight onboard charger in the
late
1980s or early 1990s, IIRC. Today we can choose from Russco, Manzanita, Zivan,
Delta-Q, Solectria, and Brusa chargers.
For 12v accessory power, most of us used marine batteries. DC:DC converters
for
road EVs were scarce. They may have been around earlier, but the first I heard
of
them was about 1988. The Todd chargers weren't widely adopted until the early
to
mid '90s. In the midvoltage ranges we now have Sevcon and Curtis. Iota has
taken
Todd's place. Vicor modules are an option. Solectria and Brusa supply high
voltage DC:DCs. Siemens AC systems often have them built in.
Back to vendors and to Ken Koch. I maintain that if he'd bailed 20 years ago,
he
would have cut the number of major EV component suppliers by one-third. Today
I'd guess that it's more like 15% - though I certainly could be wrong.
A lot of us will miss Ken's participation, but I don't think it's the disaster
it would
have been back in 1987. I don't speak for him, but I wouldn't be surprised if
Ken
feels that way too, that this is a good time to pass the torch. And after
dropping
this many EV hobbyists into drivers' seats, maybe he thinks he's earned his
retirement. I for one don't begrudge him that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Gamber wrote:
Toyota is becoming the biggest automaker in the world (or something
like that) very soon. I think because they have built and mass
produced cheap hybrids that work. I think GM is losing money because
they are still building clunky gas guzzleing SUVs that no one wants to
buy. Thoughts?
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t waste time standing in line—try shopping online. Visit Sympatico
/ MSN Shopping today! http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
Vega vs Corolla
Chevette vs Yaris
trash vs quality
Need I say more?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are most of you using LED lights to minimize electrical draw, or just
working with whatever came in your glider? Retro-reflective tape only
goes so far -- we all need turn signals and such?
As I nursed my charge-handicapped daily driver home in the dark, with
first dim white, then dim yellow, I was thinking about my eventual
electric or hybrid, and wondering how significant headlight drains are
to overall range... and whether the snazzy new HID lamps are more
conservative in electrical usage, after the ballast fires.
Randii (driving by Braille)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>> ...huge traction tires with the rolling resistance of a soggy donut.
GREAT image! :D
>> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>> I still find it bizarre that after more than ten years no one else
has
>> discovered the ultimate thrill of electric four wheeling.
I posted a message on this a bit earlier, but there are electric
advances in the extreme rock-crawling competition world.... I'll
re-forward the message because it speaks to one of my other major
hobbies.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Randii,
Well, as an example my little Mini el uses a 2.5KW motor. That will
be it's continuous rating. At startup or hill climbing the motor
could be drawing much more than that. At cruise it's probably pulling
a bit less.
Still, it's rating is 2500W. The standard Automotive light bulb is
20W. So, compared to the actual power consumption of the rest of the
car it's pretty minimal. Does it affect the range etc? Of course -
but very very minimally. Now, if you ask me if LEDs are a good idea
I'd have to say yes. They last longer and are just less hassle. I've
never had an LED light go on me (one of my previous cars had some)
but you do have to pay a significant premium for them. I will
probably go to LED lights for the rear and indicator bulbs as the
current ones break. I find them slightly brighter.
Now if you were asking about power efficient heating I'd really want
it! I've got two 400W heaters in the el and the power drain is so
large with both on (800W) that when I step on the accelerator the
second 400W coil is turned off to prevent huge current drain on the
batteries. Which means I only stay toastie warm in traffic....
Nikki.
DC [EMAIL
PROTECTED])¢Ë\¢{Z{~Û×^g¬±¨ ~æjÛ.r¬jvµ§!y×âæ¯qªÝ 3 ~æjÛbâ²Û¶Èì¹çn¢yriÇ ¦ÓË StÈ*.®,¶)à±Ø¬¦V²¶¬ë,j²¢êæj)i®+jh¬lzÛh±éÝ<°51LãKa©Ý籧cºËbMessage-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 02:57:43 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Using Vortex Tubes for air conditioning/heating let's keep
this safe!
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Chill Bruce (pun intended)
First of all Exair lists the 3200 series specifically for producing
maximum cooling power. They don't say anything about "spot" cooling.
BTUs are BTUs, the nice thing about cold gases is that they are easy to
difuse.
In fact, adding a muffler to quiet it down would probably do a nice job of
helping tp difuse the gas.
Secondly, I see no problem with using C02, or nitrogen for that matter.
Nitrogen is already the main component in Air and it's not particularly
poisonous and neither is CO2. Both gases are safe unless the
concentration gets so high that there isn't enough O2 left. If you difuse
the cold gas with an outside air source, then you won't have any
significant build up of gases.
Since when did CO2 become a controlled substance? I breath the stuff out,
do I need a license to do that now? Do I have to register my soda pop?
Until they start sequestering CO2, it seems to me that if I don't buy it
and use it, it will just end up in the atmosphere anyway.
As has been said many times, EVs require much less cooling than ICEs. The
main question I have is "How much less"?
I'm just exploring alternatives.
> Don't use CO2. Period. Don't use Liquid Nitrogen
> Period.
> If you insist on using these Vortex tubes which are
> specified by the Manufacturer for spot cooling use air
> only. Period.
>
> And if you insist on using these without using air
> please write a Last Will and Testament specifying me
> as your beneficiary as you will suffocate and die
> using this in an enclosed space.
> Also please be aware CO2 while cheap is also an
> environmentally control substance that for some reason
> contributes to global warming or so I've heard on this
> list.
> Also 3.4K btu is far cry from my cars present AC unit
> which doesn't work to well. Also it has been stated
> many times this will not work as an AC unit as it is
> meant as a spot cooler. Also 3.4 btu of how much sq
> area. I've seen these in use as industrial chiller to
> offset heat on a glass mask to prevent it from
> changing size. The mask was 8 by 8 inches being heated
> by uv light. It barely worked a lot of times so we had
> to constantly monitor the sized being produce on to
> the silicon wafers. We were make e-proms.
>
>
> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> >> Hmm, an interesting though. Given that they
>> aren't efficient, can they
>> >> at
>> >> least be light weight?
>> >> For example, if we had an onboard tank of
>> compressed air (refilled while
>> >> charging) and a vortex tube, how large would the
>> tank need to be to
>> >> store
>> >> enough air for cooling the vehicle for say 20
>> minutes?
>> >
>> > I had to register with Exair to get the specs on
>> their tubes -
>> >
>> > A large Vortex tube, model 3250, uses between 50
>> and 150 SCFM at 80 to 100
>> > PSI. A normal alum scuba tank contains 80 cu ft
>> (at 3000 PSI), so the air
>> > in the tank would be consumed by the 3250 Vortex
>> (using an average of 100
>> > SCFM) in 30 min.
>>
>> Hmm, I just went to:
>> http://www.exair.com/vortextube/vt_page.htm and
>> selected "Selecting a Vortex Tube" on the left side.
>> No registration
>> needed.
>>
>> According to the info there, a 3250 consuming 50
>> SCFM would produce 3400
>> btu/hr of cooling.
>> The only thing I can't figure out is how much
>> cooling does an EV need? Is
>> 3400 btu/hr enough?
>>
>> At any rate, that's a lot of air. I was kinda
>> hoping a 5lb CO2 tank might
>> be enough ('cause CO2 is cheap and readily
>> available).
>> Perhaps it would work in a really small vehicle
>> (Sparrow or smaller)
>>
>> It might be fun to test. CO2 has the advantage of
>> coming out of the tank
>> really cold, so you have the phase change cooling as
>> well as the vortex
>> cooling. From what I'm reading, using cold input
>> gas reduces the output
>> temp. Someone was actually able to produce liquid
>> air by cascading vortex
>> tubes.
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
>> lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically
>> authorizing me to do whatever I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you
>> agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
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>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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legalistic signature is void.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:35:20 -0600
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Monitor Design
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
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Yeah that's one form of getting power for the op-amps isolated from the
frame ground without tapping the pack voltage.
What Lee brings up is isolation voltage. The first one you list I
didn't even see an isolation voltage. The second lists 1KVDC. This
means that if you were to have a +12v source and a frame ground for
input, and tied the output's - terminal to a point 1000V above the input
ground, the insulation could break down, current would flow across it
and damage the device and note this also creates a current path from
battery to frame ground. Basically there's a small transformer in there
with thin wire and thin insulation and it can arc over if there is a
very large voltage differential between the input and output grounds.
There are actually many factors determining when insulation fails and
it's hard to describe in simple terms. Continuous vs only brief
exposure to a high voltage, age, temperature, dV/dT rate of the high
voltage all have very significant effects on where insulation will
fail. In a sense the rating is only a vague suggestion and it's hard to
be sure a 2KV-rated isolation would actually be stronger than a
1KV-rated isolation if they come from different mfgs. For one, one mfg
could say their part withstands 1KV continuously where another mfg says
2KV for 5 sec and there's no telling if the second part is actually better.
Danny
Tim Wong wrote:
>Hi Lee -
>
>I talked to another evlist member, and he suggested using a small 12V-12V
>DC/DC converter on the sense boards like this TRC electronics number
>SUCS31212C:
>
>http://www.trcelectronics.com/Cosel/sucs31212c.shtml
>
>or this C&D converter number NDTD1212C:
>
>http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=NDTD1212Cvirtualkey58010000virtualkey580-NDTD1212C
>
>Is this what you meant by isolating the system? It seems like a nice method
>that I should have thought of, but didn't.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Tim
>
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: repair of controller, Re: Curtis 1221R regen controller wiring diagram
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:39:01 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Lee,
Thanks for your kind offer, I would like to take you up on it.
Only the 120V controller is not working well due to about half the MOSFETs
and diodes being blown, that I could see when I got the case off. It was
actually still functioning when I removed it from the car, but with much
less current output as one would expect. (If some people think a healthy
1221 is slow.......) That is the advantage of detecting the current by the
voltage drop across the MOSFETS - the remaining ones can still live and do a
proportionate amount of work as the control circuitry does not blindly
expect that fewer of them can supply the usual current amount. The fact
that the controller is still "working" suggests to me that there hopefully
is not a lot, or anything else, wrong and it is likely to work normally when
the blown MOSFETs and Diodes are replaced. (I drove the car for a couple of
weeks before getting tired of the in-adequate performance and swapped it out
with the 84V 1221R that had been in the car before.)
I have the MUR2020RG diodes and some better MOSFETS - NTP30N20G 30A 200V -
that I obtained for the repair, and could supply 25 diodes and 20 MOSFETs.
What I am lacking is the time and experience, and consequently, somewhat
lacking the courage to plunge in and tackle this work I didn't do before,
particularly considering the potting around the 10-pin connector, and the
way the boards are tied together.
This was a rebuilt 1221R that Gorilla vehicles had sold me. What I don't
understand is why it failed. It was mounted on a massive 1/4" thick
aluminum plate with the large Curtis 1231 heat sink, with the heat sink side
right at the front in the airflow. It never squealed about being hot, or
felt hot, under the hottest summer conditions. The battery pack voltage is
96V, with the regen voltage pot set to minimum and a regen current limit pot
in the car and regen on/off switch used to avoid excessive regen current or
regen with a full pack. The controller failed under light load, while
cruising at 30 mph after less than 10 minutes driving. I only noticed that
the car started to coast down and would not maintain speed (no bang or
exciting acceleration). When I got it to the parking lot of the nursing
home I was going to, (with the last part of the distance pushing it) I saw
that the special European 200A fuse was blown. I thought the fuse had
gotten "tired" after all these years and with slightly more current at times
than the original SCR regen controller had provided. I managed to rig a
temporary 100A fuse across the terminal bolts, to return home after the
visit. I didn't even realise there was anything wrong with the controller
as I was driving home very carefully, starting in first gear, etc., to
maintain low current drain with my temporary low value fuse. Once I replaced
the fuse and tried to drive normally, I saw that the controller was "weak"
and I could barely back the car onto the wheel ramps without taking a short
run at it.
Please email me for the arrangements. While I have some loss of confidence
in it after this kind of failure, I have nothing else that could work to
give regen and operate at the higher voltage pushed up by 28 cells of TS
lithium ion 100 A-hr (November 2004 good ones) helping the 8 DCS-75 AGMs.
So I would be very glad to have it working again. Thanks for your offer of
help with this.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Curtis 1221R regen controller wiring diagram
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> I have 3 1221R controllers (2 84V in use at 88 to 96V and 1 120V with
>> lots of blown FETs & diodes to deal with some time) and the paper copy of
>> the manual, so I could help you with that tonight when I am home after
>> work.
>> Do you have the 10-position Mini-fit Jr. connector shell and contacts
>> that mates with the socket on this controller?
>
> If you can't find anyone else to fix them, I can have a go at it. I just
> fixed a 1231C, and am fixing a 1221 for Bob Rice, so have some of the
> oddball parts.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:15:09 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
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> At 01:29 PM 1/24/2007, jerryd wrote:
>> What do you need to do that an E-10, ect, can't
>>at a much lower conversion, running cost? What top speed??
>
> I don't consider a 700lb payload capacity to even BE a truck. More
> of a car with a big trunk.
Well then why on earth are you considering converting an F250? You'll
only end up with the same 700lbs of payload capacity and it will cost a
lot more
I.e. the Gross weight of a F250 Single cab LB is 8800 lbs. Actually you
might end up with LESS than 700lbs payload.
--
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From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 05:41:28 -0500
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi John and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:55:25 -0800
>At 01:29 PM 1/24/2007, jerryd wrote:
>> What do you need to do that an E-10, ect,
>>can't at a much lower conversion, running cost? What top
>speed??
>
>I don't consider a 700lb payload capacity to even BE a
>truck. More of a car with a big trunk.
So you need say, a 2,000lb payload, load plywood?
If so an S/E10 could easily do for you. Just by changing the
rear axle, or maybe just helper springs depending on your
payload needs, stock axle will increase your payload to
whatever you want. S10 wreckers use probably 5 ton rear
axles.
I used the Ewoody to carry 500lbs of plywood just by
using a trailer on my A89 size GE 3.5 hp motor direct
drive!! On the Freedom EV, it's designed to tow a 1,000lb+
payload trailer or another Freedom. Many better ways to
carry a load than a 6-7k lb truck.
So an older stripped S10 long bed pickup should
weigh about 2.6-3k lbs, add 1-2k lb of batts, 300-500lbs of
EV stuff and you should be able to carry 2k lbs at a much
lower cost, aero drag with reasonable range.
>Top speed - I will need to be able to do 60-65 at times
>since I live just off a highway, and can't get anywhere
>without using it.
Then the better aero possibilities are much better in
an S10 glider.
>
>> Assuming you want real power for lower
>>amounts of money, 4 motors combined into a Contactor
>>Controller will get you there. Since you are going to be
>>low powered for the weight, your acceleration is really
>>digital, on or off so E controller really doesn't give you
>>much, especially for the price. You get 3 speeds S/P the
>>motors, a resistor speed that if you keep the trans,
>>should be all you need, taking 3 DPDT, 2 SPST. Just let
>>the motors wind out before you switch to the next step
>>gives you a smooth acceleration, like shifting a gear,
>only smoother.
>
>Actually, that sounds like an interesting idea.
> 4 in series with resistor
> 4 in series
> 2x2 series/parallel
> 4 in parallel
>Combined with a 6 speed transmission.
> For another DPDT contactor, you could add a 1/2 pack
>voltage option to the 4 in series.
And it's at least an 1k amp controller!
I like to keep the pack in one string so easier to
charge though either way fine. I've found over 4 speeds
unnessasary, especially if you have a transmission.
But using 4 motors kind of begs a CC. I'm even
thinking about putting one as an option in the Freedom using
S/P 2 motors, 2 36vdc batt packs giving 3 speeds, a resistor
speed and 2 field weakening speeds, no trans.
>
>> If you still want an E controller, try 2
>>Navitas TSE600-96, $850 each, using 2 packs of 96vdc nom
>>T125's driving 4 D+D ES21's/A89's,$475-50lbs each, 2
>>motors per controller which supports series/parallel like
>the Zilla
>
>So, drop the voltage to 96 from 120 (curtis), but up the
>Amps to 600 (for how long?).
Much longer than a Curtis!! It has 260 amp cont, a
healthy amount and actually puts out 600 amps, unlike the
Curtis that don't do their rating..
>The A89 seems to be a lot less motor than the L91.
Yes somewhat having a smaller com but much less
weight. But don't forget you have 4 of them!! I picked the
D+D ES-31/ L91 for the first Freedom EV and will use 2
ES21's instead for production. With a good blower for extra
cooling, they shouldn't be a problem for you at 1/2 the cost
of L91's.
>
>> But let's get back to your problem. Much
>>cheaper is find a El Camino, Ranchro body and replace the
>>cab, bed with it, dropping weight and better aero.
>
>ooohh, a red neck special.
Heh, a man's got to do what a man has to do :^D I
was thinking of easy ways.
>Bed is too small though. I frequently use the full 8' bed,
>and need the 4' between wheels for plywood loads.
>(ugly as sin as well.)
One could just use cross braces so the ply would be
stacked on top of the wheel wells. Maybe a Dodge Dakota,
ect, might work. Any thoughts on towing a trailer instead
with a powerful but smaller EV? That's how I handle large
loads.
>
>> With the Ford chassis, an aero body and the
>>above 4 motors, CC or TSE600 controllers and 2 96vdc packs
>>of T125's and then you might really have something at a
>>much lower cost. But doing a stock energy pig like a F250
>>is starting with 2.5 strikes against you.
>
>I never said I wouldn't do any Aero mods, but turning it
>into a car won't help either.
Without a real mission discription or more
details, it's hard to guess what will. But the cab is your
biggest aero drag and a fair amount of weight. By replacing
the cab with a lighter, lower, more aero body can increase
range 20%!! Remember you need a lb of batt for every lb of
EV for really long range so every lb you drop, saves you
money, extra battery weight for the same range.
The real way would be using an older mini-truck
chassis with an aero kitcar body towing a 2,000lb payload
trailer!!
Jerry Dycus
>
>--
>John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
>http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
